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The Weapon Balance Megathread
61
#61
3 Frags +

Also, Valve will never ban stock items because they want to make sure that every player will be able to participate in the matchmaking--remember, the system they're making is made to cater to the F2P with 20 hours in the game as much as it is for anyone else.

If your team's medic only owns the stock medigun and the medigun was banned, then your whole team is screwed. That scenario would never be allowed to happen if Valve has any common sense in them.

Also, Valve will never ban stock items because they want to make sure that every player will be able to participate in the matchmaking--remember, the system they're making is made to cater to the F2P with 20 hours in the game as much as it is for anyone else.

If your team's medic only owns the stock medigun and the medigun was banned, then your whole team is screwed. That scenario would never be allowed to happen if Valve has any common sense in them.
62
#62
5 Frags +

#58:
>also think it should be illegal to ban the last item in a slot. If Quick-fix, medigun, and kritzkrieg are banned, then each medic is forced to run vaccinator. At this point, the vaccinator cannot be banned by either team.

Except valve's not going to give people free weapons even temporary just because all their last weapons were banned, and if you circumvent that by checking what they have then the process of banning after banning a stock weapon gets fucked up, and don't forget about steam server downsides and substitutes joining and all of the other practical nightmares involved with banning stock weapons. It's fucking insane and has no good reason other than "I want to make people do something different" which is forceful and AGAINST the whole point of having a voting system for valve (to get statistics about weapon power).
EDIT: It also allows retarded meta-strategy like only having the wrangler and stock pistol, then banning the pistol yourself so that they can't ban wrangler.

>Enforcer needs to not have a weapon speed nerf. The weapon speed nerf doesn't do anything to most competitive spies, so the weapon acts as a plain old buff most duels.

Except the rate of fire nerf gives it even DPS with stock which is the whole point.

>Pomson's primary problem is that the crappy little particle effect isn't enough to indicate that the most important resource is being drained from you

The biggest problem is that it directly interferes with the primary meta of the game in an unreasonable way. You can't justify giving the best turtle class in the game something that can fuck over the one thing that is literally designed and intended to counter it.

>The backburner specializes the pyro too much still, and yet still not enough. I feel like the backburner gives the pyro a better roaming option slightly, but it doesn't feel like it's so much better for flanking than degreaser/axtinguisher that it would ever really be an upgrade when you're losing so much versatility by using it.

The problem with the backburner is that it's not as good as the degreaser/axtinguisher combo, that's literally the only thing. At the very least, (and this is a solution) giving the degreaser the old 25 ammo, slightly longer refire airblast would make it more fair to the other primaries, making stock the best flamethrower for airblasting without significantly harming the degreaser's original purpose (gas jockey set) and then you could highlight that downside in the other unlocks somehow like making it so that the backburner has a larger airblast cone or something, there's tons of things you could do.

#58:
>also think it should be illegal to ban the last item in a slot. If Quick-fix, medigun, and kritzkrieg are banned, then each medic is forced to run vaccinator. At this point, the vaccinator cannot be banned by either team.

Except valve's not going to give people free weapons even temporary just because all their last weapons were banned, and if you circumvent that by checking what they have then the process of banning after banning a stock weapon gets fucked up, and don't forget about steam server downsides and substitutes joining and all of the other practical nightmares involved with banning stock weapons. It's fucking insane and has no good reason other than "I want to make people do something different" which is forceful and AGAINST the whole point of having a voting system for valve (to get statistics about weapon power).
EDIT: It also allows retarded meta-strategy like only having the wrangler and stock pistol, then [b]banning the pistol yourself so that they can't ban wrangler[/b].

>Enforcer needs to not have a weapon speed nerf. The weapon speed nerf doesn't do anything to most competitive spies, so the weapon acts as a plain old buff most duels.

Except the rate of fire nerf gives it even DPS with stock which is the whole point.

>Pomson's primary problem is that the crappy little particle effect isn't enough to indicate that the most important resource is being drained from you

The biggest problem is that it directly interferes with the primary meta of the game in an unreasonable way. You can't justify giving the best turtle class in the game something that can fuck over the one thing that is literally designed and intended to counter it.

>The backburner specializes the pyro too much still, and yet still not enough. I feel like the backburner gives the pyro a better roaming option slightly, but it doesn't feel like it's so much better for flanking than degreaser/axtinguisher that it would ever really be an upgrade when you're losing so much versatility by using it.

The problem with the backburner is that it's not as good as the degreaser/axtinguisher combo, that's literally the only thing. At the very least, (and this is a solution) giving the degreaser the old 25 ammo, slightly longer refire airblast would make it more fair to the other primaries, making stock the best flamethrower for airblasting without significantly harming the degreaser's original purpose (gas jockey set) and then you could highlight that downside in the other unlocks somehow like making it so that the backburner has a larger airblast cone or something, there's tons of things you could do.
63
#63
0 Frags +

#57, to me, it's a huge jump from allowing stocks to be banned to people having no weapons for a slot. There would almost definitely need to be some way to avoid doing that. In my opinion stocks HAVE to be ban-able, otherwise we'll just end up with the same stagnance as 6s, which Robin wants to avoid.

#57, to me, it's a huge jump from allowing stocks to be banned to people having no weapons for a slot. There would almost definitely need to be some way to avoid doing that. In my opinion stocks HAVE to be ban-able, otherwise we'll just end up with the same stagnance as 6s, which Robin wants to avoid.
64
#64
3 Frags +

#63:
I just covered that, please read my post so that train of thought is properly contextualized for this part of the thread.

#63:
I just covered that, please read my post so that train of thought is properly contextualized for this part of the thread.
65
#65
0 Frags +

Rental weapons will probably be a thing in this system, don't assume Valve won't help noobs get into the system by doing things like this. Don't think of Valve's problems, that's Valve's problems. Think of these things as players. Valve will figure out how to make it work.

And the retarded meta-strategy is actually pretty interesting, you would have to prioritize the Wrangler and have to ban it before banning the Pistol and Short-circuit (why are you banning the short-circuit again? seems like a waste). So you have to get one in before they get two in. That doesn't seem unreasonable, and this also is one of the first cases I've heard in this system where banning order really matters, which is pretty cool.

And read the first post. You're posting solutions. Valve does the solutions. We need to tell Valve what the problem is. Your post about Backburner is 90% solution. Please focus.

Rental weapons will probably be a thing in this system, don't assume Valve won't help noobs get into the system by doing things like this. Don't think of Valve's problems, that's Valve's problems. Think of these things as players. Valve will figure out how to make it work.

And the retarded meta-strategy is actually pretty interesting, you would have to prioritize the Wrangler and have to ban it before banning the Pistol and Short-circuit (why are you banning the short-circuit again? seems like a waste). So you have to get one in before they get two in. That doesn't seem unreasonable, and this also is one of the first cases I've heard in this system where banning order really matters, which is pretty cool.

And read the first post. You're posting solutions. Valve does the solutions. We need to tell Valve what the problem is. Your post about Backburner is 90% solution. Please focus.
66
#66
3 Frags +
Whoopee_Cushion#57, to me, it's a huge jump from allowing stocks to be banned to people having no weapons for a slot. There would almost definitely need to be some way to avoid doing that. In my opinion stocks HAVE to be ban-able, otherwise we'll just end up with the same stagnance as 6s, which Robin wants to avoid.

Bannable stock weapons would end in some people being unable to play in the matchmaking because of what's in their backpacks. And by the way, TF2's config options aren't able to ban stock items without external plugins. Ready Steady Pan had to use either a third-party server extension or have players just use the honor system not to use their primary weapons.

Setting a (fairly low) limit on how many weapons can be banned in each lobby is a much simpler way to both avoid stagnancy and prevent a lot more headaches being added to creating the lobby system.

[quote=Whoopee_Cushion]#57, to me, it's a huge jump from allowing stocks to be banned to people having no weapons for a slot. There would almost definitely need to be some way to avoid doing that. In my opinion stocks HAVE to be ban-able, otherwise we'll just end up with the same stagnance as 6s, which Robin wants to avoid.[/quote]
Bannable stock weapons would end in some people being unable to play in the matchmaking because of what's in their backpacks. And by the way, TF2's config options [b]aren't able to ban stock items [/b]without external plugins. Ready Steady Pan had to use either a third-party server extension or have players just use the honor system not to use their primary weapons.

Setting a (fairly low) limit on how many weapons can be banned in each lobby is a much simpler way to both avoid stagnancy and prevent a lot more headaches being added to creating the lobby system.
67
#67
4 Frags +

Dead Ringer

90% damage reduction makes spy the toughest class in tf2. 1250 damage to kill a spy is pretty silly. Perhaps a falloff in damage reduction after the initial trigger to prevent body blocks, and encourage actual espionage/sneaking?

Dead Ringer

90% damage reduction makes [b]spy the toughest class in tf2[/b]. 1250 damage to kill a spy is pretty silly. Perhaps a falloff in damage reduction after the initial trigger to prevent body blocks, and encourage actual espionage/sneaking?
68
#68
-1 Frags +

So, this isn't going to be a popular opinion, but oh well.

My team at the beginning of last season placed me as the Engie. I was a demo/pyro main before hand, although I obviously had time under all classes, but I began to focus very heavily on Engie when I was selected for it. Before, I thought the wrangler and Mini were kind of annoying, but as I actually focused on the class, I realized something fairly simple.

I ask a question: In Highlander, what is the Engie supposed to do on offense?

Now you can quickly say "build stuff, duh!" But after the teles are down and the Dispenser is up at a choke, what then? You could build an L3 in the back to maybe catch flanks, but you become useless for the frontlines. I dare you to try and get an L3 up on the frontlines, or even just an L1, against a HL team that has even a remote idea of what its doing. Besides that, all you have is the shotgun. You're a slow, fat scout, and with less damage output.

After practicing and focusing on the class, I realize Minis and the wrangler are absolutely needed. Minis are designed for the very purpose of going into the front line in the middle of battle. If you remove either the full health spawn or the health regen, the mini will die 9 times out of 10 without firing a single shot. Once anyone sees a mini being deployed, its focused, and without BOTH the health and regen, the mini dies in seconds and becomes utterly useless.

The wrangler is situational. Defending first on Badwater comes to mind. Without the wrangler, the L3 above the tunnel exit becomes an easy target. You can't return fire to snipers, soldiers, demoman charged sticky shots, anything that can fire from the hill, and they will, and do spam the gun from the hill. Without the wrangler, it is an easy and quick kill. Its shield is necessary because it is ALWAYS spammed and focused, and its range is needed to help cover the needed areas. Wranglers are not perfect weapons, they make the engie completely defenseless himself, and easy pray to a spy, sniper or bombing soldier. Once the engie is killed, the sentry is idle for plenty of time to kill it without it returning to firing mode.

All the talk of "ban the wrangler and mini!" are unhelpful, because in the end, annoying != OP. It may be annoying, but so are sniper headshots and spy backstabs, but no one is looking to ban those. Without them, the engie is heavily gimped as an offensive class, and becomes near worthless on payload blu. The Engineer is the only class in TF2 where nearly all of the unlocks are viable, and they are mostly all needed depending on the situation.

EDIT: All that said, I do believe the auto-aim on the Wrangler should be removed, it feels unnecessary, and honestly is a problem for both the attacker and attackee. No one should be a fan of control being taken from them. The engie should have the skill to aim the weapon to use it. Its shitty for those being attacked, and is shitty for the user as it makes picking different targets from a distance more of a pain and less accurate.

So, this isn't going to be a popular opinion, but oh well.

My team at the beginning of last season placed me as the Engie. I was a demo/pyro main before hand, although I obviously had time under all classes, but I began to focus very heavily on Engie when I was selected for it. Before, I thought the wrangler and Mini were kind of annoying, but as I actually focused on the class, I realized something fairly simple.

I ask a question: In Highlander, what is the Engie supposed to do on offense?

Now you can quickly say "build stuff, duh!" But after the teles are down and the Dispenser is up at a choke, what then? You could build an L3 in the back to maybe catch flanks, but you become useless for the frontlines. I dare you to try and get an L3 up on the frontlines, or even just an L1, against a HL team that has even a remote idea of what its doing. Besides that, all you have is the shotgun. You're a slow, fat scout, and with less damage output.

[b]After practicing and focusing on the class, I realize Minis and the wrangler are absolutely needed[/b]. Minis are designed for the very purpose of going into the front line in the middle of battle. If you remove either the full health spawn or the health regen, the mini will die 9 times out of 10 without firing a single shot. Once anyone sees a mini being deployed, its focused, and without BOTH the health and regen, the mini dies in seconds and becomes utterly useless.

The wrangler is situational. Defending first on Badwater comes to mind. Without the wrangler, the L3 above the tunnel exit becomes an easy target. You can't return fire to snipers, soldiers, demoman charged sticky shots, anything that can fire from the hill, and they will, and do spam the gun from the hill. Without the wrangler, it is an easy and quick kill. Its shield is necessary because it is ALWAYS spammed and focused, and its range is needed to help cover the needed areas. Wranglers are not perfect weapons, they make the engie completely defenseless himself, and easy pray to a spy, sniper or bombing soldier. Once the engie is killed, the sentry is idle for plenty of time to kill it without it returning to firing mode.

All the talk of "ban the wrangler and mini!" are unhelpful, because in the end, annoying != OP. It may be annoying, but so are sniper headshots and spy backstabs, but no one is looking to ban those. Without them, the engie is heavily gimped as an offensive class, and becomes near worthless on payload blu. The Engineer is the only class in TF2 where nearly all of the unlocks are viable, and they are mostly all needed depending on the situation.

EDIT: All that said, I do believe the auto-aim on the Wrangler should be removed, it feels unnecessary, and honestly is a problem for both the attacker and attackee. No one should be a fan of control being taken from them. The engie should have the skill to aim the weapon to use it. Its shitty for those being attacked, and is shitty for the user as it makes picking different targets from a distance more of a pain and less accurate.
69
#69
-5 Frags +
Stew2sy_morphiend Suddenly throwing that out and /forcing/ people to use unlocks is not good for competition at any level.
Could we please leave opinions like this out of our discussions, cause it's obvious that nobody has done the experimentation over a long period of time necessary to prove that in the long run banning such things is unhealthy for the metagame. Please refrain from such obscene speculation.

Okay sure, other team can force you to use an unlock that you probably have never put serious practice in with or may not even have in your inventory, this is great for competition. By the way, for all the years of us talking about valve allowing people to use all unlocks when in mp_tournament mode for the sake of balance, there has been literally 0 pay-off so your certainty that an item rental system would be implemented is more along the lines of "Obscene speculation"

"Obscene speculation" my ass

[quote=Stew][quote=2sy_morphiend] Suddenly throwing that out and /forcing/ people to use unlocks is not good for competition at any level.[/quote]

Could we please leave opinions like this out of our discussions, cause it's obvious that nobody has done the experimentation over a long period of time necessary to prove that in the long run banning such things is unhealthy for the metagame. Please refrain from such obscene speculation.[/quote]

Okay sure, other team can force you to use an unlock that you probably have never put serious practice in with or may not even have in your inventory, this is great for competition. By the way, for all the years of us talking about valve allowing people to use all unlocks when in mp_tournament mode for the sake of balance, there has been literally 0 pay-off so your certainty that an item rental system would be implemented is more along the lines of "Obscene speculation"

"Obscene speculation" my ass
70
#70
2 Frags +
r4pturestuff

OP != what valve is looking for.

They're trying to make the game interesting and fun. Is vitasaw OP? maybe, the extra uber isn't in itself an inherent problem. It's the need for the other medic to use it too to keep uber % even. The problem is it essentially "bans" all other melees, including the ubersaw which IS more fun. vitasaw needs a rework because it's annoying, not because it's OP. Same with wrangler.

The wrangler might be OP. It's debatable. But that doesn't make the need for a rework debatable. Engineers don't have fun using it, everyone else hates working around it, so there's no reason besides the current stopwatch meta to keep the item the way it is.

[quote=r4pture]stuff[/quote]
OP != what valve is looking for.


They're trying to make the game interesting and fun. Is vitasaw OP? maybe, the extra uber isn't in itself an inherent problem. It's the need for the other medic to use it too to keep uber % even. The problem is it essentially "bans" all other melees, including the ubersaw which IS more fun. vitasaw needs a rework because it's annoying, not because it's OP. Same with wrangler.

The wrangler might be OP. It's debatable. But that doesn't make the need for a rework debatable. Engineers don't have fun using it, everyone else hates working around it, so there's no reason besides the current stopwatch meta to keep the item the way it is.
71
#71
-9 Frags +

Can we also address reflected projectiles mini-critting, is that doable?

I think just reflecting projectiles is strength enough, no need to make them mini-crit

Can we also address reflected projectiles mini-critting, is that doable?

I think just reflecting projectiles is strength enough, no need to make them mini-crit
72
#72
-1 Frags +
2sy_morphiendCan we also address reflected projectiles mini-critting, is that doable?

This right here.
Should suffer from fall off from the pyro's positioning

[quote=2sy_morphiend]Can we also address reflected projectiles mini-critting, is that doable?[/quote]
This right here.
Should suffer from fall off from the pyro's positioning
73
#73
0 Frags +

Neon Annihilator should work on jarate'd/milked opponents

2sy_morphiendStew2sy_morphiend Suddenly throwing that out and /forcing/ people to use unlocks is not good for competition at any level.
Could we please leave opinions like this out of our discussions, cause it's obvious that nobody has done the experimentation over a long period of time necessary to prove that in the long run banning such things is unhealthy for the metagame. Please refrain from such obscene speculation.

Okay sure, other team can force you to use an unlock that you probably have never put serious practice in with or may not even have in your inventory, this is great for competition. By the way, for the years of us talking about valve allowing people to use all unlocks when in mp_tournament mode for the sake of balance, there has been literally 0 pay-off so your certainty that an item rental system would be implemented is more along the lines of "Obscene speculation"

"Obscene speculation" my ass

Metagames evolve in extremely odd and unpredictable ways. Stuff like Duc's Spiral team being such a dominant force in the MVC2 world for a long time, but becoming gradually weaker in favor of Storm/Sentinel teams as the games life goes on are completely unpredictable. To think that during the first few years, Iceman was the best character in the game, and now he's not used at all in the high levels of play. You can't account for what will happen, you can only prepare yourself. So start practicing some vaccinator strategies, cause change will come and you will need to prepare for it.

Neon Annihilator should work on jarate'd/milked opponents

[quote=2sy_morphiend][quote=Stew][quote=2sy_morphiend] Suddenly throwing that out and /forcing/ people to use unlocks is not good for competition at any level.[/quote]

Could we please leave opinions like this out of our discussions, cause it's obvious that nobody has done the experimentation over a long period of time necessary to prove that in the long run banning such things is unhealthy for the metagame. Please refrain from such obscene speculation.[/quote]

Okay sure, other team can force you to use an unlock that you probably have never put serious practice in with or may not even have in your inventory, this is great for competition. By the way, for the years of us talking about valve allowing people to use all unlocks when in mp_tournament mode for the sake of balance, there has been literally 0 pay-off so your certainty that an item rental system would be implemented is more along the lines of "Obscene speculation"

"Obscene speculation" my ass[/quote]

Metagames evolve in extremely odd and unpredictable ways. Stuff like Duc's Spiral team being such a dominant force in the MVC2 world for a long time, but becoming gradually weaker in favor of Storm/Sentinel teams as the games life goes on are completely unpredictable. To think that during the first few years, Iceman was the best character in the game, and now he's not used at all in the high levels of play. You can't account for what will happen, you can only prepare yourself. So start practicing some vaccinator strategies, cause change will come and you will need to prepare for it.
74
#74
2 Frags +
RuskeydooSticky Launcher and Minigun come to mind. They are so much better than any other option for their class that virtually nothing else gets played. That sounds like a pretty good definition of 'overpowered' right?
Coincidentally demo and heavy are also two of the most play defining classes in HL. If Valve wants class balance (each class effects the flow of play equally) then this might be a good place to start?

I don't know why this is downfragged, the weapons being stock shouldn't exempt them from being rebalanced, unless people disagree with the idea that they aren't balanced well.

it's ok for a weapon to be good, but when every other choice in that slot extremely gimp you in (very nearly) every situation then there's an issue

[quote=Ruskeydoo]Sticky Launcher and Minigun come to mind. They are so much better than any other option for their class that virtually nothing else gets played. That sounds like a pretty good definition of 'overpowered' right?
Coincidentally demo and heavy are also two of the most play defining classes in HL. If Valve wants class balance (each class effects the flow of play equally) then this might be a good place to start?[/quote]

I don't know why this is downfragged, the weapons being stock shouldn't exempt them from being rebalanced, unless people disagree with the idea that they aren't balanced well.

it's ok for a weapon to be good, but when every other choice in that slot extremely gimp you in (very nearly) every situation then there's an issue
75
#75
-3 Frags +

Not the most pressing, but still.
Rocket Jumper
-No original (firing from the center) style.

I also think the direct hit should have more damage fall off, not more steeply, but not doing 60 dmg a shot from max range.

Not the most pressing, but still.
[b]Rocket Jumper[/b]
-No original (firing from the center) style.

I also think the direct hit should have more damage fall off, not more steeply, but not doing 60 dmg a shot from max range.
76
#76
2 Frags +
PokemonAdventure
2) if airblasted into the ground, your character will be registered as "airborne" until you jump and land again, also granting minicrits.

Valve changed this several months ago and it is no longer the case, FYI. Airblasting downwards strangely now pushes the airblasted enemy upwards and into the air.

And as a Pyro who really enjoyed using the RS almost 100% of the time in previous seasons, it's now painfully obvious to me (and pretty much every other high level Pyro) that, as a Pyro in HL your presence and dmg assistance is required in longer teamfights and the plummet in DPS while reloading your 3 shots is simply too punishing.

It's a sidegrade and people get upset when killed by it because the (mini)crit icon shows up on the killfeed and they feel the Pyro didn't deserve that spike in damage.

In 6s I suppose it'd be pretty overpowered because you're mainly only playing Pyro during last holds and teamfights are much shorter with only 6 players per team.

[quote=PokemonAdventure]

2) if airblasted into the ground, your character will be registered as "airborne" until you jump and land again, also granting minicrits. [/quote]
Valve changed this several months ago and it is no longer the case, FYI. Airblasting downwards strangely now pushes the airblasted enemy upwards and into the air.

And as a Pyro who really enjoyed using the RS almost 100% of the time in previous seasons, it's now painfully obvious to me (and pretty much every other high level Pyro) that, as a Pyro in HL your presence and dmg assistance is required in longer teamfights and the plummet in DPS while reloading your 3 shots is simply too punishing.

It's a sidegrade and people get upset when killed by it because the (mini)crit icon shows up on the killfeed and they feel the Pyro didn't deserve that spike in damage.

In 6s I suppose it'd be pretty overpowered because you're mainly only playing Pyro during last holds and teamfights are much shorter with only 6 players per team.
77
#77
2 Frags +

>It's a sidegrade and people get upset when killed by it because the (mini)crit icon shows up on the killfeed and they feel the Pyro didn't deserve that spike in damage.

I get mad because I know that the pyro is literally giving up teamfight and self defense power in order to have yet another way to fuck over individual players in their face, except this time it's both ranged and undodgeable giving them the same kind of "fuck you 1v1" advantage as the soda popper and liberty launcher and loch 'n load etc all do.

>It's a sidegrade and people get upset when killed by it because the (mini)crit icon shows up on the killfeed and they feel the Pyro didn't deserve that spike in damage.

I get mad because I know that the pyro is literally giving up teamfight and self defense power in order to have yet another way to fuck over individual players in their face, except this time it's both ranged and undodgeable giving them the same kind of "fuck you 1v1" advantage as the soda popper and liberty launcher and loch 'n load etc all do.
78
#78
2 Frags +
wareyaI get mad because I know that the pyro is literally giving up teamfight and self defense power in order to have yet another way to fuck over individual players in their face, except this time it's both ranged and undodgeable giving them the same kind of "fuck you 1v1" advantage as the soda popper and liberty launcher and loch 'n load etc all do.

Brought this up to a friend, and he made the point that its not just that players are better in 1v1s, its that these weapons resolve fights faster. We're used to a certain cadence in DM, and its part of the reason people play tf2 over games like CoD or CS where players die within a second of being seen.

Dying in one airblast and shot shuts you down before you feel like the fight should have finished. That is what is frustrating, imo.

[quote=wareya]I get mad because I know that the pyro is literally giving up teamfight and self defense power in order to have yet another way to fuck over individual players in their face, except this time it's both ranged and undodgeable giving them the same kind of "fuck you 1v1" advantage as the soda popper and liberty launcher and loch 'n load etc all do.[/quote]
Brought this up to a friend, and he made the point that its not just that players are better in 1v1s, its that these weapons resolve fights faster. We're used to a certain cadence in DM, and its part of the reason people play tf2 over games like CoD or CS where players die within a second of being seen.

Dying in one airblast and shot shuts you down before you feel like the fight should have finished. That is what is frustrating, imo.
79
#79
0 Frags +

The google Doc linked in the OP (well, my second post) has been updated with everything mentioned so far that seems to be worthy of mention. If I have missed something you or someone else posted that should be added, let me know. If you want access to edit the googleDoc, let me know.

My steam ID

The google Doc linked in the OP (well, my second post) has been updated with everything mentioned so far that seems to be worthy of mention. If I have missed something you or someone else posted that should be added, let me know. If you want access to edit the googleDoc, let me know.

[url=http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198012244031/]My steam ID[/url]
80
#80
0 Frags +
PAPASTAINI believe the reserve shooter to be otherwise fine, due to the fact that the clips being halved severely gimps any sort of backup for a soldier (the pyro, on the other hand, can certainly be argued). However, the reason it's so widely banned is due to an exploit, where minicrits can land on anyone who happens to be going down stairs.

This was fixed. Airblasting downwards doesn't freeze people anymore, it knocks them in the air just like any other airblast. No glitch.

Pretty sur it's still minicritting on people in water or on stairs though.

EDIT: this is easily fixed by making it only minicrit after airblasts / juggles

[quote=PAPASTAIN]
I believe the reserve shooter to be otherwise fine, due to the fact that the clips being halved severely gimps any sort of backup for a soldier (the pyro, on the other hand, can certainly be argued). However, the reason it's so widely banned is due to an exploit, where minicrits can land on anyone who happens to be going down stairs.[/quote]

This was fixed. Airblasting downwards doesn't freeze people anymore, it knocks them in the air just like any other airblast. No glitch.

Pretty sur it's still minicritting on people in water or on stairs though.

EDIT: this is easily fixed by making it only minicrit after airblasts / juggles
81
#81
0 Frags +

RS has minicrit knockback power, which is really powerful against jumpers if you don't want to risk a missed airshot. Main reason I see it should be banned, considering prenerf FaN was banned for a similar reason (hit 1 pellet get fucked jumper).

RS has minicrit knockback power, which is really powerful against jumpers if you don't want to risk a missed airshot. Main reason I see it should be banned, considering prenerf FaN was banned for a similar reason (hit 1 pellet get fucked jumper).
82
#82
5 Frags +

I feel like minis spawning with full health and regenerating hp during build up is way too good. They're already better than normal sentries and give you +25 health. Their hitbox is really small and the convenient way buildings take less damage means that they will waste a lot of ammo. Their main identity seems to be that of a throwaway gun that adds utility by increased presence on the map. I do not understand why they also serve as ammo/damage sponges when an engineer over extends and decides to start crapping them all over the place.

I feel like minis spawning with full health and regenerating hp during build up is way too good. They're already better than normal sentries and give you +25 health. Their hitbox is really small and the convenient way buildings take less damage means that they will waste a lot of ammo. Their main identity seems to be that of a throwaway gun that adds utility by increased presence on the map. I do not understand why they also serve as ammo/damage sponges when an engineer over extends and decides to start crapping them all over the place.
83
#83
0 Frags +

Winger's extra damage doesn't make up for the lower clip size. 100% accuracy with the Winger will deal less damage than 50% accuracy with the Pistol.

Bleed in DX8 makes it really hard to tell what's going on because of the red overlay, which makes getting hit by the Flying Guillotine and Wrap Assassin super obnoxious for people who can't play in DX9. It's less of a problem for the melee weapons that cause bleed (Shiv, Basher, etc.) because you have to be in melee range for it, but being able to spam it from long range makes it more problematic.

Liberty Launcher gives Soldiers who actually know how to aim no real benefit (in fact, the different projectile speed can hinder Soldiers who are used to the stock speed), while giving them a huge downside. This problem doesn't matter to bad Soldiers, since they can't make full use of their four rockets anyways, so they get an easier projectile for no real downside.

Battalion's Backup takes way too long to charge for an effect that is.. alright, I guess. The crit protection isn't really useful because it takes too long to deploy to save your teammates from a Kritz, and people who know what's going on won't deploy a Kritz when they know it won't be effective.

Just what I can think of on the top of my head. The bigger problems have already been discussed fairly well at this point.

Winger's extra damage doesn't make up for the lower clip size. 100% accuracy with the Winger will deal less damage than 50% accuracy with the Pistol.

Bleed in DX8 makes it really hard to tell what's going on because of the red overlay, which makes getting hit by the Flying Guillotine and Wrap Assassin super obnoxious for people who can't play in DX9. It's less of a problem for the melee weapons that cause bleed (Shiv, Basher, etc.) because you have to be in melee range for it, but being able to spam it from long range makes it more problematic.

Liberty Launcher gives Soldiers who actually know how to aim no real benefit (in fact, the different projectile speed can hinder Soldiers who are used to the stock speed), while giving them a huge downside. This problem doesn't matter to bad Soldiers, since they can't make full use of their four rockets anyways, so they get an easier projectile for no real downside.

Battalion's Backup takes way too long to charge for an effect that is.. alright, I guess. The crit protection isn't really useful because it takes too long to deploy to save your teammates from a Kritz, and people who know what's going on won't deploy a Kritz when they know it won't be effective.

Just what I can think of on the top of my head. The bigger problems have already been discussed fairly well at this point.
84
#84
0 Frags +

A lot of these changes are live in tightrope. Join the steam group to get updated about playtesting times.

http://steamcommunity.com/groups/tf2tightrope?l=english

We're working on setting up pugs or lobbies with our servers, but the plugin fucks with tournament mode. We're figuring it out.

A lot of these changes are live in tightrope. Join the steam group to get updated about playtesting times.

http://steamcommunity.com/groups/tf2tightrope?l=english

We're working on setting up pugs or lobbies with our servers, but the plugin fucks with tournament mode. We're figuring it out.
85
#85
1 Frags +

I do not like the minisentry because as a flank class, many opportunities where I can do a ton of work is shut down. I've completely outmaneuvered several players to get into this spot, they don't know I'm there. And then suddenly the minisentry just beeps and you're being pummeled.

To get rid of it, you have to shoot two rockets at it (in a situation where you most likely already have spent one rocket jumping). Depending on the distance, you still lose a considerable amount of health. But not only has the minisentry wasted your ammo, their omnipotent minisentry has just alerted EVERYONE ON THEIR TEAM of your EXACT LOCATION, as well as almost completely neutralizing your ammo.

Then you get completely destroyed by their team.

Try to ignore it and go for the medic? Difficult. It will completely mess up your momentum, as well as steadily taking out your health. And their team will still rip you to shreds.

And the rocket launcher is a fairly good weapon to fight against the minisentries. I imagine it being a lot more awkward for flanking pyros and scouts and the like to deal with it, especially due to its small hitbox and large range.

Basically, its way too effective at shutting down areas for flanking. I'm not saying its foolproof, and that its ridiculously OP, but it is annoying as hell to play against, and honestly requires virtually no effort to use, as well as having several benefits to the engineer such as the extra health and combo hit melee (honestly not very useful but still there)
-----------
The Wrangler is just annoying because the engineer can do something stupid like leave his sentry completely (or maybe be respawning) and as soon as my first spam rocket hits it, regardless of where he is on the map, he can flick out the wrangler and BOOM. Instant 3x HP.

I feel like the aim assist is both a benefit and a downside; the downside being it can only fire at the center of the model, which might be behind cover. It'd be nice if aim assist was reduced but still did this, but that's not why I'm here.

/end engie rant

Liberty Launcher is a crutch that encourages playing with a disadvantage while filling a void in DM ability.

Just my two cents, please do not be seriously offended and vow vengeance.

I do not like the minisentry because as a flank class, many opportunities where I can do a ton of work is shut down. I've completely outmaneuvered several players to get into this spot, they don't know I'm there. And then suddenly the minisentry just beeps and you're being pummeled.

To get rid of it, you have to shoot two rockets at it (in a situation where you most likely already have spent one rocket jumping). Depending on the distance, you still lose a considerable amount of health. But not only has the minisentry wasted your ammo, their omnipotent minisentry has just alerted EVERYONE ON THEIR TEAM of your EXACT LOCATION, as well as almost completely neutralizing your ammo.

Then you get completely destroyed by their team.

Try to ignore it and go for the medic? Difficult. It will completely mess up your momentum, as well as steadily taking out your health. And their team will still rip you to shreds.

And the rocket launcher is a fairly good weapon to fight against the minisentries. I imagine it being a lot more awkward for flanking pyros and scouts and the like to deal with it, especially due to its small hitbox and large range.


Basically, its way too effective at shutting down areas for flanking. I'm not saying its foolproof, and that its ridiculously OP, but it is annoying as hell to play against, and honestly requires virtually no effort to use, as well as having several benefits to the engineer such as the extra health and combo hit melee (honestly not very useful but still there)
-----------
The Wrangler is just annoying because the engineer can do something stupid like leave his sentry completely (or maybe be respawning) and as soon as my first spam rocket hits it, regardless of where he is on the map, he can flick out the wrangler and BOOM. Instant 3x HP.

I feel like the aim assist is both a benefit and a downside; the downside being it can only fire at the center of the model, which might be behind cover. It'd be nice if aim assist was reduced but still did this, but that's not why I'm here.


/end engie rant

Liberty Launcher is a crutch that encourages playing with a disadvantage while filling a void in DM ability.

Just my two cents, please do not be seriously offended and vow vengeance.
86
#86
-1 Frags +
KoobadoobsDegreaser

W/o the degreaser pyro becomes almost quite literally a W+M1 only class, honestly they should've just made the base flamethrower what the degreaser is now. Without the degreaser pyro is basically irrelevant.

Sniper Rifle
Instead of 200ms delay for headshots, how about 100ms or 150ms considering it's easily possible to scope in and react faster than the headshot delay. Would help raise the skill ceiling of the class overall, and still solve the problems of being to powerful at super close range.

[quote=Koobadoobs][b]Degreaser[/b][/quote]

W/o the degreaser pyro becomes almost quite literally a W+M1 only class, honestly they should've just made the base flamethrower what the degreaser is now. Without the degreaser pyro is basically irrelevant.

[b]Sniper Rifle[/b]
Instead of 200ms delay for headshots, how about 100ms or 150ms considering it's easily possible to scope in and react faster than the headshot delay. Would help raise the skill ceiling of the class overall, and still solve the problems of being to powerful at super close range.
87
#87
-2 Frags +
ComangliaKoobadoobsDegreaserWithout the degreaser pyro is basically irrelevant.

So spy-checking, extinguishing teammates, reflecting and juggling ubers are completely useless? The degreaser is completely unnecessary to gameplay and rewards players who can't think to switch weapons before they actually need it. The decreased switch time makes pyro more of a crit-whore than the support class it was originally intended to be and is not needed at all to play Pyro effectively. How do you think Pyro players played before the degreaser was added?

[quote=Comanglia][quote=Koobadoobs][b]Degreaser[/b][/quote]
Without the degreaser pyro is basically irrelevant.[/quote]
So spy-checking, extinguishing teammates, reflecting and juggling ubers are completely useless? The degreaser is completely unnecessary to gameplay and rewards players who can't think to switch weapons before they actually need it. The decreased switch time makes pyro more of a crit-whore than the support class it was originally intended to be and is not needed at all to play Pyro effectively. How do you think Pyro players played before the degreaser was added?
88
#88
0 Frags +
EkComangliaKoobadoobsbold stuffstuffstuff

Degreaser is the only way Pyro can keep up with the other classes. Simply walking backwards prevents the Pyro from doing damage with his primary weapon, forcing him to choose between switching weapons and being vulnerable to projectiles for at least 1.3 seconds, not being able to do anything unless the enemy team feeds him a projectile, or walking in a predictable path to close distance. The Degreaser actually allows him to be a threat while not making him an easy kill.

[quote=Ek][quote=Comanglia][quote=Koobadoobs][b]bold stuff[/b][/quote]
stuff[/quote]
stuff[/quote] Degreaser is the only way Pyro can keep up with the other classes. Simply walking backwards prevents the Pyro from doing damage with his primary weapon, forcing him to choose between switching weapons and being vulnerable to projectiles for at least 1.3 seconds, not being able to do anything unless the enemy team feeds him a projectile, or walking in a predictable path to close distance. The Degreaser actually allows him to be a threat while not making him an easy kill.
89
#89
0 Frags +
OafmealDead Ringer

90% damage reduction makes spy the toughest class in tf2. 1250 damage to kill a spy is pretty silly. Perhaps a falloff in damage reduction after the initial trigger to prevent body blocks, and encourage actual espionage/sneaking?

Perhaps the longer the spy stays cloaked with the DR, the more damage the spy will take. So right when he uses the DR, he has a 90% DMG reduction, and half way through the cloak, for example, it will be like 45% and so on.

[quote=Oafmeal]Dead Ringer

90% damage reduction makes [b]spy the toughest class in tf2[/b]. 1250 damage to kill a spy is pretty silly. Perhaps a falloff in damage reduction after the initial trigger to prevent body blocks, and encourage actual espionage/sneaking?[/quote]


Perhaps the longer the spy stays cloaked with the DR, the more damage the spy will take. So right when he uses the DR, he has a 90% DMG reduction, and half way through the cloak, for example, it will be like 45% and so on.
90
#90
0 Frags +

Dead Ringer isn't absurdly strong though, if it were to receive a nerf it would need a buff of another sort as well (like say, lowering the uncloak volume if you really want to encourage more sneaking).

In 6s basically no one uses it.

In Highlander it's used but it's also more predictable than the other two watches and with a little bit of effort you can just force the Spy to essentially be dead by getting him into a cycle of triggering the DR over and over.

Its synergy with the Spy set (in pubs), Spycicle, and Enforcer though is mega annoying but that is mostly because it's pretty apparent Valve forced synergy on the stats there imo and is kind of problems with those items rather than the Dead Ringer itself really.

Dead Ringer isn't absurdly strong though, if it were to receive a nerf it would need a buff of another sort as well (like say, lowering the uncloak volume if you really want to encourage more sneaking).

In 6s basically no one uses it.

In Highlander it's used but it's also more predictable than the other two watches and with a little bit of effort you can just force the Spy to essentially be dead by getting him into a cycle of triggering the DR over and over.

Its synergy with the Spy set (in pubs), Spycicle, and Enforcer though is mega annoying but that is mostly because it's pretty apparent Valve forced synergy on the stats there imo and is kind of problems with those items rather than the Dead Ringer itself really.
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