why are you stalking like every post I make

I seriously don't even know who you are, this is creepy :(

And if I was casting the big stalemate gaming I'd probably make some mention of how the QF is so knew so the players don't know how to handle it and turtle up, instead of instantly telling 3k people it should be banned.

banning heavy is dumb, and banning quickfix is dumb. two serious problems with the quickfix though is the fact that it can cap while ubered and the healing rate only really gets out dps'd by a heavy ( for the most part). When a krit sticky can hit a med and do a shit ton of damage and not kill him there is something wrong. I think the quickfix just needs a bit of tweaking to become alot more of the rock-paper-scissors effect everyone wants to see.

this is absolutely incorrect, quick fix heavy is >>>>>>>>>>> quick fix pyro, pyro dps is incomparable to the heavy

If there's two serious problems with an unlock that are gamechanging, it should be banned until it isn't as seriously gamechanging. If the DH had the same splash radius as stock, it would force all soldiers to use it. Wouldn't you want it banned because soldier is easier? QF makes crit heals useless just as a same splash DH makes directs useless. The same thing is happening with QF so why would you want it.

That's all i read, I play soldier why would i ever want it banned lol

I also play soldier and I would want that banned.

The fact that QF is currently making a shit ton of dumb stalemates doesn't mean we should ban the medigun. There is off time in the season between the next one so why not see if valve could relook at it.

Let's just see how it plays out for the rest of LAN and the playoff matches.

People were right, there is a rock paper scissors of mediguns now!

And like rock-paper-scissors, nothing happens when you both keep choosing paper.

^Top tier fucking quote.

dang, that was pretty good.

Nicely put but it still makes heavy extremely effective which nobody really likes.

I wonder how different it would have been if a high caliber sniper had been playing.

An alternative way to play? Seriously, we can't complain how OP pyro AND heavy are within weeks of each other and expect to be taken seriously. Players need to adapt. We have snipers and spies that kill heavies just fine. Along with crit stickies and focus fire.

Rock-paper-scissors is better than rock vs. rock every game, with a team occasionally trying to sneak in scissors without rock noticing.

can you stop with these fucking rps analogies

holy shit

The biggest issue is we haven't utilized the mobility of the QF as much as we have the heals. The heavy is a response to an under-developed metagame. Flanky, mobile pockets should be a fairly solid standard in post-QF tf2, but at the moment, we don't have that because of a lack of coordination and familiarity with the weapon.

Please don't let the QF into EU TF2.

More like rock-paper-QUARANTEED LOSS.

The metagame isn't in a "shock" because QF is so interesting and new and innovative, heavy is just the _only_ thing in the game that can out dps a QF uber consistently (not burst damage).

Hey I was one of the few that wanted quickfix banned before lan, but obviously I just hate fun and enjoy a "stale" meta.

If it counts for anything, I started running pain train on roamer after the escape plan got nerfed. Is that crazy enough for you?

Gullywash is also just kinda really bad.

I would rather ban one weapon than ban a while class...

change the meta: BAN MEDIC.

/s

Wow, you mean heavy is relevant in 6's? Finally! Thank GabeN! Looking forward to seeing 5, maybe even 6 classes in the future in 6's!

go back to hl

I might be missing something here, but it seems like at least on paper the heavy is one of the only classes that gets almost no benefits from a quick-fix med. It wont make the medic any more mobile and is one of the classes that really needs a full 150% buff to be as effective as possible. Likewise, it doesn't deal enough simultaneous damage to combat the QF uber.
But idk I'm just a peasant

try to kill a heavy being healed by a qf med
gl

Well OOV I wasn't talking about the DPS of the pyro, I was talking about having him stand inside his own medic's hit boxes and holding down m2. Since QF uber basically has to go on a soldier, his only option is to impotently shotgun the medic, who invariably will be acquiring qf soon. Not to mention if the pyro happens to understand what he's doing and reflects a rocket into somebody and shreds them.

Grape can relate how effective this particular tactic is in more extensive detail. It's not as obvious as running a heavy, but it's basically the the same out come. Although granted at least you have a hope of killing the pyro (a completely inconsequential frag).

The main stalemate factor in the QF comes from the fact that you basically always have it and any decent projectile class can make it impossible to bomb your medic (jump to the sky box anybody?) on any non-interior point. Thus the aggressor is always at a disadvantage because you're always pushing into another qf and it's impossible to qf more than 1 person at a time in general because the qf doesn't flash particularly well, so you're always qfing into a 1v2 or more who also generally have qf. Nor can you just push to their flank because they can instantly jump in front of you and force you into another 1v2+. Not to mention that it's incredibly easy to get your medic out of a bad situation - which is why even on other-than-gullywash maps we saw teams not sustaining 2 point losses for bad fights (generally if you all but wipe you're going to lose the point you're on + have to contest the point behind it, generally losing).

The other big problem with QF is it builds so fast you really cant suicide to get it out, because even if you do, by the time your suicider comes back up they're going to be pretty close to qf again *unless the med drops completely*. Because even if you have good spawn times (6-8 seconds generally) it's going to be 6-8 seconds plus 5+ additional seconds for that player to catch up to the rest of his/her team, and thus the other team is *at least* 50% qf before you even get ready to push with your advantage. Which is why, even when we saw the ol' roamer bomb resulting in a force, we didn't see the defending team give up the point because they just had to kite for a bit and counter qf. That's why in the HRG vs Mix^ finals we actually saw roamers bombing demos because at least if he killed the demo you could use your qf to push into a choke and hope to pull off something with a marginally higher chance of success.

I don't want to get involved in this too much because I don't really have ESEA experience and this is a touchy subject, but here's what I've seen since the QF buff. Feel free to tell me I'm wrong, but I believe my post is accurate on why stalemates happen and why they don't need to happen.

The appeal of a heavy is not about benefitting from the quick-fix as much as completely ignoring the QF drawbacks. Heavy is harder to kill with burst damage (the normal QF counter) because of his massive 300 (375) health pool, and the sustained healing per second requires you to be within the heavy's comfort zone (where he can do insane DPS) to actually damage him. Additionally, he doesn't really need full buffs because 375 is still extremely high, and less of the healing of the uber is wasted because of his large health "buffer". You can safely leave him out of the uber and "flash" him if he needs it.

The most effective counter would be a sniper (as a spy might get the pick if not expected, but having one is a much bigger DM disadvantage). But running a Sniper to counter their Heavy means that they're going to be very picky about pushing and will likely wait for a serious advantage/sniper pick to push because they're afraid of dropping their medic/heavy/anything else. Additionally, the Sniper class is not great for pushes because it lacks the speed and killing power of the scout or soldier you lost.

Lastly, the Heavy counters the QF pretty well. He requires a lot of damage to take down, which will use up valuable Uber time. He also can deal enough damage in close range to outdo or negate the QF uber, which allows teammates to pick them as if they weren't ubered at all. This makes him a good option to hold against a QF push, or to support one of your own. In short, in a world where both teams run the QF, running a Heavy looks like an attractive option almost all of the time. This in turn makes the Sniper a valuable class. Both of these classes, however, tend to slow the game down (at least in my experience) because of their slower, defensive nature.

I don't want the quick-fix banned. I like playing 6s with it, and I like that many medics have a bit more fun with the class now. While it can encourage a playstyle that slows the game down, the LAN matches (especially HRG vs. Mix^) have shown that the stalemate is not due to the medigun but due to how some teams choose to use it. Give it some time and I think people will adapt to pushes that can more effectively counter the QF. A 5-3 score on Process (which has seen its fair share of stalemates) indicates that there is definitely a way to push against the Quick-Fix.

To the heavy class? With the addition of the Quick-Fix, it has become a good class to use in 6v6 in many more situations. However, the fat man still has all of the drawbacks that he has always had. I think that we're going to need to be ready to see him more often. I wish there was something short of banning him that we could do, but that is too extreme for me to support.