What is stopping you from using it in a match though? The other team isn't going to forfeit, well they shouldn't.

People don't like scrimming against teams who run unconventional line ups because 99.9% of teams they play (your team being the .01%) run the standard class setup. There is no point in scrimming and learning how to counter play a set up only 1 team uses. That's not how they get better

So if I go ahead and win open by running full time pyro you'd be convinced it would be the recipe to success in any situation, at any level of play and also work for any team out there.

By your logic, because something works at a low level against people who don't know the game as well, it should work at every other level of play and be tried out in an official release which targets the masses? I'm sure you can figure out that's a pretty awful idea regardless of how you argue it, this coming from someone who likes off-classing too.

The current best class composition in mm has two heavies, I wouldn't worry too much about that...

all gamemodes are stale if you make it stale

only major change in any meta ive seen in a while has been demoknight in hl and 6s, but that is nerfed to shit now

Even though the amount of money in this game is low, it's still there, and believe me, people play to win in ESEA playoffs -- no matter the division. If there was a better class combination that would allow you to perform better, it would be used, and I'm sure no one would blame them, even if it was less fun. I mean, you do see engineer/pyro/sniper holds pretty often on certain lasts, and that's because it's good. If such a composition was good in other situations, it would be used.

Also, it doesn't matter whether the class composition is "fresh" or not -- all that matters is that it's the best all-around composition in most situations for 6v6.

As for the CEVO team, that's not really relevant. You could use a bad class combination and get away with it if your team is just marginally better than theirs. None of the Invite teams run a weird composition for a reason, except for things such as sniper to mid or heavy kritz, that can actually be viable in certain scenarios.

I was simply pointing out that novel compositions can work--most players are at the cevo level or below, no? Do you expect top tier MM to rival real teams playing in a league? I'm saying there really hasn't been substantial experimentation here, and any attempts to do so are highly discouraged or virtually prevented by orthodoxy.

It feels like he is deliberately ignoring points that invalidate what he said.

Isn't the point of mm to bring new players into 6s/esea

p decent point right there, i wonder how stabby will respond to this

oh by not addressing it, ok cool

dude you wrecked some idiots while running an aggressively bad class comp, just to showcase how much better your players were, while effectively wasting their time

thats sometimes referred to as Bad Manners

dont get on your high horse and talk about trying to break up the dogma when y'all were just being dickheads for a giggle

novel compositions CAN work, and you CAN run one of each class in MM

wouldnt restricting MM to 1 of each class just limit the number of "novel compositions" you could run?

No, teaching people to play the game in the most inefficient way and then trying to attract the audience to OUR 6v6 rules would lower the skill ceiling and pretty much alter rules to the point of ruining what has been perfected for years in terms of gameplay. The whole point of MM is (from my POV) to attract new players to our scene (which is now mainly ETF2L/ESEA) and you don't do that by completely shitting on the core strategy and IMPROVEMENTS we implemented during the past few years.

The only way your idea could ever work is by having everyone playing shitty compositions and see which shittier composition triumphs, that isn't the TF2 I enjoyed playing and pretty sure no one else does for a good reason.

I get what you're saying, but all of that is based on the assumption of stabby understanding that spy isn't viable full time in 6's, which after reading his replies in this thread, I'm not so sure that he does.

Can you explain how switching to 1 class limit will prevent a standard meta set up. There will be class experimentation until people quickly find out what the best class composition is for mid fights and last pushing/holding. You keep saying that class limits should be set to 1 so people will experiment with new classes to make the game less stale but as soon as people figure out what the optimal class lineup is the meta will quickly become even more stale than the 6v6 one.

I feel like these arguments are completely divorced from the fact that you think the solution is to limit each class to one player. The players that support the "6's meta" are going to be absolutely outnumbered when matchmaking comes. If what you're saying is really true, and any combination of classes can succeed, we will see any class combination rise to the top of the ranks, no class limit needed.

You make a good point.

I'll go ahead and bow out for real now...I made a tweet about a half-baked musing I had while baked off my ass at 4am...I wish the response were more of a conversation and a little more civil, but frankly guys it didn't merit a thread.

Again, I didn't mean to offend. Can we be friends? I like team fortress and so do you :>

This thread is the perfect use of the hiding posts chrome extension

Well it's very good that you are able admit that you weren't 100% right. Most people are way to stubborn to do that so I have a lot of respect for someone who can do it. I didn't mean to be too harsh so sorry if I was.

All good, man. It's the Internet :)

this is on the front page now

Rolling CEVO is like bragging that you ran that class comp in a pug and won

also merbo was the guy that faked his death

what happened to him now

is he still around

So for matchmaking you would rather just kill the meta in favour of everyone having to run some shit composition? That makes no sense whatsoever, if you think the normal composition is stale then you don't have to run it. Just don't expect any success.

Budsquad at the time was playing in mid-IM and Steven didn't play demoknight for the entire thing, hell most of the time he did it it was just for his single video about it. He was playing scout, solly, and once I casted him playing med on Sunshine.

They tried something out and it was sometimes effective simply because it was different but they actually lost most of the time, he just used the highlights for his video. He played the rest of the season fairly normally.

I guess if you want the least restrictive for MM then leave as is, 6v6 where anything and everything goes. Slowly people will start to realize why you run cookie cutter(2 scout/solly, dem, medic). because if the player skill is about equal, you will not beat cookie cutte with a different comp[ then u do small restrictions like banning OP weapons or restricting med/demo to 1-"]

I imagine most tf2 players want to have fun, but they also want to get better(the majority) so they will use what's best. If you can't beat them, join them

You're honestly just so wrong, and that's exactly why every plat team (except maybe top 1/2) has been bad for a long ass time. It's actually incredible to see people play koth maps, for example, literally just sitting next to their sniper until he gets a good kill. This "playstyle" is quite exploitable simply because relying on single players to get kills EVERY time is impractical and unreliable; if your whole team is relying on your sniper to get a pick, then the other team can just play more aggressive, not allowing your sniper to do anything.

Even though sniper picks are obviously heavily weighed, you don't need one to push, and you can even shut down a sniper who is playing well, so it doesn't always come down to how well your sniper can carry, but also how bad the other team is at effectively shutting down the sniper. I can 100% assure you that it is much harder to play against a team that has their spy, for instance, shooting the sniper (not even securing the kill) than a team that pockets their sniper to get the kill. It's also much more reliable to distract than it is to actually get that particular kill, so having your spy distract is quite effective, and snipers can also distract while their team pushes as well.

Hl is p stupid though. 9 players in a server is quite hectic.

no general tf2 community deserves to be forced to play pyro,engineer, or spy in their mm games

how can you have a (civil) conversation with someone who ignores all the good points that were made against his "arguments"?
besides, you might've made that tweet when you were stoned and maybe tired, but were you also stoned and tired all the time you were defending it here?
anyway, i think saying there has been too little experimentation says how much you know about 6s

I don't want to make a whole big post on this, but the thing is that in a way, this is the most fun, fair, and best format that has been developed for us. The reason we don't change it after all these years is that it is pretty much perfect or near perfection. You may somewhat think that change is necessary in competitive games or games themselves but that's not necessarily true. It works for games like Dota 2, cause it requires changes and patches in a way to freshen up things. TF2 and FPS games are completely different. Look at CSGO or CS in general for example, technically that game is still stale in their 5v5 format and how things work, but that's because it works. Just like how our current 6v6 2121 format works(2 scout 1 demo 2 soldier 1 med). Although, new unlocks that come out do time to time change how we play. We utilize gunboats, direct hit, kritzkrieg, and much more in different ways. We even have offclasses time to time to attempt to end stalemates.

But in the end, there are multiple games that have stayed nearly the same with minimal changes that makes the game work. TF2 is definitely one of those games we have seen, at least in the competitive 6v6 format. It's possibly also why we even love competitive TF2. Now your tweet is pertaining to matchmaking, and I think that everything should be at most a max of 2 except for heavy and medic for a fair try, and if needed, demo to 1 also. It does suck that you did just post your own opinion and we attacked you for it though. While we all may be right and such, I think we need decrease or stop our attacks on our own TF2 comrades. Competitive TF2/MM is getting closer and bigger and if possible, we should attempt to act like a supportive and not so offensive community.

Damn it, I made another somewhat long post.

Highlander <|8O)