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Valve and Competitive TF2
posted in News
571
#571
4 Frags +
DougThe problem with lack of class limits is that the composition we are used to in 6s isn't the most powerfull one if you remove class restrictions. We will be seing teams with 2 medics, 3 soldiers, 2 demos... which are too strong and might remove a lot of the fun we have in 6s. So you can say bye bye to our meta and welcome to the double-ubers-teams-that-will-make-the-game-not-fun overlords.

I like the idea of limiting 2 of each offensive classes and 1 of each support and defensive classes.

I'm not trying to theory craft what the strongest composition would be without class limits (though I am still inclined to believe that, at least in the current world of tf2, scouts are too strong for good teams to cut them in favor of another soldier or even another medic. I've no doubt that without class limits we would see more dynamic class changing, the creation of pocket strats that use unexpected combinations, and things of that nature. But at the end of the day, I think the current spread is likely the most ideal composition you could have for a generalist role).

At the end of the day, valve is going to want simple and easy to understand. Creating a whole system of coded logic around class limits, and when/how often you can off class. That would be a nightmare to code, and worse it would create potential obstacles to entry for new players.

I can't pretend to know what valve would do. But speaking as a programmer I could not imagine anything but the most simplistic of class limits/weapon bans making it into the first iterations of the match making system. After that, maybe more complexity can be added if the system proves ineffective, or if the meta that evolves is too static/stalemate-y to create good, interesting games.

[quote=Doug]The problem with lack of class limits is that the composition we are used to in 6s isn't the most powerfull one if you remove class restrictions. We will be seing teams with 2 medics, 3 soldiers, 2 demos... which are too strong and might remove a lot of the fun we have in 6s. So you can say bye bye to our meta and welcome to the double-ubers-teams-that-will-make-the-game-not-fun overlords.

I like the idea of limiting 2 of each offensive classes and 1 of each support and defensive classes.[/quote]

I'm not trying to theory craft what the strongest composition would be without class limits (though I am still inclined to believe that, at least in the current world of tf2, scouts are too strong for good teams to cut them in favor of another soldier or even another medic. I've no doubt that without class limits we would see more dynamic class changing, the creation of pocket strats that use unexpected combinations, and things of that nature. But at the end of the day, I think the current spread is likely the most ideal composition you could have for a generalist role).

At the end of the day, valve is going to want simple and easy to understand. Creating a whole system of coded logic around class limits, and when/how often you can off class. That would be a nightmare to code, and worse it would create potential obstacles to entry for new players.

I can't pretend to know what valve would do. But speaking as a programmer I could not imagine anything but the most simplistic of class limits/weapon bans making it into the first iterations of the match making system. After that, maybe more complexity can be added if the system proves ineffective, or if the meta that evolves is too static/stalemate-y to create good, interesting games.
572
#572
4 Frags +

6 demos. It's over

6 demos. It's over
573
#573
3 Frags +

the worst rational case is that we get classlimits of 2 across the board

if they're even above that, then... god help us all

the worst rational case is that we get classlimits of 2 across the board

if they're even above that, then... god help us all
574
#574
7 Frags +

One of the things I'm most excited about and that really hasn't been mentioned, that with the new match making we'll probably see a bunch of either new maps or map improvements. Keep in mind cp_gorge, ctf_turbine, ctf_2fort, ctf_doublecross, cp_foundry and other maps that weren't really suited for competitive before might get completely reworked.

One of the things I'm most excited about and that really hasn't been mentioned, that with the new match making we'll probably see a bunch of either new maps or map improvements. Keep in mind cp_gorge, ctf_turbine, ctf_2fort, ctf_doublecross, cp_foundry and other maps that weren't really suited for competitive before might get completely reworked.
575
#575
3 Frags +
_In_Sanity-snip-

The biggest problem I believe we would face is 2 medics. A team would be able to get 2 ~6 seconds uber and push with 4 invulnerable combat classes. That would make pushing broken and 6s not fun.

Also, 2 or more demomen can shutdown an entire area with traps.

ComangliaOne of the things I'm most excited about and that really hasn't been mentioned, that with the new match making we'll probably see a bunch of either new maps or map improvements. Keep in mind cp_gorge, ctf_turbine, ctf_2fort, ctf_doublecross, cp_foundry and other maps that weren't really suited for competitive before might get completely reworked.

If you use CSGO as an example, Valve realizes people will only play de_ maps in competitive, so even though you are able to play cs_ maps in competitive matchmaking, they don't care if the maps are good for that mode. They don't even care to fix some de_ maps that aren't played in leagues (I'm looking at you, Aztec).

One thing I believe they could do is make viaduct pro the official one.

[quote=_In_Sanity]-snip-[/quote]
The biggest problem I believe we would face is 2 medics. A team would be able to get 2 ~6 seconds uber and push with 4 invulnerable combat classes. That would make pushing broken and 6s not fun.

Also, 2 or more demomen can shutdown an entire area with traps.

[quote=Comanglia]One of the things I'm most excited about and that really hasn't been mentioned, that with the new match making we'll probably see a bunch of either new maps or map improvements. Keep in mind cp_gorge, ctf_turbine, ctf_2fort, ctf_doublecross, cp_foundry and other maps that weren't really suited for competitive before might get completely reworked.[/quote]
If you use CSGO as an example, Valve realizes people will only play de_ maps in competitive, so even though you are able to play cs_ maps in competitive matchmaking, they don't care if the maps are good for that mode. They don't even care to fix some de_ maps that aren't played in leagues (I'm looking at you, [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezAGj_Mwk5E]Aztec[/url]).

One thing I believe they could do is make viaduct pro the official one.
576
#576
2 Frags +
DougComangliaOne of the things I'm most excited about and that really hasn't been mentioned, that with the new match making we'll probably see a bunch of either new maps or map improvements. Keep in mind cp_gorge, ctf_turbine, ctf_2fort, ctf_doublecross, cp_foundry and other maps that weren't really suited for competitive before might get completely reworked.If you use CSGO as an example, Valve realizes people will only play de_ maps in competitive, so even though you are able to play cs_ maps in competitive matchmaking, they don't care if the maps are good for that mode. They don't even care to fix some de_ maps that aren't played in leagues (I'm looking at you, Aztec).

One thing I believe they could do is make viaduct pro the official one.

Right but they do also update antiquated maps that where in competitive example de_train
which ctf_2fort, ctf_turbine, cp_gravelpit do meet that criteria. I doubt ctf_2fort could be changed to be enjoyable on a competitive level but turbine has potential. I already enjoy gravelpit so I think that one is fairly likely. Also yukon, coldfront, etc.

[quote=Doug]
[quote=Comanglia]One of the things I'm most excited about and that really hasn't been mentioned, that with the new match making we'll probably see a bunch of either new maps or map improvements. Keep in mind cp_gorge, ctf_turbine, ctf_2fort, ctf_doublecross, cp_foundry and other maps that weren't really suited for competitive before might get completely reworked.[/quote]
If you use CSGO as an example, Valve realizes people will only play de_ maps in competitive, so even though you are able to play cs_ maps in competitive matchmaking, they don't care if the maps are good for that mode. They don't even care to fix some de_ maps that aren't played in leagues (I'm looking at you, [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezAGj_Mwk5E]Aztec[/url]).

One thing I believe they could do is make viaduct pro the official one.[/quote]

Right but they do also update antiquated maps that where in competitive example de_train
which ctf_2fort, ctf_turbine, cp_gravelpit do meet that criteria. I doubt ctf_2fort could be changed to be enjoyable on a competitive level but turbine has potential. I already enjoy gravelpit so I think that one is fairly likely. Also yukon, coldfront, etc.
577
#577
4 Frags +
Doug_In_Sanity-snip-The biggest problem I believe we would face is 2 medics. A team would be able to get 2 ~6 seconds uber and push with 4 invulnerable combat classes. That would make pushing broken and 6s not fun.

Also, 2 or more demomen can shutdown an entire area with traps.

I think the point that makes me doubt that these kind of strats would be as effective as people think (at least at higher levels... in the lower ranks I expect teams with multiple medics and heavies would be stupidly strong... but that would not last as the average skill of players increases through the ranks) is that you aren't just adding this additional medic or demo, you are removing one of the other classes as well.

Sure a second medic would be strong in terms of more uber potential and increased heals. But the extra medic is also removing a lot of mobility and damage potential. Meaning that if the other team is able to effectively focus down players during off uber pushes, then they would be at a fairly big advantage. Additionally you would be losing the versatility of the more expendable classes... sending in a scout or soldier is a lot less effective if you don't have another one available.

Same for a second demo. You are gaining more area control (which a sniper can already give you more easily than another set of sticky traps) and more general damage. But it is costing you in terms of 1v1 engagements which the demo is terrible at.

Then there is the question of what you trade. Do you remove the roamer, and create the need for more heals across the entire team (roamer is viable because of the ability to self sustain, a second demo would not be so heal independent). Or do you drop a scout, and lose the ability to capitalize on the increased damage output.

I don't for a moment think that we will not see these kinds of compositions come out for specific pushes or holds. And I expect as they are used valve will make adjustments (either to the class or to the format) that help to balance things out. But I do think that in terms of general usefulness these compositions are going to bring weaknesses that can be exploited... and that is sort of what makes a competitive game interesting. It would stop being a matter of who plays the 2 scouts, 2 soldiers, 1 demo, and 1 medic style of tf2 better. We've seen that game, and the answer is Froyo (and has been for a very long time). And it would start becoming a question of which team can more quickly recognize and effectively exploit weaknesses in the other team.

So long as every class still has a counter, and that counter remains viable, I think that the game will remain interesting and dynamic.

[quote=Doug][quote=_In_Sanity]-snip-[/quote]
The biggest problem I believe we would face is 2 medics. A team would be able to get 2 ~6 seconds uber and push with 4 invulnerable combat classes. That would make pushing broken and 6s not fun.

Also, 2 or more demomen can shutdown an entire area with traps.[/quote]

I think the point that makes me doubt that these kind of strats would be as effective as people think (at least at higher levels... in the lower ranks I expect teams with multiple medics and heavies would be stupidly strong... but that would not last as the average skill of players increases through the ranks) is that you aren't just adding this additional medic or demo, you are removing one of the other classes as well.

Sure a second medic would be strong in terms of more uber potential and increased heals. But the extra medic is also removing a lot of mobility and damage potential. Meaning that if the other team is able to effectively focus down players during off uber pushes, then they would be at a fairly big advantage. Additionally you would be losing the versatility of the more expendable classes... sending in a scout or soldier is a lot less effective if you don't have another one available.

Same for a second demo. You are gaining more area control (which a sniper can already give you more easily than another set of sticky traps) and more general damage. But it is costing you in terms of 1v1 engagements which the demo is terrible at.

Then there is the question of what you trade. Do you remove the roamer, and create the need for more heals across the entire team (roamer is viable because of the ability to self sustain, a second demo would not be so heal independent). Or do you drop a scout, and lose the ability to capitalize on the increased damage output.

I don't for a moment think that we will not see these kinds of compositions come out for specific pushes or holds. And I expect as they are used valve will make adjustments (either to the class or to the format) that help to balance things out. But I do think that in terms of general usefulness these compositions are going to bring weaknesses that can be exploited... and that is sort of what makes a competitive game interesting. It would stop being a matter of who plays the 2 scouts, 2 soldiers, 1 demo, and 1 medic style of tf2 better. We've seen that game, and the answer is Froyo (and has been for a very long time). And it would start becoming a question of which team can more quickly recognize and effectively exploit weaknesses in the other team.

So long as every class still has a counter, and that counter remains viable, I think that the game will remain interesting and dynamic.
578
#578
1 Frags +

Apparently Valve is going to focus on 5cp maps(?)

I asked B4nny during a stream, that was his reply.
No idea what was discussed about maps at Valve though. I don't remember it being brought up during Fully Charged.
I wouldn't mind koth maps being included.
I personally don't like the idea of ctf and attack/defend in comp though.

Apparently Valve is going to focus on 5cp maps(?)

I asked B4nny during a stream, that was his reply.
No idea what was discussed about maps at Valve though. I don't remember it being brought up during Fully Charged.
I wouldn't mind koth maps being included.
I personally don't like the idea of ctf and attack/defend in comp though.
579
#579
26 Frags +

Looks like the new voice codec in CSGO has almost no delay, so if they implement that we probably don't need to worry about in game voice being shitty

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S52VAZEYtgs

Looks like the new voice codec in CSGO has almost no delay, so if they implement that we probably don't need to worry about in game voice being shitty

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S52VAZEYtgs[/youtube]
580
#580
7 Frags +

YES! :D

YES! :D
581
#581
0 Frags +

Sort of unrelated question: when's i55?

Sort of unrelated question: when's i55?
582
#582
5 Frags +
aimanfireSort of unrelated question: when's i55?

August 28-30th, google is your friend

[quote=aimanfire]Sort of unrelated question: when's i55?[/quote]

August 28-30th, google is your friend
583
#583
1 Frags +

I second everything _In_Sanity says, but I have to add, again, only time will tell the best meta if everything is truly open.

I second everything _In_Sanity says, but I have to add, again, only time will tell the best meta if everything is truly open.
584
#584
-42 Frags +

Celebrate ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

Celebrate ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
585
#585
8 Frags +

Does that mean TF2GAMES is dead now?

Does that mean TF2GAMES is dead now?
586
#586
0 Frags +

Ogreasmic.

Ogreasmic.
587
#587
8 Frags +
deetrLooks like the new voice codec in CSGO has almost no delay, so if they implement that we probably don't need to worry about in game voice being shitty

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S52VAZEYtgs

dude that codec is so good, it literally sounds like mumble/teamspeak

[quote=deetr]Looks like the new voice codec in CSGO has almost no delay, so if they implement that we probably don't need to worry about in game voice being shitty

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S52VAZEYtgs[/youtube][/quote]


dude that codec is so good, it literally sounds like mumble/teamspeak
588
#588
-43 Frags +

Has anyone checked out the hud called budhud? It might have leaked something of the competitive update and that they're gonna have a 6v6 and 9v9 (highlander) leaderboard, along with a MvM-like menu where you choose something. BTW, they might make people pay for the competitive scene! :(. I don't have any pictures of the menu, but I'll try to get some, but I do have the hud here if you want to put it on TF2 and see it for yourself: http://www.teamfortress.tv/20214/budhud

Has anyone checked out the hud called budhud? It might have leaked something of the competitive update and that they're gonna have a 6v6 and 9v9 (highlander) leaderboard, along with a MvM-like menu where you choose something. BTW, they might make people pay for the competitive scene! :(. I don't have any pictures of the menu, but I'll try to get some, but I do have the hud here if you want to put it on TF2 and see it for yourself: http://www.teamfortress.tv/20214/budhud
589
#589
11 Frags +

We've already had some discussion threads on that, Unit. It's old news to most of us, and it has nothing to do with budhud.

We've already had some discussion threads on that, Unit. It's old news to most of us, and it has nothing to do with budhud.
590
#590
38 Frags +

bump for funs and giggles
all this hype and excitement down the drain makes me sad, so much hope for this game

bump for funs and giggles
all this hype and excitement down the drain makes me sad, so much hope for this game
591
#591
38 Frags +

mindblowing competitive mode, in the bad way
im surprised they got rid of the big "BETA" letters. they still belong there.

mindblowing competitive mode, in the bad way
im surprised they got rid of the big "BETA" letters. they still belong there.
592
#592
26 Frags +

most disappointing update tf2's ever had, hopefully valve can pull something out of their ass and fix it

it's not looking good right now

most disappointing update tf2's ever had, hopefully valve can pull something out of their ass and fix it

it's not looking good right now
593
#593
-17 Frags +

Rip TF2 2007-2019

Rip TF2 2007-2019
594
#594
37 Frags +
Show Content
[spoiler][img]http://image.prntscr.com/image/2b55b7cf7e5a465b9ccd67ddc1d7aee1.png[/img][/spoiler]
595
#595
19 Frags +
treetoon
Show Content

How to correctly necro a thread.

[quote=treetoon][spoiler][img]http://image.prntscr.com/image/2b55b7cf7e5a465b9ccd67ddc1d7aee1.png[/img][/spoiler][/quote]
How to correctly necro a thread.
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