I thought about the defender respawns issue some more, and I think it's partly because the defenders can immediately shoot or bomb point when leaving spawn (compare to e.g. gully or snake) but the attackers can't shoot spawn doors while capping (like process) to balance this out
PigPigOpen to suggestions, what key areas do you find yourself needing ammo?
pushing 2nd from mid seems to be the worst for this, followed when you are stalemating/sacking from lobby into last. The 3 small ammo packs on 2nd are all really close to each other in an awkward way.
part of the ammo problem also comes from how the ramps on mid vacuum all the ammo drops under the point
I thought about the defender respawns issue some more, and I think it's partly because the defenders can immediately shoot or bomb point when leaving spawn (compare to e.g. gully or snake) but the attackers can't shoot spawn doors while capping (like process) to balance this out
[quote=PigPig]
Open to suggestions, what key areas do you find yourself needing ammo?
[/quote]
pushing 2nd from mid seems to be the worst for this, followed when you are stalemating/sacking from lobby into last. The 3 small ammo packs on 2nd are all really close to each other in an awkward way.
part of the ammo problem also comes from how the ramps on mid vacuum all the ammo drops under the point
FlipFTW
While I won't shut the door on adding another 2 seconds onto the defenders spawn times, I think this might be a "treating the symptom, not the underlying problem" kind of deal. WHY do players feel this extra defender respawn time is necessary?
I feel like another reason that you didn't mention was that this is (as far as I'm aware) the only map where defending soldiers can comfortably rotate through spawn without it taking forever or being especially detrimental. Most maps have a very low ceiling out of the spawn doors, I imagine in part to help this. For example process has the heaven balcony, or recent maps like villa have a very sunken in spawn walkout. I think soldiers getting to just rotate through spawns endlessly is what is really extending these last fights.
Being able to go spawn, get crit healed, and be back on point in like 1 second lets teams just have their soldiers cycle bombs onto point, and unless the attackers can instantly kill a 300 hp soldier, the last push becomes very dreadful.
[quote=FlipFTW]
While I won't shut the door on adding another 2 seconds onto the defenders spawn times, I think this might be a "treating the symptom, not the underlying problem" kind of deal. [u][b]WHY do players feel this extra defender respawn time is necessary?[/b][/u]
[/quote]
I feel like another reason that you didn't mention was that this is (as far as I'm aware) the only map where defending soldiers can comfortably rotate through spawn without it taking forever or being especially detrimental. Most maps have a very low ceiling out of the spawn doors, I imagine in part to help this. For example process has the heaven balcony, or recent maps like villa have a very sunken in spawn walkout. I think soldiers getting to just rotate through spawns endlessly is what is really extending these last fights.
Being able to go spawn, get crit healed, and be back on point in like 1 second lets teams just have their soldiers cycle bombs onto point, and unless the attackers can instantly kill a 300 hp soldier, the last push becomes very dreadful.
lootYou could be right that it's more due to walking distances or spawn doors or something, but "invite players can push it fine" is not a useful argument.
This is an interesting point, but I'm not sure where its coming from since I don't think I ever claimed the map is "fine because invite players can push it", but I can't deny that - especially with respect to early development of the map - the playtest group has been primary higher level players. This was more out of convenience than anything else, I happened to be friends with some advanced players at the time who were willing to help me run playtesting pugs and such.
Anyway, in short - I don't think the map was balanced around invite, nor do I think a map should adopt an approach of being balanced solely around the top level of play, BUT I do think that maps need to be balanced against abuse, and it happens that the players who most know how to abuse game mechanics and geometry are top level players.
In retrospect I think I understand where the confusion is coming from, when I say inexperience I'm not referring to the level of play, but rather inexperience with the map itself this is why I go on to describe my belief in a defensive edge toward players familiar with 6s, but not with the map. This point could have probably been made clearer.
lootOnly 1 match so far in my entire division has gone to 5 rounds, there's obviously a difference with the map compared to the rest of the pool.
Here's an interesting topic, lets investigate:
RGL S11, W6A/
---
*MAIN*
WANG gang v moments FM: (5-0)
CatNoisesBlack v Pancake4B: (5-0)
Worstcase Ontario v Ice Road: (5-2)
sexo v swiftyservers: (5-1)
GYROS Of MAIN vs gup: (0-2)
Ninjago: MOS v Rizzlam: (N/A)
Fat Peter v People of Edmont: (5-2)
ctap2luigi vs Disciples of Yaku: (5-2)
---
*INTERMEDIATE*
Konrad Gaming v 112: (4-0)
Sunken Pumpkin v heart for you: (0-3)
Poro v glass beach: (2-3)
red v bruh moment: (0-2)
lenords v Rhode Island Back Pain: (N/A)
0-16 Speedrun v FHC: (5-1)
freemium v Barcode: (N/A)
ag_21 v Shadow Wizard Money: (5-0)
Imposter Syndrome v The Mud: (2-0)
---
*AMATEUR*
Apple Zoo vs Bocchi la piedra: (3-2)
SnakewaterSalesmen vs MAS: (N/A)
E.V.I.L. vs Forced Windows Up: (5-2)
HOLD W!! vs 6 salas: (3-2)
Hannibal's Cannibals vs 4key ankle: (5-0)
Clown Town vs Shadow wizard mon: (3-3)
Dead Frozen Ice vs Farming ELO: (N/A)
Susan B Boys vs Team Fab 3: (5-1)
blahaj blast v Gentleman's Club: (3-2)
Highlander Gaming v Mondays NI: (N/A)
Sauce Delivery vs Atlantis 1: (5-2)
Mental Asylum vs Bad Touch: (0-5)
CreepyFamilyGuy v PenguinForce (N/A)
---
Hm. Yeah not sure what to read from this TBH, I did have a theory when I was teaching 6s that AM rarely stalemates because there are enough mistakes to cause near constant imbalance, Main has enough people with an experience of fighting against standard holds that there is some adaptation to dealing with them, and IM has the greatest number of players who are getting into the flow of utilizing the standard holds, but not necessarily knowing how to pressure/break them.
Anyway, even if that theory was true, I think that it would require more data than I'm willing to gather without RGL's API, and, as mentioned, what's more relevant to my point is the player's experience with the map. It's an interesting point I'd like to follow up on sometime.
[quote=loot]
You could be right that it's more due to walking distances or spawn doors or something, but "invite players can push it fine" is not a useful argument.
[/quote]
This is an interesting point, but I'm not sure where its coming from since I don't think I ever claimed the map is "fine because invite players can push it", but I can't deny that - especially with respect to early development of the map - the playtest group has been primary higher level players. This was more out of convenience than anything else, I happened to be friends with some advanced players at the time who were willing to help me run playtesting pugs and such.
Anyway, in short - I don't think the map was balanced around invite, nor do I think a map should adopt an approach of being balanced solely around the top level of play, BUT I do think that maps need to be balanced against abuse, and it happens that the players who most know how to abuse game mechanics and geometry are top level players.
In retrospect I think I understand where the confusion is coming from, [u][b]when I say inexperience I'm not referring to the level of play, but rather inexperience with the map itself[/b][/u] this is why I go on to describe my belief in a defensive edge toward players familiar with 6s, but not with the map. This point could have probably been made clearer.
[quote=loot]
Only 1 match so far in my entire division has gone to 5 rounds, there's obviously a difference with the map compared to the rest of the pool.
[/quote]
Here's an interesting topic, lets investigate:
RGL S11, W6A/
---
[b][u]*MAIN*[/u][/b]
WANG gang v moments FM: (5-0)
CatNoisesBlack v Pancake4B: (5-0)
Worstcase Ontario v Ice Road: (5-2)
sexo v swiftyservers: (5-1)
GYROS Of MAIN vs gup: (0-2)
Ninjago: MOS v Rizzlam: (N/A)
Fat Peter v People of Edmont: (5-2)
ctap2luigi vs Disciples of Yaku: (5-2)
---
[b][u]*INTERMEDIATE*[/u][/b]
Konrad Gaming v 112: (4-0)
Sunken Pumpkin v heart for you: (0-3)
Poro v glass beach: (2-3)
red v bruh moment: (0-2)
lenords v Rhode Island Back Pain: (N/A)
0-16 Speedrun v FHC: (5-1)
freemium v Barcode: (N/A)
ag_21 v Shadow Wizard Money: (5-0)
Imposter Syndrome v The Mud: (2-0)
---
[b][u]*AMATEUR*[/u][/b]
Apple Zoo vs Bocchi la piedra: (3-2)
SnakewaterSalesmen vs MAS: (N/A)
E.V.I.L. vs Forced Windows Up: (5-2)
HOLD W!! vs 6 salas: (3-2)
Hannibal's Cannibals vs 4key ankle: (5-0)
Clown Town vs Shadow wizard mon: (3-3)
Dead Frozen Ice vs Farming ELO: (N/A)
Susan B Boys vs Team Fab 3: (5-1)
blahaj blast v Gentleman's Club: (3-2)
Highlander Gaming v Mondays NI: (N/A)
Sauce Delivery vs Atlantis 1: (5-2)
Mental Asylum vs Bad Touch: (0-5)
CreepyFamilyGuy v PenguinForce (N/A)
---
Hm. Yeah not sure what to read from this TBH, I did have a theory when I was teaching 6s that AM rarely stalemates because there are enough mistakes to cause near constant imbalance, Main has enough people with an experience of fighting against standard holds that there is some adaptation to dealing with them, and IM has the greatest number of players who are getting into the flow of utilizing the standard holds, but not necessarily knowing how to pressure/break them.
Anyway, even if that theory was true, I think that it would require more data than I'm willing to gather without RGL's API, and, as mentioned, what's more relevant to my point is the player's experience [b]with the map[/b]. It's an interesting point I'd like to follow up on sometime.
lootpushing 2nd from mid seems to be the worst for this, followed when you are stalemating/sacking from lobby into last. The 3 small ammo packs on 2nd are all really close to each other in an awkward way.
part of the ammo problem also comes from how the ramps on mid vacuum all the ammo drops under the point
Here are the current ammo packs on b8: https://i.imgur.com/HqBivpb.png , Yellow = Medium, Green = Small
Feel free to make a suggestion on where you might move/reposition/add ammo packs.
Of note, you do have a medium ammo pack pushing every door, so it's an interesting opinion that you think that mid => 2nd is an issue, I'm more inclined to point out the opposite direction being potentially problematic.
[quote=loot]
pushing 2nd from mid seems to be the worst for this, followed when you are stalemating/sacking from lobby into last. The 3 small ammo packs on 2nd are all really close to each other in an awkward way.
part of the ammo problem also comes from how the ramps on mid vacuum all the ammo drops under the point[/quote]
Here are the current ammo packs on b8: https://i.imgur.com/HqBivpb.png , Yellow = Medium, Green = Small
Feel free to make a suggestion on where you might move/reposition/add ammo packs.
Of note, you do have a medium ammo pack pushing every door, so it's an interesting opinion that you think that mid => 2nd is an issue, I'm more inclined to point out the opposite direction being potentially problematic.
chell...the only map where defending soldiers can comfortably rotate through spawn without it taking forever or being especially detrimental. Most maps have a very low ceiling out of the spawn doors, I imagine in part to help this.... I think soldiers getting to just rotate through spawns endlessly is what is really extending these last fights.
Hmm, this is a really insightful comment. Sultry's last uses mechanics that are present in many lasts - but in different orders.
The one-way windows are present in sunshine while gullywash allows players to see the defending team rotating through spawn, the doors themselves use the width of sunshine as reference, but as mentioned don't have that low ceiling "cubby" - this was done primary out of fear from the previously mentioned concerns (spawn being too easy to stuff), but I think you make a convincing argument for at least considering alternatives or rather resulting consequences.
In short, I think you certainty have a point but I am somewhat skeptical if what teams are doing is basically infinitely rotating their soldiers (particularly in IM), with this different perspective I'd like to go back and do some research regarding some of the most recent matches played.
Thanks for the feedback!
[quote=chell]
...the only map where defending soldiers can comfortably rotate through spawn without it taking forever or being especially detrimental. [b]Most maps have a very low ceiling out of the spawn doors[/b], I imagine in part to help this.... I think soldiers getting to just rotate through spawns endlessly is what is really extending these last fights.
[/quote]
Hmm, this is a really insightful comment. Sultry's last uses mechanics that are present in many lasts - but in different orders.
The one-way windows are present in sunshine while gullywash allows players to see the defending team rotating through spawn, the doors themselves use the width of sunshine as reference, but as mentioned don't have that low ceiling "cubby" - this was done primary out of fear from the previously mentioned concerns (spawn being too easy to stuff), but I think you make a convincing argument for at least considering alternatives or rather resulting consequences.
In short, I think you certainty have a point but I am somewhat skeptical if what teams are doing is basically infinitely rotating their soldiers (particularly in IM), with this different perspective I'd like to go back and do some research regarding some of the most recent matches played.
Thanks for the feedback!
FlipFTWand IM has the greatest number of players who are getting into the flow of utilizing the standard holds, but not necessarily knowing how to pressure/break them.
there are like 20 players in IM with adv+ experience this season lol
[quote=FlipFTW]and IM has the greatest number of players who are getting into the flow of utilizing the standard holds, but not necessarily knowing how to pressure/break them.[/quote]
there are like 20 players in IM with adv+ experience this season lol
Last needs some help. I think spawn times for the defending team need to be extended (with perhaps an extension of attacking spawns so you can push out). I think the rest of the map plays really well.
Last needs some help. I think spawn times for the defending team need to be extended (with perhaps an extension of attacking spawns so you can push out). I think the rest of the map plays really well.
It can be a little hard to effectively clear sticks off the last point due to the shape, more than any other last point
You can stand on this little intersection, not the worst thing but it's inconsistent (since there's not actually a ledge) and obviously unintentional
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/607950861703970837/1118413264326512650/20230613214249_1.jpg
It can be a little hard to effectively clear sticks off the last point due to the shape, more than any other last point
You can stand on this little intersection, not the worst thing but it's inconsistent (since there's not actually a ledge) and obviously unintentional
[img]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/607950861703970837/1118413264326512650/20230613214249_1.jpg[/img]
B8a
Spawn time changes
Simplification/Streamlining
Adjustment to lobby on last
Notes on simplification:
Removed clutter from frog box, made doors into 2nd flush
Removed slope from the towers: see finmans post above
Simplified alley walls
Pulled-in cheese hiding spot a tad, this is to make the crate flush with the wall
Demo stickies are easier to place in the junction boxes by choke/last again
Simplified a bunch of things all around the map... It's not worth explaining here.
Notes on spawn times:
>Not on last:
Both teams have 17-20 second spawn times (Respawn wave of 10)
>On last:
Defenders are 17-20 seconds (Respawn wave of 10; Was 8.5 [15-18 sec])
Attackers now have a 16-18 spawn time (Respawn wave of 8; Was 9.5 [~17-19 sec])
I should have investigated spawn times the second I got feedback on them — sorry for being late.
Overall spawn times are a pinch longer. Let's hope that doesn't have drastic consequences...
These numbers mimic cp_process and cp_snakewater : (A 8- D 10) wave time on last with 10 everywhere else
Lobby adjustment:
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/2037363577421284306/6EFFD3AA250D71F945E28D646FA8EAD14CA40CE5/
Might revert this, or keep half of it. Feedback thoughts, please.
Closing thoughts:
This map uses a new mirror method to make development more efficient. If there are any odd visual bugs please tell me.
finmanIt can be a little hard to effectively clear sticks off the last point due to the shape, more than any other last point
I'll look at this, expect a fix in 8 months. hahahaha... kidding
Download: b8a
[size=16][b]B8a[/b][/size]
Spawn time changes
Simplification/Streamlining
Adjustment to lobby on last
[size=14][b]Notes on simplification:[/b][/size]
Removed clutter from frog box, made doors into 2nd flush
Removed slope from the towers: see finmans post above
Simplified alley walls
Pulled-in cheese hiding spot a tad, this is to make the crate flush with the wall
Demo stickies are easier to place in the junction boxes by choke/last again
Simplified a bunch of things all around the map... It's not worth explaining here.
[size=14][b]Notes on spawn times:[/b][/size]
>Not on last:
Both teams have 17-20 second spawn times (Respawn wave of 10)
>On last:
Defenders are 17-20 seconds (Respawn wave of 10; Was 8.5 [15-18 sec])
Attackers now have a 16-18 spawn time (Respawn wave of 8; Was 9.5 [~17-19 sec])
I should have investigated spawn times the second I got feedback on them — sorry for being late.
Overall spawn times are a pinch longer. Let's hope that doesn't have drastic consequences...
These numbers mimic cp_process and cp_snakewater : (A 8- D 10) wave time on last with 10 everywhere else
[size=14][b]Lobby adjustment:[/b][/size]
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/2037363577421284306/6EFFD3AA250D71F945E28D646FA8EAD14CA40CE5/
Might revert this, or keep half of it. Feedback thoughts, please.
[size=14][b]Closing thoughts:[/b][/size]
This map uses a new mirror method to make development more efficient. If there are any odd visual bugs please tell me.
[quote=finman]It can be a little hard to effectively clear sticks off the last point due to the shape, more than any other last point[/img][/quote] I'll look at this, expect a fix in 8 months. [size=10]hahahaha... kidding[/size]
[size=16][b]Download:[/b][/size] [url=https://gamebanana.com/dl/1005031]b8a[/url]
the last point is still so ass, why are we still having to play this map? theres virtually no visibility and pushing is a sisyphean task unless you get 3 picks pushing 2nd
the last point is still so ass, why are we still having to play this map? theres virtually no visibility and pushing is a sisyphean task unless you get 3 picks pushing 2nd
I don't like how medics holding last can just bait near spawn and never ever die or force to a sac. I know there are workarounds and possibly better holds, but for every other map in the pool, baiting your medic next to spawn isn't nearly as viable as it is on sultry. Right now, all 3 doors into last face the same direction, which really limits the vision/spam angles of the attacking team. I think if the leftmost door into last on this map were diagonal or something, that would allow the attacking team to get more vision and see towards the point/spam the gun from an angle other than dungeon. Another option would be giving the attacking team some sort of high ground advantage on one of the doors, since dungeon and left are both significantly lower than where the defenders are playing, and top right is way too small/spammable to be a viable door most of the time. Maybe you could make top right feel more safe for the attacking team somehow, or give the door some high ground in order to allow the attackers to punish defenders who walk too close.
I really don't want this map to become another one where the creators say "I'm finished" and never change anything significant ever again. There are still problems that need to be addressed, and if there aren't updates, it should be removed from the pool like reckoner was.
I don't like how medics holding last can just bait near spawn and never ever die or force to a sac. I know there are workarounds and possibly better holds, but for every other map in the pool, baiting your medic next to spawn isn't nearly as viable as it is on sultry. Right now, all 3 doors into last face the same direction, which really limits the vision/spam angles of the attacking team. I think if the leftmost door into last on this map were diagonal or something, that would allow the attacking team to get more vision and see towards the point/spam the gun from an angle other than dungeon. Another option would be giving the attacking team some sort of high ground advantage on one of the doors, since dungeon and left are both significantly lower than where the defenders are playing, and top right is way too small/spammable to be a viable door most of the time. Maybe you could make top right feel more safe for the attacking team somehow, or give the door some high ground in order to allow the attackers to punish defenders who walk too close.
I really don't want this map to become another one where the creators say "I'm finished" and never change anything significant ever again. There are still problems that need to be addressed, and if there aren't updates, it should be removed from the pool like reckoner was.
Lobby was better in the previous version, it favors the team defending last too heavily now. Impossible to peek med as attacking sniper if the enemy demoman exists. Right now it kind of feels like snakewater lobby, if the shutter didn't exist at all and you could only walk through dropdown. Just too chokey.
I think there should be a way to see into last (check offclasses etc) without committing through a door. Why not a window in lobby? If the hiding place above dungeon is too precious to you despite being worthless above AM level, then make it 1-way glass
Lobby was better in the previous version, it favors the team defending last too heavily now. Impossible to peek med as attacking sniper if the enemy demoman exists. Right now it kind of feels like snakewater lobby, if the shutter didn't exist at all and you could only walk through dropdown. Just too chokey.
I think there should be a way to see into last (check offclasses etc) without committing through a door. Why not a window in lobby? If the hiding place above dungeon is too precious to you despite being worthless above AM level, then make it 1-way glass
lootLobby was better in the previous version, it favors the team defending last too heavily now. Impossible to peek med as attacking sniper if the enemy demoman exists. Right now it kind of feels like snakewater lobby, if the shutter didn't exist at all and you could only walk through dropdown. Just too chokey.
echoing this part a bit, most of the viable pressure comes from one doorway at the moment (the one from alley), the upper entrance into last through lobby is way to risky to pressure through for basically any class except a spamming roamer and probably needs some sort of change to address. also, still think the spawn doors need to be moved further back a little, it's very easy to defend against an uber push because the spawn is so strong still.
[quote=loot]Lobby was better in the previous version, it favors the team defending last too heavily now. Impossible to peek med as attacking sniper if the enemy demoman exists. Right now it kind of feels like snakewater lobby, if the shutter didn't exist at all and you could only walk through dropdown. Just too chokey.[/quote]
echoing this part a bit, most of the viable pressure comes from one doorway at the moment (the one from alley), the upper entrance into last through lobby is way to risky to pressure through for basically any class except a spamming roamer and probably needs some sort of change to address. also, still think the spawn doors need to be moved further back a little, it's very easy to defend against an uber push because the spawn is so strong still.
https://imgur.com/aViGKsA
moving this pack very slightly inward so that people can grab it while hugging wall would be nice imo, players will often check pack is there and hug to grab it. Not a big deal though
https://imgur.com/aViGKsA
moving this pack very slightly inward so that people can grab it while hugging wall would be nice imo, players will often check pack is there and hug to grab it. Not a big deal though
Gonna be honest. I'm so far removed from tf2/mapping/comp at this point that you guys should just elect someone else to continue this map (refresh team or some shit). I'll give the source files to whoever is capable (keyword capable). I'm not going to drag someone else through the process of updating this map, I've done that with another map in the past and it's stupid as hell. Just make sure you name the next version _fix%n in case my worldview changes and I happen to care enough to try again.
contact me on discord for map files:
.pigpig
Time input to satisfaction outputs is absurdly fucking terrible with mapping. I feel no interest in updating/continuing this map currently. Even if I had a billion dollars, time is something I don't care to contribute.
If you don't like the map and see it has no grounds for viable competitive play: petition for its removal.
sorry, I'm lame...etc...etc...too little too late I suppose :^)
Gonna be honest. I'm so far removed from tf2/mapping/comp at this point that you guys should just elect someone else to continue this map (refresh team or some shit). I'll give the source files to whoever is capable (keyword capable). I'm not going to drag someone else through the process of updating this map, I've done that with another map in the past and it's stupid as hell. Just make sure you name the next version _fix%n in case my worldview changes and I happen to care enough to try again.
contact me on discord for map files:
.pigpig
Time input to satisfaction outputs is absurdly fucking terrible with mapping. I feel no interest in updating/continuing this map currently. Even if I had a billion dollars, time is something I don't care to contribute.
If you don't like the map and see it has no grounds for viable competitive play: petition for its removal.
sorry, I'm lame...etc...etc...too little too late I suppose :^)
ty for the work u did on this map
ty for the work u did on this map