https://finance.yahoo.com/news/report-orlando-nightclub-shooter-visited-222620444.html

guy was a regular at the night club

Its sooo incompatible that we have 3.3 million Muslims in America, living perfectly fine

Look, any way you slice it and dice it, the generalizations don't hold up. The fact that you can have a bunch of violence over there and pretty much none over here just shows that the violence isn't inherent to Islam.

That's because they are not currently living under sharia law. We could go at this forever but we're getting way off topic.

except it is inherent to islam, as violence and other atrocities are what the religion (although its much more than that) preaches. Not to mention although low compared with other countries, over 13% of muslims have extremist views (death to apostates, homosexuality, etc. ). Saying that 13% doesnt count is like saying the black vote doesnt count or some ridiculous shit (although completely different planes i realize, i was comparing the fact that 13% is no small number)

A big issue in discussing gun control is the media/general public's ignorance towards guns. Let's take the AR-15, big scary black assault rifle, right? Not really. The caliber (.223) is about the same as most hunting rifles, and most AR-15s manufactured are semi-automatic, such as the one used in the shooting. Given the circumstances, a pistol or hunting rifle could probably done as much damage in the shooting in Orlando (in fact a pistol was also used in the Orlando shooting). There is almost no reason to ban a weapon that accounts for less than 2% of all gun deaths in the U.S. while also being as deadly as a hunting rifle and pistol in terms of caliber and fire rate respectively.

the only AR-15s most citizens (without extensive permits) are semi-automatic.

it's a myth that anyone can legally and easily get an automatic rifle, which is surprising that it still exists because of how little research it takes to figure out that it's incorrect

Modern Christians aren't doing it because they already did it, they already got themselves into positions of power so the KKK could get away with all their shit and so priests could systematically molest children. Jihad and Sharia are archaic versions of Islam that any modern Muslim denounces. Have you noticed that the Westboro Baptist Church is saying the shooting was Gods work? My point: stop making it about religion and trying to induce islamophobia.

yes all 100 people in the bible belt saying lunatic bullshit and probably enough terror attacks to count on my hands is pretty much just about equal to tens of thousands of attacks in the name of islam in the last 15 years. ok buddy

not to mention 'islamophobia' is bullshit, any rational human being would take a look at the quran and avoid that like the plague. even the few positive morals it holds are just literally ripped out of the torah or bible

Some weapons like the SKS for example can be modified into a fully automatic weapon, which is highly highly illegal and no many people do it. The ar15 was specifically designed to not be easily made fully auto. You are correct that they are not easy to get, just pointing out that in some situations they can be made fully auto.

Only 100 people got Trump the nomination? Nice system.
You realise that the majority of people Daesh have killed are Muslims who didn't want to follow their laws, right? Tbh it's impossible to explain islamophobia to an islamophobe. Ask sheepy, he knows I've tried. Have you even met a Muslim?

Whem ISIS stops claiming responsibility for every terrorist attack and their declared holy war, I'll stop. You have my word. If the shooter himself didn't project it as part of a religious cause I wouldn't go that direction. I'm just an observer.

stop posting falcon, you are literally too bad at arguing to be worthwhile

The muslims that the jihadis kill are not muslim enough for the jihadis. The less muslim they are, the more they disagree with all the bullshit islam teaches, and are of course then enemies of the jihad.

if you actually think trump's support base is a bunch of white super-christians, i dont even think you'd ever be able to leave living under your comfortable liberal rock of delusion

You seem to have neatly dodged what mental illness you think was relevant in this shooting

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/13/us/anderson-cooper-reads-orlando-shooting-victims-names/index.html

No matter what you think about muslims, gun control, or mental health. Its always important to remember the victims like Anderson Cooper has wonderfully done.

And what is your diagnosis, or is it just "mentally ill"? Do you think his faith may have played any part in the development of his condition?

It's just as absurdly simplistic to say "it's not guns, it's mental illness" as it is to say "it's Islam". Obviously he's not in a normal mental state, obviously he has some kind of deep psychological aggression towards homosexuality which is also a feature of his apparent faith, and if current reports are to be believed he visited the place often himself so his sexuality and his own problems with facing it may be a part of it.

How on earth do you identify this and stop him owning a gun?

All religions commit violence guys. Just the other day I saw a group of orthodox jews stoning a gentile to death.

it's not his religion he was just a nut with weapons.

Muslims are in a position of power in their own countries for 1400 years, the KKK killed less people in 86 years than the people who died at 9/11. The american infantrymen stationed in Afghanistan got pretty upset when they realise afghan culture has a lot of pedophilia going on and it never goes punished. You are not in a position to claim these things are archaic versions that "any' modern muslim denouinces, since the vast majority of muslims world wide would rather see homosexuality banned or sharia law applied to them , and the small fraction of secular muslims that exist came into being by being colonised and westernly educated for a century. Basically, if you want to have more "modern muslims" you're asking for the muslim world to be re-colonised and this time with a harsher hand, something muslims aren't afraid to do to each other (ask the Ottomans and their campaigns against insurgencies in arabia) As long as countries like saudi arabia exist with their money and influence, the moe this problem of muslim terrorism will pop up into the USA and Europe, unless you would actually profile on religion JUST LIKE the middle eastern world does (passports with your religion on it are a thing in the middle east btw ) and expel all people with ties to fundamentalist terrrorist organisations and/or crime records. (well in the middle east they just arrest them and any other young males in the family and torture them or make them "dissapear" which is even more effective tbh, but we don't want to stop down to that sense of morality, don't we. "Modern secular Islam" is a purely western kind of thing and its disappearing becuase next to the appeal of drugs, alcohol an promiscuity the social pressure to assimilate has practically fallen away, and so you get people who can't speak the native language after living there for 30 years.
http://static4.quoteswave.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/No-matter-how-disastrously.jpg

PS: on slavery; Thomas Sowell wrote a really good book on this subject

here are some excerpts
http://www.deadcatsandclippings.com/?page_id=321

7) “…the region of West Africa…was one of the great slave-trading regions of the continent – before, during, and after the white man arrived. It was Africans who enslaved their fellow Africans, selling some of these slaves to Europeans or to Arabs and keeping others for themselves. Even at the peak of Atlantic slave trade, Africans retained more slaves for themselves than they sent to the Western Hemisphere….In East Africa, the Masai were feared slave raiders and other African tribes – either alone or in conjunction with Arabs, enslaved their more vulnerable neighbors…Arabs were the leading slave raiders in East Africa, ranging over an area larger than all of Europe.”

8) “A vast literature has detailed the vile conditions under which slaves from Africa lived – and died – during their voyages to the Western Hemisphere. But the much less publicized slave trade to the Islamic countries had even higher mortality rates …most of the slaves who were marched across the Sahara…died on the way. While these were mostly women and girls, the males faced a special danger – castration to produce the eunuchs in demand as harem attendants in the Islamic world.” (126) “…vestiges of slavery still survived in parts of Africa into the twenty-first century.”

'Modern Christians" campaigned to abolish slavery world wide,battled the rights of every man and woman and their votes, better labour conditions (rerum Novarum) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rerum_novarum, instilled into the western world the "duty to help lift up the rest of the world" the start of the millions of aiid programs against starvation and epidemic disease, and even allowed their own religious convictions not stand in the way of the legal system (allowing abortion, gay marriage, etc) and called for the abolition of the death penalty successfully in most of the western world.

What have modern muslims done in that time?

If you're speaking from a position of ignorance then I don't think there's a contribution there, you're merely attempting to narrow the debate to a frame of reference that you personally are more comfortable with when you have absolutely no idea that it will go anywhere. In fact you could be promoting quite the opposite of a solution. What's required is the broadest possible assessment with policy guided by solutions that actually have a chance of working.

Gun control is a collective decision, plenty of other places in the world choose it although it might not have prevented this crime as it doesn't prevent all crimes elsewhere. Unless you're citing research into mass shootings, the mental state of their perpetrators and what intervention is possible then you're just hand waving in the most vague way possible.

Of course mass murderers aren't in a normal state of mind, but I'd have rather he had a knife instead or hadn't been brought up being told that homosexuality is an aberration before God (or taught hatred in other words). Simplism is exactly one of the things that led to this. Solutions won't be simple.

No it applies to what I said, so you're just trying to narrow the debate into terms you prefer. Again. You're the one who brought psychology into it, how he was raised is unfortunately likely to be highly relevant. Sorry you now have to contradict yourself.

Was Ghenghis Khan mentally ill or a conquerer hardened by the life and culture of the steppes?

You've backed off from all specifics, said that identifying this guy as a risk on the basis of mental illness was impossible, asserted that the level of gun control huge swathes of the populations of developed nations live under is impossible in the US, and despite that refused to engage in even the acknowledgement that other measures might be fruitful. Are you in politics by any chance?

Here's an alternative, he was so bad at hiding his behaviour he was investigated by the FBI. Seeing as he's been in contact with law enforcement that was an obvious missed opportunity. How could that be improved upon? No mental health professionals required.

Also despite the accusations of vague arguments and inflexibility I haven't insulted your intelligence yet, something you seem to be quite fond of handing out to people who disagree with you. Not a debate winner

its cool guys we only tf.tv forums
no need to write something intelligent here

http://www.blueviewnurseries.com/images/handshake.gif

Every time one of these posts come up, I become convinced that vanishingly few people understand mental illness and its effects on its sufferers, its diagnosis, treatment/management and outward signs of mental illness.

If you are going to talk about categorically removing a right from someone on the basis of mental illness, you are going to have to make DAMN sure you know what that means and how you would identify it. Do we mean that no one with depression should own a gun? That's a lot of people. Do we mean only those diagnosed with violent antisocial behaviour disorders? (think Sociopathy/Psychopathy), that involves time intensive and repeat assessments with trained clinical psychologists and board certified psychiatrists. Just not reasonable. Post hoc saying "anyone who could do this is obviously mentally ill" is not only not true, but isn't useful in any way. We need behaviours to point to before the fact that warrant the removal of a right guaranteed to us (for better or worse, not relevant to my argument).

With this guy, I think we had a history of him being a little unhinged, with episodes of domestic violence etc. Are those warning signs? Absolutely. But let me be absolutely clear, that isn't ever going to be sufficient for the removal of a right promised to a person by the law of the land they live in. You have to come up with a test that is both sensitive (catches a lot of the people who are actually going to commit a violent crime) and specific (doesn't catch a lot/any people that won't).

The way the law is written, our protections on gun ownership are as important as our protections on free assembly, speech, to vote... whether or not you think that is a good thing, that's the world we live in. If you want to approach the control topic from a perspective of mental illness, you are going to have to revolutionize the way we diagnose and manage those mental illnesses.

Also, can we stop lumping in all mental illnesses? Most people with mental illness are actually really vulnerable, underserved and at very high risk of having violence committed against them.

we need a politics board
downfrag if you agree