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PC Build Thread
posted in Hardware
3631
#3631
0 Frags +

Well by the time you buy Matisse Refresh (3600XT) will be a thing. Some general advice:
Either commit to spending a lot of money on overclocking or don't. You'll always be held back by the weakest link.
The 212 Evo is a budget cooler, but it isn't particularly cheap in Australia so it makes no sense to buy it, especially if you're spending 300$ on a mobo.
Though I wouldn't recommend spending that much money on an X570 without a good reason. B450 is good enough and with B550 you wouldn't even have to worry about updating the BIOS for a 3600XT so that'd be both easier and cheaper.
Don't cheap out on the RAM, you can afford better timings. Check the mobo QVL just in case. Nothing worse than RAM that won't work at the advertised frequency with your mobo.
GPU depends on the settings, you might not need a 2070 Super.

https://tpucdn.com/review/nvidia-geforce-rtx-2060-super/images/rainbow-six-siege-1920-1080.png

A 2060 Super is much close to a 2070 than to a 2060. The performance difference is a lot less than the almost 1/3 of the price you save compared to a 2070 Super (and like I said you might not even need a 2060 Super).
That said if you can find a cheaper 2070 Super (e.g. one is on sale for 750$ right now) it's worth considering because it is a significant step up from the 2060 Super/2070.

Well by the time you buy Matisse Refresh (3600XT) will be a thing. Some general advice:
Either commit to spending a lot of money on overclocking or don't. You'll always be held back by the weakest link.
The 212 Evo is a budget cooler, but it isn't particularly cheap in Australia so it makes no sense to buy it, especially if you're spending 300$ on a mobo.
Though I wouldn't recommend spending that much money on an X570 without a good reason. B450 is good enough and with B550 you wouldn't even have to worry about updating the BIOS for a 3600XT so that'd be both easier and cheaper.
Don't cheap out on the RAM, you can afford better timings. Check the mobo QVL just in case. Nothing worse than RAM that won't work at the advertised frequency with your mobo.
GPU depends on the settings, you might not need a 2070 Super.
[img]https://tpucdn.com/review/nvidia-geforce-rtx-2060-super/images/rainbow-six-siege-1920-1080.png[/img]
A 2060 Super is much close to a 2070 than to a 2060. The performance difference is a lot less than the almost 1/3 of the price you save compared to a 2070 Super (and like I said you might not even need a 2060 Super).
That said if you can find a cheaper 2070 Super (e.g. one is on sale for 750$ right now) it's worth considering because it is a significant step up from the 2060 Super/2070.
3632
#3632
0 Frags +

I'm looking into buying an aftermarket cooler for my 3700x, the stock cooler is ok but it gets a bit loud under load imo and I'm sure an aftermarket cooler will also keep temps down better (currently maxing around 75C, no OC or real tweaking done).

I 100% do not want water cooling, and I'm sure that the hyper 212 is not the best shout even though it's got so many good ratings on pcpartpicker. Any suggestions for a budget around £60? I could go a bit higher if the performance gain/noise reduction is really worth it.

I'm looking into buying an aftermarket cooler for my 3700x, the stock cooler is ok but it gets a bit loud under load imo and I'm sure an aftermarket cooler will also keep temps down better (currently maxing around 75C, no OC or real tweaking done).

I 100% do not want water cooling, and I'm sure that the hyper 212 is not the best shout even though it's got so many good ratings on pcpartpicker. Any suggestions for a budget around £60? I could go a bit higher if the performance gain/noise reduction is really worth it.
3633
#3633
0 Frags +

Personally I have seen too many great reviews of the Noctua NH-D15 cooler to not recommend although it is one of the largest air coolers on the market (£89.99 on Amazon)

It has temperature performance tests that do better that most AIO water coolers and is also quieter.

Personally I have seen too many great reviews of the Noctua NH-D15 cooler to not recommend although it is one of the largest air coolers on the market (£89.99 on Amazon)

It has temperature performance tests that do better that most AIO water coolers and is also quieter.
3634
#3634
0 Frags +

for around 70 pounds you can get a dark rock pro 4, or slightly more expensive Noctua NH-D15 for the upmost in performance+noise. These are pretty much the best air coolers you can buy. Noctua have good customer service also if that is worth anything. But they perform within 1C of each other so probably down to if you like black or beige more.

For less than 60, you can get a Cryorig h7 or a be quiet! dark rock 4, which are also good tower coolers. Ive heard good things about the ThermalRight Macho also, but i cant tell you how it performs off the top of my head.

All of these coolers are AM4 compatible out of the box so no worries there.

I have an NH-D15 and it is very quiet and performs well. It comes with updated AM4 mounting hardware despite what some sites say and low noise adapters to lower maximum RPM speeds. Easy to mount and do maintenance on it too. Just make sure your case can fit it with both fans.

From what I understand, BeQuiet! is a lower frequency but louder, so it isnt noticeable either. I havent tested this personally though so I may be wrong.

for around 70 pounds you can get a dark rock pro 4, or slightly more expensive Noctua NH-D15 for the upmost in performance+noise. These are pretty much the best air coolers you can buy. Noctua have good customer service also if that is worth anything. But they perform within 1C of each other so probably down to if you like black or beige more.

For less than 60, you can get a Cryorig h7 or a be quiet! dark rock 4, which are also good tower coolers. Ive heard good things about the ThermalRight Macho also, but i cant tell you how it performs off the top of my head.

All of these coolers are AM4 compatible out of the box so no worries there.

I have an NH-D15 and it is very quiet and performs well. It comes with updated AM4 mounting hardware despite what some sites say and low noise adapters to lower maximum RPM speeds. Easy to mount and do maintenance on it too. Just make sure your case can fit it with both fans.

From what I understand, BeQuiet! is a lower frequency but louder, so it isnt noticeable either. I havent tested this personally though so I may be wrong.
3635
#3635
0 Frags +

Around 45-50£:
Cryorig H5 Universal/Ultimate
be quiet! Shadow Rock 3
Alpenföhn Brocken 3
Thermalright Macho Rev. C

Around 60£:
be quiet! Dark Rock 4
Noctua NH-U12S SE-AM4
Phanteks PH-TC14PE if you can get one. A bit louder due to being a dual tower but obviously a bit cooler as well.
Same if you can find an NH-D14. For both you'll have to get a free AM4 mounting kit from the manufacturer though.

Around 45-50£:
Cryorig H5 Universal/Ultimate
be quiet! Shadow Rock 3
Alpenföhn Brocken 3
Thermalright Macho Rev. C

Around 60£:
be quiet! Dark Rock 4
Noctua NH-U12S SE-AM4
Phanteks PH-TC14PE if you can get one. A bit louder due to being a dual tower but obviously a bit cooler as well.
Same if you can find an NH-D14. For both you'll have to get a free AM4 mounting kit from the manufacturer though.
3636
#3636
0 Frags +

Can anyone give me advice for upgrading my setup? My current setup is an i7 4770k with a 3gb 1060, my fps drops down pretty low in tf2 so I'm thinking I'll get a new processor, I assume that would require a new motherboard? Current one is Gigabyte Z87-UD4H. Don't really play too many other games but would like to get a VR setup some time in the future so maybe I'll just get an entirely new PC and give a friend my old PC. No idea what the current recommendations are in terms of AMD vs intel or whatever. Thinking I want to get a relatively small case so I can take it to LAN's and such, any recommendations for that?

Can anyone give me advice for upgrading my setup? My current setup is an i7 4770k with a 3gb 1060, my fps drops down pretty low in tf2 so I'm thinking I'll get a new processor, I assume that would require a new motherboard? Current one is Gigabyte Z87-UD4H. Don't really play too many other games but would like to get a VR setup some time in the future so maybe I'll just get an entirely new PC and give a friend my old PC. No idea what the current recommendations are in terms of AMD vs intel or whatever. Thinking I want to get a relatively small case so I can take it to LAN's and such, any recommendations for that?
3637
#3637
0 Frags +

You'd also need new RAM.
If you want a new case as well that means you can only keep the SSD/HDD, GPU and maybe the PSU. Though at that point you might as well leave that in so you friend doesn't have to rebuild it, just add his own GPU and SSD/HDD. So a new build makes sense, but I'd still keep at least the GPU, HDD unless you have a good reason not to. New SSD might make sense though.

Are the low fps a new problem or just in general and you only now get around to doing something about it?

For CPUs it's about the specific models. If across the whole lineup you'd always pick the same brand the market shares wouldn't be what they are.

Budget?

You'd also need new RAM.
If you want a new case as well that means you can only keep the SSD/HDD, GPU and maybe the PSU. Though at that point you might as well leave that in so you friend doesn't have to rebuild it, just add his own GPU and SSD/HDD. So a new build makes sense, but I'd still keep at least the GPU, HDD unless you have a good reason not to. New SSD might make sense though.

Are the low fps a new problem or just in general and you only now get around to doing something about it?

For CPUs it's about the specific models. If across the whole lineup you'd always pick the same brand the market shares wouldn't be what they are.

Budget?
3638
#3638
0 Frags +

Not a new problem just got a 240hz and now notice it a lot more. I have 16gb ram from my old pc but I'm thinking I'll probably just build an entirely new PC and keep the old one working. Not sure how much PC's cost these days, back in 2014 or whenever I bought my old one you could get a good setup for $1000 but maybe things have gotten cheaper (or more expensive?). In the past I know intel was better for single core (which tf2 is effectively) and gaming, is that still the case? Also, I'm thinking I would like to get a VR setup in the future, I assume that would mean getting a pretty decent GPU right?

Not a new problem just got a 240hz and now notice it a lot more. I have 16gb ram from my old pc but I'm thinking I'll probably just build an entirely new PC and keep the old one working. Not sure how much PC's cost these days, back in 2014 or whenever I bought my old one you could get a good setup for $1000 but maybe things have gotten cheaper (or more expensive?). In the past I know intel was better for single core (which tf2 is effectively) and gaming, is that still the case? Also, I'm thinking I would like to get a VR setup in the future, I assume that would mean getting a pretty decent GPU right?
3639
#3639
3 Frags +
_KermitI'm looking into buying an aftermarket cooler for my 3700x, the stock cooler is ok but it gets a bit loud under load imo and I'm sure an aftermarket cooler will also keep temps down better (currently maxing around 75C, no OC or real tweaking done).

I 100% do not want water cooling, and I'm sure that the hyper 212 is not the best shout even though it's got so many good ratings on pcpartpicker. Any suggestions for a budget around £60? I could go a bit higher if the performance gain/noise reduction is really worth it.

i use a scythe fuma 2 with mine
pretty good and quiet as well, I run pretty conservative fan speeds and I top out around 65-70C
edit: I paid 55 USD for it, and it comes with a baller fucking magnetic screwdriver

[quote=_Kermit]I'm looking into buying an aftermarket cooler for my 3700x, the stock cooler is ok but it gets a bit loud under load imo and I'm sure an aftermarket cooler will also keep temps down better (currently maxing around 75C, no OC or real tweaking done).

I 100% do not want water cooling, and I'm sure that the hyper 212 is not the best shout even though it's got so many good ratings on pcpartpicker. Any suggestions for a budget around £60? I could go a bit higher if the performance gain/noise reduction is really worth it.[/quote]
i use a scythe fuma 2 with mine
pretty good and quiet as well, I run pretty conservative fan speeds and I top out around 65-70C
edit: I paid 55 USD for it, and it comes with a baller fucking magnetic screwdriver
3640
#3640
2 Frags +

#3638
I know your old PC got RAM. DDR3 still isn't going to fit into DDR4 slots, regardless of the capacity.

1000$ still gets you a good PC.

You want an easy answer when there is no easy answer. For example an i5-10500 and R5 3600X cost about the same. The 10500 is going to be a bit faster in most single threaded workloads (though slightly slower in some, there are always exceptions) but slower in multi-threaded if all other things are equal. The problem is they won't be. It's not soldered and the stock cooler isn't anything to write home about so temperatures and therefore clockrates aren't going to be great unless you buy an aftermarket cooler. However if you do that (and even if you don't because the AMD stock cooler is at least ok) you could also overclock the 3600X. The Intel motherboards are also slightly more expensive, unless you want one that actually supports RAM faster than 2666 MHz (all AMD boards do), then it's going to be a lot more expensive. TF2 likes fast RAM. So which CPU ends up actually being faster depends on how much you spend on everything else.
There is no general rule that every Intel CPU will have better single threaded performance than any AMD CPU.
Comparing CPUs with the same price doesn't work because Intel lets you pay more for everything else.
Comparing setups with the same price doesn't work because then there's still overclocking which depends on the time you invest and luck of the draw. You also need to first choose what you can even afford. What cooler? What RAM speed? And so on. Then there's the little problem that the 3600XT will be released in 5 days. B550 mobos will also offer PCIe 4.0, that's another few fps in games that depend more on the GPU.

I can tell you that if you spend 530$ on an i9-10900K, 200$ on RAM, 200$ on a Z490, 70-100$ on a cooler and then overclock it it's going to be faster single threaded than anything AMD got to offer, but beyond that everything depends on your budget.
It's all nice and good that an overclocked i5-10600K(F) will definitely beat a 3600X, overclocked or not (at least single threaded), and they've nominally got almost the same MSRP (+13$ for the K, -12$ for the KF without iGPU), but ~60$ more for the CPU (because actual retail prices are 220$ vs 280$), ~50$ more for a mobo that actually allows overclocking and another 40-70$ for a cooler because the K(F) doesn't come with one and you actually want to get an OC, not just barely run it at stock without overheating, makes that all a moot point.

Picking a brand and then choosing what you can afford is stupid.
Figure out how much performance you want/need, whether or not you want to overclock and then pick a CPU that fits the bill, regardless of brand and name.
Or pick a budget, do the rest of the build and then if you also want a GPU see which combinations of CPU, RAM, mobo, cooler and GPU you can still afford.

#3638
I know your old PC got RAM. DDR3 still isn't going to fit into DDR4 slots, regardless of the capacity.

1000$ still gets you a good PC.

You want an easy answer when there is no easy answer. For example an i5-10500 and R5 3600X cost about the same. The 10500 is going to be a bit faster in most single threaded workloads (though slightly slower in some, there are always exceptions) but slower in multi-threaded if all other things are equal. The problem is they won't be. It's not soldered and the stock cooler isn't anything to write home about so temperatures and therefore clockrates aren't going to be great unless you buy an aftermarket cooler. However if you do that (and even if you don't because the AMD stock cooler is at least ok) you could also overclock the 3600X. The Intel motherboards are also slightly more expensive, unless you want one that actually supports RAM faster than 2666 MHz (all AMD boards do), then it's going to be a lot more expensive. TF2 likes fast RAM. So which CPU ends up actually being faster depends on how much you spend on everything else.
There is no general rule that every Intel CPU will have better single threaded performance than any AMD CPU.
Comparing CPUs with the same price doesn't work because Intel lets you pay more for everything else.
Comparing setups with the same price doesn't work because then there's still overclocking which depends on the time you invest and luck of the draw. You also need to first choose what you can even afford. What cooler? What RAM speed? And so on. Then there's the little problem that the 3600XT will be released in 5 days. B550 mobos will also offer PCIe 4.0, that's another few fps in games that depend more on the GPU.

I can tell you that if you spend 530$ on an i9-10900K, 200$ on RAM, 200$ on a Z490, 70-100$ on a cooler and then overclock it it's going to be faster single threaded than anything AMD got to offer, but beyond that everything depends on your budget.
It's all nice and good that an overclocked i5-10600K(F) will definitely beat a 3600X, overclocked or not (at least single threaded), and they've nominally got almost the same MSRP (+13$ for the K, -12$ for the KF without iGPU), but ~60$ more for the CPU (because actual retail prices are 220$ vs 280$), ~50$ more for a mobo that actually allows overclocking and another 40-70$ for a cooler because the K(F) doesn't come with one and you actually want to get an OC, not just barely run it at stock without overheating, makes that all a moot point.

Picking a brand and then choosing what you can afford is stupid.
Figure out how much performance you want/need, whether or not you want to overclock and then pick a CPU that fits the bill, regardless of brand and name.
Or pick a budget, do the rest of the build and then if you also want a GPU see which combinations of CPU, RAM, mobo, cooler and GPU you can still afford.
3641
#3641
0 Frags +

Thanks for all the help Setsul. It seems like the 10th gen stuff isn't quite yet available, does that go along with new releases from AMD as well in the near future? Guess it makes sense to wait until then. In terms of overclocking I'm probably not that interested in anything too crazy but I would definitely like to get more than 240fps in tf2 while streaming ideally. Not sure how much of a performance increase there is from overclocking with these newer CPUs, but my current setup I got a hyper 212 and overclocked my 4770k a bit but didn't want to go too far and have it be unstable and prone to crash. The marketing stuff for these 10th gen intel cpus says that the turbo boost turns the clock speeds up to like 4.5 or 4.8 or whatever, which seems like a smarter idea than constantly running super high clock speed and using more energy and potentially overheating. If the performance gain from overclocking isn't too drastic (in the past I remember people said overclocking your cpu speed was like the #1 way to increase tf2 performance) I would probably just leave it stock and not have to hassle with it or deal with crashes or anything.

Are there any different considerations for streaming or for running multiple monitors? You mentioned TF2 likes fast RAM, is that a big difference? I don't currently do much video editing from being busy with school and work but in the future I would probably like to be able to do it again so maybe getting AMD for the cheaper motherboard and already supporting fast RAM and better multi-threaded performance (which is important for streaming, right? I guess GPU encoding means that's a factor too). Budget wise I won't hard limit it too tight but probably would like to spend no more than $1200 on the whole set up. Would like to get a good GPU for VR stuff in the future but not a huge consideration, think CPU and RAM and stuff matters more for TF2.

Thanks for all the help Setsul. It seems like the 10th gen stuff isn't quite yet available, does that go along with new releases from AMD as well in the near future? Guess it makes sense to wait until then. In terms of overclocking I'm probably not that interested in anything too crazy but I would definitely like to get more than 240fps in tf2 while streaming ideally. Not sure how much of a performance increase there is from overclocking with these newer CPUs, but my current setup I got a hyper 212 and overclocked my 4770k a bit but didn't want to go too far and have it be unstable and prone to crash. The marketing stuff for these 10th gen intel cpus says that the turbo boost turns the clock speeds up to like 4.5 or 4.8 or whatever, which seems like a smarter idea than constantly running super high clock speed and using more energy and potentially overheating. If the performance gain from overclocking isn't too drastic (in the past I remember people said overclocking your cpu speed was like the #1 way to increase tf2 performance) I would probably just leave it stock and not have to hassle with it or deal with crashes or anything.

Are there any different considerations for streaming or for running multiple monitors? You mentioned TF2 likes fast RAM, is that a big difference? I don't currently do much video editing from being busy with school and work but in the future I would probably like to be able to do it again so maybe getting AMD for the cheaper motherboard and already supporting fast RAM and better multi-threaded performance (which is important for streaming, right? I guess GPU encoding means that's a factor too). Budget wise I won't hard limit it too tight but probably would like to spend no more than $1200 on the whole set up. Would like to get a good GPU for VR stuff in the future but not a huge consideration, think CPU and RAM and stuff matters more for TF2.
3642
#3642
0 Frags +

Like I said, release on 7/7 so they should be available around the same time.
I don't really have an accurate read on what you'd need these days to get 240 fps (and it also depends on the settings) but I highly doubt it'll be 5 GHz. So I'd just get something that's not crippled by a 2.x GHz baseclock and with 4.5-ish or more turbo and hope for the best. Not exactly the most professional approach but it should do. If you tell me what clockrate your 4770K is running at and how many fps you're getting right now (unless you only need more when streaming, then anything not slower than a 4770K with more cores will do) I can make a better estimate of what you actually need. My guess is you wouldn't need to overclock.
Turbo/Boost clocks and overclocking aren't mutually exclusive. No one overclocks by locking the clockrate anymore. Idle, normal and turbo states still work and are switched to when appropriate, regardless of what multipliers are set as maximum.
The performance gain is still roughly linear. The more important question is do you need it? If you can get let's say 250 fps at stock it doesn't matter if overclocking would get you an extra 10 or an extra 100 fps. You don't have to spend any money and time on it if you don't need it.

Yes, streaming affects the build significantly. Either you want a lot of cores or GPU encoding. The number of monitors don't matter unless you want more than 4 (nVidia) or 6 (AMD).
I haven't done any testing with DDR4 but I've seen >10% in my testing. Super expensive RAM still doesn't make any sense but going from the cheapest RAM to something fairly good is about the same as overclocking from 4.5 to 5.0 GHz so I definitely wouldn't cheap out on it. 3200 MHz CL16 minimum, 3600 MHz CL16 if the price is ok though CL17 or 18 is still better than 3200/16.

GPU encoding would be better, both performance wise and in terms of quality should you get an nVidia card, unless you bend over backwards to cram an unreasonable number of CPU cores into your budget. Since you want a new GPU anyway I would recommend going with that. In that case you could cheap out and go with a quad core but AMD doesn't really do those anymore and buying a 150$ mobo for a 150$ quad core Intel CPU just to be able to use RAM faster than 2666 MHz feels really weird. Also for when you do do some video editing and maybe VR stuff that taxes the CPU a bit more it's nice having 6 cores.
Realistically with your budget you can easily afford a 3600X(T) and a 2060 Super or even 2070 Super, maybe a new NVMe SSD if you want it. GPU wise that might actually be overkill.
https://pcpartpicker.com/list/rFffTC
That's just a rough sketch, but you get the idea.

3 steps now:
1. Tell me about the clockrate and fps so we can figure out how much single threaded performance you actually need.
2. Make a decision regarding GPU vs CPU encoding. (dislike of nVidia is a perfectly valid rerason for going with and AMD GPU which means a bit of a quality tradeoff when using GPU encoding or even using CPU encoding)
3. Wait for the new CPUs.

Like I said, release on 7/7 so they should be available around the same time.
I don't really have an accurate read on what you'd need these days to get 240 fps (and it also depends on the settings) but I highly doubt it'll be 5 GHz. So I'd just get something that's not crippled by a 2.x GHz baseclock and with 4.5-ish or more turbo and hope for the best. Not exactly the most professional approach but it should do. If you tell me what clockrate your 4770K is running at and how many fps you're getting right now (unless you only need more when streaming, then anything not slower than a 4770K with more cores will do) I can make a better estimate of what you actually need. My guess is you wouldn't need to overclock.
Turbo/Boost clocks and overclocking aren't mutually exclusive. No one overclocks by locking the clockrate anymore. Idle, normal and turbo states still work and are switched to when appropriate, regardless of what multipliers are set as maximum.
The performance gain is still roughly linear. The more important question is do you need it? If you can get let's say 250 fps at stock it doesn't matter if overclocking would get you an extra 10 or an extra 100 fps. You don't have to spend any money and time on it if you don't need it.

Yes, streaming affects the build significantly. Either you want a lot of cores or GPU encoding. The number of monitors don't matter unless you want more than 4 (nVidia) or 6 (AMD).
I haven't done any testing with DDR4 but I've seen >10% in my testing. Super expensive RAM still doesn't make any sense but going from the cheapest RAM to something fairly good is about the same as overclocking from 4.5 to 5.0 GHz so I definitely wouldn't cheap out on it. 3200 MHz CL16 minimum, 3600 MHz CL16 if the price is ok though CL17 or 18 is still better than 3200/16.

GPU encoding would be better, both performance wise and in terms of quality should you get an nVidia card, unless you bend over backwards to cram an unreasonable number of CPU cores into your budget. Since you want a new GPU anyway I would recommend going with that. In that case you could cheap out and go with a quad core but AMD doesn't really do those anymore and buying a 150$ mobo for a 150$ quad core Intel CPU just to be able to use RAM faster than 2666 MHz feels really weird. Also for when you do do some video editing and maybe VR stuff that taxes the CPU a bit more it's nice having 6 cores.
Realistically with your budget you can easily afford a 3600X(T) and a 2060 Super or even 2070 Super, maybe a new NVMe SSD if you want it. GPU wise that might actually be overkill.
https://pcpartpicker.com/list/rFffTC
That's just a rough sketch, but you get the idea.

3 steps now:
1. Tell me about the clockrate and fps so we can figure out how much single threaded performance you actually need.
2. Make a decision regarding GPU vs CPU encoding. (dislike of nVidia is a perfectly valid rerason for going with and AMD GPU which means a bit of a quality tradeoff when using GPU encoding or even using CPU encoding)
3. Wait for the new CPUs.
3643
#3643
0 Frags +

My 4770k I have at 4.1 ghz I believe right now and when streaming with NVENC my frames are mostly inconsistent and will go anywhere from 120-240+, will drop down on midfights and be pretty inconsistent which is annoying. I think I had it at 4.2 previously and it was definitely better FPS wise and stuff but it would crash occasionally so I turned it down. I think I'll keep with GPU encoding because TF2 isn't even much GPU strain anyways so I feel like that makes more sense. And are AMD releasing new GPU's around the same time as well or is 7/7 just Intel? Also, how much of a deal is hyper threading because it says that now the i5's have it in the 10th gen which seems pretty nice, would that be a big difference when compared to the 3600X which is also 6 core?

My 4770k I have at 4.1 ghz I believe right now and when streaming with NVENC my frames are mostly inconsistent and will go anywhere from 120-240+, will drop down on midfights and be pretty inconsistent which is annoying. I think I had it at 4.2 previously and it was definitely better FPS wise and stuff but it would crash occasionally so I turned it down. I think I'll keep with GPU encoding because TF2 isn't even much GPU strain anyways so I feel like that makes more sense. And are AMD releasing new GPU's around the same time as well or is 7/7 just Intel? Also, how much of a deal is hyper threading because it says that now the i5's have it in the 10th gen which seems pretty nice, would that be a big difference when compared to the 3600X which is also 6 core?
3644
#3644
0 Frags +

4.1 is barely an overclock considering the 4770K starts with 3.9. I'm surprised you couldn't even get 4.2 stable, the average OC is 4.5. No offense, but that doesn't exactly inspire confidence so unless you're willing to invest enough time to learn how to do it properly I wouldn't go for overclocking on the new build.
You're already using GPU encoding so CPU load from streaming obviously isn't the problem. GPU encoding doesn't cause any GPU load either though.

Fps in TF2 will always be inconsistent. A new pc will not fix that. There's also a slight problem: If you want those minimum 120 fps to become 240 you'd need a CPU that's twice as fast and there simply is none.

First lets clarify a few things: Did you mean AMD will be releasing CPUs? Because there will be no GPUs. Also I'm not sure how you got the idea that Intel would be releasing new CPUs from " the 3600XT will be released in 5 days". Intel 10th Gen/Comet Lake has already been released on April 30th. Intel made a big show out of releasing before AMD. Turns out they don't actually have enough CPUs so it's essentially a paper launch and availability is dogshit.
All of AMD's 6 cores had SMT since 2017 (and their implementation is a bit better than Intel's anyway, even if it doesn't have a fancy marketing name) so i5s getting that now so they don't get shit on in multithreaded workloads for the third year in a row only closes that gap. Still not enough to win unless they already got such a significant advantage in single threaded/clockrate that it's enough to overcome their disadvantage in SMT.

4.1 is barely an overclock considering the 4770K starts with 3.9. I'm surprised you couldn't even get 4.2 stable, the average OC is 4.5. No offense, but that doesn't exactly inspire confidence so unless you're willing to invest enough time to learn how to do it properly I wouldn't go for overclocking on the new build.
You're already using GPU encoding so CPU load from streaming obviously isn't the problem. GPU encoding doesn't cause any GPU load either though.

Fps in TF2 will always be inconsistent. A new pc will not fix that. There's also a slight problem: If you want those minimum 120 fps to become 240 you'd need a CPU that's twice as fast and there simply is none.

First lets clarify a few things: Did you mean AMD will be releasing CPUs? Because there will be no GPUs. Also I'm not sure how you got the idea that Intel would be releasing new CPUs from " the 3600XT will be released in 5 days". Intel 10th Gen/Comet Lake has already been released on April 30th. Intel made a big show out of releasing before AMD. Turns out they don't actually have enough CPUs so it's essentially a paper launch and availability is dogshit.
All of AMD's 6 cores had SMT since 2017 (and their implementation is a bit better than Intel's anyway, even if it doesn't have a fancy marketing name) so i5s getting that now so they don't get shit on in multithreaded workloads for the third year in a row only closes that gap. Still not enough to win unless they already got such a significant advantage in single threaded/clockrate that it's enough to overcome their disadvantage in SMT.
3645
#3645
0 Frags +

7/7 was when AMD announced new cpus last year. most likely all releases will be in september-ish aswell as for GPUs.

120fps seems a bit low. you might wanna check your temperatures to see you arent overheating or anything related to throttling in HWinfo64, or your OC may not be stable. idk if you have cleaned your pc since you got it, but worst case it can be 5 years without cleaning. might be worthwhile to give it a clean if you have bad temps or have never done it. if we are talking 6v6 (been a while since i was on ddr3 but) i felt like i got more than that at a lower clock speed.

if you havent increased core voltage at all or optimized LLC and stuff you probably have more performance on the table/stability. you either got one of the worst 4770k's known to man or you are doing something wrong. chances are you probably forgot to do something.

SMT can negatively effect your performance in tf2 (and can effect potentially security if you are intel xd), and is most useful for rendering in blender or something like that by like 10-30%. probably wont make a huge difference day to day, although Ryzens is superior.

7/7 was when AMD announced new cpus last year. most likely all releases will be in september-ish aswell as for GPUs.

120fps seems a bit low. you might wanna check your temperatures to see you arent overheating or anything related to throttling in HWinfo64, or your OC may not be stable. idk if you have cleaned your pc since you got it, but worst case it can be 5 years without cleaning. might be worthwhile to give it a clean if you have bad temps or have never done it. if we are talking 6v6 (been a while since i was on ddr3 but) i felt like i got more than that at a lower clock speed.

if you havent increased core voltage at all or optimized LLC and stuff you probably have more performance on the table/stability. you either got one of the worst 4770k's known to man or you are doing something wrong. chances are you probably forgot to do something.

SMT can negatively effect your performance in tf2 (and can effect potentially security if you are intel xd), and is most useful for rendering in blender or something like that by like 10-30%. probably wont make a huge difference day to day, although Ryzens is superior.
3646
#3646
0 Frags +
Fake7/7 was when AMD announced new cpus last year. most likely all releases will be in september-ish aswell as for GPUs.

No? Most were released on 7/7? Only the 3950X and some OEM CPUs came later.

Do you want to tell me that press release from June 16 is not an announcement and that "Expected Availability: July 7, 2020" actually means "release in september"?
https://www.amd.com/en/press-releases/2020-06-16-amd-offers-enthusiasts-more-choice-ever-new-ryzen-3000xt-processors

[quote=Fake]7/7 was when AMD announced new cpus last year. most likely all releases will be in september-ish aswell as for GPUs.[/quote]
No? Most were released on 7/7? Only the 3950X and some OEM CPUs came later.

Do you want to tell me that press release from June 16 is not an announcement and that "Expected Availability: July 7, 2020" actually means "release in september"?
https://www.amd.com/en/press-releases/2020-06-16-amd-offers-enthusiasts-more-choice-ever-new-ryzen-3000xt-processors
3647
#3647
0 Frags +

Sorry was confused I guess, when I looked into it a lot of the intel 10th gen cpu's said they were pre-order only and weren't available but that probably is more to do with bad availability rather than a set new release date. And good call I'll try to clean it out and see if I can get it stable at 4.2. I know in the past I had it running at 4.2 but it was crashing, I probably just didn't test enough settings and it needed more voltage or something. Will test that out and then see how it goes, been a few years since I properly cleaned everything out when I got a new GPU.

Sorry was confused I guess, when I looked into it a lot of the intel 10th gen cpu's said they were pre-order only and weren't available but that probably is more to do with bad availability rather than a set new release date. And good call I'll try to clean it out and see if I can get it stable at 4.2. I know in the past I had it running at 4.2 but it was crashing, I probably just didn't test enough settings and it needed more voltage or something. Will test that out and then see how it goes, been a few years since I properly cleaned everything out when I got a new GPU.
3648
#3648
-3 Frags +
Setsul

yes most of the cpus were released on 7/7 last year. used announced/released interchangeably.

But it is true that nothing zen 3 related will be released this month which was the point i was making, and most likely September time, which is what people should wait for not a zen 2 refresh, considering 3600 silicon has also improved.

buying a 3600xt for 100mhz and a increase for 25% more cost isnt worth it at all. especially considering you can buy a 3600 for an even lower price and get most the performance you would get, since they are all on better silicon now. and since zen 3 will be this year, seems a bit wasteful to spend full price on a new cpu that will be released soon. remember 2700x anniversary edition? full price but new cpus came out 3 months later, same situation here.

we are talking

3600 - 4.2ghz
3600x - 4.4ghz
3600xt - 4.5ghz

absolutely not worth it at all.

bearodactyl

if you increase voltage/clocks keep an eye on your temperatures so you dont degrade anything. i think the max recommend voltage is 1.3? if that's too hot for you just decrease the voltage. i wouldn't be comfortable with anything over 85 personally. i think up to 1.4 is safe, as long as you have adequate cooling, which i dont think you have because we are talking dual tower coolers or 280mm AIO.

there should be some haswell overclocking tutorials somewhere on the internet. im sure linustechtips has a decent one.

[quote=Setsul][/quote]

yes most of the cpus were released on 7/7 last year. used announced/released interchangeably.

But it is true that nothing zen 3 related will be released this month which was the point i was making, and most likely September time, which is what people should wait for not a zen 2 refresh, considering 3600 silicon has also improved.

buying a 3600xt for 100mhz and a increase for 25% more cost isnt worth it at all. especially considering you can buy a 3600 for an even lower price and get most the performance you would get, since they are all on better silicon now. and since zen 3 will be this year, seems a bit wasteful to spend full price on a new cpu that will be released soon. remember 2700x anniversary edition? full price but new cpus came out 3 months later, same situation here.

we are talking

3600 - 4.2ghz
3600x - 4.4ghz
3600xt - 4.5ghz

absolutely not worth it at all.

[quote=bearodactyl][/quote]
if you increase voltage/clocks keep an eye on your temperatures so you dont degrade anything. i think the max recommend voltage is 1.3? if that's too hot for you just decrease the voltage. i wouldn't be comfortable with anything over 85 personally. i think up to 1.4 is safe, as long as you have adequate cooling, which i dont think you have because we are talking dual tower coolers or 280mm AIO.

there should be some haswell overclocking tutorials somewhere on the internet. im sure linustechtips has a decent one.
3649
#3649
0 Frags +
Fake7/7 was when AMD announced new cpus last year. most likely all releases will be in september-ish aswell as for GPUs.Fakeyes most of the cpus were released on 7/7 last year. used announced/released interchangeably.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. AMD released CPUs on 7/7 last year and they'll release CPUs on 7/7 this year.
I didn't even mention GPUs and both Navi 2X and Zen3 are planned for Q4 according to the roadmaps, not September, unless you know something I don't.

If he wants to wait for Zen3 he can. He could also wait for Zen4 in 2022, which will be even better.

What is your point? Should he buy a 3600 now before the price drops when the 3600XT is released? Should he wait until September?
Why buy a 3600 at all? A 1600 AF for 85$, not even half the price still gets you 3.6 GHz. The higher the performance, the worse the price to performance ratio. Hell, he could just not buy anything and leave everything as is. That's absolutely free. Oh wait, he needs a faster CPU, not whatever you think would give him the most bang for buck.

Just recommending the 3600 because it's cheaper and hoping it'll magically double his minimum fps is a bad strategy.
It does not matter how cost effective a build is when it fails to meet the original performance goal of upgrading.
That's why I was trying to figure out how much faster than a 4770K his new CPU would have to be.

Anyway, my hopes for overclocking solving his problem are very low. Going from 4.1 to 4.2 isn't going to fix the problem. Instability usually arises from voltage, not temperature so I think he's just too inexperienced and timid. Most 4770Ks should do 4.4, maybe 4.5 or even 4.6+ if he's lucky, but a non-delidded 4770K cooled by a 212 will always be thermally limited way before that. Either way it's not something that'll double the minimum fps so I don't think it's worth spending time on that for now.

Cleaning and maybe reverting to stock settings should tell us if this was a temperature/throttling problem, but otherwise he might just have to lower his expectations for the new build.

[quote=Fake]7/7 was when AMD announced new cpus last year. most likely all releases will be in september-ish aswell as for GPUs.[/quote]
[quote=Fake]
yes most of the cpus were released on 7/7 last year. used announced/released interchangeably.[/quote]
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. AMD released CPUs on 7/7 last year and they'll release CPUs on 7/7 this year.
I didn't even mention GPUs and both Navi 2X and Zen3 are planned for Q4 according to the roadmaps, not September, unless you know something I don't.

If he wants to wait for Zen3 he can. He could also wait for Zen4 in 2022, which will be even better.

What is your point? Should he buy a 3600 now before the price drops when the 3600XT is released? Should he wait until September?
Why buy a 3600 at all? A 1600 AF for 85$, not even half the price still gets you 3.6 GHz. The higher the performance, the worse the price to performance ratio. Hell, he could just not buy anything and leave everything as is. That's absolutely free. Oh wait, he needs a faster CPU, not whatever you think would give him the most bang for buck.

Just recommending the 3600 because it's cheaper and hoping it'll magically double his minimum fps is a bad strategy.
It does not matter how cost effective a build is when it fails to meet the original performance goal of upgrading.
That's why I was trying to figure out how much faster than a 4770K his new CPU would have to be.


Anyway, my hopes for overclocking solving his problem are very low. Going from 4.1 to 4.2 isn't going to fix the problem. Instability usually arises from voltage, not temperature so I think he's just too inexperienced and timid. Most 4770Ks should do 4.4, maybe 4.5 or even 4.6+ if he's lucky, but a non-delidded 4770K cooled by a 212 will always be thermally limited way before that. Either way it's not something that'll double the minimum fps so I don't think it's worth spending time on that for now.

Cleaning and maybe reverting to stock settings should tell us if this was a temperature/throttling problem, but otherwise he might just have to lower his expectations for the new build.
3650
#3650
-2 Frags +
Setsul

7% higher clock speeds for 37% more cost for a 3600xt isnt worth it (comparing vs 3600), and I doubt that higher performance will be make or break for 240fps in tf2 anyway. value and performance are equally important imo, especially since you can use that to buy better RAM/GPU. The newer 3600s can overclock higher at lower voltages (compared to launch day silicon) so that 7% gap can be reduced a bit if he is willing to overclock.

waiting for zen 3 is not the equivalent of waiting 2 years, and its been stated numerous times they are on track for Q3 2020. it will probably have 13+% IPC gains and higher clock speeds. Considering a "4600" is likely to be around $250-ish, i think its worth waiting for if "September launch" rumors are to be believed. If he plans to wait for new GPUs, might aswell wait for the new CPUs so the prices will drop on existing parts or if zen 3 is god tier then a 4600 is an option.

based on my past experience with broadwell, which is basically haswell, i dont the 120fps on midfights is normal. something is wrong, whether its unstable, throttling or maybe its a windows/bloat issue. perhaps i remember wrongly, but my fps was not 120 on midfights on any map, even sunshine.

he didnt increase the voltage so theres room for improvement there, as he isnt using a box cooler. he might have a potato tier processor though, who knows. unlikely to get 240fps from an OC but will hopefully fix the dips he was having. stock settings should be stable, about 3.8-3.9ghz in game hopefully. benchmark before and after see if anything changes.

[quote=Setsul][/quote]
7% higher clock speeds for 37% more cost for a 3600xt isnt worth it (comparing vs 3600), and I doubt that higher performance will be make or break for 240fps in tf2 anyway. value and performance are equally important imo, especially since you can use that to buy better RAM/GPU. The newer 3600s can overclock higher at lower voltages (compared to launch day silicon) so that 7% gap can be reduced a bit if he is willing to overclock.

waiting for zen 3 is not the equivalent of waiting 2 years, and its been stated numerous times they are on track for Q3 2020. it will probably have 13+% IPC gains and higher clock speeds. Considering a "4600" is likely to be around $250-ish, i think its worth waiting for if "September launch" rumors are to be believed. If he plans to wait for new GPUs, might aswell wait for the new CPUs so the prices will drop on existing parts or if zen 3 is god tier then a 4600 is an option.

based on my past experience with broadwell, which is basically haswell, i dont the 120fps on midfights is normal. something is wrong, whether its unstable, throttling or maybe its a windows/bloat issue. perhaps i remember wrongly, but my fps was not 120 on midfights on any map, even sunshine.

he didnt increase the voltage so theres room for improvement there, as he isnt using a box cooler. he might have a potato tier processor though, who knows. unlikely to get 240fps from an OC but will hopefully fix the dips he was having. stock settings should be stable, about 3.8-3.9ghz in game hopefully. benchmark before and after see if anything changes.
3651
#3651
0 Frags +

Like I said, why not a 1600 AF then? If the performance is irrelevant anyway?
Or a 3300X? 4.3 GHz for 120$. By your logic the 3600 is not worth it at all for TF2.
Value is only worth considering after the initial performance goal has been met. Another 50$ for the GPU budget don't increase the fps in TF2. Will another 50$ spent on RAM increase the fps by 7%?
And the 3600XT can't be overclocked? Or do you think it'll somehow overclock worse? Have you already seen reviews that aren't out yet?
Why are you acting like this is a choice only between CPUs? This isn't about another 50$ for 5% performance on a (sub) 200$ CPU purchase, this is about 50$ for 5% performance on a 1000$ build, which is absolutely worth considering.

You're also forgetting that a 3600 is not that much faster than a 4770K single threaded. The "value" of an upgrade providing 25% more fps is drastically different from one that only gets you an extra 15% fps. Like I said the cheapest course of action would be to buy nothing but that also gets him no extra fps. Yes, it's also a GPU upgrade and MT is much better, but is it really worth saving 100$ (or even 200$) and losing half the benefit for TF2? That is not your decision. Neither is it mine. That's why I want to figure out how much of an upgrade he needs before declaring which CPU is or isn't worth the money. I've only said that a 2070 Super and a 3600XT would be something he can afford, not that that is what he needs.

Of course waiting 2 years is not the same as waiting 3 months, but that's still not the same as waiting for a week either. There will always be new CPUs. Waiting for a week should be possible for all but the most impatient. Anything on the scale of months "being worth it" is very subjective.

AMD has not confirmed anything other than 2020. I don't know where you're getting September from.

Yes, congratulations on predicting that AMD will in fact continue to release CPUs between 200 and 800$. I thought they'd stop that and only release >2000$ CPUs starting with Zen3.
Do you want a cookie for predicting that there will be a 4600? I can already tell you that your prediction won't work out because it'll be the 4600X at around 250$ and the 4600 and around 200$.

I'm not sure why you think a single digit percentage overclock would somehow remove the fps dips. Is 4.1 GHz = 120 fps minimum, 4.2 GHz = 160 fps and so on how you think it works?

Like I said, why not a 1600 AF then? If the performance is irrelevant anyway?
Or a 3300X? 4.3 GHz for 120$. By your logic the 3600 is not worth it at all for TF2.
Value is only worth considering after the initial performance goal has been met. Another 50$ for the GPU budget don't increase the fps in TF2. Will another 50$ spent on RAM increase the fps by 7%?
And the 3600XT can't be overclocked? Or do you think it'll somehow overclock worse? Have you already seen reviews that aren't out yet?
Why are you acting like this is a choice only between CPUs? This isn't about another 50$ for 5% performance on a (sub) 200$ CPU purchase, this is about 50$ for 5% performance on a 1000$ build, which is absolutely worth considering.

You're also forgetting that a 3600 is not that much faster than a 4770K single threaded. The "value" of an upgrade providing 25% more fps is drastically different from one that only gets you an extra 15% fps. Like I said the cheapest course of action would be to buy nothing but that also gets him no extra fps. Yes, it's also a GPU upgrade and MT is much better, but is it really worth saving 100$ (or even 200$) and losing half the benefit for TF2? That is not your decision. Neither is it mine. That's why I want to figure out how much of an upgrade he needs before declaring which CPU is or isn't worth the money. I've only said that a 2070 Super and a 3600XT would be something he can afford, not that that is what he needs.

Of course waiting 2 years is not the same as waiting 3 months, but that's still not the same as waiting for a week either. There will always be new CPUs. Waiting for a week should be possible for all but the most impatient. Anything on the scale of months "being worth it" is very subjective.

AMD has not confirmed anything other than 2020. I don't know where you're getting September from.

Yes, congratulations on predicting that AMD will in fact continue to release CPUs between 200 and 800$. I thought they'd stop that and only release >2000$ CPUs starting with Zen3.
Do you want a cookie for predicting that there will be a 4600? I can already tell you that your prediction won't work out because it'll be the 4600X at around 250$ and the 4600 and around 200$.

I'm not sure why you think a single digit percentage overclock would somehow remove the fps dips. Is 4.1 GHz = 120 fps minimum, 4.2 GHz = 160 fps and so on how you think it works?
3652
#3652
0 Frags +

I appreciate the advice and stuff but I think the bad FPS has probably got something to do with my PC overheating or the overclock being messed up somehow because in the past I got pretty decent FPS and things weren't bad at all. Maybe it's just with 240hz I can notice the frames dipping moreso, I wouldn't say it goes down to 120 constantly on mids or anything either it's just sometimes I'll check net graph when it feels super stuttery on a mid and I see numbers like that. I originally set up the overclock fairly long ago when I wasn't very confident messing around with things so I can definitely go in and test it some more. I'm a bit confused about what you're recommending though Setsul, you're trying to say that waiting and getting the 3600XT is worth it right? Or at the very least waiting till it's released and then getting a then discounted 3600? And with regards to overclocking I'm not inherently against it, I just don't want to have to spend a bunch more money on a better motherboard and better cooler and all that stuff. Maybe it's possible to overclock slightly with the stock AMD coolers?
Also, I spoke to a friend who was in a similar situation who got a 3600 and some 3200mhz ram that he overclocked to 3600mhz and said his build gets really good frames definitely over 240 constantly, so I'm not too worried that a new build will be good enough. Clearly my PC is just old and hasn't been cleaned out and is probably overheating so saying it needs like +200% frames from 120 isn't really a fair comparison.

I appreciate the advice and stuff but I think the bad FPS has probably got something to do with my PC overheating or the overclock being messed up somehow because in the past I got pretty decent FPS and things weren't bad at all. Maybe it's just with 240hz I can notice the frames dipping moreso, I wouldn't say it goes down to 120 constantly on mids or anything either it's just sometimes I'll check net graph when it feels super stuttery on a mid and I see numbers like that. I originally set up the overclock fairly long ago when I wasn't very confident messing around with things so I can definitely go in and test it some more. I'm a bit confused about what you're recommending though Setsul, you're trying to say that waiting and getting the 3600XT is worth it right? Or at the very least waiting till it's released and then getting a then discounted 3600? And with regards to overclocking I'm not inherently against it, I just don't want to have to spend a bunch more money on a better motherboard and better cooler and all that stuff. Maybe it's possible to overclock slightly with the stock AMD coolers?
Also, I spoke to a friend who was in a similar situation who got a 3600 and some 3200mhz ram that he overclocked to 3600mhz and said his build gets really good frames definitely over 240 constantly, so I'm not too worried that a new build will be good enough. Clearly my PC is just old and hasn't been cleaned out and is probably overheating so saying it needs like +200% frames from 120 isn't really a fair comparison.
3653
#3653
0 Frags +

Yeah, that's why I asked

SetsulAre the low fps a new problem or just in general and you only now get around to doing something about it?

Of course it's hard to notice when it slowly builds up over the course of 5 years.

I'm saying waiting for 7/7 is worth it because even if you don't get a 3600XT the prices for the 3600(X) could still drop a bit and worst case you've "wasted" a week. Waiting for Zen3 (and new GPUs) in Q4 would get you more bang for your buck but that's obviously a lot longer than just a few days.
Which model mostly depends on how much more performance you actually need. My main worry is that a 3600 should only be about 15% faster than a 4770K single threaded (though I think it might be a bit more in TF2), which isn't that much of an upgrade.

Yes, you can get a slight overclock even with the stock cooler. The main advantage of AMD for overclocking is that you don't need a more expensive CPU or mobo and you get a stock cooler for free anyway so you can always just try it and order an aftermarket cooler later if it's not cooler or quiet enough for your taste.

For now I'm not recommending anything. See what's wrong with your current PC, that might already fix your problem. Then you can consider better oc (maybe delidding and/or a better cooler) vs a new build.

Yeah, that's why I asked [quote=Setsul]Are the low fps a new problem or just in general and you only now get around to doing something about it?[/quote]
Of course it's hard to notice when it slowly builds up over the course of 5 years.

I'm saying waiting for 7/7 is worth it because even if you don't get a 3600XT the prices for the 3600(X) could still drop a bit and worst case you've "wasted" a week. Waiting for Zen3 (and new GPUs) in Q4 would get you more bang for your buck but that's obviously a lot longer than just a few days.
Which model mostly depends on how much more performance you actually need. My main worry is that a 3600 should only be about 15% faster than a 4770K single threaded (though I think it might be a bit more in TF2), which isn't that much of an upgrade.

Yes, you can get a slight overclock even with the stock cooler. The main advantage of AMD for overclocking is that you don't need a more expensive CPU or mobo and you get a stock cooler for free anyway so you can always just try it and order an aftermarket cooler later if it's not cooler or quiet enough for your taste.

For now I'm not recommending anything. See what's wrong with your current PC, that might already fix your problem. Then you can consider better oc (maybe delidding and/or a better cooler) vs a new build.
3654
#3654
-2 Frags +
bearodactyl

Yeah net graph can drop your fps more than normal, so its probaby not as bad as i assumed.

You can overclock a 3600 on a b450 tomahawk max comfortably for example. The stock coolers are a bit trash though so you probably wont get much out of it without losing your mind due to how annoying the stock cooler sounds.

You could gamble and get some cheap Samsung B-Die RAM. Generally 3200mhz cl14 indicates this. And you can use Ryzen DRAM calculator as a base to overclock your memory. B-Die is easier to overclock and better in general. I have had luck doing this and maybe your friend did this too. You can use b-die finder to see if the RAM you are looking at has b-die modules.
RAM overclocking is painful to do because you have to be sure you get no memory errors over a long period of time and the OC may not work at the end of it, so its probably easier to get the ram speed and timings you want.

But its important to keep in mind - if your current system does everything you want it to do, is there a reason to upgrade?
you might get close to 240fps with the right settings.

Setsul

Q3 release for zen 3. September is the speculated release date that ive read from various sites and heard from numerous people on videos etc.

Never said that a performance goal was irrelevant. I said i weigh both performance and value equally. If theres a way to get 240fps at a cheaper cost, why not do it? Otherwise we would recommend i9 9700k 5.1ghz bin from silicon lottery and a 750ti.
And multiple people have posted 3600 benchmarks that seem to indicate that it is possible to get over 240fps in TF2, so theres no real need for anything more powerful if 240fps is the goal. That saved cost can be used for a better GPU, RAM, extra case fans or a cooler, even if it is "only" $50.

Might be the difference between a 2060 S and 2070 S, and we can all agree the stock cooler sucks. Using the B-die trick previously mentioned i easily got 7% more perf compared to stock xmp settings in TF2. And since zen 2 chips can do more than 3466, it will probably be more than that. This is a perfectly valid option.

3600XT will be lower quality silicon than a 3800xt. i dont think the majority will overclock to 4.6Ghz even. How else can a 12 core and 16 core cpu in the same lineup use the same power with near identical clock speeds? Because the 3600XT is a lower quality bin than the top chips. I doubt they would waste many good 4.7ghz 6 core chips on a 3600xt when you need 2 of them for a 3900xt. Just a prediction. But I doubt 3600xts will OC to 4.7.

How can you be so certain that they wont increase the prices for zen 3? They tried that with the navi cards last time. What's stopping them from increasing the prices this time if they have a clearly superior product? There have been no leaks about zen 3 specs or prices yet, so not possible to know this, unless there is some info im unaware about.

If we dont care about increasing minimum fps at all, surely that means a 2.4ghz dual core will feel the same as a 5ghz core i9 right? 240fps is the goal and the closer you are to it the better. i said 240fps wont be attainable so not sure where you got those numbers from. pretty sure those numbers wont "fix" the dips either.

[quote=bearodactyl][/quote]

Yeah net graph can drop your fps more than normal, so its probaby not as bad as i assumed.

You can overclock a 3600 on a b450 tomahawk max comfortably for example. The stock coolers are a bit trash though so you probably wont get much out of it without losing your mind due to how annoying the stock cooler sounds.

You could gamble and get some cheap Samsung B-Die RAM. Generally 3200mhz cl14 indicates this. And you can use Ryzen DRAM calculator as a base to overclock your memory. B-Die is easier to overclock and better in general. I have had luck doing this and maybe your friend did this too. You can use b-die finder to see if the RAM you are looking at has b-die modules.
RAM overclocking is painful to do because you have to be sure you get no memory errors over a long period of time and the OC may not work at the end of it, so its probably easier to get the ram speed and timings you want.

But its important to keep in mind - if your current system does everything you want it to do, is there a reason to upgrade?
you might get [url=https://www.teamfortress.tv/post/520679/tf2-benchmarks]close to 240fps[/url] with the right settings.

[quote=Setsul][/quote]
[url=https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Ryzen-4000-Zen-3-and-7-nm-Vermeer-processors-remain-on-track-for-a-Q3-2020-no-Intel-Comet-Lake-S-related-delay-AMD-spokesperson-confirms.477583.0.html]Q3 release for zen 3[/url]. September is the speculated release date that ive read from various sites and heard from numerous people on videos etc.

Never said that a performance goal was irrelevant. I said i weigh both performance and value equally. If theres a way to get 240fps at a cheaper cost, why not do it? Otherwise we would recommend i9 9700k 5.1ghz bin from silicon lottery and a 750ti.
And multiple people have posted 3600 benchmarks that seem to indicate that it is possible to get over [url=https://www.teamfortress.tv/post/1000506/tf2-benchmarks]240fps in TF2[/url], so theres no real need for anything more powerful if 240fps is the goal. That saved cost can be used for a better GPU, RAM, extra case fans or a cooler, even if it is "only" $50.

Might be the difference between a 2060 S and 2070 S, and we can all agree the stock cooler sucks. Using the B-die trick previously mentioned i easily got 7% more perf compared to stock xmp settings in TF2. And since zen 2 chips can do more than 3466, it will probably be more than that. This is a perfectly valid option.

3600XT will be lower quality silicon than a 3800xt. i dont think the majority will overclock to 4.6Ghz even. How else can a 12 core and 16 core cpu in the same lineup use the same power with near identical clock speeds? Because the 3600XT is a lower quality bin than the top chips. I doubt they would waste many good 4.7ghz 6 core chips on a 3600xt when you need 2 of them for a 3900xt. Just a prediction. But I doubt 3600xts will OC to 4.7.

How can you be so certain that they wont increase the prices for zen 3? They tried that with the [url=https://www.guru3d.com/news-story/amd-lower-prices-for-radeon-rx-5700-navi-cards349-usd-and-399-for-the-xt-usd.html]navi cards last time[/url]. What's stopping them from increasing the prices this time if they have a clearly superior product? There have been no leaks about zen 3 specs or prices yet, so not possible to know this, unless there is some info im unaware about.

If we dont care about increasing minimum fps at all, surely that means a 2.4ghz dual core will feel the same as a 5ghz core i9 right? 240fps is the goal and the closer you are to it the better. i said 240fps wont be attainable so not sure where you got those numbers from. pretty sure those numbers wont "fix" the dips either.
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#3655
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That's a secondary source mixing speculation with what AMD said.
https://www.techpowerup.com/268650/amd-confirms-vermeer-zen-3-not-delayed-to-launch-in-2020
"AMD in an official briefing call with us confirmed that the company's "Zen 3" client processors are on-track for launch within 2020."

The way the tapeouts are scheduled means that they could release something in September. If everything goes as planned, which is never guaranteed.
The rumours were that that something would most likely be Milan (EPYC, server CPUs) and that Vermeer (Desktop CPUs) might even be delayed to 2021. AMD denied that, but only said they were on track for 2020. Because the source are the client-segment product managers it is assumed that that includes at least some client CPUs.
We still don't know when and which models exactly. Launches are always spread out over a couple of months so even if you're 100% certain that some Vermeer CPUs will be released in September that doesn't mean we'll see a 4600(X). That could very well take until December.
So stop acting like AMD confirmed a 4600 for September.

The rumours of delays were fueled by Matisse Refresh and yes, that is different from the 2700X Anniversary Edition. The AE was purely cosmetic.
Releasing actually different CPUs, no matter how minor that difference is, in the same segment within 3 months is almost unheard of. Though in this case I can definitely see it being a response to Comet Lake.

Your argument about overclocking makes no sense. What does the 3800XT have to do with this? Why does that mean a 3600XT will overclock worse than a 3600?
You also don't know how binning works. Silicon "quality" is not some one dimensional parameter. It's a combination of frequency, voltage and power consumption. There is some correlation, but a core using less power at the same frequency does not guarantee it can't reach a higher frequency.
And the trick to getting the same power consumption with more cores and near identical clock speeds is the "near".
Power consumption increases massively for Zen2 with every little bit of extra frequency when you're close to or above 4 GHz.
https://images.anandtech.com/doci/15043/3950X%20PowerLoading.png
https://images.anandtech.com/doci/15043/3950X%20RHP%20Freq2.png
https://images.anandtech.com/doci/15043/3950X%20Power.png
A core at 4.125 GHz needs 14-15W, while at 3.875 GHz it only needs 7-7.5W. A measly 250 MHz extra double the power consumption.

About prices: This is about branding. Navi got different numbers and AMD tried to raise the prices at the same time. It didn't work.
You want the same model numbers (with a different digit for the generation obviously) to stay around the same price. You change how many cores/threads and what frequency the customer gets at that price. That's why Intel "added" HTT to the i5s instead of making i7s cheaper. That's why they added i9s to cover 400-500$ instead of letting i7s cover 300-500$. That's why a 3950X exists, which got 33% more cores and is 50% more expensive than a 3900X instead of selling the 3800X as 3750X. Because x700(X) models in AMD's naming scheme shall cover the low 300s range. That's why the 2700X is called 2700X even though it's faster than the 1800X. Because it doesn't cost 400$.
That is why I can guarantee that there will be a 4900X at around 500$ and there will be a 12 core, but I can't guarantee that they will be the same. Same for 3700(X)/3800(X) and 8 cores.

About fps:
https://www.teamfortress.tv/post/902719/tf2-benchmarks
Better comparision because the 4790K is clocked higher.
So yeah, Haswell needs somewhere between 4.4 and 5.0 GHz for 240 fps, depending on the settings. The lower end of that is definitely doable.

Can you not see the problem? If his current pc could get him 240 avg and a 3600 gets him 270 fps average, but his problem is that he gets drops to 120 how do you expect the 3600 to solve that?

Fakeunlikely to get 240fps from an OC but will hopefully fix the dips he was having.

You said yourself that an OC not even high enough to get 240 fps would somehow fix the dips.
I still don't know how you imagine that would work.

That's a secondary source mixing speculation with what AMD said.
https://www.techpowerup.com/268650/amd-confirms-vermeer-zen-3-not-delayed-to-launch-in-2020
"AMD in an official briefing call with us confirmed that the company's "Zen 3" client processors are on-track for launch within 2020."

The way the tapeouts are scheduled means that they could release something in September. If everything goes as planned, which is never guaranteed.
The rumours were that that something would most likely be Milan (EPYC, server CPUs) and that Vermeer (Desktop CPUs) might even be delayed to 2021. AMD denied that, but only said they were on track for 2020. Because the source are the client-segment product managers it is assumed that that includes at least some client CPUs.
We still don't know when and which models exactly. Launches are always spread out over a couple of months so even if you're 100% certain that some Vermeer CPUs will be released in September that doesn't mean we'll see a 4600(X). That could very well take until December.
So stop acting like AMD confirmed a 4600 for September.

The rumours of delays were fueled by Matisse Refresh and yes, that is different from the 2700X Anniversary Edition. The AE was purely cosmetic.
Releasing actually different CPUs, no matter how minor that difference is, in the same segment within 3 months is almost unheard of. Though in this case I can definitely see it being a response to Comet Lake.

Your argument about overclocking makes no sense. What does the 3800XT have to do with this? Why does that mean a 3600XT will overclock worse than a 3600?
You also don't know how binning works. Silicon "quality" is not some one dimensional parameter. It's a combination of frequency, voltage and power consumption. There is some correlation, but a core using less power at the same frequency does not guarantee it can't reach a higher frequency.
And the trick to getting the same power consumption with more cores and near identical clock speeds is the "near".
Power consumption increases massively for Zen2 with every little bit of extra frequency when you're close to or above 4 GHz.
https://images.anandtech.com/doci/15043/3950X%20PowerLoading.png
https://images.anandtech.com/doci/15043/3950X%20RHP%20Freq2.png
https://images.anandtech.com/doci/15043/3950X%20Power.png
A core at 4.125 GHz needs 14-15W, while at 3.875 GHz it only needs 7-7.5W. A measly 250 MHz extra double the power consumption.

About prices: This is about branding. Navi got different numbers and AMD tried to raise the prices at the same time. It didn't work.
You want the same model numbers (with a different digit for the generation obviously) to stay around the same price. You change how many cores/threads and what frequency the customer gets at that price. That's why Intel "added" HTT to the i5s instead of making i7s cheaper. That's why they added i9s to cover 400-500$ instead of letting i7s cover 300-500$. That's why a 3950X exists, which got 33% more cores and is 50% more expensive than a 3900X instead of selling the 3800X as 3750X. Because x700(X) models in AMD's naming scheme shall cover the low 300s range. That's why the 2700X is called 2700X even though it's faster than the 1800X. Because it doesn't cost 400$.
That is why I can guarantee that there will be a 4900X at around 500$ and there will be a 12 core, but I can't guarantee that they will be the same. Same for 3700(X)/3800(X) and 8 cores.


About fps:
https://www.teamfortress.tv/post/902719/tf2-benchmarks
Better comparision because the 4790K is clocked higher.
So yeah, Haswell needs somewhere between 4.4 and 5.0 GHz for 240 fps, depending on the settings. The lower end of that is definitely doable.

Can you not see the problem? If his current pc could get him 240 avg and a 3600 gets him 270 fps average, but his problem is that he gets drops to 120 how do you expect the 3600 to solve that?

[quote=Fake]unlikely to get 240fps from an OC but will hopefully fix the dips he was having.[/quote]
You said yourself that an OC not even high enough to get 240 fps would somehow fix the dips.
I still don't know how you imagine that would work.
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