Other than the other team not playing sniper.
What makes a good koth map?
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TF2 General Discussion
being designed like bagel so most offclasses are bad most of the time
being designed like bagel so most offclasses are bad most of the time
Product and to a lesser extent Bagel are interesting cause there are many paths to the point or the many different positions that can influence the point. I think this is a big reason clearcut wasn't too successful, the only meaningful positions to influence point are from being on top of a shed, inside a shed or being on the floor in front of the point, and it's all pretty Clear Cut what classes excel at playing those positions (soldiers are good indoors, demoman can sit and stare at point and tag guys on shed, scunts love height).
forward holds are also a big thing. I think strong forward holds are somewhat alright if the trip from spawn to attempting to break it is short (product forward is strong but at least u arent walking for 10 hours through a massive lobby). Ideally, you avoid a super strong forward hold and allow for teams to take aggro positions that they have to be forced off before a normal fight on point.
Product and to a lesser extent Bagel are interesting cause there are many paths to the point or the many different positions that can influence the point. I think this is a big reason clearcut wasn't too successful, the only meaningful positions to influence point are from being on top of a shed, inside a shed or being on the floor in front of the point, and it's all pretty Clear Cut what classes excel at playing those positions (soldiers are good indoors, demoman can sit and stare at point and tag guys on shed, scunts love height).
forward holds are also a big thing. I think strong forward holds are somewhat alright if the trip from spawn to attempting to break it is short (product forward is strong but at least u arent walking for 10 hours through a massive lobby). Ideally, you avoid a super strong forward hold and allow for teams to take aggro positions that they have to be forced off before a normal fight on point.
forward holds are also a big thing. I think strong forward holds are somewhat alright if the trip from spawn to attempting to break it is short (product forward is strong but at least u arent walking for 10 hours through a massive lobby). Ideally, you avoid a super strong forward hold and allow for teams to take aggro positions that they have to be forced off before a normal fight on point.
One reason I like Bagel a lot more than Product, even sniper aside, is that it's way less advantageous for defenders.
On Bagel, the forward hold is easier to break. But beyond that, you're also not marching up hill to get to the point area which makes it a little easier to get back to a sort of neutral-ish state. And once you're back to neutral-ish positions, it's in favor on the attacking team due to the spawn advantage.
The point is also significantly easier to edge and force the other team to actually engage with you. While yeah it's effective to send people behind and make plays off that on Clearcut/Product, it's just harder to coordinate and is more punishing if you're not a high level team. Clearing out a house then touching the point is just way simpler to execute for 95% of teams.
The most frustrating part of offense on KOTH is finally working your way into the main area and then someone feeds and you have to start all over from step 1. On Bagel, it's at least not as tough to get past the first part. I'd also argue on Bagel, even if someone dies, it's also less punishing because it's harder for the other team to send someone behind and use their numbers advantage to pinch and wipe you. It feels safer to linger and try to equal out kills even when you're down 1 on Bagel.
On a side note, I do think that the new version of Clearcut making it easier to edge does make it quite a bit better, though I still haven't played it a ton.
One reason I like Bagel a lot more than Product, even sniper aside, is that it's way less advantageous for defenders.
On Bagel, the forward hold is easier to break. But beyond that, you're also not marching up hill to get to the point area which makes it a little easier to get back to a sort of neutral-ish state. And once you're back to neutral-ish positions, it's in favor on the attacking team due to the spawn advantage.
The point is also significantly easier to edge and force the other team to actually engage with you. While yeah it's effective to send people behind and make plays off that on Clearcut/Product, it's just harder to coordinate and is more punishing if you're not a high level team. Clearing out a house then touching the point is just way simpler to execute for 95% of teams.
The most frustrating part of offense on KOTH is finally working your way into the main area and then someone feeds and you have to start all over from step 1. On Bagel, it's at least not as tough to get past the first part. I'd also argue on Bagel, even if someone dies, it's also less punishing because it's harder for the other team to send someone behind and use their numbers advantage to pinch and wipe you. It feels safer to linger and try to equal out kills even when you're down 1 on Bagel.
On a side note, I do think that the new version of Clearcut making it easier to edge does make it quite a bit better, though I still haven't played it a ton.
On Bagel, the forward hold is easier to break. But beyond that, you're also not marching up hill to get to the point area which makes it a little easier to get back to a sort of neutral-ish state. And once you're back to neutral-ish positions, it's in favor on the attacking team due to the spawn advantage.
The point is also significantly easier to edge and force the other team to actually engage with you. While yeah it's effective to send people behind and make plays off that on Clearcut/Product, it's just harder to coordinate and is more punishing if you're not a high level team. Clearing out a house then touching the point is just way simpler to execute for 95% of teams.
The most frustrating part of offense on KOTH is finally working your way into the main area and then someone feeds and you have to start all over from step 1. On Bagel, it's at least not as tough to get past the first part. I'd also argue on Bagel, even if someone dies, it's also less punishing because it's harder for the other team to send someone behind and use their numbers advantage to pinch and wipe you. It feels safer to linger and try to equal out kills even when you're down 1 on Bagel.
On a side note, I do think that the new version of Clearcut making it easier to edge does make it quite a bit better, though I still haven't played it a ton.
From the pov of a map maker, in the last 5 years all my serious koth maps have followed a similar design theory to below:
1) Health and ammo should be placed not in the point area, but in a "staging area" just before it.
2) Players should be forced to stand on the point in order to see the enemy team's routes into the greater point area.
3) Although attackers should have flanks into the point area, it should be difficult to use these flanks to get behind attackers and to their spawn.
4) The forward hold of the team who owns the point should never occupy the enemy team's spawn area.
5) It should be impossible for somebody on the team who owns the point to die, respawn and come back before the enemy team captures the point.
you can read each point in more depth in this post by tiftid on tf2maps
https://tf2maps.net/threads/guide-what-makes-a-good-koth-map.44847/
From the pov of a map maker, in the last 5 years all my serious koth maps have followed a similar design theory to below:
1) Health and ammo should be placed not in the point area, but in a "staging area" just before it.
2) Players should be forced to stand on the point in order to see the enemy team's routes into the greater point area.
3) Although attackers should have flanks into the point area, it should be difficult to use these flanks to get behind attackers and to their spawn.
4) The forward hold of the team who owns the point should never occupy the enemy team's spawn area.
5) It should be impossible for somebody on the team who owns the point to die, respawn and come back before the enemy team captures the point.
you can read each point in more depth in this post by tiftid on tf2maps
https://tf2maps.net/threads/guide-what-makes-a-good-koth-map.44847/
1) Health and ammo should be placed not in the point area, but in a "staging area" just before it.
2) Players should be forced to stand on the point in order to see the enemy team's routes into the greater point area.
3) Although attackers should have flanks into the point area, it should be difficult to use these flanks to get behind attackers and to their spawn.
4) The forward hold of the team who owns the point should never occupy the enemy team's spawn area.
5) It should be impossible for somebody on the team who owns the point to die, respawn and come back before the enemy team captures the point.
you can read each point in more depth in this post by tiftid on tf2maps
https://tf2maps.net/threads/guide-what-makes-a-good-koth-map.44847/
we really couldnt make it past the first day of the new year before making this thread again huh
we really couldnt make it past the first day of the new year before making this thread again huh
One thing I noticed about both bagel and product is that the places forward holders stand are all more or less parallel with each other no matter which door they're holding. I think this is important because if someone fails to hold a door that is placed closer to the point than the other doors then all of the sudden the attackers have wrapped behind the defenders.
One thing I noticed about both bagel and product is that the places forward holders stand are all more or less parallel with each other no matter which door they're holding. I think this is important because if someone fails to hold a door that is placed closer to the point than the other doors then all of the sudden the attackers have wrapped behind the defenders.
In addition to what everyone else has said, the map should reward "fun" strategies and punish "lame" or "boring" strategies. I think we tend to like map design that leads to constant skirmishes. Think about how easy it is to push houses or pressure point on bagel, or to send people behind or push concrete on product. On clearcut, pushing the roofs is really hard and pressuring the point is also annoying so people just send their soldiers behind (BORING!!!!)
In addition to what everyone else has said, the map should reward "fun" strategies and punish "lame" or "boring" strategies. I think we tend to like map design that leads to constant skirmishes. Think about how easy it is to push houses or pressure point on bagel, or to send people behind or push concrete on product. On clearcut, pushing the roofs is really hard and pressuring the point is also annoying so people just send their soldiers behind (BORING!!!!)
Walrexwe really couldnt make it past the first day of the new year before making this thread again huh
you're telling me that people want to discuss team fortress 2 on teamfortress.tv?
[quote=Walrex]we really couldnt make it past the first day of the new year before making this thread again huh[/quote]
you're telling me that people want to discuss team fortress 2 on teamfortress.tv?
you're telling me that people want to discuss team fortress 2 on teamfortress.tv?
a third koth map in the pool would be cool. just make sure it's not a sniper fest
a third koth map in the pool would be cool. just make sure it's not a sniper fest
i know this isnt helpful as a blueprint for creating new koth maps but the main thing that makes both good koth maps good is that soldier is the most important class in evens
i know this isnt helpful as a blueprint for creating new koth maps but the main thing that makes both good koth maps good is that soldier is the most important class in evens
brodyi know this isnt helpful as a blueprint for creating new koth maps but the main thing that makes both good koth maps good is that soldier is the most important class in evens
I am by no means saying this from an expectation that it would turn out well, but I always thought it would be sick to have a KOTH map with a bunch of integrated surf routes throughout the map.
[quote=brody]i know this isnt helpful as a blueprint for creating new koth maps but the main thing that makes both good koth maps good is that soldier is the most important class in evens[/quote]
I am by no means saying this from an expectation that it would turn out well, but I always thought it would be sick to have a KOTH map with a bunch of integrated surf routes throughout the map.
I am by no means saying this from an expectation that it would turn out well, but I always thought it would be sick to have a KOTH map with a bunch of integrated surf routes throughout the map.
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