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can we ban most unlocks yet?
posted in Q/A Help
91
#91
38 Frags +

If your think that med turns into only hold M1 if you get rid of arrows I don't know what to say other then your blatant inexperience is showing. The xbow does add some mechanical skill to the class yes, but it also removes a huge amount of brain power that you used to have to use on med. Before the xbow you had to actually choose heal targets, who deserves the heals and what class is best in what situation, not only that but if you were decent at aiming needles you actually added a lot of DPS to a fight that could win the game for you. Now you just sit back, bait your team and hope the +130 arrows hit during big fights. Along with that the #1 issue new medics have is the fact that they use arrows way, way too much because they think they are good with them, when in reality they are not. So not only will the removal of arrows bring back some of the mind games to medic but it will also help the lower level players because it forces them to actually heal and to actually think about what the fuck they are doing.

If your think that med turns into only hold M1 if you get rid of arrows I don't know what to say other then your blatant inexperience is showing. The xbow does add some mechanical skill to the class yes, but it also removes a huge amount of brain power that you used to have to use on med. Before the xbow you had to actually choose heal targets, who deserves the heals and what class is best in what situation, not only that but if you were decent at aiming needles you actually added a lot of DPS to a fight that could win the game for you. Now you just sit back, bait your team and hope the +130 arrows hit during big fights. Along with that the #1 issue new medics have is the fact that they use arrows way, way too much because they think they are good with them, when in reality they are not. So not only will the removal of arrows bring back some of the mind games to medic but it will also help the lower level players because it forces them to actually heal and to actually think about what the fuck they are doing.
92
#92
-3 Frags +
thesqrtminus1Koncept
the problem with removing the crossbow is that, at least to me, it would make medic just so not fun to play. As someone who currently plays engie in hl (lolhl) and is looking to play medic in actual competitive, i just would not find medic fun if the xbow was removed because it would make medic just a "hold down m1 forever" class. i don't know if anyone shares this feeling, but I certainly don't think playing with needles as a low open medic would be in anyway fun. feel free to downfrag me for this, i don't care. I just feel like i should clarify. Yes, i see the problem that the xbow has, but taking it away would just be unfun.

I actually didn't suggest removing the crossbow at all. I'm more of a candidate to rebalancing it so that the other medic primaries aren't just straight downgrades to it. What I was suggesting was something along the lines of

  • Make 75 health the max health that a teammate can be healed with a crossbow bolt
  • Remove the ubercharge gain on teammate heal and put it on the overdose or some other primary
  • Remove the passive reload so that firing an arrow becomes more of something that should be used as a weapon and healing tool and rather just a spam weapon that you can fire into a hoard of enemies and not have to think twice about whether or not it was a good thing to do

Arrows provide an interesting depth to medic, but where things have gotten these days, there are so many benefits that if you're not running it, your team may think that you're throwing.

Edit: Also what tino said is entirely correct. Is it nice to have games where you have a low death count as medic? Of course. But there's a fine line between baiting your team and bailing on them at the right time when things are going south.

[quote=thesqrtminus1][quote=Koncept][/quote]

the problem with removing the crossbow is that, at least to me, it would make medic just so not fun to play. As someone who currently plays engie in hl (lolhl) and is looking to play medic in actual competitive, i just would not find medic fun if the xbow was removed because it would make medic just a "hold down m1 forever" class. i don't know if anyone shares this feeling, but I certainly don't think playing with needles as a low open medic would be in anyway fun. feel free to downfrag me for this, i don't care. I just feel like i should clarify. Yes, i see the problem that the xbow has, but taking it away would just be unfun.[/quote]

I actually didn't suggest removing the crossbow at all. I'm more of a candidate to rebalancing it so that the other medic primaries aren't just straight downgrades to it. What I was suggesting was something along the lines of
[list]
[*] Make 75 health the max health that a teammate can be healed with a crossbow bolt
[*] Remove the ubercharge gain on teammate heal and put it on the overdose or some other primary
[*] Remove the passive reload so that firing an arrow becomes more of something that should be used as a weapon and healing tool and rather just a spam weapon that you can fire into a hoard of enemies and not have to think twice about whether or not it was a good thing to do
[/list]

Arrows provide an interesting depth to medic, but where things have gotten these days, there are so many benefits that if you're not running it, your team may think that you're throwing.

Edit: Also what tino said is entirely correct. Is it nice to have games where you have a low death count as medic? Of course. But there's a fine line between baiting your team and bailing on them at the right time when things are going south.
93
#93
24 Frags +

if you're asking valve to make any change to a weapon, the crossbow will not be on their list, so you're preaching to the choir if you want stat changes

if there is this much debate then just ban it

if you're asking valve to make any change to a weapon, the crossbow will not be on their list, so you're preaching to the choir if you want stat changes

if there is this much debate then just ban it
94
#94
2 Frags +
viperif you're asking valve to make any change to a weapon, the crossbow will not be on their list, so you're preaching to the choir if you want stat changes

if there is this much debate then just ban it

theoretically in a world where all is good and we got sufficient dev support, we could experiment with these changes. But that's not the world we live in so I'm not going to expand on it any further

while it's an unpopular opinion, I don't think the crossbow should be outright banned, but I think the waters should be tested through a new whitelist in competitive environments. Give the people a taste of what would be to come and then vote on it.

[quote=viper]if you're asking valve to make any change to a weapon, the crossbow will not be on their list, so you're preaching to the choir if you want stat changes

if there is this much debate then just ban it[/quote]

theoretically in a world where all is good and we got sufficient dev support, we could experiment with these changes. But that's not the world we live in so I'm not going to expand on it any further

while it's an unpopular opinion, I don't think the crossbow should be outright banned, but I think the waters should be tested through a new whitelist in competitive environments. Give the people a taste of what would be to come and then vote on it.
95
#95
22 Frags +

promod when

promod when
96
#96
2 Frags +
viperif you're asking valve to make any change to a weapon, the crossbow will not be on their list, so you're preaching to the choir if you want stat changes

if there is this much debate then just ban it

b4nny mentioned that its getting a rework in the pyro update on stream but dont quote me on that

[quote=viper]if you're asking valve to make any change to a weapon, the crossbow will not be on their list, so you're preaching to the choir if you want stat changes

if there is this much debate then just ban it[/quote]

b4nny mentioned that its getting a rework in the pyro update on stream but dont quote me on that
97
#97
28 Frags +
Decapotatoviperif you're asking valve to make any change to a weapon, the crossbow will not be on their list, so you're preaching to the choir if you want stat changes

if there is this much debate then just ban it

b4nny mentioned that its getting a rework in the pyro update on stream but dont quote me on that

judging by their latest medic changes, it would probably be a buff

[quote=Decapotato][quote=viper]if you're asking valve to make any change to a weapon, the crossbow will not be on their list, so you're preaching to the choir if you want stat changes

if there is this much debate then just ban it[/quote]

b4nny mentioned that its getting a rework in the pyro update on stream but dont quote me on that[/quote]
judging by their latest medic changes, it would probably be a buff
98
#98
8 Frags +
aierawhat map are you having ammo troubles on roamer? every map on rotation has flank ammo packs ever since pro granary, and you don't have to share them with a demoman unlike the pocket.

Has roamer you have to time rotations between healthpacks and ammopacks to maximize efficiency.
With the cow mangler you can just sit there and spam without having to even move while also having the ability to charge a shot and deal massive damage.
The only downsides is not getting kritz which will most likely not happen anyway if you're playing flanks, and the reduced damage to buildings. So the downside of the weapon only matter when you are pushing last, and even then you can have your pocket and demo spam the sentry instead of two sollies.
The cow mangler is a straight upgrade in most senarios, I'm not saying it's gamebreaking but it is unbalanced and overpowered. Add the ridiculous design of the weapon and the fact that projectiles are harder to see.
The weapon doesn't add any skill based mechanic to the game while taking away ammo management.

GentlymanJon's survey had the question "does this unlock improve 6v6" and the answer is clearly no. It doesn't affect the game as much as a weapon like the atomizer would but it participate as a whole has to why the game is so gimmicky/stale nowadays.

[quote=aiera]what map are you having ammo troubles on roamer? every map on rotation has flank ammo packs ever since pro granary, and you don't have to share them with a demoman unlike the pocket.[/quote]
Has roamer you have to time rotations between healthpacks and ammopacks to maximize efficiency.
With the cow mangler you can just sit there and spam without having to even move while also having the ability to charge a shot and deal massive damage.
The only downsides is not getting kritz which will most likely not happen anyway if you're playing flanks, and the reduced damage to buildings. So the downside of the weapon only matter when you are pushing last, and even then you can have your pocket and demo spam the sentry instead of two sollies.
The cow mangler is a straight upgrade in most senarios, I'm not saying it's gamebreaking but it is unbalanced and overpowered. Add the ridiculous design of the weapon and the fact that projectiles are harder to see.
The weapon doesn't add any skill based mechanic to the game while taking away ammo management.

GentlymanJon's survey had the question "does this unlock improve 6v6" and the answer is clearly no. It doesn't affect the game as much as a weapon like the atomizer would but it participate as a whole has to why the game is so gimmicky/stale nowadays.
99
#99
16 Frags +

I've never felt more at peace with the community. So glad so many people are seeing the light on why a more restrictive whitelist would be more fun. ESPECIALLY the xbow ban, this would make playing the game so much more enjoyable as a non medic class as well.

I've never felt more at peace with the community. So glad so many people are seeing the light on why a more restrictive whitelist would be more fun. ESPECIALLY the xbow ban, this would make playing the game so much more enjoyable as a non medic class as well.
100
#100
11 Frags +
thesqrtminus1the problem with removing the crossbow is that, at least to me, it would make medic just so not fun to play. As someone who currently plays engie in hl (lolhl) and is looking to play medic in actual competitive, i just would not find medic fun if the xbow was removed because it would make medic just a "hold down m1 forever" class. i don't know if anyone shares this feeling, but I certainly don't think playing with needles as a low open medic would be in anyway fun. feel free to downfrag me for this, i don't care. I just feel like i should clarify. Yes, i see the problem that the xbow has, but taking it away would just be unfun.

If you play med for the arrows or the mechanics you'll be better off playing solly or any other class. And no playing med in lower divs isn't really fun, that's why you don't see many of them. Med is only really rewarding at high levels when you can focus on teamplay and advanced stuff, and even then it isn't the most popular class.

[quote=thesqrtminus1]the problem with removing the crossbow is that, at least to me, it would make medic just so not fun to play. As someone who currently plays engie in hl (lolhl) and is looking to play medic in actual competitive, i just would not find medic fun if the xbow was removed because it would make medic just a "hold down m1 forever" class. i don't know if anyone shares this feeling, but I certainly don't think playing with needles as a low open medic would be in anyway fun. feel free to downfrag me for this, i don't care. I just feel like i should clarify. Yes, i see the problem that the xbow has, but taking it away would just be unfun.[/quote]
If you play med for the arrows or the mechanics you'll be better off playing solly or any other class. And no playing med in lower divs isn't really fun, that's why you don't see many of them. Med is only really rewarding at high levels when you can focus on teamplay and advanced stuff, and even then it isn't the most popular class.
101
#101
36 Frags +

its just funny how people still want to cater to valve in hopes the game will somehow grow competitively and its doing the complete opposite

like seriously so many people have quit/refuse to play because of all the stupid weapons that are unbanned now for literally no good reason other than to cater to epic valve

w/e congrats on slowly killing the game u love so much

ps fuck you if you think the cow mangler should stay
FUG IM RUNNING OUT OF ROCKET WHT DO I DO :DDD

its just funny how people still want to cater to valve in hopes the game will somehow grow competitively and its doing the complete opposite

like seriously so many people have quit/refuse to play because of all the stupid weapons that are unbanned now for literally no good reason other than to cater to epic valve

w/e congrats on slowly killing the game u love so much

ps fuck you if you think the cow mangler should stay
FUG IM RUNNING OUT OF ROCKET WHT DO I DO :DDD
102
#102
32 Frags +

http://i.imgur.com/txnBQ0o.png

[img]http://i.imgur.com/txnBQ0o.png[/img]
103
#103
-1 Frags +
Tino_If your think that med turns into only hold M1 if you get rid of arrows I don't know what to say other then your blatant inexperience is showing. The xbow does add some mechanical skill to the class yes, but it also removes a huge amount of brain power that you used to have to use on med. Before the xbow you had to actually choose heal targets, who deserves the heals and what class is best in what situation, not only that but if you were decent at aiming needles you actually added a lot of DPS to a fight that could win the game for you. Now you just sit back, bait your team and hope the +130 arrows hit during big fights. Along with that the #1 issue new medics have is the fact that they use arrows way, way too much because they think they are good with them, when in reality they are not. So not only will the removal of arrows bring back some of the mind games to medic but it will also help the lower level players because it forces them to actually heal and to actually think about what the fuck they are doing.

I would argue that there is more potential for using brain power with crossbows.. not only do you have to worry about which heal target is the best within team fights, you need to know when it is best to use the burst heal and when to use medigun - people act like arrows are always better but that isn't the case, the most optimal way of healing is to use both of them together to maximise your heal output, and if you can manage the HP of multiple players at once you will have significantly more impact than other medics, and I feel this is something that ive only seen top prem/invite medics do on occasion.

Its also most efficient if people cycle their heals and have some form of rotation to use buffs most effectively, and this is something that teams need to get better at, not just medics, as this is an aspect of team play that happens to be directly influenced by one class. There is also the fact that if you miss an arrow you will be sacrificing medigun heals for that duration. Basically the optimal type of healing that you are outputting as a medic depends on multiple factors like which classes are fighting, which sources of damage different heal targets are taking, which players are in active fights and which aren't - and this stuff defines when to use crossbows and when to use medigun to play optimally.

People say it makes medic more fun and simplifies the class, but IMO it raises the skill ceiling significantly and adds more depth to not only the decision making of individual medic play, but also to the dynamics of team fights. There are a lot of cases in 90% of medics that this all gets ignored because at lower levels of play it seems like going for arrows is always better, but in high levels of play going for one risky long range arrow could lose you a team fight if you miss it.

All this being said, i do think that crossbow is OP in its current state, but I don't think any proposed changes I've seen would correctly balance it without simplifying these dynamics that it adds. I think perhaps having a fixed arrow base heal of 75 HP, and having that increase not with distance but with critical heals could work. This would also reduce the impact of arrow building as you would gain 5% from each arrow, and you would need to arrow build properly (not as a lot of current teams do it) to actually gain something from it, thus further rewarding coordination.

Edit: this would also mean you could still put out 150hp arrow heals after 5s of the heal target not taking damage, regardless of range, and I feel like that is a fair trade off with heal output - if you and your players can manage their heals and rotations together it would make sense to be rewarded with optimal healing.

[quote=Tino_]If your think that med turns into only hold M1 if you get rid of arrows I don't know what to say other then your blatant inexperience is showing. The xbow does add some mechanical skill to the class yes, but it also removes a huge amount of brain power that you used to have to use on med. Before the xbow you had to actually choose heal targets, who deserves the heals and what class is best in what situation, not only that but if you were decent at aiming needles you actually added a lot of DPS to a fight that could win the game for you. Now you just sit back, bait your team and hope the +130 arrows hit during big fights. Along with that the #1 issue new medics have is the fact that they use arrows way, way too much because they think they are good with them, when in reality they are not. So not only will the removal of arrows bring back some of the mind games to medic but it will also help the lower level players because it forces them to actually heal and to actually think about what the fuck they are doing.[/quote]

I would argue that there is more potential for using brain power with crossbows.. not only do you have to worry about which heal target is the best within team fights, you need to know when it is best to use the burst heal and when to use medigun - people act like arrows are always better but that isn't the case, the most optimal way of healing is to use both of them together to maximise your heal output, and if you can manage the HP of multiple players at once you will have significantly more impact than other medics, and I feel this is something that ive only seen top prem/invite medics do on occasion.

Its also most efficient if people cycle their heals and have some form of rotation to use buffs most effectively, and this is something that teams need to get better at, not just medics, as this is an aspect of team play that happens to be directly influenced by one class. There is also the fact that if you miss an arrow you will be sacrificing medigun heals for that duration. Basically the optimal type of healing that you are outputting as a medic depends on multiple factors like which classes are fighting, which sources of damage different heal targets are taking, which players are in active fights and which aren't - and this stuff defines when to use crossbows and when to use medigun to play optimally.

People say it makes medic more fun and simplifies the class, but IMO it raises the skill ceiling significantly and adds more depth to not only the decision making of individual medic play, but also to the dynamics of team fights. There are a lot of cases in 90% of medics that this all gets ignored because at lower levels of play it seems like going for arrows is always better, but in high levels of play going for one risky long range arrow could lose you a team fight if you miss it.

All this being said, i do think that crossbow is OP in its current state, but I don't think any proposed changes I've seen would correctly balance it without simplifying these dynamics that it adds. I think perhaps having a fixed arrow base heal of 75 HP, and having that increase not with distance but with critical heals could work. This would also reduce the impact of arrow building as you would gain 5% from each arrow, and you would need to arrow build properly (not as a lot of current teams do it) to actually gain something from it, thus further rewarding coordination.

Edit: this would also mean you could still put out 150hp arrow heals after 5s of the heal target not taking damage, regardless of range, and I feel like that is a fair trade off with heal output - if you and your players can manage their heals and rotations together it would make sense to be rewarded with optimal healing.
104
#104
35 Frags +

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/137820224828211200/306737658548322304/fuck.png

[img]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/137820224828211200/306737658548322304/fuck.png[/img]
105
#105
3 Frags +

Why is everyone in this thread who's saying that they / other people wouldn't want to play medic if crossbow were banned getting downvoted? Isn't that quite important? What's the point of a well balanced game that nobody actually plays?

Why is everyone in this thread who's saying that they / other people wouldn't want to play medic if crossbow were banned getting downvoted? Isn't that quite important? What's the point of a well balanced game that nobody actually plays?
106
#106
25 Frags +

They're overreacting, the game is far better without them. I could understand newer players being nervous about it since they've probably only played *with* healing arrows - but trust me it's just a better game without them. You can still get flashy frags, you can still heal people, uber timings are a lot more predictable (thus you look like an idiot less often), and you don't have to deal with teammates you can barely see hollering for arrows all the time.

They're overreacting, the game is far better without them. I could understand newer players being nervous about it since they've probably only played *with* healing arrows - but trust me it's just a better game without them. You can still get flashy frags, you can still heal people, uber timings are a lot more predictable (thus you look like an idiot less often), and you don't have to deal with teammates you can barely see hollering for arrows all the time.
107
#107
5 Frags +

I think we should still have a tiny bit of trust in valve until this year's major update, and then we should completely give up, unless the main reason of the unbanned weapons wasn't valve and it was new players that like unlocks which is just dumb. I don't think anyone who wants to play competitive tf2 will get discouraged because of the lack of some items.

Aelkyr
  • Winger : Already allowed, nothing wrong with it.
  • Black Box : Allows for a more sustainable roamer but with one less rocket. Quite a negative trade, especially with the crossbow in the game, but it can be used on big maps or by roamers who like to go really far behind.
  • Direct Hit : Kinda the same as the Black Box, trading splash for raw damage isn't great, but it can be quite efficient in the right hands.
  • Battalion's Backup and Concheror : Okay for pushing last when the ubers are equal, IMO the concheror is a bit better considering that a speed boost is more useful than a defensive buff in a uber fight and charges quicker, but the backup provides more survivability so you don't have to flash as much.
  • Market Gardener : Not too sure about this one, on one hand it's a nice alternative to the classic bombs and it's fun to watch, but on the other I don't want to see some players doing the smallest jump possible or bhopping to deliver 195 dmg, that would be dumb. Maybe a nice fix would be to have some air time requirement before you can crit.
  • Loose Cannon : Apparently a lot of players dislike this weapon ? I think it's fine as it is.
  • Quickiebomb Launcher : Pretty good for clearing stickies off last and long range kritz, worse than stock at everything else. So, situationally good.
  • Ambassador and L'Etranger : Ambassador is only good if you're good with it, but it can be a nice alternative to the pure damage of the stock. Same goes for L'Etranger, who trades more cloak for less damage.

I think one-shoting scouts with the dh is very wrong.
The market gardener takes skill to make it effective even with bhops and small jumps, i think its only downside is it encourages feeding.

I think we should still have a tiny bit of trust in valve until this year's major update, and then we should completely give up, unless the main reason of the unbanned weapons wasn't valve and it was new players that like unlocks which is just dumb. I don't think anyone who wants to play competitive tf2 will get discouraged because of the lack of some items.
[quote=Aelkyr] [list]
[*] Winger : Already allowed, nothing wrong with it.
[*] Black Box : Allows for a more sustainable roamer but with one less rocket. Quite a negative trade, especially with the crossbow in the game, but it can be used on big maps or by roamers who like to go really far behind.
[*] Direct Hit : Kinda the same as the Black Box, trading splash for raw damage isn't great, but it can be quite efficient in the right hands.
[*] Battalion's Backup and Concheror : Okay for pushing last when the ubers are equal, IMO the concheror is a bit better considering that a speed boost is more useful than a defensive buff in a uber fight and charges quicker, but the backup provides more survivability so you don't have to flash as much.
[*] Market Gardener : Not too sure about this one, on one hand it's a nice alternative to the classic bombs and it's fun to watch, but on the other I don't want to see some players doing the smallest jump possible or bhopping to deliver 195 dmg, that would be dumb. Maybe a nice fix would be to have some air time requirement before you can crit.
[*] Loose Cannon : Apparently a lot of players dislike this weapon ? I think it's fine as it is.
[*] Quickiebomb Launcher : Pretty good for clearing stickies off last and long range kritz, worse than stock at everything else. So, situationally good.
[*]Ambassador and L'Etranger : Ambassador is only good if you're good with it, but it can be a nice alternative to the pure damage of the stock. Same goes for L'Etranger, who trades more cloak for less damage.
[/list]
[/quote]
I think one-shoting scouts with the dh is very wrong.
The market gardener takes skill to make it effective even with bhops and small jumps, i think its only downside is it encourages feeding.
108
#108
26 Frags +

The idea of arrows is really nice but ya it's unbalanced and the balancing isnt going to happen. Banning or keeping them are both bad decisions.

I do miss the old days though when you could get a bunch of damage off a bomb or something and then push off that damage. Now it's just you hit a buttload of dmg but it's all healed up so quickly that pushing off pure damage is much more difficult.

The idea of arrows is really nice but ya it's unbalanced and the balancing isnt going to happen. Banning or keeping them are both bad decisions.

I do miss the old days though when you could get a bunch of damage off a bomb or something and then push off that damage. Now it's just you hit a buttload of dmg but it's all healed up so quickly that pushing off pure damage is much more difficult.
109
#109
1 Frags +
MarxistThey're overreacting, the game is far better without them. I could understand newer players being nervous about it since they've probably only played *with* healing arrows - but trust me it's just a better game without them. You can still get flashy frags, you can still heal people, uber timings are a lot more predictable (thus you look like an idiot less often), and you don't have to deal with teammates you can barely see hollering for arrows all the time.

Do you mean they'd be overreacting by quitting, because again how many medic mains can top level tf2 afford to lose? Or do you mean they're overreacting by saying they wouldn't play and they actually would? Because that seems a bit presumptuous. I appreciate nobody's going to be losing sleep over my opinion but I wouldn't be interested in playing in a season that didn't have crossbow. I'd love to hear what other prem and invite medics think, maybe I'm just a special needs corssbow enthusiast and can't speak for anyone else.

[quote=Marxist]They're overreacting, the game is far better without them. I could understand newer players being nervous about it since they've probably only played *with* healing arrows - but trust me it's just a better game without them. You can still get flashy frags, you can still heal people, uber timings are a lot more predictable (thus you look like an idiot less often), and you don't have to deal with teammates you can barely see hollering for arrows all the time.[/quote]
Do you mean they'd be overreacting by quitting, because again how many medic mains can top level tf2 afford to lose? Or do you mean they're overreacting by saying they wouldn't play and they actually would? Because that seems a bit presumptuous. I appreciate nobody's going to be losing sleep over my opinion but I wouldn't be interested in playing in a season that didn't have crossbow. I'd love to hear what other prem and invite medics think, maybe I'm just a special needs corssbow enthusiast and can't speak for anyone else.
110
#110
13 Frags +

I would really really love to see TF2 played with a highly restrictive whitelist as suggested multiple times in this thread. I wanna see just how big of a difference it'll make towards the flow of the game.

I would [i]really really[/i] love to see TF2 played with a highly restrictive whitelist as suggested multiple times in this thread. I wanna see just how big of a difference it'll make towards the flow of the game.
111
#111
0 Frags +
Mecha_Cophttp://whitelist.tf/7142

Please this

[quote=Mecha_Cop]http://whitelist.tf/7142[/quote]


Please this
112
#112
-6 Frags +

http://whitelist.tf/7161

http://whitelist.tf/7161
113
#113
16 Frags +
SerotoneI'd love to hear what other prem and invite medics think, maybe I'm just a special needs corssbow enthusiast and can't speak for anyone else.

See my opinion at the start of the thread and page 2
Arrows are a terrific and fun concept, however valve game balance is absolute trash and the current state of arrows do far more harm than good.
I do recognise that using arrows effectively is a skill you've practiced and developed, and outright removing that aspect of the class would make it very unappealing to you. But there is just so much more to medic than switching to arrows mid fight, which currently is far too powerful.

[quote=Serotone]I'd love to hear what other prem and invite medics think, maybe I'm just a special needs corssbow enthusiast and can't speak for anyone else.[/quote]
See my opinion at the start of the thread and page 2
Arrows are a terrific and fun concept, however valve game balance is absolute trash and the current state of arrows do far more harm than good.
I do recognise that using arrows effectively is a skill you've practiced and developed, and outright removing that aspect of the class would make it very unappealing to you. But there is just so much more to medic than switching to arrows mid fight, which currently is far too powerful.
114
#114
23 Frags +

Just throwing this out there, as a somewhat popular opinion being that scout is the strongest/easiest class, frustrating to play against because of his dominance w/e, it's strange to allow winger. It only adds quite a lot more ease to scout's movement, allowing him to access high grounds with no effort, when it's the weakness for a scout to be on the low ground.

Stock Pistol never makes more than 5% of any scout's total damage done, because the weapon is shit even if you can track very well, because of it's gay spread, also because of the fact it's only used to finish off targets. Sure using Winger means you can't switch to pistol to finish off targets as easy, but usually it's still more efficient to use scatter anyways because of the unpredictability of pistol's spread. Instead it gets just easier to get on high grounds when being on low ground is the downside for scout. Surely I may be totally wrong here but share your thoughts or something, I'm not saying Winger improves scout 100x, just that it still is pretty straight upgrade in a sense.

Just throwing this out there, as a somewhat popular opinion being that scout is the strongest/easiest class, frustrating to play against because of his dominance w/e, it's strange to allow winger. It only adds quite a lot more ease to scout's movement, allowing him to access high grounds with no effort, when it's the weakness for a scout to be on the low ground.

Stock Pistol never makes more than 5% of any scout's total damage done, because the weapon is shit even if you can track very well, because of it's gay spread, also because of the fact it's only used to finish off targets. Sure using Winger means you can't switch to pistol to finish off targets as easy, but usually it's still more efficient to use scatter anyways because of the unpredictability of pistol's spread. Instead it gets just easier to get on high grounds when being on low ground is the downside for scout. Surely I may be totally wrong here but share your thoughts or something, I'm not saying Winger improves scout 100x, just that it still is pretty straight upgrade in a sense.
115
#115
7 Frags +
PuoskariJust throwing this out there, as a somewhat popular opinion being that scout is the strongest/easiest class, frustrating to play against because of his dominance w/e, it's strange to allow winger. It only adds quite a lot more ease to scout's movement, allowing him to access high grounds with no effort, when it's the weakness for a scout to be on the low ground.

Stock Pistol never makes more than 5% of any scout's total damage done, because the weapon is shit even if you can track very well, because of it's gay spread, also because of the fact it's only used to finish off targets. Sure using Winger means you can't switch to pistol to finish off targets as easy, but usually it's still more efficient to use scatter anyways because of the unpredictability of pistol's spread. Instead it gets just easier to get on high grounds when being on low ground is the downside for scout. Surely I may be totally wrong here but share your thoughts or something, I'm not saying Winger improves scout 100x, just that it still is pretty straight upgrade in a sense.

idk about at higher levels of play, but at least in my experience using winger instead of stock I feel like I miss 1-2 frags per scrim just because I don't have the extra finishing damage of stock pistol. Probably mostly due to my own inconsistentcy with scattergun and just not properly exploiting the movement of winger but yeah doesn't feel like it's that much of an upgrade if at all, just a different style of scout play.

[quote=Puoskari]Just throwing this out there, as a somewhat popular opinion being that scout is the strongest/easiest class, frustrating to play against because of his dominance w/e, it's strange to allow winger. It only adds quite a lot more ease to scout's movement, allowing him to access high grounds with no effort, when it's the weakness for a scout to be on the low ground.

Stock Pistol never makes more than 5% of any scout's total damage done, because the weapon is shit even if you can track very well, because of it's gay spread, also because of the fact it's only used to finish off targets. Sure using Winger means you can't switch to pistol to finish off targets as easy, but usually it's still more efficient to use scatter anyways because of the unpredictability of pistol's spread. Instead it gets just easier to get on high grounds when being on low ground is the downside for scout. Surely I may be totally wrong here but share your thoughts or something, I'm not saying Winger improves scout 100x, just that it still is pretty straight upgrade in a sense.[/quote]

idk about at higher levels of play, but at least in my experience using winger instead of stock I feel like I miss 1-2 frags per scrim just because I don't have the extra finishing damage of stock pistol. Probably mostly due to my own inconsistentcy with scattergun and just not properly exploiting the movement of winger but yeah doesn't feel like it's that much of an upgrade if at all, just a different style of scout play.
116
#116
20 Frags +
SerotoneDo you mean they'd be overreacting by quitting, because again how many medic mains can top level tf2 afford to lose?

You might or might not regard me as top level medic main - I quit (mostly) because of arrows.

[quote=Serotone]Do you mean they'd be overreacting by quitting, because again how many medic mains can top level tf2 afford to lose?[/quote]

You might or might not regard me as top level medic main - I quit (mostly) because of arrows.
117
#117
-2 Frags +
SerotoneDo you mean they'd be overreacting by quitting, because again how many medic mains can top level tf2 afford to lose? Or do you mean they're overreacting by saying they wouldn't play and they actually would? Because that seems a bit presumptuous. I appreciate nobody's going to be losing sleep over my opinion but I wouldn't be interested in playing in a season that didn't have crossbow. I'd love to hear what other prem and invite medics think, maybe I'm just a special needs corssbow enthusiast and can't speak for anyone else.

I'm probably the worst example for this because I'm known for my arrows so I'm probably biased, but I for sure would enjoy Medic way less than I currently do without arrows

Arrows just give a class that doesn't have a lot of mechanical depth more skill to it and I appreciate that my aim is actually being rewarded with saving teammates lives in situations where they would have died.

[quote=Serotone]
Do you mean they'd be overreacting by quitting, because again how many medic mains can top level tf2 afford to lose? Or do you mean they're overreacting by saying they wouldn't play and they actually would? Because that seems a bit presumptuous. I appreciate nobody's going to be losing sleep over my opinion but I wouldn't be interested in playing in a season that didn't have crossbow. I'd love to hear what other prem and invite medics think, maybe I'm just a special needs corssbow enthusiast and can't speak for anyone else.[/quote]

I'm probably the worst example for this because I'm known for my arrows so I'm probably biased, but I for sure would enjoy Medic way less than I currently do without arrows

Arrows just give a class that doesn't have a lot of mechanical depth more skill to it and I appreciate that my aim is actually being rewarded with saving teammates lives in situations where they would have died.
118
#118
-12 Frags +

Just make 2 competitions next season. One with and one without unlocks

Run the one that gets the most signups.

Just make 2 competitions next season. One with and one without unlocks

Run the one that gets the most signups.
119
#119
24 Frags +
Raptor00X
I'm probably the worst example for this because I'm known for my arrows so I'm probably biased

:thinking:

[quote=Raptor00X]

I'm probably the worst example for this because I'm known for my arrows so I'm probably biased[/quote]

:thinking:
120
#120
-8 Frags +

Not that it matters too much but removing arrows would be a huge nerf to soldier more than anything

Not that it matters too much but removing arrows would be a huge nerf to soldier more than anything
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