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How true is this?
posted in Videos
1
#1
Stream Highlights
0 Frags +

https://youtu.be/Kz832XhEM9U

[youtube]https://youtu.be/Kz832XhEM9U[/youtube]
2
#2
16 Frags +

Which part are you talking about? The entire thing?

Vsync sucks, yes. Creates a delay. Screen tearing also sucks, but less than giving yourself lag

FPS makes a difference for aim in TF2. I can feel the difference between 50 and 60 fps (I play on a 5 year old laptop so I often go back and forth between those 2 numbers)

I've only used 144Hz once (about 6 months ago during SweLAN) but did not notice any difference in airstrafing. Aiming on scout never felt so easy though. It even felt so responsive I had a hard time adjusting to it

I've also never seen anyone in TF2 mention that higher FPS affects airstrafing. You can test this easily by going on a jump server where you get double the fps as you would in a pub

Which part are you talking about? The entire thing?

Vsync sucks, yes. Creates a delay. Screen tearing also sucks, but less than giving yourself lag

FPS makes a difference for aim in TF2. I can feel the difference between 50 and 60 fps (I play on a 5 year old laptop so I often go back and forth between those 2 numbers)

I've only used 144Hz once (about 6 months ago during SweLAN) but did not notice any difference in airstrafing. Aiming on scout never felt so easy though. It even felt so responsive I had a hard time adjusting to it

I've also never seen anyone in TF2 mention that higher FPS affects airstrafing. You can test this easily by going on a jump server where you get double the fps as you would in a pub
3
#3
-25 Frags +

depends on what you mean by 'true'

depends on what you mean by 'true'
4
#4
1 Frags +
funhaver1998depends on what you mean by 'true'

Non-alternative facts.

[quote=funhaver1998]depends on what you mean by 'true'[/quote]
Non-alternative facts.
5
#5
-4 Frags +
Setsulfunhaver1998depends on what you mean by 'true'Non-alternative facts.

Define "facts."

[quote=Setsul][quote=funhaver1998]depends on what you mean by 'true'[/quote]
Non-alternative facts.[/quote]

Define "facts."
6
#6
-19 Frags +
PinKushinSetsulfunhaver1998depends on what you mean by 'true'Non-alternative facts.
Define "facts."

despacito

[quote=PinKushin][quote=Setsul][quote=funhaver1998]depends on what you mean by 'true'[/quote]
Non-alternative facts.[/quote]

Define "facts."[/quote]
despacito
7
#7
-17 Frags +

daybreak we dont need your trolling here this is a genius only thread

anyways, YES this is true by setsul's definition if we are saying that it is in non-alternative fact, a youtube video, but MAYBE in terms of the content that the video provides

daybreak we dont need your trolling here this is a genius only thread


anyways, YES this is true by setsul's definition if we are saying that it is in non-alternative fact, a youtube video, but MAYBE in terms of the content that the video provides
8
#8
5 Frags +
PinKushinSetsulfunhaver1998depends on what you mean by 'true'Non-alternative facts.
Define "facts."

I think it's some kind of fruit.

[quote=PinKushin][quote=Setsul][quote=funhaver1998]depends on what you mean by 'true'[/quote]
Non-alternative facts.[/quote]

Define "facts."[/quote]
I think it's some kind of fruit.
9
#9
15 Frags +
TobI've also never seen anyone in TF2 mention that higher FPS affects airstrafing. You can test this easily by going on a jump server where you get double the fps as you would in a pub

Not quite, if you're somewhere around ~18fps and below it starts to negatively affect your movement speed among other things iirc. I can't seem to find the source on this I vaguely remember a video of someone comparing the movement speed of engineer at 1fps vs 10fps vs 15fps vs 30fps or something similar.

As to whether the video is true or not it depends on what part of the video. If you're asking about the title

"Do Vsync and FPS Matter in TF2?"

Short Answer is Yes.

Long Answer is still yes.

I'll start with VSync though. VSync will always add input lag usually equal to your refresh rate + a bit more if you don't bother limiting your framerate just below your refresh rate https://www.blurbusters.com/howto-low-lag-vsync-on/ . What this means though the deminishing returns of higher refreshrates on responsiveness also applies to input lag on VSync. More or less a 240.000Hz monitor with VSync on and a fps cap of 239.999 (for the euros out there 239,999fps) will have about the same kind of input lag as a VSync off 120Hz or about ~1.4ms more input lag than a 144Hz monitor vsync off, all while having 0 screen tearing and probably be the smoothest experience you've ever seen provided you can maintain a constant 239.999fps.

FPS higher = better basically all the time even if it's well above your refresh rate. How much depends alot on how the game is designed for instance having more than 1000fps actually significantly hurts your experience in source engine games. CSGO registers when you fire on a per frame basis so if you shoot someone just after a frame is sent you have to wait the full amount of time for the next frame to be rendered for your shot to be registered so even if you have a 60Hz monitor the difference between 80fps and 300fps is even more apparent as it'll make the difference of about 11.2ms of when your shot is fired (as well as where it's placed which matters on how fast you were moving your mouse how much that can be off) Here is a short clip of what I'm talking about with someone using scripts https://streamable.com/rlsul *this doesn't happen in TF2 or CSS or other source engine games. So I would say having a higher FPS is probably even more important in CSGO than it is in TF2. Higher FPS will always equal less average input lag assuming no bugs.

Usually when higher =/= better is usually due to dependencies expecting a specific or lower framerate (such as mastercoms points out that TF2 has some things that expect 300 or less FPS not sure what actually starts to get screwy over 300fps but I wouldn't be surprised lol) That or you particularly hate screen tearing so 120 fps on a 60Hz monitor probably wouldn't be as awful as say 133fps on a 60Hz monitor.

[quote=Tob]I've also never seen anyone in TF2 mention that higher FPS affects airstrafing. You can test this easily by going on a jump server where you get double the fps as you would in a pub[/quote]

Not quite, if you're somewhere around ~18fps and below it starts to negatively affect your movement speed among other things iirc. I can't seem to find the source on this I vaguely remember a video of someone comparing the movement speed of engineer at 1fps vs 10fps vs 15fps vs 30fps or something similar.

As to whether the video is true or not it depends on what part of the video. If you're asking about the title

"Do Vsync and FPS Matter in TF2?"

Short Answer is Yes.

Long Answer is still yes.

I'll start with VSync though. VSync will always add input lag usually equal to your refresh rate + a bit more if you don't bother limiting your framerate just below your refresh rate https://www.blurbusters.com/howto-low-lag-vsync-on/ . What this means though the deminishing returns of higher refreshrates on responsiveness also applies to input lag on VSync. More or less a 240.000Hz monitor with VSync on and a fps cap of 239.999 (for the euros out there 239,999fps) will have about the same kind of input lag as a VSync off 120Hz or about ~1.4ms more input lag than a 144Hz monitor vsync off, all while having 0 screen tearing and probably be the smoothest experience you've ever seen provided you can maintain a constant 239.999fps.

FPS higher = better basically all the time even if it's well above your refresh rate. How much depends alot on how the game is designed for instance having more than 1000fps actually significantly hurts your experience in source engine games. CSGO registers when you fire on a per frame basis so if you shoot someone just after a frame is sent you have to wait the full amount of time for the next frame to be rendered for your shot to be registered so even if you have a 60Hz monitor the difference between 80fps and 300fps is even more apparent as it'll make the difference of about 11.2ms of when your shot is fired (as well as where it's placed which matters on how fast you were moving your mouse how much that can be off) Here is a short clip of what I'm talking about with someone using scripts https://streamable.com/rlsul *this doesn't happen in TF2 or CSS or other source engine games. So I would say having a higher FPS is probably even more important in CSGO than it is in TF2. Higher FPS will always equal less average input lag assuming no bugs.

Usually when higher =/= better is usually due to dependencies expecting a specific or lower framerate (such as mastercoms points out that TF2 has some things that expect 300 or less FPS not sure what actually starts to get screwy over 300fps but I wouldn't be surprised lol) That or you particularly hate screen tearing so 120 fps on a 60Hz monitor probably wouldn't be as awful as say 133fps on a 60Hz monitor.
10
#10
4 Frags +

is triple buffer worse than normal vsync
i had that thing enabled as a kid bcuz i thought it soudned cool

is triple buffer worse than normal vsync
i had that thing enabled as a kid bcuz i thought it soudned cool
11
#11
4 Frags +

FPS does affect airstrafing in Half Life 1, which is why Half Life 1 speedruns are capped to 100FPS (higher framerates give you more speed for the same airstrafe). I've tested 100FPS and 500FPS airstrafing in HL and its extremely noticable. I've never noticed the same kind of difference in TF2 so I highly doubt local framerate affects your airstrafing (as said in the video, this SHOULD all be done server side).

FPS does affect airstrafing in Half Life 1, which is why Half Life 1 speedruns are capped to 100FPS (higher framerates give you more speed for the same airstrafe). I've tested 100FPS and 500FPS airstrafing in HL and its extremely noticable. I've never noticed the same kind of difference in TF2 so I highly doubt local framerate affects your airstrafing (as said in the video, this SHOULD all be done server side).
12
#12
0 Frags +
Comanglia just below your refresh rate https://www.blurbusters.com/howto-low-lag-vsync-on/ . What this means though the deminishing returns of higher refreshrates on responsiveness also applies to input lag on VSync. More or less a 240.000Hz monitor with VSync on and a fps cap of 239.999 (for the euros out there 239,999fps) will have about the same kind of input lag as a VSync off 120Hz or about ~1.4ms more input lag than a 144Hz monitor vsync off, all while having 0 screen tearing and probably be the smoothest experience you've ever seen provided you can maintain a constant 239.999fps.

holy shit, so you can play with 1ms lag and vsync on?
for example i have 60 hz monitor, and constant 120 fps, how much delay do i get?

[quote=Comanglia] just below your refresh rate https://www.blurbusters.com/howto-low-lag-vsync-on/ . What this means though the deminishing returns of higher refreshrates on responsiveness also applies to input lag on VSync. More or less a 240.000Hz monitor with VSync on and a fps cap of 239.999 (for the euros out there 239,999fps) will have about the same kind of input lag as a VSync off 120Hz or about ~1.4ms more input lag than a 144Hz monitor vsync off, all while having 0 screen tearing and probably be the smoothest experience you've ever seen provided you can maintain a constant 239.999fps. [/quote]
holy shit, so you can play with 1ms lag and vsync on?
for example i have 60 hz monitor, and constant 120 fps, how much delay do i get?
13
#13
1 Frags +

The unity example in the video is very misleading because most PC games factor in delta time when running updates or run at a fixed rate. The beneficial effects of it come from polling multiple times, leading to higher responsiveness, not faster movement.

sageis triple buffer worse than normal vsync
i had that thing enabled as a kid bcuz i thought it soudned cool

yes, it has 3 separate frames instead of 2 so theres more delay from what your gpu last rendered

also Dota 2 has a an experimental option to reorder logic to prevent latency from vsync: https://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=184108

The unity example in the video is very misleading because most PC games factor in delta time when running updates or run at a fixed rate. The beneficial effects of it come from polling multiple times, leading to higher responsiveness, not faster movement.

[quote=sage]is triple buffer worse than normal vsync
i had that thing enabled as a kid bcuz i thought it soudned cool[/quote]
yes, it has 3 separate frames instead of 2 so theres more delay from what your gpu last rendered

also Dota 2 has a an experimental option to reorder logic to prevent latency from vsync: https://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=184108
14
#14
-4 Frags +
SetsulPinKushinSetsulfunhaver1998depends on what you mean by 'true'Non-alternative facts.
Define "facts."
I think it's some kind of fruit.

So that's a "I don't know how to define truth or facts." Nothing really wrong with that. it is the great philosophical question and it's practically unanswerable in a general sense but that is why it's important to define words before discussing them. It's like how capitalism is defined as voluntary exchange in economics but ask a Marxist to define it and they will give a nebulous and random answer.

[quote=Setsul][quote=PinKushin][quote=Setsul][quote=funhaver1998]depends on what you mean by 'true'[/quote]
Non-alternative facts.[/quote]

Define "facts."[/quote]
I think it's some kind of fruit.[/quote]

So that's a "I don't know how to define truth or facts." Nothing really wrong with that. it is the great philosophical question and it's practically unanswerable in a general sense but that is why it's important to define words before discussing them. It's like how capitalism is defined as voluntary exchange in economics but ask a Marxist to define it and they will give a nebulous and random answer.
15
#15
Stream Highlights
-1 Frags +
PinKushinSo that's a "I don't know how to define truth or facts." Nothing really wrong with that. it is the great philosophical question and it's practically unanswerable in a general sense but that is why it's important to define words before discussing them. It's like how capitalism is defined as voluntary exchange in economics but ask a Marxist to define it and they will give a nebulous and random answer.

Stop

[quote=PinKushin]So that's a "I don't know how to define truth or facts." Nothing really wrong with that. it is the great philosophical question and it's practically unanswerable in a general sense but that is why it's important to define words before discussing them. It's like how capitalism is defined as voluntary exchange in economics but ask a Marxist to define it and they will give a nebulous and random answer.[/quote]
Stop
16
#16
0 Frags +
rmComanglia just below your refresh rate https://www.blurbusters.com/howto-low-lag-vsync-on/ . What this means though the deminishing returns of higher refreshrates on responsiveness also applies to input lag on VSync. More or less a 240.000Hz monitor with VSync on and a fps cap of 239.999 (for the euros out there 239,999fps) will have about the same kind of input lag as a VSync off 120Hz or about ~1.4ms more input lag than a 144Hz monitor vsync off, all while having 0 screen tearing and probably be the smoothest experience you've ever seen provided you can maintain a constant 239.999fps. holy shit, so you can play with 1ms lag and vsync on?
for example i have 60 hz monitor, and constant 120 fps, how much delay do i get?

holy shit, so you can play with 1ms lag and vsync on? Technically yes if you have a 2000Hz monitor (0.5ms from refresh rate + 0.5ms for max frame buffer)

60Hz + 120fps means you're not running vsync but the delay of
60Hz = 16.666ms between refreshes
120fps = 8.333ms between frames
in a perfect world your refresh would happen at the exact moment your monitor receives the 2nd frame thus making your input lag only 16.666ms (not counting signal input latency or pixel transition latency, or any of the other various sources of input lag such as USB poll rate, programmed delays within whatever application you're using, etc etc) but that just isn't going to happen except maybe a handful of times throughout a session. Your worst case would be a refresh that's just before a frame which would mean your monitor wouldn't actually update until about ~25ms later (again not counting other sources of input lag).

Minimum input lag = 16.666ms
Max = ~25ms

-me going on a tangent here-

Not counting other sources of input lag such as (this is brief list not all sources and or causes of input lag)
USB Pollrate of whatever input you're putting in (usually 1, 2, 4 or 8ms)
Signal Processing input lag - bit tricky here but this can be anywhere from microseconds to several dozen milliseconds
Signal travel input lag - probably a better word for this but it's basically how long the signal takes to get from the GPU to the Monitor over the cable typically measured in nanoseconds.
Pixel Transition - varies widely depending on how different or similar the transition is, what kind panel you use, and several other factors can be anywhere from microseconds(Really good CRTs) to several milliseconds (Really shitty LCDs)
Frame Buffer - varies quite a bit and largely tied to your framerate on how much input lag this can add.
Application Input lag - Also hard to give real numbers for but here is someone testing input lag within csgo and not counting display lag etc. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1s7s37McGr0RkeXQdM5Z7Gio2zkCQLTspBKADutT-sWM/edit#gid=0 basically CSGO delays input by about ~12.3ms at 144FPS on average.

Since I don't know all the equipment you use I'll give my setup as a very rough example.
BenQ XL2540 @240Hz with Instant Mode and Premium OD without any ULMB settings
1440x1080 stretched
for simplicity I'm just going to say I have a flat 240fps
wired Logitech G403 @ 1000Hz
VSync OFF
Pre-Rendered Frames = 1
Single GPU

In the scenario where I press mouse1 to see when +attack occurs in tf2.

240Hz = 4.166ms between refreshes
240FPS = 4.166ms between frames
Pixel transition = ~1.1ms to ~3.9ms
Signal Processing (for scaling 1440x1080 to 1920x1080) = 0.15ms - 0.3ms
USB Pollrate = 1ms
Click Latency = ~10ms (this is a rough guess the only numbers I can find are comparing mice to each other and the the G403 is 4ms slower than a G400 in terms of click latency)
Application latency = (using numbers for csgo as it's likely similar) 5ms to 21.66ms

Minimum input lag = ~20.42ms
Max input lag = ~45.18ms

even then I'm still missing several other points of input lag (most of which are negligible at being sub 1 microsecond)

[quote=rm][quote=Comanglia] just below your refresh rate https://www.blurbusters.com/howto-low-lag-vsync-on/ . What this means though the deminishing returns of higher refreshrates on responsiveness also applies to input lag on VSync. More or less a 240.000Hz monitor with VSync on and a fps cap of 239.999 (for the euros out there 239,999fps) will have about the same kind of input lag as a VSync off 120Hz or about ~1.4ms more input lag than a 144Hz monitor vsync off, all while having 0 screen tearing and probably be the smoothest experience you've ever seen provided you can maintain a constant 239.999fps. [/quote]
holy shit, so you can play with 1ms lag and vsync on?
for example i have 60 hz monitor, and constant 120 fps, how much delay do i get?[/quote]

holy shit, so you can play with 1ms lag and vsync on? Technically yes if you have a 2000Hz monitor (0.5ms from refresh rate + 0.5ms for max frame buffer)

60Hz + 120fps means you're not running vsync but the delay of
60Hz = 16.666ms between refreshes
120fps = 8.333ms between frames
in a perfect world your refresh would happen at the exact moment your monitor receives the 2nd frame thus making your input lag only 16.666ms (not counting signal input latency or pixel transition latency, or any of the other various sources of input lag such as USB poll rate, programmed delays within whatever application you're using, etc etc) but that just isn't going to happen except maybe a handful of times throughout a session. Your worst case would be a refresh that's just before a frame which would mean your monitor wouldn't actually update until about ~25ms later (again not counting other sources of input lag).

Minimum input lag = 16.666ms
Max = ~25ms

-me going on a tangent here-

Not counting other sources of input lag such as (this is brief list not all sources and or causes of input lag)
USB Pollrate of whatever input you're putting in (usually 1, 2, 4 or 8ms)
Signal Processing input lag - bit tricky here but this can be anywhere from microseconds to several dozen milliseconds
Signal travel input lag - probably a better word for this but it's basically how long the signal takes to get from the GPU to the Monitor over the cable typically measured in nanoseconds.
Pixel Transition - varies widely depending on how different or similar the transition is, what kind panel you use, and several other factors can be anywhere from microseconds(Really good CRTs) to several milliseconds (Really shitty LCDs)
Frame Buffer - varies quite a bit and largely tied to your framerate on how much input lag this can add.
Application Input lag - Also hard to give real numbers for but here is someone testing input lag within csgo and not counting display lag etc. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1s7s37McGr0RkeXQdM5Z7Gio2zkCQLTspBKADutT-sWM/edit#gid=0 basically CSGO delays input by about ~12.3ms at 144FPS on average.

Since I don't know all the equipment you use I'll give my setup as a very rough example.
BenQ XL2540 @240Hz with Instant Mode and Premium OD without any ULMB settings
1440x1080 stretched
for simplicity I'm just going to say I have a flat 240fps
wired Logitech G403 @ 1000Hz
VSync OFF
Pre-Rendered Frames = 1
Single GPU

In the scenario where I press mouse1 to see when +attack occurs in tf2.

240Hz = 4.166ms between refreshes
240FPS = 4.166ms between frames
Pixel transition = ~1.1ms to ~3.9ms
Signal Processing (for scaling 1440x1080 to 1920x1080) = 0.15ms - 0.3ms
USB Pollrate = 1ms
Click Latency = ~10ms (this is a rough guess the only numbers I can find are comparing mice to each other and the the G403 is 4ms slower than a G400 in terms of click latency)
Application latency = (using numbers for csgo as it's likely similar) 5ms to 21.66ms

Minimum input lag = ~20.42ms
Max input lag = ~45.18ms

even then I'm still missing several other points of input lag (most of which are negligible at being sub 1 microsecond)
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