When did it become taboo to dream?

To be honest, there are too many realists warning of the "death" of competitive Team Fortress 2 "if we don't have a LAN for one season." The desired systems we want if we go to ANY other league will take time to develop, and there are players acting like a young child wanting their Christmas to happen early in October. That shit ain't going to happen. I'll tell you that now. Shit takes time.

Now on the other hand, if we work with CEVO other than bickering with each other we MIGHT be able to get a LAN with season 4 of CEVO. But right now as a community we're not even parallel with each other.

I say we wait we and talk to the CEVO admins in Mumble before we continue calling bloody mary. All we can do right now is wait patiently and work with CEVO once the proper time comes.

if we move to a lanless setup ducky might play again
and potentially adam "reptile" dopko ever

WOuld also like to add that the portuguese community hosts 3 lans a year (march, summer, dezember). While the size is not near as comparable as a russian lan or NA lan it shows how community organized events can be created and successful.

We host it in a hotel lobby as well, with capacity capped at 50 people and every lan the spots are all taken within 1 week after its announced and there are usually well over 20 people in waiting list

The idea that the tf2 community is not capable of hosting or creating their own events is bullshit.

High level tf2 has been comprised of less than 20 people for a handful of seasons now. Saying LAN finals are NECESSARY for the game to stay alive is the biggest load of shit I've ever heard. Most of the action in the NA scene right now is everywhere but invite. Why should everyone else suffer for a couple of self-righteous pricks who think they're whats holding the game together. Go fuck yourself MR SLIN, invite's a joke now. If anything, I can see community driven LAN finals making the game improve in every aspect. Also considering that events run by the community gives access to literally anyone who wants to attend. Just picture LAN finals with maybe a hundred or so other community members, that would be sweet. I'm sure CEVO would back an event like that and give incentive to the douchebags who want prizes for their gaming expertise.

calm down man

i did not expect this and actually almost spit my drink out from laughing so hard! thank you, haha.

i'm not sure if you're getting it tbh

nobody cares about the prizes, nor has anyone said they care about the prizes

i can tell you that there are quite a few people who will play where the invite players play, because that's where the best competition is. Like it or not, they do hold a pretty sizable portion of the community in their hands, which is why such an effort has been made to convince them to make the switch to CEVO/another league.

You should quit with the vitriol. If you were in their position, with the ability to play against the best every season in a truly fair environment, you'd want to continue that as well.

As for a community LAN, I'm sure we can all agree that having one would be awesome. Now find me someone to organize and pay for it.

portugal is literally smaller than my state of virginia. the fact that everybody in the country is within driving distance of a lan helps quite a bit in terms of attendance. this is the big reason every lan besides esea lan is just comprised of pug teams. without a prize pot to help pay for flights it would be too expensive to fly out a whole team. i've driven 15 hours straight to attend ETS lan up in canada before, but this shouldn't be expected of everyone. the US is a big fucking country and it just isn't as easy to hold a lan everyone can attend here like it is in europe. anyway i've remained mostly silent as these threads have gone on but i just thought i'd point this out. the comparison between european lans and american ones is a pretty stupid one.

I don't doubt that they love playing in a fair LAN environment at the skill level they're used to, but you can't honestly lead me to believe that they dont care about the thousands of dollars in prize cash. Even if they're breaking even or losing a little bit, the reason they're going is for the cash (as well as every other aspect of LAN's, I'm sure it's a blast).

don't assume please. why would teams that know they're going to come in 3rd or 4th attend lan if they know they will lose money? almost nobody plays this game for the money. while it is a nice incentive, if esea stopped having a prizepot and just paid for everyone's flights instead i would still love to attend it.

Poor choice of words, what I meant is that there is the incentive there. I'm aware that most LAN attendees lose money and are going just because they want to. What I meant is that if the money wasnt there at all, I really doubt that anyone would attend every 4 or whatever months it is.

Of course they wouldn't. if there was no prize-pot to pay for flights then it would cost way too much money to attend every 4 months. like i said though, if esea stopped having a prize pot and just paid for everyone's flights im sure a lot of people would still love to attend. this isn't europe where everyone can drive 4-5 hours and make lan, or where flights only cost $150. I've bought my ticket early the last 4 lans and it still has cost me almost $400 each time for it.

And that doesn't cover the $500 hotel cost

National community LANs are only comparable in a way that say a North-Eastern US LAN, there are many of those.

But an event comparable to the Summer I-series? Where people come from all over Europe and for the last 2 years, all over the world to attend? A different prospect altogether, US is bigger than Europe and slightly more expensive, but for a country that prides itself for doing things bigger and better than any other nation on earth, it shouldn't be a problem right? Remember, I-series is to, a community LAN based in the UK in which during the summer, the European TF2 community has turned into the best TF2 event of the year.

The NA community wants this but just by saying "it can't be done" seems to me like a defence mechanism out of fear of losing the one prestigious event that the NA scene has. Don't get me wrong, here in the EU we'd love a LAN comparable to ESEA, rather than online playoffs for ETF2L due to happen over the next 3 weeks, we'd have a LAN finals to crown the champion? That'd be amazing for the players and even more appealing to the spectators. And to be honest, I'd hate to see ESEA LAN's die, they're great events and I always look forward to viewing them.

It can be done, don't delude yourselves that is can't. It just requires people to actually pull out the stops and sacrifice things, even if it is mostly focusing on one side of the country to begin with, the others will flock in. For i-series, majority of people in attendance are from Western Europe but we do have a lot of Eastern/Central/Scandinavians attend. Only the community can make it happen though...

I'd like to retort.

The ESEA LAN is a spectacle that transcends any individual player or team that ever takes part in the event. Tens of thousands of viewers get up at weird hours of the day to watch TF2 matches take place - and the league puts on a "show" to please the masses. Hundreds of new Open players over the course of the last few seasons have migrated to ESEA competition (which is the definitive competition in TF2) due to this event. This new blood then invests ($$) into the league, and the prize pot/divisions are expanded in order to meet the needs of the community. The ESEA LAN is like our Super Bowl in a way - and the exposure/marketing aspect of this event should not be overlooked. The removal of an invite-caliber LAN event would have an adverse effect on the entry rate of "new blood" into SERIOUS 6s competition.

If CEVO is to be taken seriously as a replacement for ESEA, then it must include a similar spectacle or we will be running the risk of losing out on potential "new blood".

In a perfect world, every team should be striving to reach this pinnacle one day. The ESEA LAN should be what is driving the competition at all levels of TF2.

There's so much micro-drama in this thread I'm coming down with cancer.

Everyone is talking, but no one is listening. There's a TON of unreserved judgements being made seeing as we haven't even gotten to TALK with CEVO yet. The meeting will be relatively short, sure, but at least some of your concerns might be lessened. Not only that, but you might see some nice things that CEVO can do for us that will make the switch more incentivized.

That being said, people have to realize: There are players who are never going to play in ESEA again. Many players actually, by the sounds of it, will leave ESEA even if the invite/LAN squad stays.

So what I want to ask is this: When the majority of the money pool from ESEA gets cut off as lower-tier teams leave the League and go somewhere else, and ESEA drops TF2 due to not being able to afford it, or cranks up fees even more, or any number of ridiculous things, WHAT WILL YOU DO? Like, at what point are you going to say "enough is enough"? This feels like such an extreme case of Stockholm Syndrome to me... people are afraid to rip the band aid off. YES it's a big risk. But so is staying with a business that readily puts it's customers (and this community) in it's backseat.

To the LAN-go'ers: From my understanding, most people who go to ESEA LAN have to fly in anyway. Even though Dallas is center of the country east/west, it's a LONNNG way south for some of us. Wouldn't hopping on a community LAN and turning an existing LAN in to OUR i-series (the same way ETF2L has) be so much better for EVERYONE? Wouldn't playing in front of an actual (small) crowd be much more hype than playing in a hotel room with a bunch of CS children and 9 other people watching you? I just don't understand this logic... if you want a LAN fine but how can you even qualify ESEA LAN as a LAN... it's more of a meetup where you end the season and play tf2 for a few days. It's not a festival, it doesn't really have community support (especially before eXtv and others started creating content at the LAN to try and stimulate some growth in the scene), and it's not beneficial to the community any more than piggybacking on a regional LAN would.

Hell, don't even call it a regional LAN. Get one of the LANs to support CEVO, and every season it'll be the CEVO LAN finals?

As Shakespeare said: "What's in a name?"

you do know that nobody besides rednecks and idiots actually believes that, right? also did you just try to imply that pride will help pay the extra amount it costs to attend lan here? i'll have to let them know that next time i book my flight.

a community lan with tons of sponsor support and piggybacking off an already huge lan event. there are only 3 lans i can think of that have that here, and only one that is central. quakecon would be the only possible option right now. ETS and PAX are both east coast and would make it too hard for anyone from cali to attend.

again please don't try to compare european lans to american ones. flights in europe cost maybe half of what they do here. if a flight to texas only cost me $150 i would be fine paying the whole trip myself every 4 months. i agree a community driven lan is possible and i would love to see it happen, but to try and argue that because the i-series lan works that one would work as simply here is completely ignoring all of the differences between our continents. if we wanted to only have 1 huge lan a year like europe does then that's fine with me, but it better be a damn good one and people better attend. i feel that if we switched over to this new system everyone wants most people wouldn't even attend a lan because they're either too young or they wouldn't have $500 to pay for flights and hotels to attend it.

There are also players who will not play in a free league that has no bigger game on the docket to keep tf2 afloat financially.

Y'all are crying that the game is gonna die but let it be known that when (if) it does, it's due to the stupidity of lpkane and the stubbornness of a dozen invite players who refuse to do anything to make something more beneficial happen

people make valid points and arguments, people say that they are mad and should calm down.
Invite matches are a pile of shit this season, Main has had far better and more interesting matches.
I think TF2 would be better off without invite.
Edit: BUT THOSE MAIN MATCHES COULDNT BE CASTED BECAUSE OF THE WORD "FUCK" OH WHAT A TERRIBLE MISTAKE

do u put on black eyeliner before you post jesus christ

http://i.imgur.com/kNAs6p7.png

(Coming from a LAN dodger)

I know that I never had the goal of a 'cash prize' that people seem to be claiming that players in Invite want.

I could care less about the money in this game; I've actually never even cashed any of the checks I've received over the seasons. LAN for me was important because I got to play with over 45 fps, got to experience a 120hz monitor and unlike the entire season where I pinged 100-120, I got to ping less than 5. It was the first time I felt like I played on an even playing field.

Now my team, which was notorious for never scrimming, did not put up much of a showing due to real life, but it was still by far the most enjoyable TF2 experience I've had and the only reason I'd ever play this game seriously again would be for another shot to make it there and to compete; money was not on my mind in the slightest.

I can't speak for all invite players especially since I'm out of the loop, but I know most are motivated by LAN for competition (not free money, vacation). I also don't have history in other games to know if LANs will/won't kill the game, I was just giving my 2 cents.

I fail to see the logic behind the argument "There is no central location in the US that is easy for everyone to travel to", especially because 3 times a year we have 4 teams flying to dallas from all over the US just for lan. I don't think anyone is arguing that a community based lan would attract the entire community and everyone would go. It's more realistic that (given the prize pot was big enough to give the top teams incentive) we would have the top 2-4 teams flying in for the finals, and on top of that, other players in the area could go. In addition to having the "CEVO Finals Tournament", there could be an open tournament going on for those players who would be attending because they are within close proximity of the lan. Just picture the GXL with an additional invite tournament going on. We would have the highest level of play on display right in front of the general public who attends the lan, as well as an avenue for them to start playing in an open tournament right then and there.

I also fail to see the logic behind the argument "we can't host our own lan because it is too expensive." Existing lans already have all of the servers and all of the necessary hardware to host a lan. They are already shelling out the money to host the event. The only real expense for everyone would be travel. We have a long standing member of the community in Nick "TheFragile" Leon who is in charge of the tournaments at the GXL and even said that he would help us out with hosting a lan there. I'm not suggesting that this be the location or the event that we decide on, I'm just pointing out that it is not a far fetched idea or anywhere near as impossible as some people are making it out to be.

When esea had it's first season, I believe they had around 20 teams participate in a 100% open league. Teams such as Pandemic and 20ID participated, as well as teams who were far below their skill level. My memory is kind of foggy, but i also believe that they only had 1 match per week in their first season and then once they gained our interest with all of their "fancy shiny things", they switched it to 2 matches a week, almost as if to prevent us from participating in any other leagues. They most certainly did not have a LAN for us.

All of that being said, ESEA is not what it once was. In the earlier seasons, Torbull himself would message team captains of cevo rosters trying to convince them to sign up for their tf2 league. They would constantly hand out free premium to players to try out their pug systems, and they would actually treat our community with respect because they actually needed us to make their league and pug systems work if they were going to be successful in TF2 (except for lpkane, who has always been a dick, and would hand out bans to people who complained about him playing pyro in 6v6 pugs).

ESEA will always revolve around counter strike. Honestly if i was new to competitive gaming and i went to ESEA's site to inquire about their tf2 league, I'd probably say to myself "why am i trying to play tf2 when CS is so much bigger and is where the real money is at". Their coverage of the TF2 portion of the lan is mediocre at best. I have to shovel through tons of CS photos just to find that the only pictures of TF2 players are captured in the background of CS photos (hyperbole). Last season i'm fairly sure that the winner of the TF2 lan wasn't even posted within a reasonable amount of time, because when i tried to go see a picture of the winning team it was nowhere to be found on their website and i had to ask people on steam who won.

Basically all i'm trying to say is, nothing is going to happen over night. I think we can easily trump the numbers of the first season of esea. I don't recall what the prize pots were in those first couple of seasons, but i'm pretty confident that we can trump those numbers as well. There won't be a lan right off the bat. Those things take lots of planning and time. We have a league willing to take the first step with us, and community figure heads who are willing to put in the time to jump start this new league option. The fact that people are already shunning it is ridiculous. When companies compete, the consumer always benefits. Risks have to be taken to make progress, stop being little girls about it.

Edit: In regards to them supplying computers and monitors to the players who fly out, this is not a rare thing or uncommon at lans. Even the small intel lan in Atlanta has a set up like this for players to play finals on.

layin down da meat

Please Enter Coupon:

Pride (50% discount).

Trying to have a civilized conversation about this topic that I care so much about and it just got very hostile. I'm sorry that it got this far but I hope you realize that this discussion is not personal. I really do feel like there is a lot at stake here and I am not just going to go along with everyone else when I think something is up.

***

So why ESEA, and why was I pushing for a LAN so hard?

A lot of you guys probably don't understand this, so maybe I'll put it in MMO terms -- if your entire TF2 experience is like leveling up and you reach max level, what is there left to do? Yeah it's nice to say you're Invite but who really cares at that point. Now you're Invite and there's nowhere left to go. No reason to put in the extra hours to grind through those losses against every other Invite team who is better than you simply because "it's fun". Trust me. You need this end game. You need this incentive for the Invite players. Every MMO that I have ever played that has no end game has died a painful death.

LAN isn't essential to playing the game but enough of us care about it to the point where I don't think we should take what ESEA is giving us for granted. They give us 3 LANs per year that our entire community can come around to watch and appreciate. If CEVO can put one on that is fine but I think it's a long ways down the road and we should be grateful for what we have now. It's not even like ESEA is some dead-end road for TF2. If we back it as a community and continue to see it grow we can expand the ESEA-Invite LAN like they do for the other games and eventually send even more players, and I think that that would be awesome. Don't you?

[edited for length]

I don't get how the euro scene even gets involved in a NA matter

The part about supplying tournament computers was the only possible issue. It's definitely doable, but I would need to look at the costs and see what can be done.

The only other possible idea is to try to do this at a LAN center. A bunch of good tournaments have happened this way in games such as Call of Duty, Counterstrike, and Day of Defeat.

I've been working weekends since forever. I have never seen a LAN stv or watch a LAN stream because of it. I've also played 4 (fail) seasons in invite. Would I have loved to make LAN? Ya!....but oh well it didn't happen so I'll continue to play this game with people I like and continue having competitive games in whatever division I play in. Right now in my TF2 career, I am trying damn hard to win even if it's Intermediate.

Point is, most of the player base has some goal in mind...whether it is winning open/IM/main or not having a negative record at the end of the season. Invite LAN isn't the "end-game" for all, and if it was, you wouldn't see so many invite capable players dodging it or not attempting to play in invite.

LAN is good for the top teams because they are the best and put on a good show, but at the end of the day, the game should be about YOU and your personal competitive experience.

I support ESEA and will support CEVO in hopes it creates some consumer competition for us.

edit: reformat