the majority of the complaints levied against the QF were raised during and after a single game played on what is historically the most stalemate prone map in the game: gullywash
@i46 Mixup > infused 2-1
@i46 Mixup > LG 1-0
@S14 HRG > Mixup 3-2
having played in all of these matches, I can assure you that the real cause of stalemates is a high-stakes environment compounded by a map that's defined by chokepoints and an incredibly easy-to-defend last point
and while there are valid merits to banning to the quick fix, pushing for the removal of an unlock as a panacea to the sometimes slow and boring nature of high-level, high-stakes tf2 isn't one
the majority of the complaints levied against the QF were raised during and after [b]a single game[/b] played on what is historically [b]the most stalemate prone map in the game[/b]: gullywash
@i46 Mixup > infused 2-1
@i46 Mixup > LG 1-0
@S14 HRG > Mixup 3-2
having played in all of these matches, I can assure you that the real cause of stalemates is a high-stakes environment compounded by a map that's defined by chokepoints and an incredibly easy-to-defend last point
[b]and while there are valid merits to banning to the quick fix[/b], pushing for the removal of an unlock as a panacea to the sometimes slow and boring nature of high-level, high-stakes tf2 isn't one
I figure when we develop a standard counter to the quickfix it will be mostly useless.
I figure when we develop a standard counter to the quickfix it will be mostly useless.
Do you believe we need to remove gullywash or rework the last?
Do you believe we need to remove gullywash or rework the last?
when two teams play at lan on the most stalematey map for the championship you're gonna have a stalemate almost guarenteed.
having a newly buffed weapon also adds to it along with the annoying fucking heavies
i would play defensive as hell too if i were playing for 6000 bucks
when two teams play at lan on the most stalematey map for the championship you're gonna have a stalemate almost guarenteed.
having a newly buffed weapon also adds to it along with the annoying fucking heavies
i would play defensive as hell too if i were playing for 6000 bucks
The funny thing is if quick fix suited HRG you guys would all be calling for it to be banned well before lan (it should have been), also what does the qf add to the game other then just making medic easier to play and turning the game into a DM fest
The funny thing is if quick fix suited HRG you guys would all be calling for it to be banned well before lan (it should have been), also what does the qf add to the game other then just making medic easier to play and turning the game into a DM fest
Benson-i'm 12
congratulations you've won the argument
[quote=Benson-]i'm 12[/quote]
congratulations you've won the argument
Benson-making medic easier to play
ok this isnt true
and turning the game into a DM fest
ya it was def a dm fest at lan alright
[quote=Benson-]making medic easier to play[/quote]
ok this isnt true
[quote] and turning the game into a DM fest[/quote]
ya it was def a dm fest at lan alright
acknowledge and respond to every idiot in the community
acknowledge and respond to every idiot in the community
So are you rallying to get it unbanned or are you just making it clear the majority opinion was misguided?
So are you rallying to get it unbanned or are you just making it clear the majority opinion was misguided?
well his argument wasnt concerning the balance of the weapon, rather that the slow, stalemated as fuck game(s) resulted in a QF scapegoat
well his argument wasnt concerning the balance of the weapon, rather that the slow, stalemated as fuck game(s) resulted in a QF scapegoat
YouMustMikeSo are you rallying to get it unbanned or are you just making it clear the majority opinion was misguided?
the latter
[quote=YouMustMike]So are you rallying to get it unbanned or are you just making it clear the majority opinion was misguided?[/quote]
the latter
but lets be honest the "majority" opinion is the only reason it is banned
but lets be honest the "majority" opinion is the only reason it is banned
I don't know how to feel. pls
I don't know how to feel. pls
just listen to your blue name overlords they know whats best
just listen to your blue name overlords they know whats best
I think it should be banned (for now) on 5cp, but allowed on ad and koth.
I think it should be banned (for now) on 5cp, but allowed on ad and koth.
PowerofTowerI think it should be banned (for now) on 5cp, but allowed on ad and koth.
stop please, stop.
[quote=PowerofTower]I think it should be banned (for now) on 5cp, but allowed on ad and koth.[/quote]
stop please, stop.
enigma@i46 Mixup > LG 1-0
@S14 HRG > Mixup 3-2
It's been a year since i46, but that LG v. Mix^ game was 1-0 that was extremely back-and-forth, no? As in, both teams had multiple failed pushes on last? That's a starkly different story than the HRG v. Mix^ match last weekend, with you guys basically "attacking" last for seemingly an entire half. It's not exactly desirable, either, but to me it's a more desirable result of a low/no-scoring half.
I don't think anyone would disagree that gullywash is highly stalemate-y. It's the most unconventional 5CP map with the biggest chokes pushing second and a highly constricted last. But I think it's disingenuous to state that seeing just the mix^ v. HRG match is what caused this outcry. The game was fundamentally different. Scouts had fewer big plays, and were far more often playing heavy or sniper. Roamers didn't have much to do. Even on open maps in open games (e.g. Process), it was Pocket+Soldier+Heavy to make plays, in my view.
FWIW, I personally think viaduct was a improved with the QF and I wish Killing would reconsider the QF ban and allow it exclusively on KOTH maps right now (assuming something like that is possible in the ruleset).
[quote=enigma]
@i46 Mixup > LG 1-0
@S14 HRG > Mixup 3-2
[/quote]
It's been a year since i46, but that LG v. Mix^ game was 1-0 that was extremely back-and-forth, no? As in, both teams had multiple failed pushes on last? That's a starkly different story than the HRG v. Mix^ match last weekend, with you guys basically "attacking" last for seemingly an entire half. It's not exactly desirable, either, but to me it's a more desirable result of a low/no-scoring half.
I don't think anyone would disagree that gullywash is highly stalemate-y. It's the most unconventional 5CP map with the biggest chokes pushing second and a highly constricted last. But I think it's disingenuous to state that seeing just the mix^ v. HRG match is what caused this outcry. The game was fundamentally different. Scouts had fewer big plays, and were far more often playing heavy or sniper. Roamers didn't have much to do. Even on open maps in open games (e.g. Process), it was Pocket+Soldier+Heavy to make plays, in my view.
FWIW, I personally think viaduct was a improved with the QF and I wish Killing would reconsider the QF ban and allow it exclusively on KOTH maps right now (assuming something like that is possible in the ruleset).
The Quick-fix is just a ploy! It got buffed around the same time the NSA started spying on us!!! The Government buffed the Quick-Fix so they could keep illegally spying on us with us preoccupied!!!
It's all connected!!!
The Quick-fix is just a ploy! It got buffed around the same time the NSA started spying on us!!! The Government buffed the Quick-Fix so they could keep illegally spying on us with us preoccupied!!!
It's all connected!!!
i think quick fix would be fine in the hands of a team that just fucking pushes instead of sitting around waiting for a pick
make your own advantages or go spy or something jesus christ just push
i think quick fix would be fine in the hands of a team that just fucking pushes instead of sitting around waiting for a pick
make your own advantages or go spy or something jesus christ just push
Quickfix made the whole event tiresome to watch, it just so happens that this gullywash game was so awful that it pushed people over the edge.
Quickfix made the whole event tiresome to watch, it just so happens that this gullywash game was so awful that it pushed people over the edge.
why is mason still blue
dump dump
why is mason still blue
dump dump
Gullywash is never fun, with or without quickfix.
Gullywash is never fun, with or without quickfix.
I think it's an overreaction. It should've been banned for this season (because obviously people are not used to it) but allowed in the next. However, I have to acknowledge that whoever is making these decisions is much better at TF2 than I am.
I think it's an overreaction. It should've been banned for this season (because obviously people are not used to it) but allowed in the next. However, I have to acknowledge that whoever is making these decisions is much better at TF2 than I am.
It seems highly disingenuous to use those scores from i46 as a straight up comparison to the quick fix debacle. They were reached under the European ruleset where games only take a half hour and tend to be slower in general since the shorter time limit rewards that style of play. If you were to shorten this game to the same time, it would be even lower scoring than the two mentioned (0-0) and that's without any of the incentives to play slow.
However, just focusing on that ignores your main point that the quick fix is being unfairly blamed for problems with Gullywash and competitive tf2 in general. While that is certainly true to a point, I would disagree that it is just a result of a single game played over the course of the lan. I can only speak for myself, but as a spectator, I was extremely disappointed by the lan in general in a way that I've never felt watching tf2. I would go so far as to say that the inclusion of the quick fix ruined this lan for me. Banning the quick fix for future seasons seems like the best way to ensure that this can never happen again.
It seems highly disingenuous to use those scores from i46 as a straight up comparison to the quick fix debacle. They were reached under the European ruleset where games only take a half hour and tend to be slower in general since the shorter time limit rewards that style of play. If you were to shorten this game to the same time, it would be even lower scoring than the two mentioned (0-0) and that's without any of the incentives to play slow.
However, just focusing on that ignores your main point that the quick fix is being unfairly blamed for problems with Gullywash and competitive tf2 in general. While that is certainly true to a point, I would disagree that it is just a result of a single game played over the course of the lan. I can only speak for myself, but as a spectator, I was extremely disappointed by the lan in general in a way that I've never felt watching tf2. I would go so far as to say that the inclusion of the quick fix ruined this lan for me. Banning the quick fix for future seasons seems like the best way to ensure that this can never happen again.
enigmaBenson-i'm 12
congratulations you've won the argument
jesus christ
[quote=enigma][quote=Benson-]i'm 12[/quote]
congratulations you've won the argument[/quote]
jesus christ
Also the NSA took my blue name. rip
Also the NSA took my blue name. rip
Benson-The funny thing is if quick fix suited HRG you guys would all be calling for it to be banned well before lan (it should have been), also what does the qf add to the game other then just making medic easier to play and turning the game into a DM fest
http://i.imgur.com/EwWVBGJ.gif
[quote=Benson-]The funny thing is if quick fix suited HRG you guys would all be calling for it to be banned well before lan (it should have been), also what does the qf add to the game other then just making medic easier to play and turning the game into a DM fest[/quote]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/EwWVBGJ.gif[/img]
I've never been a fan of Gully and catch shit for it, but I was riveted during the 1-0 i46 match along with the other low scoring examples. I fucking love this game! During this lan however, I turned on the CS streams because I was that bored.
Med positioning isn't as important (easy escapes), forcing uber is harder, build is faster, the window for pushing with advantage is smaller, demos often play more passive. All of these things point towards a game with more static hold time, and less risk.
QF is quite strong on roll-out, so most teams will run it most of the time. Due to this, I think this weekend saw more fairly definitive mid wins end up with an immediate 'stalemate' instead of capping point 2 thanks to the faster build and travel time of QF.
While QF pushes are fucking wild and meds get to show off some airstrafing skills it feels like the uber advantages mean a little less, so pushes were less frequent making the games sometimes feel slower. Perhaps super aggro strats will develop to crush the flank with flying medics, but right now that doesn't seem to be the case.
A vote would be good and keeping with ESEA policy. Let those most devoted to the game decide it. At least keep the option open for the off season to see where the strats lead.
I've never been a fan of Gully and catch shit for it, but I was riveted during the 1-0 i46 match along with the other low scoring examples. I fucking love this game! During this lan however, I turned on the CS streams because I was that bored.
Med positioning isn't as important (easy escapes), forcing uber is harder, build is faster, the window for pushing with advantage is smaller, demos often play more passive. All of these things point towards a game with more static hold time, and less risk.
QF is quite strong on roll-out, so most teams will run it most of the time. Due to this, I think this weekend saw more fairly definitive mid wins end up with an immediate 'stalemate' instead of capping point 2 thanks to the faster build and travel time of QF.
While QF pushes are fucking wild and meds get to show off some airstrafing skills it feels like the uber advantages mean a little less, so pushes were less frequent making the games sometimes feel slower. Perhaps super aggro strats will develop to crush the flank with flying medics, but right now that doesn't seem to be the case.
A vote would be good and keeping with ESEA policy. Let those most devoted to the game decide it. At least keep the option open for the off season to see where the strats lead.