I haven't seen anyone running Backup in prem except Josh this season. Assuming it was allowed for quite a long time, maybe it's not that OP? Conch was used much more often for example.

While I'm not against allowing many of the "bad" weapons in and instead only "blacklisting" the powerful items, Wrap assassin/Reserve shooter/Natascha/Jarate in your proposed list should definitely be blacklisted.

While were talking about S23, do you guys have any changes you'd like to see in the map list?

I'd probably cut second granary, but I don't know what'd I'd replace it with.

Why on earth do the euros allow the machina, not only in 6's, but also in HL? Blows my mind

why man, nobody is insane enough to run it, i tried using it for two days, other than pissing off sollies it has no actual purpose, i switched to boston basher the moment we had only me and our med alive and we couldnt build because i had a fucking cardboard with glass balls in my hands

its also allowed in ETF2L S24 whitelist, nobody even tried the thing in officials

Why on earth not?

Because it's literally an upgrade with no downside in 6's or Highlander

Reckoner maybe? Seemed to do well this season in ETF2L and I personally like the map a lot.

could the brass beast be unbanned now that the damage resistance is less dumb?

People are underestimating the power of noscopes. Also if it's an "upgrade with no downsides", why so few EU snipers actually use it?

i liked coalplant

It's completely free and potentially punishing. Spam it into the flank and peg the roamer before their team pushes and he can't come in anymore. Or you force someone back to get a pack/healed by the med. Just spam it every 10 seconds. The only "downside" to running it is that you can't help build uber with the basher.

I'm not saying its so OP that you should run it on both scouts full-time. Maybe not even on every map. But on flank-centric scouts on maps with more open flanks (Like say, sunshine second) it's completely free and very annoying.

I never liked reckoner and I think it has serious flaws. I would choose Coalplant, but I don't know how well received it would be.

Not being able to no-scope is hardly a downside. You can just click m2 and m1 right after each other and it's just about the same effect as a no-scope. The only true downside is the tracer when you want to stay hidden; you usually get 1-2 fewer shots from a weird angle with the machina. On top of that, any weapon that rewards lesser skill (bodyshots) should be rebalanced.

It merely rewards the snipers who can't aim more than it rewards good snipers (but it still favors everyone).

Ok the point of the original post was to try and get 1 universal white or black list that we play with and i thought that just flipping to the etf2l one would be easy. I guess not. But we should atleast come together as a community as see if we cant find a universal list to play with regardless of what the actual bans are.

http://whitelist.tf/6112 this +/- quickfix

I have to ask why the mangler ban? I dont think its glitched anymore and it is also decent if one team has turtled with engy on last because of the 4 second sentry disable.

i think the complaint is infinite ammo

infinite ammo + charge shot setting enemies on fire are the big reasons why I see the mangler shouldn't be allowed. Sentry guns aren't as big of a deal because you have a demoman and another soldier that can take the gun down rather easily.

Oh yeah the no ammo thing...

quick fix definitely a no
fuck the panic attack, phlog, back scatter, huo long & eureka effect I see no reason to allow these
imo it's more important that people come to a consensus about which rules et to use for tournaments (eu 30 min vs na 2 halves)

Solemn Vow!!!

No scope can really save you when retreating, +23 bodyshot damage on a full charge isn't that big of a deal (you still can't oneshot full hp Demo/Pyro or a fully buffed Scout), collat kills happen very rarely(I recall only one that happened on high level of TF2). You ever played with/against a Machina Sniper in 6s?
I'll repeat my question: if it's actually so unbalanced, why isn't it being abused by EU players (where it's allowed) just like it was with NA and Cozy Camper?

Also no one uses Cow Mangler because of a significantly longer first reload. You all call stuff unbalanced, but it doesn't look like you actually played with it.

unban flying guillotine, wrap assassin, they are not as good as their reliable counterparts and would hardly see any play after a week.

maybe unban caber, its not strong enough to one hit anything anymore or even really come close afaik but it would almost definitely get run over default, not sure if thats a good or bad thing.

unban frontier justice, widowmaker, it doesnt make any sense to ban non-disruptive engi weapons the class is bad enough as it is

unban hitmans heatmaker, like half the reason people play sniper is to full charge bodyshot meds coming through doorways, literally no one would ever use this weapon.

unban spy-cicle, what is even the point of having this banned

literally none of the weapons you named would impact 6's at all. panic attack is useless for reliability and hardly has better dpm than default in perfect situations, phlog has no airblast, back scatter is a worse scatter gun for 90% of the game, huo long heater is a minigun that does less damage, and eureka effect lets you teleport back to spawn when the only place anyone ever plays engi is when they are next to their spawn.

edit: oh also i agree that quick fix should be banned, that one definitely sucks

the splash only causes 5 damage max and doesnt cause bleeding;
the downside is not only being unable to build(also when only 1 scout remains alive when your whole team is dead its not necessarily gonna be the one with the basher, so you totally made up that not being a downside still, because the game is uber-centric) but boston-jumping is still an important thing, let it be gullywash dropdown reverse flank or some other cocky hero/sack jumps à la gf18

http://whitelist.tf/6114

After reading this thread it seems like nobody would have any major problems with this. Thoughts?

mad milk and sandman wtf lol? and unban iron bomber and cleaners carbine

Mad milk needs to die in a hole. Only meds should be able to heal. Also fuck jarate, same issue as SS minicrits have no damage falloff. Iron bomber is fine to be legal. I also think that mangler should be legal but meh.

Edit:missed sandman. Why. The. Fuck.

why is the panic attack banned?