I wanted to make a separate thread to discuss it more holistically.
The most recent update featured several changes and balance updates related to weapon switch speed. Globally every class is now slightly better at comboing. I'd argue demo and soldier benefit the most from this, and this almost seems like a 6s conscious decision from valve, since it now allows soldier to more consistently 1-2 a scout with the shotgun. It could encourage the return of shotgun pocket who knows I guess?
The big weird change that should probably be discussed is the axtinguisher: a weapon now balanced because of draw speed. The axt is like, unique in tf2 now. No other weapon has a strong upside balanced by being a slow draw. The fists of steel are similar, but they're a global switch and weapon switching isn't a big thing for heavy. The main point to consider I guess is that valve shows they want to use switch and draw speed as a serious consideration in weapon selection like CSGO.
Is this a good move for tf2? Could an OP shotgun be balanced by a double draw time? Its a change that allows for a lot more subtle fine tuning of class balance obviously, but should it be differentiated on a core level? Should the shotgun universally have a faster draw time than the RL for example? Could giving all melees a fast draw speed be a balance change to encourage the stock melees to not be shit? What weapons should have their draw times altered?
idk
I wanted to make a separate thread to discuss it more holistically.
The most recent update featured several changes and balance updates related to weapon switch speed. Globally every class is now slightly better at comboing. I'd argue demo and soldier benefit the most from this, and this almost seems like a 6s conscious decision from valve, since it now allows soldier to more consistently 1-2 a scout with the shotgun. It could encourage the return of shotgun pocket who knows I guess?
The big weird change that should probably be discussed is the axtinguisher: a weapon now balanced because of draw speed. The axt is like, unique in tf2 now. No other weapon has a strong upside balanced by being a slow draw. The fists of steel are similar, but they're a global switch and weapon switching isn't a big thing for heavy. The main point to consider I guess is that valve shows they want to use switch and draw speed as a serious consideration in weapon selection like CSGO.
Is this a good move for tf2? Could an OP shotgun be balanced by a double draw time? Its a change that allows for a lot more subtle fine tuning of class balance obviously, but should it be differentiated on a core level? Should the shotgun universally have a faster draw time than the RL for example? Could giving all melees a fast draw speed be a balance change to encourage the stock melees to not be shit? What weapons should have their draw times altered?
idk
this was a pretty (unitentionally?) nice buff to demo from what I've seen
I like how everything, for the most part, switches at the same rate, but i could see valve adding in longer draw times for weapons they might see as being too easy to combo with, or weapons that are on the cusp of being balanced, but need something to slightly change their strength in either way
might be interesting if each class were to switch at different speeds by default, with the heavy taking longer than average and the medic faster, idk. I dont think adding draw time as a factor will matter in most cases anyway, but it could make for more interesting variety
this was a pretty (unitentionally?) nice buff to demo from what I've seen
I like how everything, for the most part, switches at the same rate, but i could see valve adding in longer draw times for weapons they might see as being too easy to combo with, or weapons that are on the cusp of being balanced, but need something to slightly change their strength in either way
might be interesting if each class were to switch at different speeds by default, with the heavy taking longer than average and the medic faster, idk. I dont think adding draw time as a factor will matter in most cases anyway, but it could make for more interesting variety
I haven't played a scrim/match as pocket since the update, however I can say just from experience with fighting scouts having a faster switch speed to shotgun makes engagements with scouts much easier
What I really would like to see is if this update slowly shifts the dominant class of 6s from scout back to pocket.
I haven't played a scrim/match as pocket since the update, however I can say just from experience with fighting scouts having a faster switch speed to shotgun makes engagements with scouts much easier
What I really would like to see is if this update slowly shifts the dominant class of 6s from scout back to pocket.
the best mge strat for soldier now is literally to switch weapons between every shot, you get way more dps out. it's way more broken than most people realise
the best mge strat for soldier now is literally to switch weapons between every shot, you get way more dps out. it's way more broken than most people realise
Pellovleymight be interesting if each class were to switch at different speeds by default, with the heavy taking longer than average and the medic faster, idk. I dont think adding draw time as a factor will matter in most cases anyway, but it could make for more interesting variety
like the switch speed on the CZ in CS is one of the biggest drawbacks to the weapon. It'd be interesting to see a similar weapon in tf2 I guess. This could in general be a good way to discourage use of weapons that are kind of broken but not necessarily fixable with other stat tweaks. A longer draw/switch time on the Loose cannon might reinforce the shittiness of it as a PDW for example
also yeah pocket just feels so much better now
[quote=Pellovley]
might be interesting if each class were to switch at different speeds by default, with the heavy taking longer than average and the medic faster, idk. I dont think adding draw time as a factor will matter in most cases anyway, but it could make for more interesting variety[/quote]
like the switch speed on the CZ in CS is one of the biggest drawbacks to the weapon. It'd be interesting to see a similar weapon in tf2 I guess. This could in general be a good way to discourage use of weapons that are kind of broken but not necessarily fixable with other stat tweaks. A longer draw/switch time on the Loose cannon might reinforce the shittiness of it as a PDW for example
also yeah pocket just feels so much better now
StaticVoidI haven't played a scrim/match as pocket since the update, however I can say just from experience with fighting scouts having a faster switch speed to shotgun makes engagements with scouts much easier
What I really would like to see is if this update slowly shifts the dominant class of 6s from scout back to pocket.
Gonna take a wild guess and say that scouts are still going to faceroll at high levels. Also that gunboats are probably still the better option, although shotgun is a fair bit stronger now.
[quote=StaticVoid]I haven't played a scrim/match as pocket since the update, however I can say just from experience with fighting scouts having a faster switch speed to shotgun makes engagements with scouts much easier
What I really would like to see is if this update slowly shifts the dominant class of 6s from scout back to pocket.[/quote]
Gonna take a wild guess and say that scouts are still going to faceroll at high levels. Also that gunboats are probably still the better option, although shotgun is a fair bit stronger now.
DanceNumberStaticVoidI haven't played a scrim/match as pocket since the update, however I can say just from experience with fighting scouts having a faster switch speed to shotgun makes engagements with scouts much easier
What I really would like to see is if this update slowly shifts the dominant class of 6s from scout back to pocket.
Gonna take a wild guess and say that scouts are still going to faceroll at high levels. Also that gunboats are probably still the better option, although shotgun is a fair bit stronger now.
I doubt it. The medic passive regen severely affects the effectiveness of gunboats roaming soldiers. 2 80ish damage rockets won't be enough to kill a medic with the new regen and the odds of hitting the 3rd before dying is slim.
Also the buff to weapon swap speed is a slight nerf to scout at high levels since scouts rarely use their pistols outside of scout v scout fights. A demo can now more quickly sticky->pipe and a soldier can now more quickly rocket->shotgun making the dps of both classes higher while not affecting the scout's dps at all.
This also goes back to limiting the roamer as now he is effectively in the same predicament as the scout in that his dps has not seen an increase, whereas every other class fighting him now can kill him even .3-.4 seconds faster. Those numbers add up quick when you take reload time and weapon fire times into consideration
I think overall it is a good change, but the implications from it are very big and it'll take people a while to notice their playstyle needing to be tweaked
[quote=DanceNumber][quote=StaticVoid]I haven't played a scrim/match as pocket since the update, however I can say just from experience with fighting scouts having a faster switch speed to shotgun makes engagements with scouts much easier
What I really would like to see is if this update slowly shifts the dominant class of 6s from scout back to pocket.[/quote]
Gonna take a wild guess and say that scouts are still going to faceroll at high levels. Also that gunboats are probably still the better option, although shotgun is a fair bit stronger now.[/quote]
I doubt it. The medic passive regen severely affects the effectiveness of gunboats roaming soldiers. 2 80ish damage rockets won't be enough to kill a medic with the new regen and the odds of hitting the 3rd before dying is slim.
Also the buff to weapon swap speed is a slight nerf to scout at high levels since scouts rarely use their pistols outside of scout v scout fights. A demo can now more quickly sticky->pipe and a soldier can now more quickly rocket->shotgun making the dps of both classes higher while not affecting the scout's dps at all.
This also goes back to limiting the roamer as now he is effectively in the same predicament as the scout in that his dps has not seen an increase, whereas every other class fighting him now can kill him even .3-.4 seconds faster. Those numbers add up quick when you take reload time and weapon fire times into consideration
I think overall it is a good change, but the implications from it are very big and it'll take people a while to notice their playstyle needing to be tweaked
phraxthe best mge strat for soldier now is literally to switch weapons between every shot, you get way more dps out. it's way more broken than most people realise
yeah were they just trying to make chopp even more of a pain in the ass (in mge at least)?
[quote=phrax]the best mge strat for soldier now is literally to switch weapons between every shot, you get way more dps out. it's way more broken than most people realise[/quote]
yeah were they just trying to make chopp even more of a pain in the ass (in mge at least)?
the shotgun switch speed does not feel that much different to me at all. i never hold m1 with the shotty anyways, i always take my time so i dont beef
the shotgun switch speed does not feel that much different to me at all. i never hold m1 with the shotty anyways, i always take my time so i dont beef
does that mean the shotgun soldier is a thing again?
does that mean the shotgun soldier is a thing again?
wrudoes that mean the shotgun soldier is a thing again?
It never left http://i.imgur.com/mvKQu0h.png
[quote=wru]does that mean the shotgun soldier is a thing again?[/quote]
It never left http://i.imgur.com/mvKQu0h.png
^ thats cuz rando can actually aim with the shotty have you seen showstopper's shotty LMFAo
^ thats cuz rando can actually aim with the shotty have you seen showstopper's shotty LMFAo
"rando and grape have the best shotgun in north america" - prototypestf.
"rando and grape have the best shotgun in north america" - prototypestf.
Pyro Mains should have even more of an advantage now
Pyro Mains should have even more of an advantage now
It does give demo and shotgun soldier a bit more power in 6es which is pretty nice, also means that you can do some funky stuff switching between building with arrows and buffing players as med. Pretty much the only class you could say this negatively impacts is scout as it's the least affected compared to demo and soldier in 6es and in pubs/hl it probably won't matter.
It does give demo and shotgun soldier a bit more power in 6es which is pretty nice, also means that you can do some funky stuff switching between building with arrows and buffing players as med. Pretty much the only class you could say this negatively impacts is scout as it's the least affected compared to demo and soldier in 6es and in pubs/hl it probably won't matter.
negatively impacts the roamer very much :( thankfully I don't do damage either way so it didn't nerf me :)
negatively impacts the roamer very much :( thankfully I don't do damage either way so it didn't nerf me :)
Definitely a buff to teams that like sending their pocket in on solo ubers and manhandling the other team ('oldschool' style).
This combined with the medic healing thing definitely emphasise the medic healing a 'hurt patient' (old pocket the damage sink).
Seems pretty cool for sure
Definitely a buff to teams that like sending their pocket in on solo ubers and manhandling the other team ('oldschool' style).
This combined with the medic healing thing definitely emphasise the medic healing a 'hurt patient' (old pocket the damage sink).
Seems pretty cool for sure