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Stabby talks class balance
181
#181
-7 Frags +
GentlemanJonGetawhaleThis one is a losing battle, I'm afraid. Once enough people on the internet misuse a word, it becomes correct.The term metagame has been around for decades

Meanwhile Stark championing the viability of 6s Spy in real time

The standard 6v6 class composition has no connection to the word "meta" or "meta-game" but yet people insist on using it. It is overused and much of the time, it's incorrect. We're off-message in this thread now though. Believe me, I'm not clueless to the word and its meaning.

[quote=GentlemanJon][quote=Getawhale]This one is a losing battle, I'm afraid. Once enough people on the internet misuse a word, it becomes correct.[/quote]
The term metagame has been around for decades

Meanwhile Stark championing the viability of 6s Spy in real time[/quote]

The standard 6v6 class composition has no connection to the word "meta" or "meta-game" but yet people insist on using it. It is overused and much of the time, it's incorrect. We're off-message in this thread now though. Believe me, I'm not clueless to the word and its meaning.
182
#182
3 Frags +

But you are, because you're saying that a word is being misused most of the time it's used, which is always wrong, in regards to any word in any context.

Also the usage in tf2 completely agrees with the usage anywhere else, "metagame" refers to strategies and counterstrategies and ways the game is played that are dictated by rules that stem from experience in high level play as opposed to the actual rules of the game. It literally means "the game behind the game".

But you are, because you're saying that a word is being misused most of the time it's used, which is always wrong, in regards to any word in any context.

Also the usage in tf2 completely agrees with the usage anywhere else, "metagame" refers to strategies and counterstrategies and ways the game is played that are dictated by rules that stem from experience in high level play as opposed to the actual rules of the game. It literally means "the game behind the game".
183
#183
7 Frags +
GetawhaleThe standard 6v6 class composition has no connection to the word "meta" or "meta-game" but yet people insist on using it. It is overused and much of the time, it's incorrect. We're off-message in this thread now though. Believe me, I'm not clueless to the word and its meaning.

I'm not suggesting you are clueless, but in my experience alone I've been hearing it for 25 years around gaming in this exact context. It may be a sub culture but that's easily enough time for it to be valid terminology by any standard.

Edit: I know what you mean, that things like achievements and other aspects of gamification are also metagame, but this isn't new, and it probably pre-dates the internet too, or at least the widespread public use of it.

[quote=Getawhale]The standard 6v6 class composition has no connection to the word "meta" or "meta-game" but yet people insist on using it. It is overused and much of the time, it's incorrect. We're off-message in this thread now though. Believe me, I'm not clueless to the word and its meaning.[/quote]
I'm not suggesting you are clueless, but in my experience alone I've been hearing it for 25 years around gaming in this exact context. It may be a sub culture but that's easily enough time for it to be valid terminology by any standard.

Edit: I know what you mean, that things like achievements and other aspects of gamification are also metagame, but this isn't new, and it probably pre-dates the internet too, or at least the widespread public use of it.
184
#184
20 Frags +

Honestly Stabby, this thread has vilified you for one miss-informed tweet but it's understandable considering you have the power to influence lots of people. The same situation occurred when Funke made a satirical video about the phlog saying "I think TF2 may actually be dead" He meant it as a joke, and most of us knew that, but if just 1% of the 200,000 views that video got, took that video's message wrongly, that's 2,000 people who are just re-enforcing a bullshit stereotype that if anything, is hampering TF2's progress.
This is happening more frequently with people who have social influence within TF2, Uncle Dane knocking 6s players, accusing them of having a "natural cockiness" and being stubborn towards change is another example. Just please be careful before you post something

Honestly Stabby, this thread has vilified you for one miss-informed tweet but it's understandable considering you have the power to influence lots of people. The same situation occurred when Funke made a satirical video about the phlog saying "I think TF2 may actually be dead" He meant it as a joke, and most of us knew that, but if just 1% of the 200,000 views that video got, took that video's message wrongly, that's 2,000 people who are just re-enforcing a bullshit stereotype that if anything, is hampering TF2's progress.
This is happening more frequently with people who have social influence within TF2, Uncle Dane knocking 6s players, accusing them of having a "natural cockiness" and being stubborn towards change is another example. Just please be careful before you post something
185
#185
5 Frags +
GentlemanJonGetawhaleThe standard 6v6 class composition has no connection to the word "meta" or "meta-game" but yet people insist on using it. It is overused and much of the time, it's incorrect. We're off-message in this thread now though. Believe me, I'm not clueless to the word and its meaning.I'm not suggesting you are clueless, but in my experience alone I've been hearing it for 25 years around gaming in this exact context. It may be a sub culture but that's easily enough time for it to be valid terminology by any standard.

Edit: I know what you mean, that things like achievements and other aspects of gamification are also metagame, but this isn't new, and it probably pre-dates the internet too, or at least the widespread public use of it.

It is used correctly -sometimes- in regards to TF2. It is incorrectly used more often than not--most people seem to think that it simply means, "the generally accepted standard" such as, "the sixes meta is 2 scouts, 2 soldiers, 1 demo, 1 medic."

That is not what it means. Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing with any of you three (GentlemanJon/spartan/getawhale). It's just one word in a long list of words that are so frequently misused that they become somewhat accepted, like 'literally' and 'hacker' or 'hacking'.

[quote=GentlemanJon][quote=Getawhale]The standard 6v6 class composition has no connection to the word "meta" or "meta-game" but yet people insist on using it. It is overused and much of the time, it's incorrect. We're off-message in this thread now though. Believe me, I'm not clueless to the word and its meaning.
[/quote]
I'm not suggesting you are clueless, but in my experience alone I've been hearing it for 25 years around gaming in this exact context. It may be a sub culture but that's easily enough time for it to be valid terminology by any standard.

Edit: I know what you mean, that things like achievements and other aspects of gamification are also metagame, but this isn't new, and it probably pre-dates the internet too, or at least the widespread public use of it.[/quote]

It is used correctly -sometimes- in regards to TF2. It is incorrectly used more often than not--most people seem to think that it simply means, "the generally accepted standard" such as, "the sixes meta is 2 scouts, 2 soldiers, 1 demo, 1 medic."

That is not what it means. Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing with any of you three (GentlemanJon/spartan/getawhale). It's just one word in a long list of words that are so frequently misused that they become somewhat accepted, like 'literally' and 'hacker' or 'hacking'.
186
#186
-13 Frags +

It's not possible for a word to be misused most of the time. Language doesn't work that way.

It's not possible for a word to be misused most of the time. Language doesn't work that way.
187
#187
17 Frags +
the301stspartanIt's not possible for a word to be misused most of the time. Language doesn't work that way.

A small gaming community could misuse the word most of the time, without the total population of the world misusing it most of the time. Your point assumes that the gaming community is then imprinting its definition on the wider world.

[quote=the301stspartan]It's not possible for a word to be misused most of the time. Language doesn't work that way.[/quote]

A small gaming community could misuse the word most of the time, without the total population of the world misusing it most of the time. Your point assumes that the gaming community is then imprinting its definition on the wider world.
188
#188
6 Frags +

Well, first off, you're absolutely incorrect. Words can very well be misused most of the time. Language can and does work that way. That's why there are correct usages and incorrect usages. Sure, languages eventually evolve to accept common misuses, but until it does, they are indeed incorrect. Secondly, I explicitly stated "in regards to TF2" as opposed to "in every instance of use throughout the language".

This is just a silly argument as nobody will ever change sides, but hey, it's fun, right? :P

Well, first off, you're absolutely incorrect. Words can very well be misused most of the time. Language can and does work that way. That's why there are correct usages and incorrect usages. Sure, languages eventually evolve to accept common misuses, but until it does, they are indeed incorrect. Secondly, I explicitly stated "in regards to TF2" as opposed to "in every instance of use throughout the language".

This is just a silly argument as nobody will ever change sides, but hey, it's fun, right? :P
189
#189
1 Frags +
smakersIt is incorrectly used more often than not--most people seem to think that it simply means, "the generally accepted standard" such as, "the sixes meta is 2 scouts, 2 soldiers, 1 demo, 1 medic."

I take the point, but if it's used in a disparaging context (usually the case I think) then the simplification is a case of derogatory hyperbole rather than a lack of understanding, or more likely a combination of both

[quote=smakers]It is incorrectly used more often than not--most people seem to think that it simply means, "the generally accepted standard" such as, "the sixes meta is 2 scouts, 2 soldiers, 1 demo, 1 medic."[/quote]
I take the point, but if it's used in a disparaging context (usually the case I think) then the simplification is a case of derogatory hyperbole rather than a lack of understanding, or more likely a combination of both
190
#190
-3 Frags +
Sure, languages eventually evolve to accept common misuses, but until it does, they are indeed incorrect.

But this happens long before a majority of everyone using the word use it "incorrectly".

A small gaming community could misuse the word most of the time, without the total population of the world misusing it most of the time. Your point assumes that the gaming community is then imprinting its definition on the wider world.

No that's not what I'm trying to say, I was only replying to

It's just one word in a long list of words that are so frequently misused that they become somewhat accepted, like 'literally' and 'hacker' or 'hacking'.

which implies that a word can be "misused" so much it becomes accepted but still be incorrect despite being accepted.

In terms of tf2 only, I don't actually see how the word is being misused/ used differently than in any other esports, personally, I haven't seen anyone use it any differently in regards to tf2..?

[quote]Sure, languages eventually evolve to accept common misuses, but until it does, they are indeed incorrect.[/quote]
But this happens long before a majority of everyone using the word use it "incorrectly".

[quote]A small gaming community could misuse the word most of the time, without the total population of the world misusing it most of the time. Your point assumes that the gaming community is then imprinting its definition on the wider world.[/quote]

No that's not what I'm trying to say, I was only replying to [quote]It's just one word in a long list of words that are so frequently misused that they become somewhat accepted, like 'literally' and 'hacker' or 'hacking'.[/quote] which implies that a word can be "misused" so much it becomes accepted but still be incorrect despite being accepted.

In terms of tf2 only, I don't actually see how the word is being misused/ used differently than in any other esports, personally, I haven't seen anyone use it any differently in regards to tf2..?
191
#191
4 Frags +
GentlemanJonsmakersIt is incorrectly used more often than not--most people seem to think that it simply means, "the generally accepted standard" such as, "the sixes meta is 2 scouts, 2 soldiers, 1 demo, 1 medic."I take the point, but if it's used in a disparaging context (usually the case I think) then the simplification is a case of derogatory hyperbole rather than a lack of understanding, or more likely a combination of both

Hah, you could be completely correct, though I honestly think it's that the average person even in the TF2 community parrots the phrase without having any comprehension of what it actually means. When I think of metagaming, chess and military war games immediately come to mind. In TF2, I think of a last hold and subsequent last push, which, oddly enough, is essentially the opposite of what people are talking about when they use the term "meta" [referring to standard situations].

[quote=GentlemanJon][quote=smakers]It is incorrectly used more often than not--most people seem to think that it simply means, "the generally accepted standard" such as, "the sixes meta is 2 scouts, 2 soldiers, 1 demo, 1 medic."[/quote]
I take the point, but if it's used in a disparaging context (usually the case I think) then the simplification is a case of derogatory hyperbole rather than a lack of understanding, or more likely a combination of both[/quote]

Hah, you could be completely correct, though I honestly think it's that the average person even in the TF2 community parrots the phrase without having any comprehension of what it actually means. When I think of metagaming, chess and military war games immediately come to mind. In TF2, I think of a last hold and subsequent last push, which, oddly enough, is essentially the opposite of what people are talking about when they use the term "meta" [referring to standard situations].
192
#192
2 Frags +
SideshowA small gaming community could misuse the word most of the time, without the total population of the world misusing it most of the time. Your point assumes that the gaming community is then imprinting its definition on the wider world.

What normally happens is you end up with an extra definition for the new meaning. The word "literally" has been misused so much that the common misuse has now become an officially recognised acceptable meaning in many dictionaries.

You probably won't even find metagame in most dictionaries. Pretty much nobody in the wider world talks about metagames at all. It's just gamer nerds and academics, although they both mean different things when they use it.

[quote=Sideshow]A small gaming community could misuse the word most of the time, without the total population of the world misusing it most of the time. Your point assumes that the gaming community is then imprinting its definition on the wider world.[/quote]
What normally happens is you end up with an extra definition for the new meaning. The word "literally" has been misused so much that the common misuse has now become an officially recognised acceptable meaning in many dictionaries.

You probably won't even find metagame in most dictionaries. Pretty much nobody in the wider world talks about metagames at all. It's just gamer nerds and academics, although they both mean different things when they use it.
193
#193
6 Frags +
PereeHonestly Stabby, this thread has vilified you for one miss-informed tweet but it's understandable considering you have the power to influence lots of people. The same situation occurred when Funke made a satirical video about the phlog saying "I think TF2 may actually be dead" He meant it as a joke, and most of us knew that, but if just 1% of the 200,000 views that video got, took that video's message wrongly, that's 2,000 people who are just re-enforcing a bullshit stereotype that if anything, is hampering TF2's progress.
This is happening more frequently with people who have social influence within TF2, Uncle Dane knocking 6s players, accusing them of having a "natural cockiness" and being stubborn towards change is another example. Just please be careful before you post something

Well said. I dunno though, I'm not sure I really want to be "careful" with expressing my thoughts. I like to speak candidly when chatting about video games.

I do wish I'd worded the tweet better...it is kind of neat to get to share your thoughts with a gaggle of people, I might as well put a bit more care into my wording etc if they're going to be listened to by the community (occasionally).

Anyway, thanks for the quality post.

[quote=Peree]Honestly Stabby, this thread has vilified you for one miss-informed tweet but it's understandable considering you have the power to influence lots of people. The same situation occurred when Funke made a satirical video about the phlog saying "I think TF2 may actually be dead" He meant it as a joke, and most of us knew that, but if just 1% of the 200,000 views that video got, took that video's message wrongly, that's 2,000 people who are just re-enforcing a bullshit stereotype that if anything, is hampering TF2's progress.
This is happening more frequently with people who have social influence within TF2, Uncle Dane knocking 6s players, accusing them of having a "natural cockiness" and being stubborn towards change is another example. Just please be careful before you post something[/quote]
Well said. I dunno though, I'm not sure I really want to be "careful" with expressing my thoughts. I like to speak candidly when chatting about video games.

I do wish I'd worded the tweet better...it is kind of neat to get to share your thoughts with a gaggle of people, I might as well put a bit more care into my wording etc if they're going to be listened to by the community (occasionally).

Anyway, thanks for the quality post.
194
#194
0 Frags +
smakersHah, you could be completely correct, though I honestly think it's that the average person even in the TF2 community parrots the phrase without having any comprehension of what it actually means. When I think of metagaming, chess and military war games immediately come to mind. In TF2, I think of a last hold and subsequent last push, which, oddly enough, is essentially the opposite of what people are talking about when they use the term "meta" [referring to standard situations].

The terrifying thing is that it's Reddit's world, we're just living in it

[quote=smakers]Hah, you could be completely correct, though I honestly think it's that the average person even in the TF2 community parrots the phrase without having any comprehension of what it actually means. When I think of metagaming, chess and military war games immediately come to mind. In TF2, I think of a last hold and subsequent last push, which, oddly enough, is essentially the opposite of what people are talking about when they use the term "meta" [referring to standard situations].[/quote]
The terrifying thing is that it's Reddit's world, we're just living in it
195
#195
9 Frags +

I have always thought "meta" to be "most effective tactic available"

I have always thought "meta" to be "most effective tactic available"
196
#196
9 Frags +

.

.
197
#197
10 Frags +

tf.tv language discussion and spy mains

tf.tv language discussion and spy mains
198
#198
18 Frags +

We're talking about stabby's comments about 6s and you guys are arguing about language for 1-2 pages. Like, really?

We're talking about stabby's comments about 6s and you guys are arguing about language for 1-2 pages. Like, really?
199
#199
24 Frags +
yukiWe're talking about stabby's comments about 6s and you guys are arguing about language for 1-2 pages. Like, really?

Can you believe anyone gave a shit about stabby's comments about 6s?

[quote=yuki]We're talking about stabby's comments about 6s and you guys are arguing about language for 1-2 pages. Like, really?[/quote]
Can you believe anyone gave a shit about stabby's comments about 6s?
200
#200
-8 Frags +

why does this thread have 200 replies?

why does this thread have 200 replies?
201
#201
55 Frags +

it woulda had 199 if u didnt ask

it woulda had 199 if u didnt ask
202
#202
-3 Frags +

memeclass

memeclass
203
#203
-7 Frags +

Woah, is that Getawhale?

Woah, is that Getawhale?
204
#204
-13 Frags +
GentlemanJonyukiWe're talking about stabby's comments about 6s and you guys are arguing about language for 1-2 pages. Like, really?Can you believe anyone gave a shit about stabby's comments about 6s?
[quote=GentlemanJon][quote=yuki]We're talking about stabby's comments about 6s and you guys are arguing about language for 1-2 pages. Like, really?[/quote]
Can you believe anyone gave a shit about stabby's comments about 6s?[/quote]
205
#205
0 Frags +

Wow stabby got roasted by sheepy. That will leave a mark.

Wow stabby got roasted by sheepy. That will leave a mark.
206
#206
0 Frags +
smakers language".

Better put that there period inside them quotations though AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH bars

[quote=smakers] language".

[/quote]

Better put that there period inside them quotations though AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH bars
207
#207
3 Frags +

Can I just take a second to mention a few things?

1. Stabby called the 6s meta "stale", but seems to have completely forgotten to address any post that says (correctly) that highlander is just as stale with its constant 1 of each class set-up that allows for no change at all?

2. Stabby is talking about the 6s meta like it's not fun and nobody who plays pubs will like it, yet all my experience during the stress tests with people who haven't played or heard of competitive TF2 before all just HAPPEN to fall into the "cookie cutter line up" without being told too? (Seriously, I see people just DO it. I get surprised every time I joined a lobby and saw every class in the 6s meta already chosen besides the one left out for me.)

3. People used CS as an example, and again, Stabby just ignored it and didn't even address it. CS has had the same meta for... What? 15 years? Something like that? From the highest levels of MM to the lowest in CSGO, you'll still find mostly 4 AK/M4 and an AWP, when you could choose any other weapon. What's the difference in TF2?

Basically, just let people play like they wanna play, quit trying to mold MM into what you want it to be, because we all know that MM isn't going to be the embodiment of whatever you do or not want it to be. If you wanna have a class limit of 1 for everything, play highlander, otherwise, just let people play how they wanna play.

And Stabby. Please don't use CEVO as an excuse to justify you running spy. All my experiences and all of what I've heard about CEVO was that it was a borderline joke, so using it as a way to justify what you've done while being carried by 3 invite level players isn't exactly helping your cause.

Can I just take a second to mention a few things?

1. Stabby called the 6s meta "stale", but seems to have completely forgotten to address any post that says (correctly) that highlander is just as stale with its constant 1 of each class set-up that allows for no change at all?

2. Stabby is talking about the 6s meta like it's not fun and nobody who plays pubs will like it, yet all my experience during the stress tests with people who haven't played or heard of competitive TF2 before all just HAPPEN to fall into the "cookie cutter line up" without being told too? (Seriously, I see people just DO it. I get surprised every time I joined a lobby and saw every class in the 6s meta already chosen besides the one left out for me.)

3. People used CS as an example, and again, Stabby just ignored it and didn't even address it. CS has had the same meta for... What? 15 years? Something like that? From the highest levels of MM to the lowest in CSGO, you'll still find mostly 4 AK/M4 and an AWP, when you could choose any other weapon. What's the difference in TF2?

Basically, just let people play like they wanna play, quit trying to mold MM into what you want it to be, because we all know that MM isn't going to be the embodiment of whatever you do or not want it to be. If you wanna have a class limit of 1 for everything, play highlander, otherwise, just let people play how they wanna play.

And Stabby. Please don't use CEVO as an excuse to justify you running spy. All my experiences and all of what I've heard about CEVO was that it was a borderline joke, so using it as a way to justify what you've done while being carried by 3 invite level players isn't exactly helping your cause.
208
#208
21 Frags +
LulzyCan I just take a second to mention a few things?

1. Stabby called the 6s meta "stale", but seems to have completely forgotten to address any post that says (correctly) that highlander is just as stale with its constant 1 of each class set-up that allows for no change at all?

2. Stabby is talking about the 6s meta like it's not fun and nobody who plays pubs will like it, yet all my experience during the stress tests with people who haven't played or heard of competitive TF2 before all just HAPPEN to fall into the "cookie cutter line up" without being told too? (Seriously, I see people just DO it. I get surprised every time I joined a lobby and saw every class in the 6s meta already chosen besides the one left out for me.)

3. People used CS as an example, and again, Stabby just ignored it and didn't even address it. CS has had the same meta for... What? 15 years? Something like that? From the highest levels of MM to the lowest in CSGO, you'll still find mostly 4 AK/M4 and an AWP, when you could choose any other weapon. What's the difference in TF2?

Basically, just let people play like they wanna play, quit trying to mold MM into what you want it to be, because we all know that MM isn't going to be the embodiment of whatever you do or not want it to be. If you wanna have a class limit of 1 for everything, play highlander, otherwise, just let people play how they wanna play.

And Stabby. Please don't use CEVO as an excuse to justify you running spy. All my experiences and all of what I've heard about CEVO was that it was a borderline joke, so using it as a way to justify what you've done while being carried by 3 invite level players isn't exactly helping your cause.

http://awesomegifs.com/wp-content/uploads/dead-horse.gif

[quote=Lulzy]Can I just take a second to mention a few things?

1. Stabby called the 6s meta "stale", but seems to have completely forgotten to address any post that says (correctly) that highlander is just as stale with its constant 1 of each class set-up that allows for no change at all?

2. Stabby is talking about the 6s meta like it's not fun and nobody who plays pubs will like it, yet all my experience during the stress tests with people who haven't played or heard of competitive TF2 before all just HAPPEN to fall into the "cookie cutter line up" without being told too? (Seriously, I see people just DO it. I get surprised every time I joined a lobby and saw every class in the 6s meta already chosen besides the one left out for me.)

3. People used CS as an example, and again, Stabby just ignored it and didn't even address it. CS has had the same meta for... What? 15 years? Something like that? From the highest levels of MM to the lowest in CSGO, you'll still find mostly 4 AK/M4 and an AWP, when you could choose any other weapon. What's the difference in TF2?

Basically, just let people play like they wanna play, quit trying to mold MM into what you want it to be, because we all know that MM isn't going to be the embodiment of whatever you do or not want it to be. If you wanna have a class limit of 1 for everything, play highlander, otherwise, just let people play how they wanna play.

And Stabby. Please don't use CEVO as an excuse to justify you running spy. All my experiences and all of what I've heard about CEVO was that it was a borderline joke, so using it as a way to justify what you've done while being carried by 3 invite level players isn't exactly helping your cause.[/quote]

[img]http://awesomegifs.com/wp-content/uploads/dead-horse.gif[/img]
209
#209
11 Frags +

1. why are people still posting look at his class hours

1. why are people still posting look at his class hours
210
#210
0 Frags +

the irony of this is that had this thread not blown up, less people would've seen what stabby even said and less people would've become exposed to bad ideas (the very thing this thread was trying to prevent i guess.)

the irony of this is that had this thread not blown up, less people would've seen what stabby even said and less people would've become exposed to bad ideas (the very thing this thread was trying to prevent i guess.)
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