Allowing people to say faggot and rape in a competitive setting is as simple as allowing people to say what they want and to insult each other as is. Australians call each other cunts constantly, and the assertion that we should make it openly condemned by the community to use language like faggot pretending that we're being respectful of people when everyone in this game insults each other in other ways is meaningless. I can tell someone that their brain is equivalent to a chromosome flooded bog and even Sal commends it, but seriously wagering that that if I were to have called him a faggot there would be negative consequences is stretching the boundaries of reason. Any attempt at censorship in the community takes something away from the players that was there before and exists in amplitudes far greater in similar hobbies, even table top gamers talk copious amounts of shit.

I'm not pro-usage of the words or anything, I'm not going to condemn someone for choosing not to use them, however I am against censoring what people can and can't say in the community.

Your point that language is a two way street is correct, but it also aids my point by maintaining that large portions of it are how it is interpreted. Being an adult means knowing that you are responsible for yourself and your emotions, and since there are clearly a large number of /actually/ gay competitive TF2 players that aren't offended by use of faggot then it is clearly possible to understand that meaning/intent is not limited by denotation.

Basically this:

http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive/phd081508s.gif

OP, I am so glad you made this thread. This is something that I have thought about before but did not make a thread about because I thought the community would just jump down my throat and tell me to stop whining. I am glad to see that at least some of the community has shown respect and maturity.

Some of the arguments in this thread:

That is not even in the remotest sense close to how empathy works.
http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/155500/stan-gets-it

Thanks for trivializing the feelings of everyone else who can find these things offensive just because YOU don't think it's a problem.

But you do use the words to be synonymous with "bad" or "dumb," which is STILL INSULTING to the demographic in question, just like obviously so. Subtle prejudice is still prejudice.

What if instead of calling someone a faggot every time they did something you didn't like, you called them a nigger instead? It's okay as long as they're not a black person? C'mon guys, seriously.

Man, why did people care so much about Jim Crow laws anyway; all these other states had them too, so who cares? /s

Thank you for all the thoughtful posts from people like OP (hanbrolo), ctrlfmuffin, pudding cup, and ehFk.
This basically sums up the entire thread:

ur gay

I love it when my boyfriend pulls my hair and calls me faggot

Right, as if the moment we tell people to stop saying faggot is also the moment that the tf2 competitive scene becomes a literal police state. You are making the broad implication that because, as a culture, competitive video games have historically used these words, that all of the sudden means you are okay to use them. Nothing about preserving these words in our community fights censorship, there isn't any reason to believe that getting rid of that terminology will somehow open the floodgates, and that one day you'll get banned for saying "fuck" in a post. It is entirely unrealistic, frankly. If you can prove that that scenario is, and would be, the case for the tf2 community, by all means you are right.

But, at the moment, given every single community that I have ever been a part of that has told their members to not say shit like that, I can safely assume that the removal of terms like "faggot" and "rape[d]" from our vernacular could only really become a good thing.

There will come a point where we can no longer get away with this shit, and I think we should all just transition away from it (which we are, admittedly, doing rather well so far) now, than look like all of those comp CoD videos where it's a bunch of people shouting stupid shit at each other.

clorg

thought you said kiss and dont tell

I wouldn't get upset if someone called me a faggot, but i can understand entirely why other people would get offended by the word. It's annoying me to see people in this thread arguing that its ok to say faggot just because they're ok with being called faggot, learn to be empathetic ^^.

DEATHFORCE9 ☠

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAj26rVWK14 bracing for minus frags.

Take offense to it if you want. Nigga is used all the time, hell on my way home I probably heard it more times lyrically than I've ever heard it used actual hatespeech.
Seriously, loose butthole.

enigma_ban_hammer_enable 1

Because I differ in opinion about verbage?
That's cute.

I tried my best to reread the thread several times (thrice, to be exact), and couldn't find anyone suggesting anything even remotely similar to any sort of censorship other than yourself, merely people expressing a desire for people to be more conscious of their word choice when it is possible to offend people. This seems to me to be the crux of your argument in the paragraph I quoted, and I'm dumbfounded as to what you're actually arguing against since no one here is arguing for censorship at all.

As for your point about physcotherapy and part of therapy being related to demeaning the original hurtful aspects of the word, I feel this isn't a valid support for people being allowed to say those words. Physcotherapy is such a dynamic field that there isn't really a universal way to alleviate trauma. Due to the complexity and amount of genetic material that codes for brain devolopment as well as the rapid rates of adaptation in the brain, I would be astounded if brains didn't differ enough to require different approaches for each individual person, if not every single time one meets with a patient.

Now, something else has been bothering me about your argument as well.

If I may paraphrase and grossly oversimplify your argument in order to bring something to light, it seems to me that you think this:

Person A makes the conscious decision to say "faggot", knowing that Person A will be offended.
Person B makes the conscious decision to be offended by the word "faggot", knowing Person A did not intend it in a derogatory sense.
Therefore, It is Person B's fault that they are offended and Person A is entirely justified in using virtually any language he or she wishes to as anyone who thinks anything is offensive is expressing an opinion that is supported by rather weak and double-standarded logic.

(Let me know if this summary of your argument is incorrect, I don't want to put words in your mouth, just trying to make a point.)

Even if we disregard the multitude of physcological evidence that points to the conclusion that trauma and other such reactions to words are not always entirely conscious choices, there still seems to me to be a logical contradiction here. I'm not trained in classical logic or rhetoric to the extent I wish I was, but I still fail to see how Person A is at any less of a fault than Person B. Both parties are ignoring factual evidence when they make choices (even if you're right about offense being solely a choice), whether they be emotional or physical. Why is Person A in the moral high-ground in your mind? Are they not, in this highly exaggerated example? Is your argument that humor justifies him making the choice to say "faggot" even knowing it will offend Person B? Or is he justified in saying "faggot" because Person B is making their choice to be offended without rational justification? If the last part is true, is Person B not being limited or censored as well? In other words, are people only allowed to do things if they have rational justification, and if they don't, they just have to live with what other people do? Isn't that a form of censorship in it of itself?

Look forward to your response, and I wish you wouldn't bring personal anecdotes into this argument, if you want I can have all my LGBT friends that have been hurt by the word "faggot" to make accounts and testify, and just because you and your friend like joking about stuff doesn't mean everyone does.

Yeah I am too! I debated for about half the morning on it but I really just wanted to have a discussion on it since it has always bothered me a little bit. I'm so immensely thankful to everyone who posted in this thread (especially mesr), I'm glad to be a part of the TF2 community (kinda sorta) and thankful that we as a community can have an educated, fun, discussion on this.

Wow I actually have myopia and have been insulted for wearing glasses in school how could you bring up a word like that and just throw it around in general conversation

Today also happens to be the 20th Anniversary of Branch Davidian raid in Waco, Texas

wow, i had a conversation with my bisexual female friend about this, she wasn't talking today but in essence i was questioning the need for silence over something like a petition of some sort, the answers she gave me were that this "silence" is self spreading and that thousands of people are participating, but what if you got all those people to have a petition signed and taking a step in the right direction by mailing in your list of signature's, how can obama look the other way on gay rights issues if he is faced with a textbook size petition with so many supporters? Her argument against a petition is that the Silence draws attention to the cause, but so does a petition and formal well organized petitions are much more powerful then handful of kids seperatly protesting by not talking.

:)

Yo dawg, I wasn't trivializing anyone. Please don't accuse me of that. I just said that I personally wasn't bothered by it, I never said it was perfectly fine to use these words in every day speech just because I personally don't give a fuck if someone calls me a faggot. If someone asks me to not say faggot around them, I can respect that.

It's censorship when you are actively supporting the condemnation of people saying something that should not be offensive and clearly isn't offensive to a large portion of the gay competitive TF2 players here. Personally, I feel that something is lost when someone chooses to express anger in a way meant to offend no one and suddenly there are 4 white knights in a stream chat telling him not to say faggot because it's just not okay and might offend someone. I have 0 interest in trading anecdotal evidence with you because it isn't a part of proper debate and it devolves into people talking past each other, that being said on subjects like this since they center primarily on individual reaction it is nearly impossible to escape some anecdotal evidence. Clearly there is a case to be made for a significant number of people that supposedly could be offended by word choice not being offended at all and being cognizant that the usage of it is far and away from any homophobic connotation it may have once had. Regardless of any unconscious or involuntary reactions to language that may take place, it clearly is not deterministic on community growth or maintenance at any level.

I don't think your argument that someone choosing to be offended when they shouldn't be or when someone doesn't intend to offend them is censorship at all. Being offended is meaningless and subjective and potentially limitless as so many people in this thread have already observed/parodied. Realistically, there is no reason to ever actually insult anyone that plays this game and the community would probably be better for it right? However, we know that this is utopic and no one suggests that EVERYBODY BE NICE because it just isn't fun or interesting. It's an exaggeration, but it's still quite clear that faggot/rape/whatever isn't being used in a serious enough context or with genuine deprecating intent by anyone in this community in any circumstance that pertains to the community in such a way as that it is intended to offend or demean anyone.

Your example is also wrong because Person A can just as easily say faggot without expecting someone to be offended because the word is thrown around so often that it is meaningless. Additionally I would extend this to a number of other words that I think people gloss over that are potentially offensive: fat, bastard, idiot, dumb, jesus christ (religion has it's own encyclopedia of potentially offensive terms), retard, downy, autistic, weeaboo, virgin, and so many others but I think the point is made.

I chose to make an argument for not caring about what people say and keeping your own emotions in check, and while you commend mesr you do realize that he basically said, "I'm just going to keep on saying it, and if you get mad that's your problem."

EDIT: Munch already posted, I'd just like to echo that faulting someone for not taking up the sword for all of their BRETHREN BY OPPRESSION and thereby accusing them of trivializing someone else's reaction is just dumb.

Yea lets get rid of people saying faggot and raped, keep using nigger, no1 cares about racism only rape and gays

edgy

Using "faggot" to offend gay people is like using "retard" to insult mentally challenged people. Basically, no one does this anymore, or if they do then they're a retarded faggot.

Eliminating the word from everyday use will just give those who use it to hurt more power/impact when it's used. Why would LGBT supporters want that?

boy I hope none of you cuties play APB, you might poo your pants.

I probably don't help the cause trolling with this fine piece of gayness of mine. (i'm the pink afro/dickmobile).

http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/866090369429142747/A183E528C20FC577FB8ED4129E659656E0372268/
http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/866090369445569957/8E140A7EBD58646ED5F24C71A5B94424CFBD2AFB/
http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/866090369410983896/5F1E71DA655EE62AD61DCAE0978FF358BDB2201F/
http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/867214686481941655/53567FA5FD95D135BD157812FF296097056C77A2/
http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/867214686481938352/BD142726F2D09B45A876CEF01E3EE7700FB112E4/

edit: and a close-up of my friend (he had the screenshot available). I wish I had a picture of my characters face.. I got this pretty gay dick tattoo on my forehead, that way when I have cars pinned to a corner, they're extra mad looking at my face through the windshield.

http://i.imgur.com/XSi52LO.jpg

Say it to your boss at work.

I see the word faggot as being simply hateful and agree that it has no place being used by players or anyone for that matter.

Rape on the other hand, I don't know. It has a real purposeful meaning and is not a derogatory word. So in the court of law is an adult going to 'show the judge where the bad man touched you', no they are going to say rape! It enforces the seriousness of the crime and has its purpose.

Sure while playing a game of TF2 it doesn't make a lot of sense, but we can't just shun people for using it. It's like saying we can't say 'alcoholic' or 'drug addiction'. It might be a serious topic, but that doesn't mean you have to react every time you hear it as if they are targeting you.

I'm genuinely surprised that you think anyone here is advocating condemnation of anyone. I'm not faulting anyone. No one is condemning anyone or asking anyone to say anything different. Where has anyone directly asked someone to not use these words? All I see are people expressing their opinion on the issue. My saying "I wish people wouldn't say it because that's dumb." is not me trying to censor or condemn anyone. I only wish people would realize that there words are hurting people, and their use of them is silly.

The mesr thing was a joke, thought it was pretty obvious but evidently not. I still don't understand why my example is 'wrong'. You said that it's wrong because someone 'could just as easily say faggot without expecting someone to get offended'. Do you even understand my point? People ARE offended. My example was chosen to illustrate the point that people being offended is legitimate. So far, your only assertions as to exactly WHY people shouldn't be offended are "adults should learn to distinguish between intent and literal meaning" and "it's not fun or interesting" or that offense is "meaningless and subjective and potentially limitless". My point is that people "choosing" (I like how you completely ignored that reactions to words are not choices) to be offended is a mode of expression in someone's viewpoint just like expressing yourself with "faggot" is in yours.

Now I think I only have one more thing to say on the subject, and that is this.
1. Your words have a reach farther than you realize. There have been some pretty convincing studies done on the effect of amount of usage on a word's meaning, and individual people using the word DOES have an impact on the decision making process of other's to use the word.
2. Words like faggot and raped have a very real a tangible negative consequence. In a country where homosexual suicide is near-rampant, how can anyone POSSIBLY suggest that words like "faggot" are meaningless or have lost a negative connotation for homosexuals?
3. Words pass out of the common vernacular all the time, I don't understand why you feel that people seizing to use "faggot" to the extent they do is a bad thing.
4. Hell, I don't even understand why you think people 'white knighting' the issue is a big deal. Do you have something against people speaking up for something they believe in? Furthermore, isn't that what you're doing? Aren't you playing a hero just as much as anyone else, defending people's "rights" to use language that is harmful?

I think this will probably be my last post on the issue, like I said before, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree.

You were not actually one of the posters I had in mind when I made that statement, but thank you for clarifying your original statement.

Nigga? or GAAAAAY?
Because one of those happens quite frequently.
All honesty, it's a mountain out of a mole hill. If you're offended by it, it's likely for a reason you should come to terms with; especially if it's not directed to you in an angry/derogatory manner.

Intent matters most of all, but I also think it's easy to hold your tongue if it happens to offend.

I also think it's stupid to flip out when someone happens to have that word in their vernacular. Just calmly ask not to use that word for X reason, and if they don't stop using that word then they're shitlords.

Sort of relevant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqiGWd0-0Os