The reason I write this is because i am tired of people saying that they have to be careful agains explosives when using the DDS
The DDS is one of the items that does not make any sence. The reason for this is that the 20% more explosive damage taken is not a big enough downside. if you take one pill from a demoman without the DDS at full hp, you will end up with 25 hp. However if you take a pill from a demoman with the DDS at full hp, you will end up with 30 hp. It effectivly gives you more survivability against explosives. If you get hit by a direct hit rocket that would deal 125 damage to a SMG sniper, it would also kill a DDS sniper in one shot. Another fun thing about the DDS is that ambassador headshots deal less damage at close range compared to long range shots. The reason for this is that the DDS blocks 15% of the damage from a bodyshot at the same range. And because of this the blocked portion is higher at close range.
Back in the days when this mechanic was a part of the polycount set it was ok because you made a trade. The enemies can't headshot you, however you can't them. This was a fair trade. Now however we all know that a sniper 1vs1 is not decided by who clicks first. It is now decided by who has the low enough moral standards to use the DDS and think it survive with 7 hp then shoot when the other sniper is reloading.
The only trade you make is more survivability agains anything and when a medic fully buffs a DDS sniper it ends up with 225 HP instead of 180 compared to not being able to use jarate or SMG. For most of the snipers in pubs the DDS is clearly a better option unless you like to play relativly offensive as sniper.
Some of the changes to add would be +50% or +60% explosive damage taken. This would lead to you being killed in one shot agains demoman pills and soldier rockets. The option between 50% and 60% comes down to the range a rocket should kill you. This should probably be decided through playtesting.
Another solution that could be added is changing the DDS to what it used to be in the polycont days, people still used it when it had these stats. Then give the "can't get killed by headshots" effect to the Sidney sleeper. Valve has tried to buff the Sidney sleeper a couple of times, and still there are few and far between in pubs. I think this change could make it see more use if that is Valve's goal.
TLDR: The DDS gives you more survivablilty against bullets, fire, all standart meele weapons (- the spy knife, still 4 facestabs to kill), and explosives (read above for more info). Change the DDS to +50% damage taken or give the no headshots mechanic to the Sidney sleeper.
The reason I write this is because i am tired of people saying that they have to be careful agains explosives when using the DDS
The DDS is one of the items that does not make any sence. The reason for this is that the 20% more explosive damage taken is not a big enough downside. if you take one pill from a demoman without the DDS at full hp, you will end up with 25 hp. However if you take a pill from a demoman with the DDS at full hp, you will end up with 30 hp. It effectivly gives you more survivability against explosives. If you get hit by a direct hit rocket that would deal 125 damage to a SMG sniper, it would also kill a DDS sniper in one shot. Another fun thing about the DDS is that ambassador headshots deal less damage at close range compared to long range shots. The reason for this is that the DDS blocks 15% of the damage from a bodyshot at the same range. And because of this the blocked portion is higher at close range.
Back in the days when this mechanic was a part of the polycount set it was ok because you made a trade. The enemies can't headshot you, however you can't them. This was a fair trade. Now however we all know that a sniper 1vs1 is not decided by who clicks first. It is now decided by who has the low enough moral standards to use the DDS and think it survive with 7 hp then shoot when the other sniper is reloading.
The only trade you make is more survivability agains anything and when a medic fully buffs a DDS sniper it ends up with 225 HP instead of 180 compared to not being able to use jarate or SMG. For most of the snipers in pubs the DDS is clearly a better option unless you like to play relativly offensive as sniper.
Some of the changes to add would be +50% or +60% explosive damage taken. This would lead to you being killed in one shot agains demoman pills and soldier rockets. The option between 50% and 60% comes down to the range a rocket should kill you. This should probably be decided through playtesting.
Another solution that could be added is changing the DDS to what it used to be in the polycont days, people still used it when it had these stats. Then give the "can't get killed by headshots" effect to the Sidney sleeper. Valve has tried to buff the Sidney sleeper a couple of times, and still there are few and far between in pubs. I think this change could make it see more use if that is Valve's goal.
TLDR: The DDS gives you more survivablilty against bullets, fire, all standart meele weapons (- the spy knife, still 4 facestabs to kill), and explosives (read above for more info). Change the DDS to +50% damage taken or give the no headshots mechanic to the Sidney sleeper.
The Darwins is pretty flawed in retrospect yes, but overall its still beat out in usefulness by the cozy camper and the razorback
The Darwins is pretty flawed in retrospect yes, but overall its still beat out in usefulness by the cozy camper and the razorback
89zombiezThe Darwins is pretty flawed in retrospect yes, but overall its still beat out in usefulness by the cozy camper and the razorback
the only reason every single sniper doesn't run darwin's full time is that it is banned.
[quote=89zombiez]The Darwins is pretty flawed in retrospect yes, but overall its still beat out in usefulness by the cozy camper and the razorback[/quote]
the only reason every single sniper doesn't run darwin's full time is that it is banned.
darwin's is fucking completely bullshit and it guarantees that every other sniper is forced to run DDS as well. it's not an upgrade, it's just a necessity, because why the fuck would you NOT use it
darwin's is fucking completely bullshit and it guarantees that every other sniper is forced to run DDS as well. it's not an upgrade, it's just a necessity, because why the fuck would you NOT use it
Air_89zombiezThe Darwins is pretty flawed in retrospect yes, but overall its still beat out in usefulness by the cozy camper and the razorback
the only reason every single sniper doesn't run darwin's full time is that it is banned.
It won't be in MM. EVERY (somewhat intelligent) sniper will run it in MM.
[quote=Air_][quote=89zombiez]The Darwins is pretty flawed in retrospect yes, but overall its still beat out in usefulness by the cozy camper and the razorback[/quote]
the only reason every single sniper doesn't run darwin's full time is that it is banned.[/quote]
It won't be in MM. EVERY (somewhat intelligent) sniper will run it in MM.
instead of writing an essay and suggesting something additionally retarded, you could have said: Darwan danger shield is lame, revert the whole not being able to be headshot and just leave it at +25 hp how it used to be until they reworked the whole retarded set bonus thingy. why not give the sydney sleeper the ability to not get headshot if you are fully charged in scope XD
instead of writing an essay and suggesting something additionally retarded, you could have said: Darwan danger shield is lame, revert the whole not being able to be headshot and just leave it at +25 hp how it used to be until they reworked the whole retarded set bonus thingy. why not give the sydney sleeper the ability to not get headshot if you are fully charged in scope XD
DamnEasyjanga7It won't be in MM.
How do you know?
God dammit use context
[quote=DamnEasy][quote=janga7]
It won't be in MM. [/quote]
How do you know?[/quote]
God dammit use context
Back when it first came out, I enjoyed just having the +25 HP just so I can snipe a bit longer before dying. It did suck going against snipers with DDS and had medic buffs but that was the only annoying part. I'd say it was decently fair/balanced at the time as for when you fight at mid-close range you won't have an SMG to defend yourself with, thus relying on your headshots. Even at this time, people still hated it and just felt annoyed how they couldn't one hit a class. For some reason, Valve somewhat further buffed it with the bullet resistance, this brought even more hate towards it as snipers could go out with this without the need of medic buffs and not get instant killed by enemy sniper headshots. I think they should just revert it back to what it originally was so it can possibly get unbanned.
Back when it first came out, I enjoyed just having the +25 HP just so I can snipe a bit longer before dying. It did suck going against snipers with DDS and had medic buffs but that was the only annoying part. I'd say it was decently fair/balanced at the time as for when you fight at mid-close range you won't have an SMG to defend yourself with, thus relying on your headshots. Even at this time, people still hated it and just felt annoyed how they couldn't one hit a class. For some reason, Valve somewhat further buffed it with the bullet resistance, this brought even more hate towards it as snipers could go out with this without the need of medic buffs and not get instant killed by enemy sniper headshots. I think they should just revert it back to what it originally was so it can possibly get unbanned.
janga7Air_89zombiezThe Darwins is pretty flawed in retrospect yes, but overall its still beat out in usefulness by the cozy camper and the razorback
the only reason every single sniper doesn't run darwin's full time is that it is banned.
It won't be in MM. EVERY (somewhat intelligent) sniper will run it in MM.
Hi, real sniper main here.
Assuming everything was unbanned for HL I'd run DDS
For 6s I'd run Cozy Camper
that is all.
-edit-
I guess I'll give an actual explanation.
HL is slower paced and your major threats as sniper are Sniper, Spy, Scout/Soldier with the sniper being the main threat making the DDS a no brainer, plus you get more health and more health from packs so even with the extra explosive damage it's not really a downgrade.
6s your main threats are a scout and soldier maybe a sniper but tbh most scenarios a scout or soldier will get you first so having health regen and steady aim makes Cozy Camper a obvious choice.
[quote=janga7][quote=Air_][quote=89zombiez]The Darwins is pretty flawed in retrospect yes, but overall its still beat out in usefulness by the cozy camper and the razorback[/quote]
the only reason every single sniper doesn't run darwin's full time is that it is banned.[/quote]
It won't be in MM. EVERY (somewhat intelligent) sniper will run it in MM.[/quote]
Hi, real sniper main here.
Assuming everything was unbanned for HL I'd run DDS
For 6s I'd run Cozy Camper
that is all.
-edit-
I guess I'll give an actual explanation.
HL is slower paced and your major threats as sniper are Sniper, Spy, Scout/Soldier with the sniper being the main threat making the DDS a no brainer, plus you get more health and more health from packs so even with the extra explosive damage it's not really a downgrade.
6s your main threats are a scout and soldier maybe a sniper but tbh most scenarios a scout or soldier will get you first so having health regen and steady aim makes Cozy Camper a obvious choice.
If everything is unbanned in MM i'm running jarate + sleeper. Remember how effective piss gun was on viaduct?
If everything is unbanned in MM i'm running jarate + sleeper. Remember how effective piss gun was on viaduct?
DanceNumberIf everything is unbanned in MM i'm running jarate + sleeper. Remember how effective piss gun was on viaduct?
It was so good because teams could focus fire. I'm doubting there's going to be a modicum of cohesion in MM and that's going to make the sleeper a lot less useful.
[quote=DanceNumber]If everything is unbanned in MM i'm running jarate + sleeper. Remember how effective piss gun was on viaduct?[/quote]
It was so good because teams could focus fire. I'm doubting there's going to be a modicum of cohesion in MM and that's going to make the sleeper a lot less useful.
Sam_HoustonDanceNumberIf everything is unbanned in MM i'm running jarate + sleeper. Remember how effective piss gun was on viaduct?
It was so good because teams could focus fire. I'm doubting there's going to be a modicum of cohesion in MM and that's going to make the sleeper a lot less useful.
Would you rather shoot a soldier with mini crits or the soldier without minicrits
It doesn't take a genius to know what jarate is
[quote=Sam_Houston][quote=DanceNumber]If everything is unbanned in MM i'm running jarate + sleeper. Remember how effective piss gun was on viaduct?[/quote]
It was so good because teams could focus fire. I'm doubting there's going to be a modicum of cohesion in MM and that's going to make the sleeper a lot less useful.[/quote]
Would you rather shoot a soldier with mini crits or the soldier without minicrits
It doesn't take a genius to know what jarate is
For the topic at hand though this is what I'd like to see a DDS do
+25HP
-80% afterburn duration maybe higher (would make afterburn last about 2s)
-50% explosive knockback
idk making it more of pyro counter/juggling counter makes it a whole lot less toxic but still useful than it currently is.
For the topic at hand though this is what I'd like to see a DDS do
+25HP
-80% afterburn duration maybe higher (would make afterburn last about 2s)
-50% explosive knockback
idk making it more of pyro counter/juggling counter makes it a whole lot less toxic but still useful than it currently is.
It is annoying as hell to quickscope another sniper only to get bodyshot a second later. It is complete BS.
It is annoying as hell to quickscope another sniper only to get bodyshot a second later. It is complete BS.
I feel like the shittyness of the dds has been fairly well covered to this point. Considering valves new focus on lump balance updates, with matchmaking in the future, I think it's safe to assume the dds will be changed next significant update.
I feel like the shittyness of the dds has been fairly well covered to this point. Considering valves new focus on lump balance updates, with matchmaking in the future, I think it's safe to assume the dds will be changed next significant update.
i remember in my first few months of tf2, back when itemset bonuses were a thing, i bought the crocodile hat from the mann co store for i think $10 so i could run the no-headshots set on 2fort :D
i remember in my first few months of tf2, back when itemset bonuses were a thing, i bought the crocodile hat from the mann co store for i think $10 so i could run the no-headshots set on 2fort :D
ComangliaFor the topic at hand though this is what I'd like to see a DDS do
+25HP
-80% afterburn duration maybe higher (would make afterburn last about 2s)
-50% explosive knockback
idk making it more of pyro counter/juggling counter makes it a whole lot less toxic but still useful than it currently is.
did you just list no downsides
[quote=Comanglia]For the topic at hand though this is what I'd like to see a DDS do
+25HP
-80% afterburn duration maybe higher (would make afterburn last about 2s)
-50% explosive knockback
idk making it more of pyro counter/juggling counter makes it a whole lot less toxic but still useful than it currently is.[/quote]
did you just list no downsides
yttriumComangliaFor the topic at hand though this is what I'd like to see a DDS do
+25HP
-80% afterburn duration maybe higher (would make afterburn last about 2s)
-50% explosive knockback
idk making it more of pyro counter/juggling counter makes it a whole lot less toxic but still useful than it currently is.
did you just list no downsides
The downside is that you don't have an SMG (or Jarate/Cozy Camper). I don't necessarily agree that what Comanglia suggested is perfect but you can definitely design a weapon that is completely balanced and doesn't necessarily have any listed out downsides.
[quote=yttrium][quote=Comanglia]For the topic at hand though this is what I'd like to see a DDS do
+25HP
-80% afterburn duration maybe higher (would make afterburn last about 2s)
-50% explosive knockback
idk making it more of pyro counter/juggling counter makes it a whole lot less toxic but still useful than it currently is.[/quote]
did you just list no downsides[/quote]
The downside is that you don't have an SMG (or Jarate/Cozy Camper). I don't necessarily agree that what Comanglia suggested is perfect but you can definitely design a weapon that is completely balanced and doesn't necessarily have any listed out downsides.
yttriumComangliaFor the topic at hand though this is what I'd like to see a DDS do
+25HP
-80% afterburn duration maybe higher (would make afterburn last about 2s)
-50% explosive knockback
idk making it more of pyro counter/juggling counter makes it a whole lot less toxic but still useful than it currently is.
did you just list no downsides
Name the downsides of the Cozy Camper, Razorback, and Jarate. Other than you don't have an SMG there really isn't any.
[quote=yttrium][quote=Comanglia]For the topic at hand though this is what I'd like to see a DDS do
+25HP
-80% afterburn duration maybe higher (would make afterburn last about 2s)
-50% explosive knockback
idk making it more of pyro counter/juggling counter makes it a whole lot less toxic but still useful than it currently is.[/quote]
did you just list no downsides[/quote]
Name the downsides of the Cozy Camper, Razorback, and Jarate. Other than you don't have an SMG there really isn't any.
ComangliaName the downsides of the Cozy Camper, Razorback, and Jarate. Other than you don't have an SMG there really isn't any.
oh yeah I forgot they buffed the camper
do we need to buff the shooty smig?
[quote=Comanglia]
Name the downsides of the Cozy Camper, Razorback, and Jarate. Other than you don't have an SMG there really isn't any.[/quote]
oh yeah I forgot they buffed the camper
do we need to buff the shooty smig?
http://s11.postimg.org/qyal24tdv/image.png
lookit friend spamoman. valve made darwin danger shield a cup protector
it null the core mechanic of sniper to headshot so u strap onto dick to protect when outsniped
then u get pocket medic and taunt on 2fort
[img]http://s11.postimg.org/qyal24tdv/image.png[/img]
lookit friend spamoman. valve made darwin danger shield a cup protector
it null the core mechanic of sniper to headshot so u strap onto dick to protect when outsniped
then u get pocket medic and taunt on 2fort
the thing about snipers secondaries at the moment is they all remove one of the ways to counter him with basically no downside. this could be fixed by making him immune to one of his counters but far more vulnerable to the other two.
for example in some way:
razorback should counter spies, but make him more affexted by snipers and spam aimpunch
darwins danger shield should counter snipers but make him more affected by spies and spam aimpunch
camper counters aimpunch but makes him vulnerable to spies and snipers
probably wouldnt entirely fix everything but a good start and much better than the no downsides they have now
the thing about snipers secondaries at the moment is they all remove one of the ways to counter him with basically no downside. this could be fixed by making him immune to one of his counters but far more vulnerable to the other two.
for example in some way:
razorback should counter spies, but make him more affexted by snipers and spam aimpunch
darwins danger shield should counter snipers but make him more affected by spies and spam aimpunch
camper counters aimpunch but makes him vulnerable to spies and snipers
probably wouldnt entirely fix everything but a good start and much better than the no downsides they have now
There were people who used the danger shield in 6s when it was just +25 health. That is already a very good upside when you can get buffed to 225 and be really hard to kill by anything but a charged headshot or backstab.
If you really want to capture the "spirit" of the old croc-o-style set, might as well just add the bullet resistance stat to the sydney sleeper - it makes you a little less useless if the enemy team has a sniper, but a competent enemy sniper is still able to kill you because he can quickscope + noscope/bodyshot you, while you have to gamble on a full charge bodyshot.
There were people who used the danger shield in 6s when it was just +25 health. That is already a very good upside when you can get buffed to 225 and be really hard to kill by anything but a charged headshot or backstab.
If you really want to capture the "spirit" of the old croc-o-style set, might as well just add the bullet resistance stat to the sydney sleeper - it makes you a little less useless if the enemy team has a sniper, but a competent enemy sniper is still able to kill you because he can quickscope + noscope/bodyshot you, while you have to gamble on a full charge bodyshot.