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Stabby talks class balance
121
#121
-6 Frags +

stabby plays the banjo

https://soundcloud.com/stabbysounds/pumpkin

stabby plays the banjo

https://soundcloud.com/stabbysounds/pumpkin
122
#122
48 Frags +

ggglygy, rando, and four other players ran 6 smgs/syringe guns/panic attacks in matchmaking and didnt drop a round to their competition

this is the new meta right

ggglygy, rando, and four other players ran 6 smgs/syringe guns/panic attacks in matchmaking and didnt drop a round to their competition

this is the new meta right
123
#123
2 Frags +
stabbyThe class composition for 6's has seen 0 experimentation since the days of the format's inception. That's simply fact.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IObDQ3hB86M

[quote=stabby]The class composition for 6's has seen 0 experimentation since the days of the format's inception. That's simply fact.
[/quote]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IObDQ3hB86M
124
#124
-2 Frags +
stabbyMax_stabbyI brought it up to illustrate the point that there is indeed major barriers to creativity and experimentation in class composition. Show me an invite team that has run something other than the old standard + a dash of offclassing, please.There is literally nothing stopping players from running 2 Snipers, 1 Spy, 1 Pyro, a Heavy and a Engineer.I think teams refusing to play you prevents players from playing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_23z9yJAq0&ebc=ANyPxKpLJC8Q5bpfrikW8bpC3XoBg-t5uUQ_Vh8LVv78bQ9xdtPe_at63u1G6bq2kz8pjF1LtH_HMGEX-3b_ALwcXQTaLWyQrQ

[quote=stabby][quote=Max_][quote=stabby]I brought it up to illustrate the point that there is indeed major barriers to creativity and experimentation in class composition. Show me an invite team that has run something other than the old standard + a dash of offclassing, please.[/quote]
There is literally nothing stopping players from running 2 Snipers, 1 Spy, 1 Pyro, a Heavy and a Engineer.[/quote]
I think teams refusing to play you prevents players from playing.[/quote]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_23z9yJAq0&ebc=ANyPxKpLJC8Q5bpfrikW8bpC3XoBg-t5uUQ_Vh8LVv78bQ9xdtPe_at63u1G6bq2kz8pjF1LtH_HMGEX-3b_ALwcXQTaLWyQrQ
125
#125
1 Frags +

the guy already said he was in the wrong. is that really necessary?

the guy already said he was in the wrong. is that really necessary?
126
#126
35 Frags +

6v6 is stale we need more cloak and dagger spies and cart pushing

6v6 is stale we need more cloak and dagger spies and cart pushing
127
#127
3 Frags +

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00UAFS5ZC?keywords=wallet&nodeID=7141123011&qid=1457848816&ref_=sr_1_170&refinements=p_36%3A2661612011%2Cp_85%3A2470955011&rps=1&s=apparel&sr=1-170

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00UAFS5ZC?keywords=wallet&nodeID=7141123011&qid=1457848816&ref_=sr_1_170&refinements=p_36%3A2661612011%2Cp_85%3A2470955011&rps=1&s=apparel&sr=1-170&tag=teamfortresst-20
128
#128
37 Frags +
Martythe guy already said he was in the wrong. is that really necessary?

when he admits it was a bad idea to his 4.6k followers instead of acting like a victim I'll be happy

[quote=Marty]the guy already said he was in the wrong. is that really necessary?[/quote]
when he admits it was a bad idea to his 4.6k followers instead of acting like a victim I'll be happy
129
#129
5 Frags +
stabbyThe class composition for 6's has seen 0 experimentation since the days of the format's inception. That's simply fact.

The primary reason why the class composition is how it is is based on the mobility of each class. Sure, you could throw a GRU heavy on the map in matchmaking with a disciplinary action soldier babysitting him as well, but are you going to get the same effect as a demo/soldier combo that can rapidly move around the map far better than a heavy? The reason why class composition doesn't work outside of the cookie cutter 6s classes is because any single class outside of the medic, demo, soldier, and scout can be easily countered by one of the standard classes. Pit a heavy on second and slowly push forward? A demo can counter that. Maybe a pyro to deny jumping soldiers? Have a scout focus him down since pyro has little counters against a scout that can keep his range. Engineer building stuff? Soldier/demo counters it. Spy lurking around? Have the medic watch his back as well as use splash damage to check for a spy. And depending on what class is being lost, a standard 6s team can work around that, using their superior mobility to take more ground. Spy using a gun? Have a scout/soldier focus him down where he was last. It makes the format more based on raw skill and teamwork rather than who can gimmick the other team the most (despite the NA/EU gimmicks meme that exists).

TL:DR - the class composition is the way it is because of mobility and how each class has one or more superior trait(s) that set it above a certain number of others. It's not because we have a "precious meta", it's because it's been tried and doesn't work. Don't believe me? Try it for yourself against equally players of equal skill level to yours.

[quote=stabby]The class composition for 6's has seen 0 experimentation since the days of the format's inception. That's simply fact.
[/quote]

The primary reason why the class composition is how it is is based on the mobility of each class. Sure, you could throw a GRU heavy on the map in matchmaking with a disciplinary action soldier babysitting him as well, but are you going to get the same effect as a demo/soldier combo that can rapidly move around the map far better than a heavy? The reason why class composition doesn't work outside of the cookie cutter 6s classes is because any single class outside of the medic, demo, soldier, and scout can be easily countered by one of the standard classes. Pit a heavy on second and slowly push forward? A demo can counter that. Maybe a pyro to deny jumping soldiers? Have a scout focus him down since pyro has little counters against a scout that can keep his range. Engineer building stuff? Soldier/demo counters it. Spy lurking around? Have the medic watch his back as well as use splash damage to check for a spy. And depending on what class is being lost, a standard 6s team can work around that, using their superior mobility to take more ground. Spy using a gun? Have a scout/soldier focus him down where he was last. It makes the format more based on raw skill and teamwork rather than who can gimmick the other team the most (despite the NA/EU gimmicks meme that exists).

TL:DR - the class composition is the way it is because of mobility and how each class has one or more superior trait(s) that set it above a certain number of others. It's not because we have a "precious meta", it's because it's been tried and doesn't work. Don't believe me? Try it for yourself against equally players of equal skill level to yours.
130
#130
21 Frags +

As soon as someone makes a logical and intelligent point, stabby simply nullifies it with "6s is stale" "in cevo I ran spy" or some reasoning that does not hold up to even the slightest criticism.

As soon as someone makes a logical and intelligent point, stabby simply nullifies it with "6s is stale" "in cevo I ran spy" or some reasoning that does not hold up to even the slightest criticism.
131
#131
7 Frags +

I will rescind all statements in this thread if Stabby wins open s22 playing spy every game

I will rescind all statements in this thread if Stabby wins open s22 playing spy every game
132
#132
32 Frags +

Honestly Dane's comments are cringier, at least stabby has a form of higher skill comp experience, albeit mainly HL. Dane plays what like silver highlander and constantly shittalks on the 'stale' 6s meta.

Honestly Dane's comments are cringier, at least stabby has a form of higher skill comp experience, albeit mainly HL. Dane plays what like silver highlander and constantly shittalks on the 'stale' 6s meta.
133
#133
5 Frags +
MertHonestly Dane's comments are cringier, at least stabby has a form of higher skill comp experience, albeit mainly HL. Dane plays what like silver highlander and constantly shittalks on the 'stale' 6s meta.

I thought Dane stopped that after KevinIsPwn's response video?

[quote=Mert]Honestly Dane's comments are cringier, at least stabby has a form of higher skill comp experience, albeit mainly HL. Dane plays what like silver highlander and constantly shittalks on the 'stale' 6s meta.[/quote]
I thought Dane stopped that after KevinIsPwn's response video?
134
#134
2 Frags +

My favorite thing in the world is people formulating opinions on a meta that hasn't even formed yet.

My favorite thing in the world is people formulating opinions on a meta that hasn't even formed yet.
135
#135
-5 Frags +
sheepy_dogs_hand
Well it's very good that you are able admit that you weren't 100% right. Most people are way to stubborn to do that so I have a lot of respect for someone who can do it. I didn't mean to be too harsh so sorry if I was.

thats funny coming from you

[quote=sheepy_dogs_hand]

Well it's very good that you are able admit that you weren't 100% right. Most people are way to stubborn to do that so I have a lot of respect for someone who can do it. I didn't mean to be too harsh so sorry if I was.[/quote]
thats funny coming from you
136
#136
37 Frags +

http://i.imgur.com/ptpvGMV.png

smh

[img]http://i.imgur.com/ptpvGMV.png[/img]

smh
137
#137
38 Frags +

I'm expecting stabby to call for a ban on four-wheeled one-engine cars because the car manufacturing meta is stale. Why not 5 wheels and 2 engines?

In all seriousness though, the reason why Scout and Soldier limit shouldn't be 1 is the same reason Demoman, Heavy, Engineer and Medic (in ETF2L Pyro and Sniper as well) limit is 1. It slows the game down.
Limit 1 for all would absolutely work, it would just be awful to play and awful to watch.
Spoiler alert for the Pyro and Spy mains: The second Scout and Soldier won't be replaced by Pyro and Spy. They'll be replaced by Heavy and Sniper. Every map is cp_gullywash now. glhf with pushing.

I'm expecting stabby to call for a ban on four-wheeled one-engine cars because the car manufacturing meta is stale. Why not 5 wheels and 2 engines?

In all seriousness though, the reason why Scout and Soldier limit shouldn't be 1 is the same reason Demoman, Heavy, Engineer and Medic (in ETF2L Pyro and Sniper as well) limit is 1. It slows the game down.
Limit 1 for all would absolutely work, it would just be awful to play and awful to watch.
Spoiler alert for the Pyro and Spy mains: The second Scout and Soldier won't be replaced by Pyro and Spy. They'll be replaced by Heavy and Sniper. Every map is cp_gullywash now. glhf with pushing.
138
#138
15 Frags +
eeei posted this on /r/tf2 so i can get upvotes on the cringe thread

omg scrolling the comments a bit even fucking tf2 reddit doesn't agree with stabby

[quote=eee]i posted this on /r/tf2 so i can get upvotes on the cringe thread[/quote]
omg scrolling the comments a bit even fucking tf2 reddit doesn't agree with stabby
139
#139
4 Frags +

DONT WORRY STABBY WE ALL SAW "9s" ON THE MM MENU YOU WILL GET YOU DUMB GAMEMODE AFTER VALVE FINISHES THE MORE IMPORTANT GAMEMODES

DONT WORRY STABBY WE ALL SAW "9s" ON THE MM MENU YOU WILL GET YOU DUMB GAMEMODE AFTER VALVE FINISHES THE MORE IMPORTANT GAMEMODES
140
#140
0 Frags +
MertHonestly Dane's comments are cringier, at least stabby has a form of higher skill comp experience, albeit mainly HL. Dane plays what like silver highlander and constantly shittalks on the 'stale' 6s meta.

He plays gold and can I get a link on where he shittalks 6s? Not defending or anything just curious.

[quote=Mert]Honestly Dane's comments are cringier, at least stabby has a form of higher skill comp experience, albeit mainly HL. Dane plays what like silver highlander and constantly shittalks on the 'stale' 6s meta.[/quote]

He plays gold and can I get a link on where he shittalks 6s? Not defending or anything just curious.
141
#141
51 Frags +

https://i.gyazo.com/652353a06608a28caf4867954f3d8656.png

guy with no experience and hardly any matches watched has a better reasoned opinion than our favourite CEVO player stabby

smh

[img]https://i.gyazo.com/652353a06608a28caf4867954f3d8656.png[/img]guy with no experience and hardly any matches watched has a better reasoned opinion than our favourite CEVO player stabby

smh
142
#142
1 Frags +
Wholegrainggglygy, rando, and four other players ran 6 smgs/syringe guns/panic attacks in matchmaking and didnt drop a round to their competition

this is the new meta right

is there a vod of it or something I positively have to see it

[quote=Wholegrain]ggglygy, rando, and four other players ran 6 smgs/syringe guns/panic attacks in matchmaking and didnt drop a round to their competition

this is the new meta right[/quote]

is there a vod of it or something I positively have to see it
143
#143
9 Frags +
Spe0He plays gold and can I get a link on where he shittalks 6s? Not defending or anything just curious.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JE6zGuoBM8M]
This is the video in which Uncle Dane claims that hl is a better game mode for matchmaking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DZ7q3WL43Y
And this is KevinIsPwn's response video.

[quote=Spe0]He plays gold and can I get a link on where he shittalks 6s? Not defending or anything just curious.[/quote]

[url=]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JE6zGuoBM8M][/url]
This is the video in which Uncle Dane claims that hl is a better game mode for matchmaking.

[url=]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DZ7q3WL43Y[/url]
And this is KevinIsPwn's response video.
144
#144
0 Frags +
Spe0MertHonestly Dane's comments are cringier, at least stabby has a form of higher skill comp experience, albeit mainly HL. Dane plays what like silver highlander and constantly shittalks on the 'stale' 6s meta.
He plays gold and can I get a link on where he shittalks 6s? Not defending or anything just curious.

Perhaps shit talk is a bit harsh but check out his twitter feed in general. Generally appears to disregard 6s and label 6s players as toxic. (Like most people who's major experience in 6s is through tf2c)

[quote=Spe0][quote=Mert]Honestly Dane's comments are cringier, at least stabby has a form of higher skill comp experience, albeit mainly HL. Dane plays what like silver highlander and constantly shittalks on the 'stale' 6s meta.[/quote]

He plays gold and can I get a link on where he shittalks 6s? Not defending or anything just curious.[/quote]

Perhaps shit talk is a bit harsh but check out his twitter feed in general. Generally appears to disregard 6s and label 6s players as toxic. (Like most people who's major experience in 6s is through tf2c)
145
#145
13 Frags +

Putting in class limits will either make queue management impossible or make people's in game experience shitty. The stricter the limits the worse it becomes. 9v9 makes all those problems 50% worse. The queue will take ages because there won't be enough players, the skill system won't work as well, and you won't be able to play what you want more than half the time if you want to play a popular class.

Class limits might come in but they will be loose, and weapon bans will only be through some kind of strategy selection step. If it happens that itself will be a part of the MM meta.

The whole discussion is irrelevant, neither current 6v6 or HL are going to happen because they make no sense for an MM queue, and if you want to play a niche class 100% of the time then all you need to do to shut up anybody complaining is point them to the scoreboard at the end. If you're bottom of the scoreboard maybe they have a point.

Putting in class limits will either make queue management impossible or make people's in game experience shitty. The stricter the limits the worse it becomes. 9v9 makes all those problems 50% worse. The queue will take ages because there won't be enough players, the skill system won't work as well, and you won't be able to play what you want more than half the time if you want to play a popular class.

Class limits might come in but they will be loose, and weapon bans will only be through some kind of strategy selection step. If it happens that itself will be a part of the MM meta.

The whole discussion is irrelevant, neither current 6v6 or HL are going to happen because they make no sense for an MM queue, and if you want to play a niche class 100% of the time then all you need to do to shut up anybody complaining is point them to the scoreboard at the end. If you're bottom of the scoreboard maybe they have a point.
146
#146
10 Frags +

Best thread ever

Best thread ever
147
#147
-16 Frags +
SmithsonianMartythe guy already said he was in the wrong. is that really necessary?when he admits it was a bad idea to his 4.6k followers instead of acting like a victim I'll be happy

https://twitter.com/stabbyvideo/status/708988307087097856

K?

Now can you guys please stop acting like I pooped on the bible while chanting the n-word?

[quote=Smithsonian][quote=Marty]the guy already said he was in the wrong. is that really necessary?[/quote]
when he admits it was a bad idea to his 4.6k followers instead of acting like a victim I'll be happy[/quote]
https://twitter.com/stabbyvideo/status/708988307087097856

K?

Now can you guys please stop acting like I pooped on the bible while chanting the n-word?
148
#148
5 Frags +

Jon has it right. From my little experience playing MM games you do eventually want a somewhat balanced class composition to win, even with no class limits. The fact that comp players can stack a team of 6 gunslinger engies and win against random people doesn't mean gunslinger engies are OP, in the same way that friend stacks can run 6 meis in overwatch and win in random MM queues but mei is arguably the worst character in actual comp (at least before that buff).

If anything having no restrictions should highlight some problems with class balance that Valve can then look at. Maybe in the future something like classlimit 2 all around can be introduced, but I think for now it should stay like this to gather info, and certainly not make it more complicated than classlimit 2. a) you can't have it be league 6s b) you don't want it to be league sixes, you want it to be something semi-casual and palatable to pubbers that is still fun to play. We know league 6s is the optimal way of playing 6s but the point is new players in MM who realize these things will then want to play in leagues and then you guys can welcome them and show them how much more fun it is with your rules.

Jon has it right. From my little experience playing MM games you do eventually want a somewhat balanced class composition to win, even with no class limits. The fact that comp players can stack a team of 6 gunslinger engies and win against random people doesn't mean gunslinger engies are OP, in the same way that friend stacks can run 6 meis in overwatch and win in random MM queues but mei is arguably the worst character in actual comp (at least before that buff).

If anything having no restrictions should highlight some problems with class balance that Valve can then look at. Maybe in the future something like classlimit 2 all around can be introduced, but I think for now it should stay like this to gather info, and certainly not make it more complicated than classlimit 2. a) you can't have it be league 6s b) you don't [i]want[/i] it to be league sixes, you want it to be something semi-casual and palatable to pubbers that is still fun to play. We know league 6s is the optimal way of playing 6s but the point is new players in MM who realize these things will then want to play in leagues and then you guys can welcome them and show them how much more fun it is with your rules.
149
#149
21 Frags +

Valve are still going to need to introduce class limits in order to balance classes and unlocks properly. You cannot balance the scout class around the ability to run anywhere between 0 and 6. Same applies to every class. If you nerf the class itself (because having a large amount of them is overpowered), then you will only serve to cripple the class when they are run in smaller numbers.

Bloodsire recently wrote a great article about this concept in Overwatch, which is currently going through similar teething problems. The players are calling for class limits, because there is no happy medium between individual heroes being powerful and multiple instances of those heroes not being overpowered.

In 6v6 with no class limits, hypothetically running a large number of demomen is the easiest case to consider imo. Say you have vast swathes of stickies at choke points, and every entrance to a point is very difficult to push through. If you're set on having no class limits the only balance option is to nerf the stickies, or nerf the class, to make this strategy less dominant. Then when you aren't defending, and want to push, the newly nerfed demoman is now poop-tier. You've stopped him being as useful on defense, but what you've actually done is completely nerf his general abilities.

By enforcing class limits of 2 (or even some classes on 1 like medic) you create a nice balance between being able to balance the classes and compositions, and having a lot of variability as well.

Valve are still going to need to introduce class limits in order to balance classes and unlocks properly. You cannot balance the scout class around the ability to run anywhere between 0 and 6. Same applies to every class. If you nerf the class itself (because having a large amount of them is overpowered), then you will only serve to cripple the class when they are run in smaller numbers.

Bloodsire recently wrote a great article about this concept in Overwatch, which is currently going through similar teething problems. The players are calling for class limits, because there is no happy medium between individual heroes being powerful and multiple instances of those heroes not being overpowered.

In 6v6 with no class limits, hypothetically running a large number of demomen is the easiest case to consider imo. Say you have vast swathes of stickies at choke points, and every entrance to a point is very difficult to push through. If you're set on having no class limits the only balance option is to nerf the stickies, or nerf the class, to make this strategy less dominant. Then when you aren't defending, and want to push, the newly nerfed demoman is now poop-tier. You've stopped him being as useful on defense, but what you've actually done is completely nerf his general abilities.

By enforcing class limits of 2 (or even some classes on 1 like medic) you create a nice balance between being able to balance the classes and compositions, and having a lot of variability as well.
150
#150
20 Frags +
stabbyhttps://twitter.com/stabbyvideo/status/708988307087097856

K?

Now can you guys please stop acting like I pooped on the bible while chanting the n-word?

https://i.gyazo.com/6323d2a9b3b3b903af81e660732085d2.png

[quote=stabby]
https://twitter.com/stabbyvideo/status/708988307087097856

K?

Now can you guys please stop acting like I pooped on the bible while chanting the n-word?[/quote]
[img]https://i.gyazo.com/6323d2a9b3b3b903af81e660732085d2.png[/img]
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