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Why don't roamers offclass?
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#1
0 Frags +

I might sound crazy to some people, I'm not very high up on the competitive chain, only silver level roamer.

But how come at the higher levels roamers never offclass? Scouts are so powerful in the stalemates and the only point it seems to make sense to switch scout for another class is on last. Would it not make more sense to bomb in as roamer for an attempt at a play then switch to sniper or spy?

When you switch off a scout you lose denying potential to bombers, but with a roamer, denying is unreliable since you are not always going to hit the airshot.

So sorry if I sound crazy, but why do roamers never offclass at really high levels like prem or invite?

I might sound crazy to some people, I'm not very high up on the competitive chain, only silver level roamer.

But how come at the higher levels roamers never offclass? Scouts are so powerful in the stalemates and the only point it seems to make sense to switch scout for another class is on last. Would it not make more sense to bomb in as roamer for an attempt at a play then switch to sniper or spy?

When you switch off a scout you lose denying potential to bombers, but with a roamer, denying is unreliable since you are not always going to hit the airshot.

So sorry if I sound crazy, but why do roamers never offclass at really high levels like prem or invite?
2
#2
2 Frags +

Usually the hitscan mains like sniper more than the projectile main
But also losing a spam class on flank means even more opportunities for you med to get sacked on or for people to get behind, don't think a soldiers only job in a stalemate is to go for the airshots, instead his job is to help prevent the situation where an airshot has to be even gone for

Usually the hitscan mains like sniper more than the projectile main
But also losing a spam class on flank means even more opportunities for you med to get sacked on or for people to get behind, don't think a soldiers only job in a stalemate is to go for the airshots, instead his job is to help prevent the situation where an airshot has to be even gone for
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#3
8 Frags +

spam is important on the flank on most maps

spam is important on the flank on most maps
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#4
17 Frags +

They're purists, detesting any deviation from meta classes

It's why you ll often see them target snipers on product

They're purists, detesting any deviation from meta classes

It's why you ll often see them target snipers on product
5
#5
3 Frags +

Roamers do offclass, or in some cases the roamer goes for a play to break the stalemate and has a scout run back to the spawn so that the scout can offclass.
Also, denying people bombing as scout doesn't work against and already popped uber. As a matter of fact, the roamer can play an important part in forcing the uber of the enemy team earlier because he can spam.
And in addition, scout players tent to have better hitscan than players that main a projectile class.

Roamers do offclass, or in some cases the roamer goes for a play to break the stalemate and has a scout run back to the spawn so that the scout can offclass.
Also, denying people bombing as scout doesn't work against and already popped uber. As a matter of fact, the roamer can play an important part in forcing the uber of the enemy team earlier because he can spam.
And in addition, scout players tent to have better hitscan than players that main a projectile class.
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#6
-27 Frags +

because the people who play roamer are not as skilled as people who play scout. rockets are easy to aim because of splash, so it is easier to maintain a higher level of play. people who play scout well are more mechanically talented, so that is why i think you see more scouts switching to other classes. for 20b, ash would do a lot of the offclassing, but he also ended up playing scout for froyo, so hes just a good player

because the people who play roamer are not as skilled as people who play scout. rockets are easy to aim because of splash, so it is easier to maintain a higher level of play. people who play scout well are more mechanically talented, so that is why i think you see more scouts switching to other classes. for 20b, ash would do a lot of the offclassing, but he also ended up playing scout for froyo, so hes just a good player
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#7
2 Frags +

Explosives stop people from walking forward, not hitscan. If you are in a defensive position, you usually can't afford to lose out on the entrance denying spam that a soldier provides since it gives the offensive team much more space to work with.

However, in an offensive situation, where holding chokes against peeking and possible sacrifices isn't super important since defensive teams aren't in a position to lose players, anyone besides the demo and medic can off class without hurting the team. Therefore, you usually just have your best player on the offclass play that offclass. This still tends to be scouts because a lot of the mechanics transfer from scout to the offclasses and because they probably play them more due to being the offclass players in defensive positions.

Explosives stop people from walking forward, not hitscan. If you are in a defensive position, you usually can't afford to lose out on the entrance denying spam that a soldier provides since it gives the offensive team much more space to work with.

However, in an offensive situation, where holding chokes against peeking and possible sacrifices isn't super important since defensive teams aren't in a position to lose players, anyone besides the demo and medic can off class without hurting the team. Therefore, you usually just have your best player on the offclass play that offclass. This still tends to be scouts because a lot of the mechanics transfer from scout to the offclasses and because they probably play them more due to being the offclass players in defensive positions.
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#8
-3 Frags +

roamer mains usually have a high sens so they BLOW at sniper

roamer mains usually have a high sens so they BLOW at sniper
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#9
22 Frags +
Flex: Muuki

does this count

[quote]Flex: Muuki[/quote]
does this count
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#10
2 Frags +

Can only speak for myself but I fucking blow on sniper and spy hence why I rarely offclass

Can only speak for myself but I fucking blow on sniper and spy hence why I rarely offclass
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#11
8 Frags +

a soldier can defend a choke better than a scout can, and this is the general reason imo why they don't offclass as much. scouts on last are normally just stood around holding their dicks

a soldier can defend a choke better than a scout can, and this is the general reason imo why they don't offclass as much. scouts on last are normally just stood around holding their dicks
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#12
2 Frags +

viaduct is a pretty big exception in that you pretty much always want two scouts so usually either the roamer goes sniper or a scout goes sniper and one of the soldiers goes scout (generally the pocket cause shotgun aim transfers somewhat to scout hitscan)

driftaroamer mains usually have a high sens so they BLOW at sniper

pretty sure thaigrr uses a crazy high sens and he's kinda nuts at sniper... (maybe he's the exception that proves the rule)

viaduct is a pretty big exception in that you pretty much always want two scouts so usually either the roamer goes sniper or a scout goes sniper and one of the soldiers goes scout (generally the pocket cause shotgun aim transfers somewhat to scout hitscan)

[quote=drifta]roamer mains usually have a high sens so they BLOW at sniper[/quote]
pretty sure thaigrr uses a crazy high sens and he's kinda nuts at sniper... (maybe he's the exception that proves the rule)
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#13
0 Frags +

Thanks for all the posts from people. The general consensus seems to be this. Most roamers suck at offclassing (I can confirm this I suck at sniper) and roamers are better at defending.

Stoch seems to think that roamer offclassing could do well on attack like if you're on mid or pushing last. What do you guys think of that?

Thanks for all the posts from people. The general consensus seems to be this. Most roamers suck at offclassing (I can confirm this I suck at sniper) and roamers are better at defending.

Stoch seems to think that roamer offclassing could do well on attack like if you're on mid or pushing last. What do you guys think of that?
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#14
0 Frags +

IIRC when zebbosai played roamer he sniped quite a bit

(and I think TviQ may have played roamer in a team or two? But yeah if a good sniper ends up on roamer he'll usually give it a shot, there's no meta reason against it I think)

IIRC when zebbosai played roamer he sniped quite a bit

(and I think TviQ may have played roamer in a team or two? But yeah if a good sniper ends up on roamer he'll usually give it a shot, there's no meta reason against it I think)
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#15
13 Frags +

It's definitely viable. Muuki, Jukebox and plenty of other soldiers do/did it with great success.

I wouldn't say it's because roamers suck at offclassing. There's just more closet sniper mains among scouts.
And it's just sort of the accepted meta for a lot of players that scouts play the offclasses.

Also if you sac something a good ole roamer bomb is usually more succesful than a scout trying to get in. So having a sniper and a roamer at the same time allows you to exploit a sniper pick more if the intention is to force/kill a med

I'm not an experienced comp player by any means but that's how I see it

It's definitely viable. Muuki, Jukebox and plenty of other soldiers do/did it with great success.

I wouldn't say it's because roamers suck at offclassing. There's just more closet sniper mains among scouts.
And it's just sort of the accepted meta for a lot of players that scouts play the offclasses.

Also if you sac something a good ole roamer bomb is usually more succesful than a scout trying to get in. So having a sniper and a roamer at the same time allows you to exploit a sniper pick more if the intention is to force/kill a med

I'm not an experienced comp player by any means but that's how I see it
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#16
2 Frags +
naturespiritThanks for all the posts from people. The general consensus seems to be this. Most roamers suck at offclassing (I can confirm this I suck at sniper) and roamers are better at defending.

Stoch seems to think that roamer offclassing could do well on attack like if you're on mid or pushing last. What do you guys think of that?

definitely map dependent and dependent on your individual skill level on certain classes
for example when pushing badlands last and pretty much everywhere on granary (as well as other chokey maps) soldier is really good for spamming so generally scouts are the ones who offclass on those points, whereas like i said before, on viaduct scout is insanely good so usually you'll see the roamer offclass
in last season's esea grand finals for example, garbuglio went machina sniper on via even though yomps and corsa are both good snipers, because having two scouts is just so strong

[quote=naturespirit]Thanks for all the posts from people. The general consensus seems to be this. Most roamers suck at offclassing (I can confirm this I suck at sniper) and roamers are better at defending.

Stoch seems to think that roamer offclassing could do well on attack like if you're on mid or pushing last. What do you guys think of that?[/quote]
definitely map dependent and dependent on your individual skill level on certain classes
for example when pushing badlands last and pretty much everywhere on granary (as well as other chokey maps) soldier is really good for spamming so generally scouts are the ones who offclass on those points, whereas like i said before, on viaduct scout is insanely good so usually you'll see the roamer offclass
in last season's esea grand finals for example, garbuglio went machina sniper on via even though yomps and corsa are both good snipers, because having two scouts is just so strong
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#17
40 Frags +
cozenbecause the people who play roamer are not as skilled as people who play scout. rockets are easy to aim because of splash, so it is easier to maintain a higher level of play. people who play scout well are more mechanically talented, so that is why i think you see more scouts switching to other classes. for 20b, ash would do a lot of the offclassing, but he also ended up playing scout for froyo, so hes just a good player

lol at the people that upvoted this garbage post because it's cozen

[quote=cozen]because the people who play roamer are not as skilled as people who play scout. rockets are easy to aim because of splash, so it is easier to maintain a higher level of play. people who play scout well are more mechanically talented, so that is why i think you see more scouts switching to other classes. for 20b, ash would do a lot of the offclassing, but he also ended up playing scout for froyo, so hes just a good player[/quote]

lol at the people that upvoted this garbage post because it's cozen
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#18
5 Frags +
Tambocozenbecause the people who play roamer are not as skilled as people who play scout. rockets are easy to aim because of splash, so it is easier to maintain a higher level of play. people who play scout well are more mechanically talented, so that is why i think you see more scouts switching to other classes. for 20b, ash would do a lot of the offclassing, but he also ended up playing scout for froyo, so hes just a good player
lol at the people that upvoted this garbage post because it's cozen

Having a scout alive over a soldier alive is all point and situationally dependent. If you have disadvantage, having your scout off class is simply better. If it's even ubers, a lot of the time, having 2 soldiers is more optimal than 2 scouts because soldiers are better for baiting when your sniper is peeking a corner. On top of that, they're better to fall back on because pushing into 2 soldiers is obviously more difficult. If you're running more of a permanent off class, you want two scouts rather than two soldiers.

but despite ALL that, the player that off classes over the other is and should be 100% based on who is better (unless you're playing viaduct like bear mentioned), or if multiple people on your team are good, who spawned to off class at a better time. It is definitely true that scouts mains have better raw aim than soldier mains, not all the time, but more often than not.

[quote=Tambo][quote=cozen]because the people who play roamer are not as skilled as people who play scout. rockets are easy to aim because of splash, so it is easier to maintain a higher level of play. people who play scout well are more mechanically talented, so that is why i think you see more scouts switching to other classes. for 20b, ash would do a lot of the offclassing, but he also ended up playing scout for froyo, so hes just a good player[/quote]

lol at the people that upvoted this garbage post because it's cozen[/quote]

Having a scout alive over a soldier alive is all point and situationally dependent. If you have disadvantage, having your scout off class is simply better. If it's even ubers, a lot of the time, having 2 soldiers is more optimal than 2 scouts because soldiers are better for baiting when your sniper is peeking a corner. On top of that, they're better to fall back on because pushing into 2 soldiers is obviously more difficult. If you're running more of a permanent off class, you want two scouts rather than two soldiers.

but despite ALL that, the player that off classes over the other is and should be 100% based on who is better (unless you're playing viaduct like bear mentioned), or if multiple people on your team are good, who spawned to off class at a better time. It is definitely true that scouts mains have better raw aim than soldier mains, not all the time, but more often than not.
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#19
-1 Frags +

Offclassing is one of those things that require map and game intuition to apply correctly. It never crosses the mind of a huge portion of the people who play comp why they are playing the way that they should be. They just learned to mimic what others did, imitating the meta developed by the true great players. They do not understand why it's meant to work in the situations that it does and as a result they never question if there could be something different they could be doing that could be more effective. This stagnation is one of the two real answers to "why don't roamers offclass", which is a very good question indeed when the Scout, now more than ever before, dominates the playing field.

The second answer is that 6s meta is built upon speed and versatility. The cookie cutter class composition is useful and effective in virtually every situation and has the mechanics to very quickly move from A to B. There is no class that the roamer can offclass to that can top its speed, but there are classes that he can offclass to that can grant a greater situational advantage. It then depends on your analysis of the situation to determine what is right.

In EU at least, offclassing has always been commonplace in the highest tier, but they are so much more careful when they do it and how they apply it because when you're at the top level then you're against teams that will immediately exploit any weakness that they will find. This leads to a vicious cycle of teams choosing not to offclass because they've not trained enough to handle any situation like that, so they never learn how to play with offclasses more efficiently.

AdebisiThey're purists, detesting any deviation from meta classes

It's why you ll often see them target snipers on product

And when one says offclassing one can say the same about the use of certain unlocks or certain other tactics. TF2 comp has a very bad habit of "do, don't think".

Offclassing is one of those things that require map and game intuition to apply correctly. It never crosses the mind of a huge portion of the people who play comp why they are playing the way that they should be. They just learned to mimic what others did, imitating the meta developed by the true great players. They do not understand why it's meant to work in the situations that it does and as a result they never question if there could be something different they could be doing that could be more effective. This stagnation is one of the two real answers to "why don't roamers offclass", which is a very good question indeed when the Scout, now more than ever before, dominates the playing field.

The second answer is that 6s meta is built upon speed and versatility. The cookie cutter class composition is useful and effective in virtually every situation and has the mechanics to very quickly move from A to B. There is no class that the roamer can offclass to that can top its speed, but there are classes that he can offclass to that can grant a greater situational advantage. It then depends on your analysis of the situation to determine what is right.

In EU at least, offclassing has always been commonplace in the highest tier, but they are so much more careful when they do it and how they apply it because when you're at the top level then you're against teams that will immediately exploit any weakness that they will find. This leads to a vicious cycle of teams choosing not to offclass because they've not trained enough to handle any situation like that, so they never learn how to play with offclasses more efficiently.

[quote=Adebisi]They're purists, detesting any deviation from meta classes

It's why you ll often see them target snipers on product[/quote]

And when one says offclassing one can say the same about the use of certain unlocks or certain other tactics. TF2 comp has a very bad habit of "do, don't think".
20
#20
-7 Frags +
cozenbecause the people who play roamer are not as skilled as people who play scout. rockets are easy to aim because of splash, so it is easier to maintain a higher level of play. people who play scout well are more mechanically talented, so that is why i think you see more scouts switching to other classes. for 20b, ash would do a lot of the offclassing, but he also ended up playing scout for froyo, so hes just a good player

this may be the cringiest thing I've read on tftv lmao, you aren't a fucking cyberninja just cause you grind dm.

[quote=cozen]because the people who play roamer are not as skilled as people who play scout. rockets are easy to aim because of splash, so it is easier to maintain a higher level of play. people who play scout well are more mechanically talented, so that is why i think you see more scouts switching to other classes. for 20b, ash would do a lot of the offclassing, but he also ended up playing scout for froyo, so hes just a good player[/quote]

this may be the cringiest thing I've read on tftv lmao, you aren't a fucking cyberninja just cause you grind dm.
21
#21
0 Frags +

playing lots of scout makes you very good at sniper. playing lots of soldier doesnt really, but soldier players can still be really good snipers. (a decent amount of scout players are sniper mains too)

playing lots of scout makes you very good at sniper. playing lots of soldier doesnt really, but soldier players can still be really good snipers. (a decent amount of scout players are sniper mains too)
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#22
1 Frags +

mackey.

mackey.
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#23
2 Frags +

Slem and I both snipe, just depends on who died when and what the situation is. For the most part you want to have a soldier holding flank because rockets are better than a scatter at denying a door

Slem and I both snipe, just depends on who died when and what the situation is. For the most part you want to have a soldier holding flank because rockets are better than a scatter at denying a door
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#24
-2 Frags +

1

1
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#25
5 Frags +

200hp>125hp

200hp>125hp
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#26
0 Frags +
dod3fFinnigancozenbecause the people who play roamer are not as skilled as people who play scout. rockets are easy to aim because of splash, so it is easier to maintain a higher level of play. people who play scout well are more mechanically talented, so that is why i think you see more scouts switching to other classes. for 20b, ash would do a lot of the offclassing, but he also ended up playing scout for froyo, so hes just a good player
this may be the cringiest thing I've read on tftv lmao, you aren't a fucking cyberninja just cause you grind dm.
tbh i see more soldiers playing dm/mge than scouts

i see more european playerd play soldier in MGE

[quote=dod3f][quote=Finnigan][quote=cozen]because the people who play roamer are not as skilled as people who play scout. rockets are easy to aim because of splash, so it is easier to maintain a higher level of play. people who play scout well are more mechanically talented, so that is why i think you see more scouts switching to other classes. for 20b, ash would do a lot of the offclassing, but he also ended up playing scout for froyo, so hes just a good player[/quote]

this may be the cringiest thing I've read on tftv lmao, you aren't a fucking cyberninja just cause you grind dm.[/quote]
tbh i see more soldiers playing dm/mge than scouts[/quote] i see more european playerd play soldier in MGE
27
#27
1 Frags +
dod3fFinnigancozenbecause the people who play roamer are not as skilled as people who play scout. rockets are easy to aim because of splash, so it is easier to maintain a higher level of play. people who play scout well are more mechanically talented, so that is why i think you see more scouts switching to other classes. for 20b, ash would do a lot of the offclassing, but he also ended up playing scout for froyo, so hes just a good player
this may be the cringiest thing I've read on tftv lmao, you aren't a fucking cyberninja just cause you grind dm.
tbh i see more soldiers playing dm/mge than scouts

Because soldier is at least as mechanically intensive if not more than scout at most levels. Scout is stereotyped as "the aim class" but in reality scout is pretty easy to pick up and be insane at (which is why you get so many dm scouts in mid/high who have 0 gamesense, I mean for fuck sake I played high scout for a season) whereas soldier can take a long time to develop decent prediction, jumps, directs etc. Soldier mechanics are underlooked because in open they're gonna shoot the ground and in prem the scouts are mostly genuinely talented.

[quote=dod3f][quote=Finnigan][quote=cozen]because the people who play roamer are not as skilled as people who play scout. rockets are easy to aim because of splash, so it is easier to maintain a higher level of play. people who play scout well are more mechanically talented, so that is why i think you see more scouts switching to other classes. for 20b, ash would do a lot of the offclassing, but he also ended up playing scout for froyo, so hes just a good player[/quote]

this may be the cringiest thing I've read on tftv lmao, you aren't a fucking cyberninja just cause you grind dm.[/quote]
tbh i see more soldiers playing dm/mge than scouts[/quote]

Because soldier is at least as mechanically intensive if not more than scout at most levels. Scout is stereotyped as "the aim class" but in reality scout is pretty easy to pick up and be insane at (which is why you get so many dm scouts in mid/high who have 0 gamesense, I mean for fuck sake I played high scout for a season) whereas soldier can take a long time to develop decent prediction, jumps, directs etc. Soldier mechanics are underlooked because in open they're gonna shoot the ground and in prem the scouts are mostly genuinely talented.
28
#28
0 Frags +

I feel like 50% of the time I see someone go spy in a stalemate it's a roamer

roamers just tend to not be sniper mains, and offclassing on last with disadvantage like corsa said is usually better for scouts because you want the soldier spam to deny doorways whenever possible

it's really not more complicated than that

I feel like 50% of the time I see someone go spy in a stalemate it's a roamer

roamers just tend to not be sniper mains, and offclassing on last with disadvantage like corsa said is usually better for scouts because you want the soldier spam to deny doorways whenever possible

it's really not more complicated than that
29
#29
27 Frags +

good luck offclassing with corsa on your team

good luck offclassing with corsa on your team
30
#30
1 Frags +

jukebox, muuki, dmoule are roamers who offclass (even though muuki says it's still technically offclassing on roamer), i think roamer should offclass on maps that are usually good for having both scouts like viaduct

jukebox, muuki, dmoule are roamers who offclass (even though muuki says it's still technically offclassing on roamer), i think roamer should offclass on maps that are usually good for having both scouts like viaduct
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