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TF2 Blog: "Balance Changes"
151
#151
39 Frags +
barefoot_banditThis update will make or break comp 6s

That's what they said last update, which turned out to be garbage, and we're all still here.

[quote=barefoot_bandit]This update will make or break comp 6s[/quote]
That's what they said last update, which turned out to be garbage, and we're all still here.
152
#152
-3 Frags +
Comanglia4hpLstratosHFThe darwins danger shield still gives you 150 health and 225 with overheal. How is that not an insta pick in the sniper secondery slot?
I thought that "new design" implied everything else gets scrapped about the old one, including the +25 health.

oh boy if that's the case the Darwin Danger Shield is worthless without the bonus HP and only buffs against pyro.

isn't jarate banned in HL though? because if so the DDS could be the next best thing.

e: i was wrong

[quote=Comanglia][quote=4hp][quote=LstratosHF]The darwins danger shield still gives you 150 health and 225 with overheal. How is that not an insta pick in the sniper secondery slot?[/quote]

I thought that "new design" implied everything else gets scrapped about the old one, including the +25 health.[/quote]

oh boy if that's the case the Darwin Danger Shield is worthless without the bonus HP and only buffs against pyro.[/quote]

isn't jarate banned in HL though? because if so the DDS could be the next best thing.

e: i was wrong
153
#153
9 Frags +
Cyanicisn't jarate banned in HL though? because if so the DDS could be the next best thing.

No, jarate is allowed and heavily used

[quote=Cyanic]
isn't jarate banned in HL though? because if so the DDS could be the next best thing.[/quote]

No, jarate is allowed and heavily used
154
#154
refresh.tf
0 Frags +

Let's hope they nerf rescue ranger harder, and that they nerf vaccination, quick fix and add some minor downside to the solemn vow

Let's hope they nerf rescue ranger harder, and that they nerf vaccination, quick fix and add some minor downside to the solemn vow
155
#155
-8 Frags +
CollaideLet's hope they nerf rescue ranger harder, and that they nerf vaccination, quick fix and add some minor downside to the solemn vow

Why a vaccinator nerf?

[quote=Collaide]Let's hope they nerf rescue ranger harder, and that they nerf vaccination, quick fix and add some minor downside to the solemn vow[/quote]
Why a vaccinator nerf?
156
#156
11 Frags +
VulcanCollaideLet's hope they nerf rescue ranger harder, and that they nerf vaccination, quick fix and add some minor downside to the solemn vowWhy a vaccinator nerf?

Oh, I don't know, maybe because you can render attackers completely helpless in a fraction of the time it takes to build uber?

barefoot_banditThis update will make or break comp 6s, I hope things turn out for the better

eh, these changes don't seem to rock the meta all that much. i mean, they've introduced some new viable sidegrades but nothing too crazy imo

[quote=Vulcan][quote=Collaide]Let's hope they nerf rescue ranger harder, and that they nerf vaccination, quick fix and add some minor downside to the solemn vow[/quote]
Why a vaccinator nerf?[/quote]

Oh, I don't know, maybe because you can render attackers completely helpless in a fraction of the time it takes to build uber?

[quote=barefoot_bandit]This update will make or break comp 6s, I hope things turn out for the better[/quote]

eh, these changes don't seem to rock the meta all that much. i mean, they've introduced some new viable sidegrades but nothing too crazy imo
157
#157
18 Frags +

My body is ready.

https://puu.sh/wqBHU/5e6759c8c2.jpg

My body is ready.
[img]https://puu.sh/wqBHU/5e6759c8c2.jpg[/img]
158
#158
6 Frags +

Wow this is like really good. Blizzard-style in talking about the issue, goal for improvement, and changes.

Cornpop16barefoot_banditThis update will make or break comp 6sThat's what they said last update, which turned out to be garbage, and we're all still here.

to be fair now we have what's basically a changelist

except for pyro...

Wow this is like really good. Blizzard-style in talking about the issue, goal for improvement, and changes.

[quote=Cornpop16][quote=barefoot_bandit]This update will make or break comp 6s[/quote]
That's what they said last update, which turned out to be garbage, and we're all still here.[/quote]
to be fair now we have what's basically a changelist

except for pyro...
159
#159
1 Frags +

edit: doublepost

edit: doublepost
160
#160
-14 Frags +

DR and amby nerfs seem way too harsh, especially since spy is already considered one of the worst classes.

DR and amby nerfs seem way too harsh, especially since spy is already considered one of the worst classes.
161
#161
18 Frags +
Yosh7DR and amby nerfs seem way too harsh, especially since spy is already considered one of the worst classes.

Don't forget that these balances are catered towards pubs and casual. As mentioned by the dev team and others, spy is especially powerful in pubs where there is no communication.

[quote=Yosh7]DR and amby nerfs seem way too harsh, especially since spy is already considered one of the worst classes.[/quote]
Don't forget that these balances are catered towards pubs and casual. As mentioned by the dev team and others, spy is especially powerful in pubs where there is no communication.
162
#162
1 Frags +
KiNGYosh7DR and amby nerfs seem way too harsh, especially since spy is already considered one of the worst classes.Don't forget that these balances are catered towards pubs and casual. As mentioned by the dev team and others, spy is especially powerful in pubs where there is no communication.

Shouldn't we aspire to some sort of a middle ground where Spy is not too strong in pubs, but viable in comp still? (not full-time ofc)

[quote=KiNG][quote=Yosh7]DR and amby nerfs seem way too harsh, especially since spy is already considered one of the worst classes.[/quote]
Don't forget that these balances are catered towards pubs and casual. As mentioned by the dev team and others, spy is especially powerful in pubs where there is no communication.[/quote]
Shouldn't we aspire to some sort of a middle ground where Spy is not too strong in pubs, but viable in comp still? (not full-time ofc)
163
#163
4 Frags +
AlmieShouldn't we aspire to some sort of a middle ground where Spy is not too strong in pubs, but viable in comp still? (not full-time ofc)

Obviously we should aspire to get to that stage with every class/weapon/game mechanic. The problem is how do we get there without massively ticking off one side of the player base?

[quote=Almie]
Shouldn't we aspire to some sort of a middle ground where Spy is not too strong in pubs, but viable in comp still? (not full-time ofc)[/quote]
Obviously we should aspire to get to that stage with every class/weapon/game mechanic. The problem is how do we get there without massively ticking off one side of the player base?
164
#164
1 Frags +
oblarkyHow would one test these changes offline prepatch? or do you require a custom server
Sourcemod and TF2 Items would be one way of doing it.

Didn't TF2 Items get killed off by an update a while back?

[quote=obla][quote=rky]How would one test these changes offline prepatch? or do you require a custom server[/quote]

Sourcemod and [url=https://forums.alliedmods.net/showthread.php?p=1050170]TF2 Items[/url] would be one way of doing it.[/quote]
Didn't TF2 Items get killed off by an update a while back?
165
#165
-7 Frags +

The mantreads seem pretty dumb, from a roamers perspective. You could easily have two soldiers run it during stalemates and one of them jumps in to distract, and the other plays off the distraction. The first soldier could also go if he just sees a fatty opening. It'd be nice to have sacs be successful to break stalemates, but stalemates are still important for 6s. Double soldier bombs on mids will be dumb because they make scouts either irrelevant, or force them to aggress right after with their soldiers to get the enemy medic, which basically eliminates those fast rounds that are exciting to have and watch. Other than that mids will just be super passive to stop soldiers, which then it basically becomes a spam war.

The mantreads seem pretty dumb, from a roamers perspective. You could easily have two soldiers run it during stalemates and one of them jumps in to distract, and the other plays off the distraction. The first soldier could also go if he just sees a fatty opening. It'd be nice to have sacs be successful to break stalemates, but stalemates are still important for 6s. Double soldier bombs on mids will be dumb because they make scouts either irrelevant, or force them to aggress right after with their soldiers to get the enemy medic, which basically eliminates those fast rounds that are exciting to have and watch. Other than that mids will just be super passive to stop soldiers, which then it basically becomes a spam war.
166
#166
2 Frags +
5unnyThe mantreads seem pretty dumb, from a roamers perspective. You could easily have two soldiers run it during stalemates and one of them jumps in to distract, and the other plays off the distraction. The first soldier could also go if he just sees a fatty opening. It'd be nice to have sacs be successful to break stalemates, but stalemates are still important for 6s. Double soldier bombs on mids will be dumb because they make scouts either irrelevant, or force them to aggress right after with their soldiers to get the enemy medic, which basically eliminates those fast rounds that are exciting to have and watch. Other than that mids will just be super passive to stop soldiers, which then it basically becomes a spam war.

Is it really worth sacrificing both of your soldiers for a medic bomb? And would Mantreads be worth running full-time over Gunboats/Shotty? I see how it gives you an advantage when bombing because you can dodge better in the air, but otherwise I don't think the advantage is significant enough.

[quote=5unny]The mantreads seem pretty dumb, from a roamers perspective. You could easily have two soldiers run it during stalemates and one of them jumps in to distract, and the other plays off the distraction. The first soldier could also go if he just sees a fatty opening. It'd be nice to have sacs be successful to break stalemates, but stalemates are still important for 6s. Double soldier bombs on mids will be dumb because they make scouts either irrelevant, or force them to aggress right after with their soldiers to get the enemy medic, which basically eliminates those fast rounds that are exciting to have and watch. Other than that mids will just be super passive to stop soldiers, which then it basically becomes a spam war.[/quote]
Is it really worth sacrificing both of your soldiers for a medic bomb? And would Mantreads be worth running full-time over Gunboats/Shotty? I see how it gives you an advantage when bombing because you can dodge better in the air, but otherwise I don't think the advantage is significant enough.
167
#167
22 Frags +

Honestly, this blog post has been the first time I've been mad keen for the next update, in just about 2 years now.

Honestly, this blog post has been the first time I've been mad keen for the next update, in just about 2 years now.
168
#168
11 Frags +
5unnyThe mantreads seem pretty dumb, from a roamers perspective. You could easily have two soldiers run it during stalemates and one of them jumps in to distract, and the other plays off the distraction. The first soldier could also go if he just sees a fatty opening. It'd be nice to have sacs be successful to break stalemates, but stalemates are still important for 6s. Double soldier bombs on mids will be dumb because they make scouts either irrelevant, or force them to aggress right after with their soldiers to get the enemy medic, which basically eliminates those fast rounds that are exciting to have and watch. Other than that mids will just be super passive to stop soldiers, which then it basically becomes a spam war.

20hp rocketjumps>200% air control

[quote=5unny]The mantreads seem pretty dumb, from a roamers perspective. You could easily have two soldiers run it during stalemates and one of them jumps in to distract, and the other plays off the distraction. The first soldier could also go if he just sees a fatty opening. It'd be nice to have sacs be successful to break stalemates, but stalemates are still important for 6s. Double soldier bombs on mids will be dumb because they make scouts either irrelevant, or force them to aggress right after with their soldiers to get the enemy medic, which basically eliminates those fast rounds that are exciting to have and watch. Other than that mids will just be super passive to stop soldiers, which then it basically becomes a spam war.[/quote]
20hp rocketjumps>200% air control
169
#169
12 Frags +

Sorry for double post but some dude on r/tf2 actually tested what a 50% more accurate revolver would be like and it's actually really accurate all things considered
http://imgur.com/gallery/WqxKL
still dumb but at least somebody tested it

Sorry for double post but some dude on r/tf2 actually tested what a 50% more accurate revolver would be like and it's actually really accurate all things considered
http://imgur.com/gallery/WqxKL
still dumb but at least somebody tested it
170
#170
4 Frags +
vJillOn the Ambassador change - Keep in mind that revolvers in general already have a pretty tight cone. We found that having a 50% reduced spread on your first shot still results in nearly perfect accuracy at short-to-medium ranges (But, as mentioned, these changes are not set in stone)
[quote=vJill]On the Ambassador change - Keep in mind that revolvers in general already have a pretty tight cone. We found that having a 50% reduced spread on your first shot still results in nearly perfect accuracy at short-to-medium ranges (But, as mentioned, these changes are not set in stone)[/quote]
171
#171
-1 Frags +

I'm talking just as a way to break stalemates, not run fulltime. It'd be like a more effective two man

I'm talking just as a way to break stalemates, not run fulltime. It'd be like a more effective two man
172
#172
0 Frags +
5unnyI'm talking just as a way to break stalemates, not run fulltime. It'd be like a more effective two man

More effective sure, it probably would be, but losing both soldiers makes you lose so much spam power especially since Demo isn't as crazy at damaging as he used to be.

Pretty much if both of your soldiers fail the two man and their med doesn't pop, you can't get an easy force when they try to walk in with their uber.

Or even if they do pop, they don't have that much spam that can stop them from walking in and taking space before you can uber onto them (You can be forced possibly because scouts are squishy and cannot be dropped in this situation without forcing your team to give up the area for free/if your med and demo are somehow possibly alone that is the freest soldier bomb and force or drop in the game or possibly creating a butterfly situation with ubers).

I feel like two mans should only be soldier and scout.

Show Content
I definitely missed some shit and there are possible situations where the mantreads two man actually helps, but I feel like those could be luck based.
[quote=5unny]I'm talking just as a way to break stalemates, not run fulltime. It'd be like a more effective two man[/quote]
More effective sure, it probably would be, but losing both soldiers makes you lose so much spam power especially since Demo isn't as crazy at damaging as he used to be.

Pretty much if both of your soldiers fail the two man and their med doesn't pop, you can't get an easy force when they try to walk in with their uber.

Or even if they do pop, they don't have that much spam that can stop them from walking in and taking space before you can uber onto them (You can be forced possibly because scouts are squishy and cannot be dropped in this situation without forcing your team to give up the area for free/if your med and demo are somehow possibly alone that is the freest soldier bomb and force or drop in the game or possibly creating a butterfly situation with ubers).

I feel like two mans should only be soldier and scout.

[spoiler]I definitely missed some shit and there are possible situations where the mantreads two man actually helps, but I feel like those could be luck based.[/spoiler]
173
#173
4 Frags +
Re4lityPretty Boy’s Pocket Pistol

the passive bonus of no fall damage is really useful with very little downside.

for the one class with a double jump that cancels all fall damage?

also if they're nerfing spy i hope it's because pyros get worse at spychecking due to a reduced flamethrower cone size for increased range/damage

[quote=Re4lity]Pretty Boy’s Pocket Pistol

the passive bonus of no fall damage is really useful with very little downside.[/quote]
for the one class with a double jump that cancels all fall damage?

also if they're nerfing spy i hope it's because pyros get worse at spychecking due to a reduced flamethrower cone size for increased range/damage
174
#174
3 Frags +

BTW, I feel more confident in saying that (barring the air control working when not blast jumping), the Manntreads should actually look like very similar to those videos I made.

I tried the opposite, -200% air control, it looks like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlszvlCH4Bk&feature=youtu.be

You can't control your jump at all. Holding W doesn't make you descend, S doesn't make you lose speed/stop in midair, you can't turn, you can't strafe, nothing. You become solely at the whims of where the blast jump takes you.

BTW, I feel more confident in saying that (barring the air control working when not blast jumping), the Manntreads should actually look like very similar to those videos I made.

I tried the opposite, -200% air control, it looks like this:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlszvlCH4Bk&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]

You can't control your jump at all. Holding W doesn't make you descend, S doesn't make you lose speed/stop in midair, you can't turn, you can't strafe, nothing. You become solely at the whims of where the blast jump takes you.
175
#175
-11 Frags +

Pyro update blog released!!!

Show Content
Pyro
- Removed class from game.
Show Content
That'd be so sick if the "update" was just a troll. In all seriousness though, it'd be really awesome if they just released some "original" versions of the other rocket launchers, that shoot from the middle of the scree - even if it's just an option to make the same weapon do it. How have they not done that yet?
Pyro update blog released!!!

[spoiler][b][u]Pyro[/u][/b]
- Removed class from game.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]That'd be so sick if the "update" was just a troll. In all seriousness though, it'd be really awesome if they just released some "original" versions of the other rocket launchers, that shoot from the middle of the scree - even if it's just an option to make the same weapon do it. How have they not done that yet?[/spoiler]
176
#176
9 Frags +

found this going around on reddit seems like the majority of the people filling it out agree with the majority of the changes being necessary.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeu6hHjy4oYDuTB2qGDDO4_wnJ21e7rIyb5G9SSuFgd0mkJJQ/viewform

Only weapon that's close to be majority against the change atm is the B.A.S.E Jumper largely because most pub players assume people just slowly float to the ground and don't understand you can just spam the shit out of the deployment.

found this going around on reddit seems like the majority of the people filling it out agree with the majority of the changes being necessary.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeu6hHjy4oYDuTB2qGDDO4_wnJ21e7rIyb5G9SSuFgd0mkJJQ/viewform

Only weapon that's close to be majority against the change atm is the B.A.S.E Jumper largely because most pub players assume people just slowly float to the ground and don't understand you can just spam the shit out of the deployment.
177
#177
0 Frags +

seems like people think more of the weak weapons than the strong ones; Most people want the Bison buffed in the "other weapons" category !

Comangliamost pub players assume people just slowly float to the ground and don't understand you can just spam the shit out of the deployment.

the BASE Jumper results might be because few pubbers actually use soldier or demo. that would explain it

seems like people think more of the weak weapons than the strong ones; Most people want the Bison buffed in the "other weapons" category !
[quote=Comanglia]most pub players assume people just slowly float to the ground and don't understand you can just spam the shit out of the deployment.[/quote]
the BASE Jumper results might be because few pubbers actually use soldier or demo. that would explain it
178
#178
1 Frags +

.

.
179
#179
4 Frags +

I helped a friend of mine writing a feedback email to Valve but here's what I think should change from the blog post.

  • DR - not getting cloak from ammo boxes/dispensers is overkill and would make it the worst watch in the game. Increase the current -35% cloak penalty to something like 60% instead, this mostly prevents "double ringing" by decloaking on top of a big ammo box.
  • Amby - Increase base damage penalty to -20% / Make headshots obey damage rampup and falloff / Change rampup/falloff rates to 125%/75%. Keep the no spread on first shot. Basically the damage numbers at point blank/mid/max range would be 120/96/72 for headshots and 40/32/24 for bodyshots. At close range you can easily head+bodyshot a medic, but at long range you can't double headshot a medic and you can only double headshot a sniper or similar light class. This also makes the gun considerably less useful if you don't headshot.
  • Pocket Pistol - remove fire rate bonus. I think that's a little overkill in terms of short damage burst, since the pistol is mostly used on low health targets and the health on hit bonus on its own is already very good

Everything else is good.

I'm a bit worried with the amby suggestion that the 120 point blank value might be too good, but I guess realistically you won't be sitting on someone's face in games, so the "close range" headshots would be more like 110 or so which I think is decent. In general I think if you headshot someone in a close range fight you deserve it. I also wanted to propose some numbers that were more or less in line with the way Valve codes rampup and falloff in game.

Alternatively make headshots use falloff only instead of both, that's probably fine, but might be more confusing in terms of stats

P.S. I think Valve should really consider a diamondback nerf

P.P.S Ugh I totally forgot about the Mad Milk. It's a bit OP right now and I was thinking it should be a bit like the soldier banners and require you doing damage to build. So um... it's a non-milk substance, right? We all know what that means. The more damage a scout does, the more friggin erect he gets (much like scout mains in-game) and when you get to like 300 or so you well... fill the mad milk bottle. And then you can throw it for the same effect you have now.

I helped a friend of mine writing a feedback email to Valve but here's what I think should change from the blog post.

[list]
[*] [b]DR[/b] - not getting cloak from ammo boxes/dispensers is overkill and would make it the worst watch in the game. Increase the current -35% cloak penalty to something like 60% instead, this mostly prevents "double ringing" by decloaking on top of a big ammo box.
[*] [b]Amby[/b] - Increase base damage penalty to -20% / Make headshots obey damage rampup and falloff / Change rampup/falloff rates to 125%/75%. Keep the no spread on first shot. Basically the damage numbers at point blank/mid/max range would be 120/96/72 for headshots and 40/32/24 for bodyshots. At close range you can easily head+bodyshot a medic, but at long range you can't double headshot a medic and you can only double headshot a sniper or similar light class. This also makes the gun considerably less useful if you don't headshot.
[*] [b]Pocket Pistol[/b] - remove fire rate bonus. I think that's a little overkill in terms of short damage burst, since the pistol is mostly used on low health targets and the health on hit bonus on its own is already very good

[/list]

Everything else is good.

I'm a bit worried with the amby suggestion that the 120 point blank value might be too good, but I guess realistically you won't be sitting on someone's face in games, so the "close range" headshots would be more like 110 or so which I think is decent. In general I think if you headshot someone in a close range fight you deserve it. I also wanted to propose some numbers that were more or less in line with the way Valve codes rampup and falloff in game.

Alternatively make headshots use falloff only instead of both, that's probably fine, but might be more confusing in terms of stats

P.S. I think Valve should really consider a diamondback nerf

P.P.S Ugh I totally forgot about the Mad Milk. It's a bit OP right now and I was thinking it should be a bit like the soldier banners and require you doing damage to build. So um... it's a non-milk substance, right? We all know what that means. The more damage a scout does, the more friggin erect he gets (much like scout mains in-game) and when you get to like 300 or so you well... fill the mad milk bottle. And then you can throw it for the same effect you have now.
180
#180
-4 Frags +

Mentioning equip rates and introducing more rng to the game both trigger me but on the whole these changes have a bunch of potential. I like how valve are basically officially telling us that the eviction notice is the baby gru -- while it's a bit lame to have two unlocks that do basically the same thing just to a different extent, this game has so many weapons that it doesn't really matter at this point. Some of these new mechanics are really cool ideas as well.

That said, the gru changes as I understand them will do nothing for their main issue, which is running heavy to mid. As long as you're aware of how long it takes for your health to regenerate and ensure you don't die before that time you can still use them to bring cancer to otherwise arguably the most fun fight of every round. The crit-a-cola changes are also potentially not a harsh enough nerf but it's still better than any of the previous iterations I can recall.

If these balance changes get released with hopefully a few tweaks along with proper matchmaking fixes this game might actually not be dead quite yet.

Mentioning equip rates and introducing more rng to the game both trigger me but on the whole these changes have a bunch of potential. I like how valve are basically officially telling us that the eviction notice is the baby gru -- while it's a bit lame to have two unlocks that do basically the same thing just to a different extent, this game has so many weapons that it doesn't really matter at this point. Some of these new mechanics are really cool ideas as well.

That said, the gru changes as I understand them will do nothing for their main issue, which is running heavy to mid. As long as you're aware of how long it takes for your health to regenerate and ensure you don't die before that time you can still use them to bring cancer to otherwise arguably the most fun fight of every round. The crit-a-cola changes are also potentially not a harsh enough nerf but it's still better than any of the previous iterations I can recall.

If these balance changes get released with hopefully a few tweaks along with proper matchmaking fixes this game might actually not be dead quite yet.
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