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Valve and Competitive TF2
posted in News
481
#481
-1 Frags +

As far as deciding class balancing in a 6s format, class limit 1 decided by each team could work, which would naturally be limit one medic and limit one demo

As far as deciding class balancing in a 6s format, class limit 1 decided by each team could work, which would naturally be limit one medic and limit one demo
482
#482
-16 Frags +
figsy@enigma @mana Please ban Demarini everyone will be better off

They said the same thing about Jesus.

[quote=figsy]@enigma @mana Please ban Demarini everyone will be better off[/quote]

They said the same thing about Jesus.
483
#483
0 Frags +
rowrowAs far as deciding class balancing in a 6s format, class limit 1 decided by each team could work, which would naturally be limit one medic and limit one demo

Could you imagine playing a turtle team of 2 Engineers, 2 Heavies, 1 Demo, and 1 Medic?

[quote=rowrow]As far as deciding class balancing in a 6s format, class limit 1 decided by each team could work, which would naturally be limit one medic and limit one demo[/quote]

Could you imagine playing a turtle team of 2 Engineers, 2 Heavies, 1 Demo, and 1 Medic?
484
#484
2 Frags +
DemariniRainmanDemarini stop trying to glorify yourself and your opinion.
It's starting to get pathetic.

Well let me know when it gets pathetic.

At about post #420

[quote=Demarini][quote=Rainman]Demarini stop trying to glorify yourself and your opinion.
It's starting to get pathetic.[/quote]

Well let me know when it gets pathetic.[/quote]

At about post #420
485
#485
6 Frags +

dear fucking god he thinks hes some sort of prophet get him the fuck out

dear fucking god he thinks hes some sort of prophet get him the fuck out
486
#486
7 Frags +
DemariniThe only response to what I said was blatantly biased opinions saying the 6v6 is a better format so Valve will use that one. That's just...childish almost. DIS ONE BETTER. Yes to you...

It's not like we haven't played other formats. Basically every format you can imagine has been played, and 6v6 came out on top as the most competitively viable.

[quote=Demarini]The only response to what I said was blatantly biased opinions saying the 6v6 is a better format so Valve will use that one. That's just...childish almost. DIS ONE BETTER. Yes to you...[/quote]

It's not like we haven't played other formats. Basically every format you can imagine has been played, and 6v6 came out on top as the most competitively viable.
487
#487
-1 Frags +
ComangliarowrowAs far as deciding class balancing in a 6s format, class limit 1 decided by each team could work, which would naturally be limit one medic and limit one demo
Could you imagine playing a turtle team of 2 Engineers, 2 Heavies, 1 Demo, and 1 Medic?

I understand they want all their classes to be viable but the problem is that all the classes are viable, they are just viable only in their own particular little niche. Heavies, engies, and pyros are extremely viable in defending against last pushes, and snipers and spies are good at creating picks in times of desperation. They just completely suck at moving fast enough to capitalize off of 10 second death timers, or people being weak when the medigun heals at 24hps. And that's perfectly fine.

[quote=Comanglia][quote=rowrow]As far as deciding class balancing in a 6s format, class limit 1 decided by each team could work, which would naturally be limit one medic and limit one demo[/quote]

Could you imagine playing a turtle team of 2 Engineers, 2 Heavies, 1 Demo, and 1 Medic?[/quote]

I understand they want all their classes to be viable but the problem is that all the classes [i]are[/i] viable, they are just viable only in their own particular little niche. Heavies, engies, and pyros are extremely viable in defending against last pushes, and snipers and spies are good at creating picks in times of desperation. They just completely suck at moving fast enough to capitalize off of 10 second death timers, or people being weak when the medigun heals at 24hps. And that's perfectly fine.
488
#488
-1 Frags +
ComangliarowrowAs far as deciding class balancing in a 6s format, class limit 1 decided by each team could work, which would naturally be limit one medic and limit one demo
Could you imagine playing a turtle team of 2 Engineers, 2 Heavies, 1 Demo, and 1 Medic?

Depends on the map and unlocks. I feel valve should direct more attention to accumulating weapon ban stats through the system

[quote=Comanglia][quote=rowrow]As far as deciding class balancing in a 6s format, class limit 1 decided by each team could work, which would naturally be limit one medic and limit one demo[/quote]

Could you imagine playing a turtle team of 2 Engineers, 2 Heavies, 1 Demo, and 1 Medic?[/quote]
Depends on the map and unlocks. I feel valve should direct more attention to accumulating weapon ban stats through the system
489
#489
7 Frags +

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/013/604/thisisbait.png

[img]http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/013/604/thisisbait.png[/img]
490
#490
11 Frags +

id be fine with playing a different game mode if its more fun than 6v6

but i dont think thats gonna happen

id be fine with playing a different game mode if its more fun than 6v6

but i dont think thats gonna happen
491
#491
2 Frags +

It's obviously going to be a little rough around the edges when it comes out, weapons and ranks and classes will probably all need adjusting over time so don't call it a failure just because it isn't an instant success. Look at other games such as dota and csgo that get much more frequent balance updates compared to tf2, a game where a weapon is likely to never have been touched by a balance after release. This is because valve have had no reliable data to use for balancing. This will change with matchmaking because it will be a place for them to actually get some data to make informed balancing decisions.

It's obviously going to be a little rough around the edges when it comes out, weapons and ranks and classes will probably all need adjusting over time so don't call it a failure just because it isn't an instant success. Look at other games such as dota and csgo that get much more frequent balance updates compared to tf2, a game where a weapon is likely to never have been touched by a balance after release. This is because valve have had no reliable data to use for balancing. This will change with matchmaking because it will be a place for them to actually get some data to make informed balancing decisions.
492
#492
5 Frags +
Lunacideid be fine with playing a different game mode if its more fun than 6v6

but i dont think thats gonna happen

I just feel like 6s flows so beautifully, and it's incredibly competitively viable. So what if it doesn't use all the content in the game? So what if there are items or classes or maps in the game that aren't played at the top level? I can't think of a single fighting game at EVO in which all the characters are equally balanced and are all played. Likewise with certain attacks, they just aren't particularly good for one reason or another. It's okay to take the most optimized, most skill-based, and most "fair" parts of the game and compile them into a competitive format.

And the best part if they don't even have to come up with anything new! It already exsists, it's already optimized, they just gotta throw it in the game and bam, we're esports

[quote=Lunacide]id be fine with playing a different game mode if its more fun than 6v6

but i dont think thats gonna happen[/quote]
I just feel like 6s flows so beautifully, and it's incredibly competitively viable. So what if it doesn't use all the content in the game? So what if there are items or classes or maps in the game that aren't played at the top level? I can't think of a single fighting game at EVO in which all the characters are equally balanced and are all played. Likewise with certain attacks, they just aren't particularly good for one reason or another. It's okay to take the most optimized, most skill-based, and most "fair" parts of the game and compile them into a competitive format.

And the best part if they don't even have to come up with anything new! It already exsists, it's already optimized, they just gotta throw it in the game and bam, we're esports
493
#493
8 Frags +

I still don't understand why valve thought the short circuit buff needed to be that extreme

I still don't understand why valve thought the short circuit buff needed to be that extreme
494
#494
14 Frags +

This community has always been abysmal when accepting change or introducing change (not saying the community as the whole is bad, this is one of the best online communities out there). For match making to work, valve is gonna make it so it appeals to a mass audience, not just our competitive circle. There would be no point for them to add a competitive setting into the game if it wasn't going to bring in more players, everyone is just going to have to be ready for the real possibility of change in our competitive game mode if you want this to work. Of course there is the possibility that it will be the way it is currently and that would be totally ideal but not likely.

This community has always been abysmal when accepting change or introducing change (not saying the community as the whole is bad, this is one of the best online communities out there). For match making to work, valve is gonna make it so it appeals to a mass audience, not just our competitive circle. There would be no point for them to add a competitive setting into the game if it wasn't going to bring in more players, everyone is just going to have to be ready for the real possibility of change in our competitive game mode if you want this to work. Of course there is the possibility that it will be the way it is currently and that would be totally ideal but not likely.
495
#495
2 Frags +
rowrowI still don't understand why valve thought the short circuit buff needed to be that extreme

davidthewin makes a valid point, they had no data to use for their buffs/nerfs. Valve is a company that listens to it's consumers. they stopped that whole paid mod thing after just a few days. they got the majority of their input from the community from the steamcommunity forums, and we all know what goes on over there....

[quote=rowrow]I still don't understand why valve thought the short circuit buff needed to be that extreme[/quote]
davidthewin makes a valid point, they had no data to use for their buffs/nerfs. Valve is a company that listens to it's consumers. they stopped that whole paid mod thing after just a few days. they got the majority of their input from the community from the steamcommunity forums, and we all know what goes on over there....
496
#496
2 Frags +

I think it's fair to say Demarini ruined the thread

I think it's fair to say Demarini ruined the thread
497
#497
10 Frags +

nah i wouldn't say that, dont give him the satisfaction

nah i wouldn't say that, dont give him the satisfaction
498
#498
14 Frags +

Somehow I feel Demarini is the older brother of 9v9enthusiast

Somehow I feel Demarini is the older brother of 9v9enthusiast
499
#499
6 Frags +
rowrowI still don't understand why valve thought the short circuit buff needed to be that extreme

Its hard to make an unlock as overpowered as the wrangler

[quote=rowrow]I still don't understand why valve thought the short circuit buff needed to be that extreme[/quote]

Its hard to make an unlock as overpowered as the wrangler
500
#500
0 Frags +
Twitch they got the majority of their input from the community from the steamcommunity forums, and we all know what goes on over there....

I can tell you one thing. They dont listen to spuf since they just parrot everything they read here.

[quote=Twitch] they got the majority of their input from the community from the steamcommunity forums, and we all know what goes on over there....[/quote]
I can tell you one thing. They dont listen to spuf since they just parrot everything they read here.
501
#501
10 Frags +

Things we don't know for certain.

    1. Exactly what Valve will do.
    2. Why people like playing pyro.

Things we know for certain right now:

    1. Our questions will be answered soon.
    2. Pyro sucks
Things we don't know for certain.
[olist]
1. Exactly what Valve will do.
2. Why people like playing pyro.
[/olist]

Things we know for certain right now:
[olist]
1. Our questions will be answered soon.
2. Pyro sucks
[/olist]
502
#502
11 Frags +

Stop with the pyro hate now, it's not going to get us anywhere.

Stop with the pyro hate now, it's not going to get us anywhere.
503
#503
24 Frags +
vibhavpWould love to see the traffic stats for today, now that this is the topmost post on r/tf2 (and on reddit's frontpage). *pokes enigma*

95k uniques
261k pageviews

was getting these alerts all day:

http://i.imgur.com/feYQBpf.png

[quote=vibhavp]Would love to see the traffic stats for today, now that this is the topmost post on r/tf2 (and on reddit's frontpage). *pokes enigma*[/quote]

95k uniques
261k pageviews

was getting these alerts all day:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/feYQBpf.png[/img]
504
#504
6 Frags +
enigmavibhavpWould love to see the traffic stats for today, now that this is the topmost post on r/tf2 (and on reddit's frontpage). *pokes enigma*
95k uniques
261k pageviews

holy shit

[quote=enigma][quote=vibhavp]Would love to see the traffic stats for today, now that this is the topmost post on r/tf2 (and on reddit's frontpage). *pokes enigma*[/quote]

95k uniques
261k pageviews[/quote]
holy shit
505
#505
-1 Frags +

Why are you still here?

Why are you still here?
506
#506
3 Frags +
parkenigmavibhavpWould love to see the traffic stats for today, now that this is the topmost post on r/tf2 (and on reddit's frontpage). *pokes enigma*
95k uniques
261k pageviews
holy shit

What are the traffic numbers normally?

[quote=park][quote=enigma][quote=vibhavp]Would love to see the traffic stats for today, now that this is the topmost post on r/tf2 (and on reddit's frontpage). *pokes enigma*[/quote]

95k uniques
261k pageviews[/quote]
holy shit[/quote]

What are the traffic numbers normally?
507
#507
12 Frags +

If tomorrow's stream hits anywhere around 10k or more viewers I will piss myself

If tomorrow's stream hits anywhere around 10k [i]or more[/i] viewers I will piss myself
508
#508
9 Frags +
rowrowIf tomorrow's stream hits anywhere around 10k or more viewers I will piss myself

Doubt it, don't think word will spread that much but it's going to be big. I will even stay up for it!

HYPED

[quote=rowrow]If tomorrow's stream hits anywhere around 10k [i]or more[/i] viewers I will piss myself[/quote]

Doubt it, don't think word will spread that much but it's going to be big. I will even stay up for it!

HYPED
509
#509
16 Frags +

Honestly, I think 6v6 makes the most sense because it fits better with the size of teams used in other eSports. 9v9 is going to be a pain to do in match making. Nothing wrong with HL, it is fun, but logistically it is a nightmare.

As for 6s, I expect that there will be far fewer limitations in whatever valve makes. And I don't think that is an issue, so long as valve is also actively working to balance weapons. What makes the most sense, to me, is limits on a handful of classes - such as 1 medic, 1 demo, maybe 1 heavy (but I imagine that more than 1 heavy would have some fairly serious drawbacks), and probably 2 of anything else. That is what 6s is right now. People could run full time snipers and pyros, or whatever else they wanted. They don't because after years of playing this format we've discovered that what matters most is mobility and burst/splash damage.

There is a meta in games like LoL and DotA, not because the players are forced to play that way, but because the players have discovered that that way of playing is the most effective. And it is still possible for them to play something different and unexpected. And that makes it fun to watch, fun to play, and appealing for sponsors to support.

If 6v6 with 2 scouts, 2 soldiers, 1 medic, and 1 demo is THE most competitive version of this game then trust that that is what the meta will gravitate towards - people will want to win after all, and if that works best they will make use of it. And if it isn't the most competitive version of this game then expect something different.

Honestly, I think 6v6 makes the most sense because it fits better with the size of teams used in other eSports. 9v9 is going to be a pain to do in match making. Nothing wrong with HL, it is fun, but logistically it is a nightmare.

As for 6s, I expect that there will be far fewer limitations in whatever valve makes. And I don't think that is an issue, so long as valve is also actively working to balance weapons. What makes the most sense, to me, is limits on a handful of classes - such as 1 medic, 1 demo, maybe 1 heavy (but I imagine that more than 1 heavy would have some fairly serious drawbacks), and probably 2 of anything else. That is what 6s is right now. People could run full time snipers and pyros, or whatever else they wanted. They don't because after years of playing this format we've discovered that what matters most is mobility and burst/splash damage.

There is a meta in games like LoL and DotA, not because the players are forced to play that way, but because the players have discovered that that way of playing is the most effective. And it is still possible for them to play something different and unexpected. And that makes it fun to watch, fun to play, and appealing for sponsors to support.

If 6v6 with 2 scouts, 2 soldiers, 1 medic, and 1 demo is THE most competitive version of this game then trust that that is what the meta will gravitate towards - people will want to win after all, and if that works best they will make use of it. And if it isn't the most competitive version of this game then expect something different.
510
#510
-6 Frags +
_In_SanityHonestly, I think 6v6 makes the most sense because it fits better with the size of teams used in other eSports

MOBAs and CS were designed for 5v5. TF2 is designed for 12v12. obviously 6v6 works best for competitive, but 9v9 might make more sense to valve/pubbers, especially with every class available.

[quote=_In_Sanity]Honestly, I think 6v6 makes the most sense because it fits better with the size of teams used in other eSports[/quote]
MOBAs and CS were designed for 5v5. TF2 is designed for 12v12. obviously 6v6 works best for competitive, but 9v9 might make more sense to valve/pubbers, especially with every class available.
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