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Updating cp_snakewater
181
#181
cp_snakewater
9 Frags +
azarunHi, chojje. You made a lot of bug fixing and polishing work for the map, and thats good. New snakewater is better than the old one, but compared to other maps new snakewater is not better than the old. I hope you understand the statement i try to make - you can try and polish, add shiny things to your map infinitely but if its not improving the gameplay then it doesnt matter at all.
Its a fact that the biggest problem with snakewater is the last point, and it is also the hardest last point to push in the entire mappool. And no one ever tried to fix it? I dont see any players come to offer possible solutions or you try to make last point any different (increasing capture taunt by few ms doesnt count), and thats why i have to ask you to try my shitty idea - basically the idea is:
http://i.imgur.com/lEy6NKu.png
to move spawn halfway closer to point (so you can reach the spawn door in 1 rocket jump from lobby -> to make attacking/sacking easier) and leave the rest of spawn the same (to make it bigger -> to punish spawn switch even more) and replace truck with smaller object (to block sideline from left lobby).
Im not asking you to do exactly this, but i ask you to look into last point problem some more. I threw this idea just beacuse no one tries to make the difference.

I came into this with the goal of fixing bugs and streamlining the map; not reworking it completely. Having tried a couple of gameplay changes during these iterations, I've immediately found that any tiny change means a massive butterfly effect of unexpected gameplay alterations. Considering this, I feel it's better to keep the map we've all gotten to know, with its perks and quirks. The last point may be problematic, but it is also different and I think it's an interesting aspect of the map.

Hopefully I'll be able to take what I've learned in Snakewater to another level in my next map, where I'm more free to experiment with a clean slate.

[quote=azarun]Hi, chojje. You made a lot of bug fixing and polishing work for the map, and thats good. New snakewater is better than the old one, but compared to other maps new snakewater is not better than the old. I hope you understand the statement i try to make - you can try and polish, add shiny things to your map infinitely but if its not improving the gameplay then it doesnt matter at all.
Its a fact that the biggest problem with snakewater is the last point, and it is also the hardest last point to push in the entire mappool. And no one ever tried to fix it? I dont see any players come to offer possible solutions or you try to make last point any different (increasing capture taunt by few ms doesnt count), and thats why i have to ask you to try my shitty idea - basically the idea is:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/lEy6NKu.png[/img]
to move spawn halfway closer to point (so you can reach the spawn door in 1 rocket jump from lobby -> to make attacking/sacking easier) and leave the rest of spawn the same (to make it bigger -> to punish spawn switch even more) and replace truck with smaller object (to block sideline from left lobby).
Im not asking you to do exactly this, but i ask you to look into last point problem some more. I threw this idea just beacuse no one tries to make the difference.[/quote]

I came into this with the goal of fixing bugs and streamlining the map; not reworking it completely. Having tried a couple of gameplay changes during these iterations, I've immediately found that any tiny change means a massive butterfly effect of unexpected gameplay alterations. Considering this, I feel it's better to keep the map we've all gotten to know, with its perks and quirks. The last point may be problematic, but it is also different and I think it's an interesting aspect of the map.

Hopefully I'll be able to take what I've learned in Snakewater to another level in my next map, where I'm more free to experiment with a clean slate.
182
#182
-5 Frags +
Any tiny change means a massive butterfly effect of unexpected gameplay alterations.

In the end there can only be 2 effects: 1) last point is harder to cap, 2) last point is easier to cap
If its the first, then you revert it back. If its second, congratulations, you did it.

[quote] Any tiny change means a massive butterfly effect of unexpected gameplay alterations.[/quote]
In the end there can only be 2 effects: 1) last point is harder to cap, 2) last point is easier to cap
If its the first, then you revert it back. If its second, congratulations, you did it.
183
#183
4 Frags +
azarunlast is hard to push.

i think expanding the spawns to stretch out further would be interesting. however, speaking from the perspective of attacking last and being in lobby: i see the majority of tippy top invite/prem teams just blindly use through the right shutter door and it makes me wince. you can gain a lot of ground, without immediately using, by walking in left side and/or getting through dropdown and taking some of that right side control before you use. of course, lower is a viable option too but puts you on low ground. additionally, you can pressure left side with people and the beam and work a sacrifice through basically any entrance (even the same left side). i think it's a great map and people may just need to shift the way they approach pushing, or sacrificing, into last. i don't believe this map has any problem, relative to other maps in the competitive rotation, that make stalemates inherently worse.

[quote=azarun]last is hard to push.[/quote]

i think expanding the spawns to stretch out further would be interesting. however, speaking from the perspective of attacking last and being in lobby: i see the majority of tippy top invite/prem teams just blindly use through the right shutter door and it makes me wince. you can gain a lot of ground, without immediately using, by walking in left side and/or getting through dropdown and taking some of that right side control before you use. of course, lower is a viable option too but puts you on low ground. additionally, you can pressure left side with people and the beam and work a sacrifice through basically any entrance (even the same left side). i think it's a great map and people may just need to shift the way they approach pushing, or sacrificing, into last. i don't believe this map has any problem, relative to other maps in the competitive rotation, that make stalemates inherently worse.
184
#184
-1 Frags +
joddtop invite/prem teams just blindly use through

They use it only because there is always an unseen sniper that never misses a shot on an exposed medic.

[quote=jodd]top invite/prem teams just blindly use through[/quote]
They use it only because there is always an unseen sniper that never misses a shot on an exposed medic.
185
#185
3 Frags +

I think its the worst idea ever to move the spawns forward, instead of the medic holding infront of spawn you can literally have your medic in spawn, the med was more forward because thats where you hold, if you move spawn forward you just bring spawn closer to where you hold, which means your med just stays in spawn so its impossible to sack.

I think its the worst idea ever to move the spawns forward, instead of the medic holding infront of spawn you can literally have your medic in spawn, the med was more forward because thats where you hold, if you move spawn forward you just bring spawn closer to where you hold, which means your med just stays in spawn so its impossible to sack.
186
#186
4 Frags +
azarun Any tiny change means a massive butterfly effect of unexpected gameplay alterations.In the end there can only be 2 effects: 1) last point is harder to cap, 2) last point is easier to cap
If its the first, then you revert it back. If its second, congratulations, you did it.

Don't forget rollouts. Not just to mid either, being able to go spawn to lobby in one jump affects defending/attacking your own second too.

[quote=azarun][quote] Any tiny change means a massive butterfly effect of unexpected gameplay alterations.[/quote]
In the end there can only be 2 effects: 1) last point is harder to cap, 2) last point is easier to cap
If its the first, then you revert it back. If its second, congratulations, you did it.[/quote]

Don't forget rollouts. Not just to mid either, being able to go spawn to lobby in one jump affects defending/attacking your own second too.
187
#187
3 Frags +

And still no one got my point - yes, maybe my idea is bad, but why no one else tries to improve last point/make suggestions and instead whines about last being hard to cap or farms upfrags on posts with bad ideas?

And still no one got my point - yes, maybe my idea is bad, but why no one else tries to improve last point/make suggestions and instead whines about last being hard to cap or farms upfrags on posts with bad ideas?
188
#188
-6 Frags +
azarunAnd still no one got my point - yes, maybe my idea is bad, but why no one else tries to improve last point/make suggestions and instead whines about last being hard to cap or farms upfrags on posts with bad ideas?

I havent seen anyone whine about snake last hard to cap?

[quote=azarun]And still no one got my point - yes, maybe my idea is bad, but why no one else tries to improve last point/make suggestions and instead whines about last being hard to cap or farms upfrags on posts with bad ideas?[/quote]

I havent seen anyone whine about snake last hard to cap?
189
#189
5 Frags +
DamnEasyazarunAnd still no one got my point - yes, maybe my idea is bad, but why no one else tries to improve last point/make suggestions and instead whines about last being hard to cap or farms upfrags on posts with bad ideas?
I havent seen anyone whine about snake last hard to cap?

You mean you don't stalemate on snake last for excessive amounts of time because of how a sentry, heavy and sniper in such a large area with spawn so close to holding position make it suck to create an advantage?

[quote=DamnEasy][quote=azarun]And still no one got my point - yes, maybe my idea is bad, but why no one else tries to improve last point/make suggestions and instead whines about last being hard to cap or farms upfrags on posts with bad ideas?[/quote]

I havent seen anyone whine about snake last hard to cap?[/quote]


You mean you don't stalemate on snake last for excessive amounts of time because of how a sentry, heavy and sniper in such a large area with spawn so close to holding position make it suck to create an advantage?
190
#190
-4 Frags +
BrimstoneDamnEasyazarunAnd still no one got my point - yes, maybe my idea is bad, but why no one else tries to improve last point/make suggestions and instead whines about last being hard to cap or farms upfrags on posts with bad ideas?
I havent seen anyone whine about snake last hard to cap?

You mean you don't stalemate on snake last for excessive amounts of time because of how a sentry, heavy and sniper in such a large area with spawn so close to holding position make it suck to create an advantage?

Not if you know how to push

[quote=Brimstone][quote=DamnEasy][quote=azarun]And still no one got my point - yes, maybe my idea is bad, but why no one else tries to improve last point/make suggestions and instead whines about last being hard to cap or farms upfrags on posts with bad ideas?[/quote]

I havent seen anyone whine about snake last hard to cap?[/quote]


You mean you don't stalemate on snake last for excessive amounts of time because of how a sentry, heavy and sniper in such a large area with spawn so close to holding position make it suck to create an advantage?[/quote]

Not if you know how to push
191
#191
-2 Frags +

People thought adding the extra space on the truck-side of last was a good decision, giving the attackers more room to fight. Why not just try something similar on the shutter-side and give the attackers more room and more cover?

http://i.imgur.com/ggT6POu.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/WWQA0bM.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Ib5nHvg.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/0H3DVFw.jpg

People thought adding the extra space on the truck-side of last was a good decision, giving the attackers more room to fight. Why not just try something similar on the shutter-side and give the attackers more room and more cover?

[img]http://i.imgur.com/ggT6POu.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i.imgur.com/WWQA0bM.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i.imgur.com/Ib5nHvg.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i.imgur.com/0H3DVFw.jpg[/img]
192
#192
35 Frags +
DamnEasyBrimstoneDamnEasyazarunAnd still no one got my point - yes, maybe my idea is bad, but why no one else tries to improve last point/make suggestions and instead whines about last being hard to cap or farms upfrags on posts with bad ideas?
I havent seen anyone whine about snake last hard to cap?

You mean you don't stalemate on snake last for excessive amounts of time because of how a sentry, heavy and sniper in such a large area with spawn so close to holding position make it suck to create an advantage?

Not if you know how to push

can you teach us how

[quote=DamnEasy][quote=Brimstone][quote=DamnEasy][quote=azarun]And still no one got my point - yes, maybe my idea is bad, but why no one else tries to improve last point/make suggestions and instead whines about last being hard to cap or farms upfrags on posts with bad ideas?[/quote]

I havent seen anyone whine about snake last hard to cap?[/quote]


You mean you don't stalemate on snake last for excessive amounts of time because of how a sentry, heavy and sniper in such a large area with spawn so close to holding position make it suck to create an advantage?[/quote]

Not if you know how to push[/quote]
can you teach us how
193
#193
7 Frags +

http://i.imgur.com/vbLtdaD.png

You can stand atop the upper level, red kitchen only.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/vbLtdaD.png[/img]

You can stand atop the upper level, red kitchen only.
194
#194
cp_snakewater
23 Frags +

Hey guys,

Updated to u10: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2447457/cp_snakewater_u10.bsp

Changelog u10:

Major:

* Returned half of the canopy at the saw-mid connector
* Fixed hiding spot in kitchen

Minor:

* Fixed stickies on forward spawn door
* Removed some clutter
* Fixed some clipping bugs
* Cleaned up some details
* Returned the ledge beneath the window
* Added cheese
* Commemorated a memorable moment
* Added appropriate amount of snakies

Unless some gamebreaking bug appears this is likely to be the final updated version.

It seems like the canopy change near saw has been controversial and problematic. This just goes to show how tiny changes can have huge impact on the map flow!

Thanks for all your help, and please be sure to comment on this version if it is to be the final one.

Cheers,
chojje

Hey guys,

[size=16]Updated to u10: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2447457/cp_snakewater_u10.bsp[/size]

[u]Changelog u10:

Major:[/u]

* Returned half of the canopy at the saw-mid connector
* Fixed hiding spot in kitchen

[u]Minor:[/u]

* Fixed stickies on forward spawn door
* Removed some clutter
* Fixed some clipping bugs
* Cleaned up some details
* Returned the ledge beneath the window
* Added cheese
* Commemorated a memorable moment
* Added appropriate amount of snakies

Unless some gamebreaking bug appears this is likely to be the final updated version.

It seems like the canopy change near saw has been controversial and problematic. This just goes to show how tiny changes can have huge impact on the map flow!

Thanks for all your help, and please be sure to comment on this version if it is to be the final one.

Cheers,
chojje
195
#195
6 Frags +
chojje* Returned the ledge beneath the window
* Added cheese

god bless

[quote=chojje]
* Returned the ledge beneath the window
* Added cheese
[/quote]

god bless
196
#196
4 Frags +

Hey chojje! I was just running around your map trying to find some things that could improve and I only found these:

http://i.imgur.com/dcSFdCe.jpg

This clip brush is sticking out on the right side. I would cut it so as shown by the yellow lines
Or what do u guys think?

http://i.imgur.com/4io757G.jpg

This one is a lot less important. You can walk through this wooden beam on the stairs under the SECOND point. It's nothing major but for more realisnm I would add a clip/blockbullets brush there

Thanks for all your work, the community and I appreciate it!!

Hey chojje! I was just running around your map trying to find some things that could improve and I only found these:

[img]http://i.imgur.com/dcSFdCe.jpg[/img]
This clip brush is sticking out on the right side. I would cut it so as shown by the yellow lines
Or what do u guys think?

[img]http://i.imgur.com/4io757G.jpg[/img]
This one is a lot less important. You can walk through this wooden beam on the stairs under the SECOND point. It's nothing major but for more realisnm I would add a clip/blockbullets brush there


Thanks for all your work, the community and I appreciate it!!
197
#197
51 Frags +
chojje* Commemorated a memorable moment

Its the harbleu 1v2 for those wondering

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/487892324750977673/B6CF9F42B3D3760513D36C46DC938FCE2DC9D4C3/

[quote=chojje]
* Commemorated a memorable moment[/quote]
Its the harbleu 1v2 for those wondering
[img]http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/487892324750977673/B6CF9F42B3D3760513D36C46DC938FCE2DC9D4C3/[/img]
198
#198
30 Frags +
chojje* Added appropriate amount of snakies

http://i.imgur.com/wWgOqfu.png

[quote=chojje]
* Added appropriate amount of snakies[/quote]

[img]http://i.imgur.com/wWgOqfu.png[/img]
199
#199
cp_snakewater
7 Frags +
Warichojje* Added appropriate amount of snakies
http://i.imgur.com/wWgOqfu.png

Have a look under mid :))

[quote=Wari][quote=chojje]
* Added appropriate amount of snakies[/quote]

[img]http://i.imgur.com/wWgOqfu.png[/img][/quote]

Have a look under mid :))
200
#200
cp_snakewater
10 Frags +
BumFreezechojje* Commemorated a memorable momentIts the harbleu 1v2 for those wondering
http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/487892324750977673/B6CF9F42B3D3760513D36C46DC938FCE2DC9D4C3/

Indeed!

Huge thanks to uberchain, DiscoSwan and The Scurvy Orange for the poster art, and JackyLegs for the initiative!

[quote=BumFreeze][quote=chojje]
* Commemorated a memorable moment[/quote]
Its the harbleu 1v2 for those wondering
[img]http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/487892324750977673/B6CF9F42B3D3760513D36C46DC938FCE2DC9D4C3/[/img][/quote]


Indeed!

Huge thanks to uberchain, DiscoSwan and The Scurvy Orange for the poster art, and JackyLegs for the initiative!
201
#201
22 Frags +
chojjeBumFreezechojje* Commemorated a memorable momentIts the harbleu 1v2 for those wondering
http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/487892324750977673/B6CF9F42B3D3760513D36C46DC938FCE2DC9D4C3/
Indeed!

Huge thanks to uberchain, DiscoSwan and The Scurvy Orange for the poster art, and JackyLegs for the initiative!

I can't thank you and JackyLegs enough for reaching out to me about this project, as well as Kichizone/DiscoSwan & Scurvy Orange for carrying this all the way to the end when I couldn't. It was an honour to work with all these people. This was the initial pose we pictured with the criteria of a Medic holding an Ubersaw + Crossbow and two Scout skulls:

http://i.imgur.com/fL5gqV4.png

We realized how cliche the pose was, so we scrapped it. At this time my wrists were getting fucked, so I brought on Swan and Scurvy (who helped with UNIreFORM jerseys & SFM back in LANs). Swan gave me 2 concepts; chojje and JackyLegs liked the 1st one, so we threw the concept to Scurvy to pose in Source Filmmaker and passed it back to Swan to paintover & filter.

http://i.imgur.com/sDouPf2.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/b3jwcOH.png

I really enjoy the idea of having the CS:GO graffiti movement in the form of TF2 propaganda. I remember JackyLegs showing me LG's Coldzera graffiti video, which was what I showed to Swan & Scurvy when I brought them on, and we thought it was the coolest thing, to translate that sort of creative monument-building over to TF2 in the form of propaganda posters. I'd love to see more! Too bad some authors of the maps we run in rotation have AFK'd for years now, I had a sketch of Harb's Gullywash 2nd crater lying around:

http://i.imgur.com/Z4b7gDn.png

[quote=chojje][quote=BumFreeze][quote=chojje]
* Commemorated a memorable moment[/quote]
Its the harbleu 1v2 for those wondering
[img]http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/487892324750977673/B6CF9F42B3D3760513D36C46DC938FCE2DC9D4C3/[/img][/quote]
Indeed!

Huge thanks to uberchain, DiscoSwan and The Scurvy Orange for the poster art, and JackyLegs for the initiative![/quote]
I can't thank you and JackyLegs enough for reaching out to me about this project, as well as Kichizone/DiscoSwan & Scurvy Orange for carrying this all the way to the end when I couldn't. It was an honour to work with all these people. This was the initial pose we pictured with the criteria of a Medic holding an Ubersaw + Crossbow and two Scout skulls:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/fL5gqV4.png[/img]We realized how cliche the pose was, so we scrapped it. At this time my wrists were getting fucked, so I brought on Swan and Scurvy (who helped with UNIreFORM jerseys & SFM back in LANs). Swan gave me 2 concepts; chojje and JackyLegs liked the 1st one, so we threw the concept to Scurvy to pose in Source Filmmaker and passed it back to Swan to paintover & filter.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/sDouPf2.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/b3jwcOH.png[/img]I really enjoy the idea of having the CS:GO graffiti movement in the form of TF2 propaganda. I remember JackyLegs showing me [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQIj6tnJeTQ]LG's Coldzera graffiti video[/url], which was what I showed to Swan & Scurvy when I brought them on, and we thought it was the coolest thing, to translate that sort of creative monument-building over to TF2 in the form of propaganda posters. I'd love to see more! Too bad some authors of the maps we run in rotation have AFK'd for years now, I had a sketch of Harb's Gullywash 2nd crater lying around:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/Z4b7gDn.png[/img]
202
#202
5 Frags +

memorable moment: https://youtu.be/KpDRCs78gqE?t=2620

memorable moment: https://youtu.be/KpDRCs78gqE?t=2620
203
#203
6 Frags +

http://imgur.com/a/G5FCV
so we using this in esea?

http://imgur.com/a/G5FCV
so we using this in esea?
204
#204
cp_snakewater
2 Frags +
Porubahttp://imgur.com/a/G5FCV
so we using this in esea?

Is that roof awning solid? Which version?

[quote=Poruba]http://imgur.com/a/G5FCV
so we using this in esea?[/quote]

Is that roof awning solid? Which version?
205
#205
2 Frags +
chojjePorubahttp://imgur.com/a/G5FCV
so we using this in esea?

Is that roof awning solid? Which version?

The version being used in esea is _u8

[quote=chojje][quote=Poruba]http://imgur.com/a/G5FCV
so we using this in esea?[/quote]

Is that roof awning solid? Which version?[/quote]
The version being used in esea is _u8
206
#206
12 Frags +

The entire edge of the roof above the window is solid (it's not an issue on the other side though, only here). This was in u8, the version being used in ESEA this week.

http://i.imgur.com/hGzZUvs.jpg

The entire edge of the roof above the window is solid (it's not an issue on the other side though, only here). This was in u8, the version being used in ESEA this week.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/hGzZUvs.jpg[/img]
207
#207
0 Frags +

ESEA

https://static-cdn.jtvnw.net/emoticons/v1/58765/3.0

ESEA
[img]https://static-cdn.jtvnw.net/emoticons/v1/58765/3.0[/img]
208
#208
3 Frags +

asd... I've reported that bug more then 1 month ago (before ESEA maps were annunced). It would have been enough if they checked the actual thread of the maps they want to add to the map pool :v

asd... I've reported that bug more then 1 month ago (before ESEA maps were annunced). It would have been enough if they checked the actual thread of the maps they want to add to the map pool :v
209
#209
cp_snakewater
10 Frags +

I wasn't contacted by admins of either ESEA or ETF2L admins to confirm that u8 was a stable version ready for tournament use. Hence these problems.

I would suggest updating the map pool to u10, as the gameplay changes are rather small and it's 99% sure to be bug free.

I wasn't contacted by admins of either ESEA or ETF2L admins to confirm that u8 was a stable version ready for tournament use. Hence these problems.

I would suggest updating the map pool to u10, as the gameplay changes are rather small and it's 99% sure to be bug free.
210
#210
8 Frags +

Would you mind also changing the type of the shutter doors on the last point? The current ones are transparent when used with transparent viewmodels for weapons and while having viewmodels off, and to my knowledge Snakewater is the only map from the map pool that has glitched shutter doors like this (also Reckoner as well) when people use transparent viewmodels.
Here's an example gallery of the transparent viewmodel use, along with a sniper sightline which I find the shutter bug abusable, http://imgur.com/a/dEXpO

The reason why I did put in the Process last shutters in there as well is to give an example of what you could change the shutter doors to like on Snakewater, as on Process they aren't transparent anymore no matter if you are scoped in or if you have the viewmodels off.

Also I guess it's worth noting that for ETF2L the most recent version of Snakewater will be used for playoffs, whether was that u10 or any other version that gets released past this date. And again, thanks for your hard work on updating the map, chojje!

Would you mind also changing the type of the shutter doors on the last point? The current ones are transparent when used with transparent viewmodels for weapons and while having viewmodels off, and to my knowledge Snakewater is the only map from the map pool that has glitched shutter doors like this (also Reckoner as well) when people use transparent viewmodels.
Here's an example gallery of the transparent viewmodel use, along with a sniper sightline which I find the shutter bug abusable, http://imgur.com/a/dEXpO

The reason why I did put in the Process last shutters in there as well is to give an example of what you could change the shutter doors to like on Snakewater, as on Process they aren't transparent anymore no matter if you are scoped in or if you have the viewmodels off.

Also I guess it's worth noting that for ETF2L the most recent version of Snakewater will be used for playoffs, whether was that u10 or any other version that gets released past this date. And again, thanks for your hard work on updating the map, chojje!
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