Upvote Upvoted 24 Downvote Downvoted
1 2 3
Tf2 update 07/01/15
31
#31
-14 Frags +

easy to say as a scout main, trying to hit a scout with remotely decent movement with direct stickies now is basically complete luck, same with airstickies on bombing soldiers

maybe that's what people want

easy to say as a scout main, trying to hit a scout with remotely decent movement with direct stickies now is basically complete luck, same with airstickies on bombing soldiers

maybe that's what people want
32
#32
13 Frags +

???
smaller radius =/= luck
it just means that u need to aim better

???
smaller radius =/= luck
it just means that u need to aim better
33
#33
15 Frags +

wow i actually need to aim to hit airshots?

what is this bullshit

and yeah scouts are hard to hit thats kinda the point of scouts

wow i actually need to aim to hit airshots?

what is this bullshit

and yeah scouts are hard to hit thats kinda the point of scouts
34
#34
3 Frags +

it's kind of difficult.
i guess we just need to get used to it.

it's kind of difficult.
i guess we just need to get used to it.
35
#35
14 Frags +

i like u mustard but come on

i like u mustard but come on
36
#36
14 Frags +

just switch to soldier its ez

just switch to soldier its ez
37
#37
24 Frags +
static???
smaller radius =/= luck
it just means that u need to aim better

this is the difference between theory and practice

in theory, a soldier could hit every direct rocket on scouts and totally dominate every fight

in practice, good scouts carry at like everything IM and higher, because their capacity to dodge dmg outshines their low hp

in theory, the best snipers would be totally indistinguishable from an aimbot

in practice, no one is that good yet

scouts are already dominant in 6v6, but demo stickies were one of the main things discouraging them from w+m1ing into the enemy team. now that's a lot less true, and scouts are gonna carry even more

[quote=static]???
smaller radius =/= luck
it just means that u need to aim better[/quote]

this is the difference between theory and practice

in theory, a soldier could hit every direct rocket on scouts and totally dominate every fight

in practice, good scouts carry at like everything IM and higher, because their capacity to dodge dmg outshines their low hp

in theory, the best snipers would be totally indistinguishable from an aimbot

in practice, no one is that good yet

scouts are already dominant in 6v6, but demo stickies were one of the main things discouraging them from w+m1ing into the enemy team. now that's a lot less true, and scouts are gonna carry even more
38
#38
ozfortress
5 Frags +
mustardoverlordgood changes, but they still need to revert the nerf entirely, it was retarded to begin with

No.

[quote=mustardoverlord]good changes, but they still need to revert the nerf entirely, it was retarded to begin with[/quote]

No.
39
#39
5 Frags +

maybe now i wont show up to mid as med with 50 hp anymore :]

maybe now i wont show up to mid as med with 50 hp anymore :]
40
#40
13 Frags +

NCBGD

NCBGD
41
#41
28 Frags +

Have no idea why mustardoverlord is getting downvoted so hard. I wouldn't say the nerf needs reverting entirely, but it makes absolutely no sense to have the old damage falloff with the new radius nerf. Demo originally had very little damage fall off so it was nerfed with the old radius in mind. The new radius and "skill" required to hit long range stickies justifies a reduction in the falloff imo - not like it was before todays update with 100+ damage winbombs from across the map, but something like 70 as the absolute max (so 50-60 is a "decent hit" rather than 35-40). I dunno, it just doesn't seem worth it to even use long range stickies now apart from some very specific situations, really does not justify the 5 seconds it takes to shoot each one.

Have no idea why mustardoverlord is getting downvoted so hard. I wouldn't say the nerf needs reverting entirely, but it makes absolutely no sense to have the old damage falloff with the new radius nerf. Demo originally had very little damage fall off so it was nerfed with the old radius in mind. The new radius and "skill" required to hit long range stickies justifies a reduction in the falloff imo - not like it was before todays update with 100+ damage winbombs from across the map, but something like 70 as the absolute max (so 50-60 is a "decent hit" rather than 35-40). I dunno, it just doesn't seem worth it to even use long range stickies now apart from some very specific situations, really does not justify the 5 seconds it takes to shoot each one.
42
#42
6 Frags +
BLoodSireNCBGD

What will you post on TFTV once they finally buff the Classic? Will you be homeless?

[quote=BLoodSire]NCBGD[/quote]
What will you post on TFTV once they finally buff the Classic? Will you be homeless?
43
#43
16 Frags +

scout confirmed best class in game

scout confirmed best class in game
44
#44
14 Frags +
rowrowBLoodSireNCBGDWhat will you post on TFTV once they finally buff the Classic? Will you be homeless?

Classic buffed. Game's not dead.

[quote=rowrow][quote=BLoodSire]NCBGD[/quote]
What will you post on TFTV once they finally buff the Classic? Will you be homeless?[/quote]

Classic buffed. Game's not dead.
45
#45
3 Frags +

the assertion that scout is now OP or demo has been rendered useless only matters if ur stickies are hitting outside of the target, where they did basically no damage and no knockback anyway

it doesnt even matter if u aim down ~3degrees neway

the assertion that scout is now OP or demo has been rendered useless only matters if ur stickies are hitting outside of the target, where they did basically no damage and no knockback anyway

it doesnt even matter if u aim down ~3degrees neway
46
#46
13 Frags +
mustardoverlord
in theory, the best snipers would be totally indistinguishable from an aimbot

in practice, no one is that good yet

not just anyone

[quote=mustardoverlord]

in theory, the best snipers would be totally indistinguishable from an aimbot

in practice, no one is that good yet
[/quote]

[url=http://youtu.be/Pw59YbPLyC8?t=8m21s]not just anyone[/url]
47
#47
11 Frags +
mustardoverlord
in theory, the best snipers would be totally indistinguishable from an aimbot

in practice, no one is that good yet

Tell that to Axiomatic

[quote=mustardoverlord]

in theory, the best snipers would be totally indistinguishable from an aimbot

in practice, no one is that good yet
[/quote]
Tell that to Axiomatic
48
#48
3 Frags +
downpourjust switch to soldier its ez

I did it, best decision possible

[quote=downpour]just switch to soldier its ez[/quote]

I did it, best decision possible
49
#49
1 Frags +
SideshowHALLELUJAH I can't get killed by a 100 damage sticky from 4 lightyears away.

EDIT: Nice little bonus for the jumping community too, cool from valve. Quickylauncher fixed too, is it viable?

Yes B)

[quote=Sideshow]HALLELUJAH I can't get killed by a 100 damage sticky from 4 lightyears away.

EDIT: Nice little bonus for the jumping community too, cool from valve. Quickylauncher fixed too, is it viable?[/quote]
Yes B)
50
#50
0 Frags +
kaidusHave no idea why mustardoverlord is getting downvoted so hard. I wouldn't say the nerf needs reverting entirely, but it makes absolutely no sense to have the old damage falloff with the new radius nerf. Demo originally had very little damage fall off so it was nerfed with the old radius in mind. The new radius and "skill" required to hit long range stickies justifies a reduction in the falloff imo - not like it was before todays update with 100+ damage winbombs from across the map, but something like 70 as the absolute max (so 50-60 is a "decent hit" rather than 35-40). I dunno, it just doesn't seem worth it to even use long range stickies now apart from some very specific situations, really does not justify the 5 seconds it takes to shoot each one.

What about Kritz? Or for buildings? Why is it bad that long-range stickies are only good in specific situations?

Stickies are supposed to be best at mid-range and for traps (and they are). I don't see why Demo needs to be rewarded for skill even more. He has one of the highest skill ceilings in the game. Sometimes you DO need a restriction on skill to make things fair...

It's only been ~9 hours since fall-off got fixed. Play it out for now. I don't think much will change.

[quote=kaidus]Have no idea why mustardoverlord is getting downvoted so hard. I wouldn't say the nerf needs reverting entirely, but it makes absolutely no sense to have the old damage falloff with the new radius nerf. Demo originally had very little damage fall off so it was nerfed with the old radius in mind. The new radius and "skill" required to hit long range stickies justifies a reduction in the falloff imo - not like it was before todays update with 100+ damage winbombs from across the map, but something like 70 as the absolute max (so 50-60 is a "decent hit" rather than 35-40). I dunno, it just doesn't seem worth it to even use long range stickies now apart from some very specific situations, really does not justify the 5 seconds it takes to shoot each one.[/quote]


What about Kritz? Or for buildings? Why is it bad that long-range stickies are only good in specific situations?

Stickies are supposed to be best at mid-range and for traps (and they are). I don't see why Demo needs to be rewarded for skill even more. He has one of the highest skill ceilings in the game. Sometimes you DO need a restriction on skill to make things fair...

It's only been ~9 hours since fall-off got fixed. Play it out for now. I don't think much will change.
51
#51
14 Frags +
bastidkaidusHave no idea why mustardoverlord is getting downvoted so hard. I wouldn't say the nerf needs reverting entirely, but it makes absolutely no sense to have the old damage falloff with the new radius nerf. Demo originally had very little damage fall off so it was nerfed with the old radius in mind. The new radius and "skill" required to hit long range stickies justifies a reduction in the falloff imo - not like it was before todays update with 100+ damage winbombs from across the map, but something like 70 as the absolute max (so 50-60 is a "decent hit" rather than 35-40). I dunno, it just doesn't seem worth it to even use long range stickies now apart from some very specific situations, really does not justify the 5 seconds it takes to shoot each one.
What about Kritz? Or for buildings? Why is it bad that long-range stickies are only good in specific situations?

Stickies are supposed to be best at mid-range and for traps (and they are). I don't see why Demo needs to be rewarded for skill even more. He has one of the highest skill ceilings in the game. Sometimes you DO need a restriction on skill to make things fair...

It's only been ~9 hours since fall-off got fixed. Play it out for now. I don't think much will change.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not foaming with rage like when the June update hit. I just don't really follow the logic. Until today I honestly believed the "no falloff bug" was not actually a bug, but just another example of the TF2 devs being out of touch with the game and it's mechanics. My perception was that they had the right idea; the fact that long range stickies now require more skill to hit meant they justified increased damage, but they'd completely overshot the mark and would soon tone it down to somewhere around the level I mentioned in the previous post. Clearly I was wrong, but I still feel the likes of mustardoverlord are justified in calling out people who claim that demoman is now perfect. A pretty significant mechanic of the class has been made redundant, which is far more frustrating than it simply being less effective than before. I feel like there's a better middle ground that doesn't leave scouts and medics feeling like they are getting fucked multiple times a map, but doesn't remove interesting aspects of the game itself for people actually playing the class.

[quote=bastid][quote=kaidus]Have no idea why mustardoverlord is getting downvoted so hard. I wouldn't say the nerf needs reverting entirely, but it makes absolutely no sense to have the old damage falloff with the new radius nerf. Demo originally had very little damage fall off so it was nerfed with the old radius in mind. The new radius and "skill" required to hit long range stickies justifies a reduction in the falloff imo - not like it was before todays update with 100+ damage winbombs from across the map, but something like 70 as the absolute max (so 50-60 is a "decent hit" rather than 35-40). I dunno, it just doesn't seem worth it to even use long range stickies now apart from some very specific situations, really does not justify the 5 seconds it takes to shoot each one.[/quote]


What about Kritz? Or for buildings? Why is it bad that long-range stickies are only good in specific situations?

Stickies are supposed to be best at mid-range and for traps (and they are). I don't see why Demo needs to be rewarded for skill even more. He has one of the highest skill ceilings in the game. Sometimes you DO need a restriction on skill to make things fair...

It's only been ~9 hours since fall-off got fixed. Play it out for now. I don't think much will change.[/quote]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not foaming with rage like when the June update hit. I just don't really follow the logic. Until today I honestly believed the "no falloff bug" was not actually a bug, but just another example of the TF2 devs being out of touch with the game and it's mechanics. My perception was that they had the right idea; the fact that long range stickies now require more skill to hit meant they justified increased damage, but they'd completely overshot the mark and would soon tone it down to somewhere around the level I mentioned in the previous post. Clearly I was wrong, but I still feel the likes of mustardoverlord are justified in calling out people who claim that demoman is now perfect. A pretty significant mechanic of the class has been made redundant, which is far more frustrating than it simply being less effective than before. I feel like there's a better middle ground that doesn't leave scouts and medics feeling like they are getting fucked multiple times a map, but doesn't remove interesting aspects of the game itself for people actually playing the class.
52
#52
0 Frags +

I'm kind of arguing that Demo doesn't need something extra he can do when he already has some of the best tools in the game. And like I said the option still presents itself during Kritz or building demolition.

All I know is I want to let the changes sit for a good while.

I'm kind of arguing that Demo doesn't need something extra he can do when he already has some of the best tools in the game. And like I said the option still presents itself during Kritz or building demolition.

All I know is I want to let the changes sit for a good while.
53
#53
1 Frags +
bastidI'm kind of arguing that Demo doesn't need something extra he can do when he already has some of the best tools in the game. And like I said the option still presents itself during Kritz or building demolition.

All I know is I want to let the changes sit for a good while.

While the change might make Demo more balanced (which is a completely null issue in a class based game to begin with) I think it just makes the class a little less enjoyable to play. There's not much point in taking long range shots when there's a low chance of hitting, and if you do it's mediocre damage. You're better off just saving ammo most of the time.

I don't understand why you would ever want to 'cap skill,' but this change doesn't cap it, it functionally removes it entirely. I COULD keep shooting long range stickies all the time, but why?

Not that I think we should go back to 2 shotting medics at mid (which was pretty hilarious for me) but I'd also like to see more damage than what we've got now.

[quote=bastid]I'm kind of arguing that Demo doesn't need something extra he can do when he already has some of the best tools in the game. And like I said the option still presents itself during Kritz or building demolition.

All I know is I want to let the changes sit for a good while.[/quote]

While the change might make Demo more balanced (which is a completely null issue in a class based game to begin with) I think it just makes the class a little less enjoyable to play. There's not much point in taking long range shots when there's a low chance of hitting, and if you do it's mediocre damage. You're better off just saving ammo most of the time.

I don't understand why you would ever want to 'cap skill,' but this change doesn't cap it, it functionally removes it entirely. I COULD keep shooting long range stickies all the time, but why?

Not that I think we should go back to 2 shotting medics at mid (which was pretty hilarious for me) but I'd also like to see more damage than what we've got now.
54
#54
5 Frags +

This is all leading up to scout becoming the killing machine it was meant to be

This is all leading up to scout becoming the killing machine it was meant to be
55
#55
3 Frags +
iFY_This is all leading up to scout becoming the killing machine it was meant to be

Scouts were always meant to push flags, capture flags and get information on other teams.
Scout was never a fragging class until TF2. If any class is broken, it's the scout from the beginning.

[quote=iFY_]This is all leading up to scout becoming the killing machine it was meant to be[/quote]

Scouts were always meant to push flags, capture flags and get information on other teams.
Scout was [b]never[/b] a fragging class until TF2. If any class is broken, it's the scout from the beginning.
56
#56
2 Frags +
AllealI don't understand why you would ever want to 'cap skill,' but this change doesn't cap it, it functionally removes it entirely.

The problem with extremely high skill ceilings, where the end goal is being better than everything else, is that good players will recognize that potential and practice over and over until they reach godlike levels and end up invalidating other options. Technical barriers are never a problem to dedicated players. As an example Melee Fox is hard to pick up but invalidates lots of characters and multiple stages are banned due to his power. He has a very tough learning curve but players learned, because he's the best and they want to win.

Basically, just because something takes skill (and/or is fun for the user), doesn't always mean it's good for the game.

It might suck to lose an option you previously had (and I blame Valve for waiting so long for another Sticky nerf because 2009 was the last time it was tweaked) but did Demoman really need it? Maybe more Demos will jump at mids now instead of hanging back to charge stickies? Dunno. I think you can still hit good numbers from sticky sniping.

[quote=Alleal]I don't understand why you would ever want to 'cap skill,' but this change doesn't cap it, it functionally removes it entirely.[/quote]

The problem with extremely high skill ceilings, where the end goal is being better than everything else, is that good players will recognize that potential and practice over and over until they reach godlike levels and end up invalidating other options. Technical barriers are never a problem to dedicated players. As an example Melee Fox is hard to pick up but invalidates lots of characters and multiple stages are banned due to his power. He has a very tough learning curve but players learned, because he's the best and they want to win.

Basically, just because something takes skill (and/or is fun for the user), doesn't always mean it's good for the game.

It might suck to lose an option you previously had (and I blame Valve for waiting so long for another Sticky nerf because 2009 was the last time it was tweaked) but did Demoman really need it? Maybe more Demos will jump at mids now instead of hanging back to charge stickies? Dunno. I think you can still hit good numbers from sticky sniping.
57
#57
4 Frags +

In other words, all options should scale with skill.

In other words, all options should scale with skill.
58
#58
1 Frags +

That too

That too
59
#59
15 Frags +
kaidusHave no idea why mustardoverlord is getting downvoted so hard.

we are outnumbered by the ~scout mains~ my friend

[quote=kaidus]Have no idea why mustardoverlord is getting downvoted so hard.[/quote]

we are outnumbered by the ~scout mains~ my friend
60
#60
-10 Frags +
bastidMaybe more Demos will jump at mids now instead of hanging back to charge stickies? Dunno. I think you can still hit good numbers from sticky sniping.

functionally, the change itself didn't affect the play of anyone's demoman (based off the two scrims I got upset in today), but there's now no longer any clutch moments where a demo hits a crossmap sticky and drops a med, which while frustrating, was also really interesting and engaging.

A cool compromise might be removing falloff for both demo weapons, but then lowering actual sticky damage to a fixed amount a la the pipes, or removing fall off but leaving ramp up

idk I think the community actually kind of has the dialogue open right now, so make a thread on tumblr or reddit or whatevs

[quote=bastid]
Maybe more Demos will jump at mids now instead of hanging back to charge stickies? Dunno. I think you can still hit good numbers from sticky sniping.[/quote]
functionally, the change itself didn't affect the play of anyone's demoman (based off the two scrims I got upset in today), but there's now no longer any clutch moments where a demo hits a crossmap sticky and drops a med, which while frustrating, was also really interesting and engaging.

A cool compromise might be removing falloff for both demo weapons, but then lowering actual sticky damage to a fixed amount a la the pipes, or removing fall off but leaving ramp up

idk I think the community actually kind of has the dialogue open right now, so make a thread on tumblr or reddit or whatevs
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