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31
#31
3 Frags +
Ma3laastuff

Again, I agree with you. I think the point that most of the people here are trying to make (and that I doubt anyone disagrees with) is that it doesn't hurt to promote comp while not being a dick.

Point in case, I said before that I played in pubs prior to comp and encountered a lot of shit head kids who just pub stomped and spammed binds. I found out later that I also played on pubs frequented by players from much higher levels of competitive play. I never knew this about them until after I had joined the scene. But many of them contributed to my desire to get better at the game because they not only embodied a much higher level of play (having polk or milo or others like that on your team in a pub pretty much assured victory), but they also weren't dicks about it. I wanted to play as well as they did because they were good and they didn't make me hate playing with or against them because of that. Often I actually tried to always be on the other team, just to see if I could match them, or kill them in a 1v1 (didn't happen often, but sometimes it did, and that was my first big step towards really looking for more serious levels of play).

If any one of them had been wearing something like the playcomp.tf tag, I would have found the competitive scene so much sooner in my tf2 career.

My point is that, no one is saying that this community is as bad as so many people outside of it seem to think. What we are saying is that it certainly won't hurt for the far larger and far more positive and welcoming side of the community to be a bit more obvious. It is easy to spot the shithead iron/steel player who likes pub stomping because the chat is absolutely full of their binds (I once got vote kicked from a server I'd only just joined because I was a part of the LFT clan, an apparently known group of trolls and dicks).

People see the shitheads because the rest of us don't talk about comp all that much, for whatever reason, when we play pubs. And because they only see the shitheads they assume that the rest of us are like that as well.

[quote=Ma3laa]stuff[/quote]

Again, I agree with you. I think the point that most of the people here are trying to make (and that I doubt anyone disagrees with) is that it doesn't hurt to promote comp while not being a dick.

Point in case, I said before that I played in pubs prior to comp and encountered a lot of shit head kids who just pub stomped and spammed binds. I found out later that I also played on pubs frequented by players from much higher levels of competitive play. I never knew this about them until after I had joined the scene. But many of them contributed to my desire to get better at the game because they not only embodied a much higher level of play (having polk or milo or others like that on your team in a pub pretty much assured victory), but they also weren't dicks about it. I wanted to play as well as they did because they were good and they didn't make me hate playing with or against them because of that. Often I actually tried to always be on the other team, just to see if I could match them, or kill them in a 1v1 (didn't happen often, but sometimes it did, and that was my first big step towards really looking for more serious levels of play).

If any one of them had been wearing something like the playcomp.tf tag, I would have found the competitive scene so much sooner in my tf2 career.


My point is that, no one is saying that this community is as bad as so many people outside of it seem to think. What we are saying is that it certainly won't hurt for the far larger and far more positive and welcoming side of the community to be a bit more obvious. It is easy to spot the shithead iron/steel player who likes pub stomping because the chat is absolutely full of their binds (I once got vote kicked from a server I'd only just joined because I was a part of the LFT clan, an apparently known group of trolls and dicks).

People see the shitheads because the rest of us don't talk about comp all that much, for whatever reason, when we play pubs. And because they only see the shitheads they assume that the rest of us are like that as well.
32
#32
2 Frags +

stand alone game called 6s that stays in alpha forever, who's in?

stand alone game called 6s that stays in alpha forever, who's in?
33
#33
9 Frags +
kevyou will never be able to please every soul who wants to play 6v6 tf2 because they feel its toxic

this idea of "man i would participate in this competitive community but the people there are so mean" is in all competitive games and most of those people are just bullshitting honestly

"Toxic" has just become a codeword for "things I don't like". Sure, a whole lot of problems in the real world let alone in this community would be solved if everyone was at the very least able to forgive each other and/or get over stupid bullshit, but I don't think I could find anything really "toxic" about 6s TF2 at the ESEA level unless someone wants to go full redditumblr on me. The only community in which I could honestly say that there's a community-level problem in terms of bringing in new people would be Quake/CPMA and Benroads could talk about that for hours if need be.

For years I was always a promoter of reaching out to people who wanted a more serious play environment but who weren't ready to handle 6s/ESEA-level 6s, but as the years go on I've begun to see that a lot of my hopes just aren't realistic and that if people are really going to list "toxicity" as a reason not to play a video game I just don't know what to say.

[quote=kev]you will never be able to please every soul who wants to play 6v6 tf2 because they feel its toxic

this idea of "man i would participate in this competitive community but the people there are so mean" is in all competitive games and most of those people are just bullshitting honestly[/quote]

"Toxic" has just become a codeword for "things I don't like". Sure, a whole lot of problems in the real world let alone in this community would be solved if everyone was at the very least able to forgive each other and/or get over stupid bullshit, but I don't think I could find anything really "toxic" about 6s TF2 at the ESEA level unless someone wants to go full redditumblr on me. The only community in which I could honestly say that there's a community-level problem in terms of bringing in new people would be Quake/CPMA and Benroads could talk about that for hours if need be.

For years I was always a promoter of reaching out to people who wanted a more serious play environment but who weren't ready to handle 6s/ESEA-level 6s, but as the years go on I've begun to see that a lot of my hopes just aren't realistic and that if people are really going to list "toxicity" as a reason not to play a video game I just don't know what to say.
34
#34
5 Frags +

First off, the team fortress 2 community is the least toxic community i have ever played in. Second, someone calling you shit or worse than you should not make sad or angry, anyone who is mature will ignore the comment because they realize how stupid it is to waste his/her time on a random ass kid. If anything someone talking trash should encourage the person to improve, come back a couple months and be better than that player who was once calling him trash.

First off, the team fortress 2 community is the least toxic community i have ever played in. Second, someone calling you shit or worse than you should not make sad or angry, anyone who is mature will ignore the comment because they realize how stupid it is to waste his/her time on a random ass kid. If anything someone talking trash should encourage the person to improve, come back a couple months and be better than that player who was once calling him trash.
35
#35
7 Frags +
gr8stalin"Toxic" has just become a codeword for "things I don't like". Sure, a whole lot of problems in the real world let alone in this community would be solved if everyone was at the very least able to forgive each other and/or get over stupid bullshit, but I don't think I could find anything really "toxic" about 6s TF2 at the ESEA level unless someone wants to go full redditumblr on me. The only community in which I could honestly say that there's a community-level problem in terms of bringing in new people would be Quake/CPMA and Benroads could talk about that for hours if need be.

Agreed. But this is less about the reality of our community, and more about the perception of it from the outside.

1) We aren't toxic by most standards.
2) There are many examples of people outside of the scene believing, and commenting publicly about how toxic we are.

Those shouldn't add up, but they are true regardless. They are true because:

1) Most of the community doesn't play in pubs often
2) Many of those who do, play in pubs specifically to pub stomp (ie they are the ones who create this idea of a toxic comp community)
2a) Of those, most are very vocal with spam binds and shit talk (making it a very obvious and easy to remember experience)
3) The rest who play in pubs just go there to play, they don't talk about competitive much. And for the most part just appear to be chill players who are really good at the game (none of that suggests to the uninitiated that they are part of a comp scene, or that such a scene exists)

I think some of us have been a bit over zealous in promoting this idea of being polite as though it is something that most of us do not do. That isn't the case at all. Most of the people I've met in the community are happy to help new players (regardless of how much shit talk they use with their peers). We just need to stop letting the vocal few color the entire impression of our community to outside players.

As for people needing a thick skin. Not wanting to even look into a community that appears to be toxic doesn't mean that they don't have a thick skin, it just means that they don't have a compelling reason to subject themselves to shit heads for something they know nothing about. Give them a reason to give it a look and then you'll see if they have a thick skin or not.

[quote=gr8stalin]
"Toxic" has just become a codeword for "things I don't like". Sure, a whole lot of problems in the real world let alone in this community would be solved if everyone was at the very least able to forgive each other and/or get over stupid bullshit, but I don't think I could find anything really "toxic" about 6s TF2 at the ESEA level unless someone wants to go full redditumblr on me. The only community in which I could honestly say that there's a community-level problem in terms of bringing in new people would be Quake/CPMA and Benroads could talk about that for hours if need be.[/quote]

Agreed. But this is less about the reality of our community, and more about the perception of it from the outside.

1) We aren't toxic by most standards.
2) There are many examples of people outside of the scene believing, and commenting publicly about how toxic we are.

Those shouldn't add up, but they are true regardless. They are true because:

1) Most of the community doesn't play in pubs often
2) Many of those who do, play in pubs specifically to pub stomp (ie they are the ones who create this idea of a toxic comp community)
2a) Of those, most are very vocal with spam binds and shit talk (making it a very obvious and easy to remember experience)
3) The rest who play in pubs just go there to play, they don't talk about competitive much. And for the most part just appear to be chill players who are really good at the game (none of that suggests to the uninitiated that they are part of a comp scene, or that such a scene exists)

I think some of us have been a bit over zealous in promoting this idea of being polite as though it is something that most of us do not do. That isn't the case at all. Most of the people I've met in the community are happy to help new players (regardless of how much shit talk they use with their peers). We just need to stop letting the vocal few color the entire impression of our community to outside players.

As for people needing a thick skin. [b]Not wanting to even look into a community that appears to be toxic doesn't mean that they don't have a thick skin, it just means that they don't have a compelling reason to subject themselves to shit heads for something they know nothing about.[/b] Give them a reason to give it a look and then you'll see if they have a thick skin or not.
36
#36
14 Frags +

I decided to use a "check out playcomp.tf" bind, and on my first server, the first time I used it, the first reply was "No thanks, I don't want to be one of those asshole comp guys" and then a server full of people agreeing.

Really guys, it doesn't matter if you think its true if everyone else does.

EDIT: It doesn't matter if we're "not as bad" as other communities, it matters that the majority of the pub audience thinks we are. Remember, those aren't just potential players, but viewers for big events like the i series LANs and ESEA finals.

Admitting there is a problem is the first step in solving it.

I decided to use a "check out playcomp.tf" bind, and on my first server, the first time I used it, the first reply was "No thanks, I don't want to be one of those asshole comp guys" and then a server full of people agreeing.

Really guys, it doesn't matter if you think its true if everyone else does.

EDIT: It doesn't matter if we're "not as bad" as other communities, it matters that the majority of the pub audience thinks we are. Remember, those aren't just potential players, but viewers for big events like the i series LANs and ESEA finals.

Admitting there is a problem is the first step in solving it.
37
#37
-1 Frags +

the amount of time it would take to convince even an entire server of players that the comp community isnt "toxic" is unbelievably long. as people have mentioned this is a thought that is ingrained in pub players minds, even if they havent experienced it because theyve heard stories from others who have experienced it. it would take more than one person being "nice" (sucking their dick, holding their hand, answering every question again and again and again and again and they still dont understand or want to accept it) to convince them, and not only that youd have to convince all of them, each server that "maybe competitive tf2 isnt that bad", to achieve what people want to achieve.
this isnt realistically feasible with the size and commitment of the community, nor should people be expected to do this.

the amount of time it would take to convince even an entire server of players that the comp community isnt "toxic" is unbelievably long. as people have mentioned this is a thought that is ingrained in pub players minds, even if they havent experienced it because theyve heard stories from others who have experienced it. it would take more than one person being "nice" (sucking their dick, holding their hand, answering every question again and again and again and again and they still dont understand or want to accept it) to convince them, and not only that youd have to convince all of them, each server that "maybe competitive tf2 isnt that bad", to achieve what people want to achieve.
this isnt realistically feasible with the size and commitment of the community, nor should people be expected to do this.
38
#38
9 Frags +
downpourthe amount of time it would take to convince even an entire server of players that the comp community isnt "toxic" is unbelievably long. as people have mentioned this is a thought that is ingrained in pub players minds, even if they havent experienced it because theyve heard stories from others who have experienced it. it would take more than one person being "nice" (sucking their dick, holding their hand, answering every question again and again and again and again and they still dont understand or want to accept it) to convince them, and not only that youd have to convince all of them, each server that "maybe competitive tf2 isnt that bad", to achieve what people want to achieve.
this isnt realistically feasible with the size and commitment of the community, nor should people be expected to do this.

So what is your suggestion: don't try, accept that most of our potential player/viewer base hates us for reasons that aren't even valid, but still perpetuated by second hand experiences?

If you think we want to change this perception overnight then yes, we are being unrealistic. But I'd rather show a handful of people that I meet in pubs that we aren't all dicks, than give up because it will be hard, and some of them won't listen.

If you are nice, and you promote the scene IT DOESN'T MATTER IF MOST PEOPLE DON'T LISTEN OR CARE. We don't have to convert everyone, or anyone in particular. We just have to show that there is more to us than the shitheads that perpetuate the idea that we are toxic. And if 1 in 100 people who sees your tag, or your bind, joins a team, than that effort was successful.

If people resist, complain, or even insult you for promoting comp tf2 then grow a thicker skin.

Can we stop insulting pub players for not being able to handle shit talk when we seem to get discouraged because it might be hard, or take a while, or come with some negative reactions?

[quote=downpour]the amount of time it would take to convince even an entire server of players that the comp community isnt "toxic" is unbelievably long. as people have mentioned this is a thought that is ingrained in pub players minds, even if they havent experienced it because theyve heard stories from others who have experienced it. it would take more than one person being "nice" (sucking their dick, holding their hand, answering every question again and again and again and again and they still dont understand or want to accept it) to convince them, and not only that youd have to convince all of them, each server that "maybe competitive tf2 isnt that bad", to achieve what people want to achieve.
this isnt realistically feasible with the size and commitment of the community, nor should people be expected to do this.[/quote]


So what is your suggestion: don't try, accept that most of our potential player/viewer base hates us for reasons that aren't even valid, but still perpetuated by second hand experiences?

If you think we want to change this perception overnight then yes, we are being unrealistic. But I'd rather show a handful of people that I meet in pubs that we aren't all dicks, than give up because it will be hard, and some of them won't listen.

If you are nice, and you promote the scene [b]IT DOESN'T MATTER IF MOST PEOPLE DON'T LISTEN OR CARE[/b]. We don't have to convert everyone, or anyone in particular. We just have to show that there is more to us than the shitheads that perpetuate the idea that we are toxic. And if 1 in 100 people who sees your tag, or your bind, joins a team, than that effort was successful.

If people resist, complain, or even insult you for promoting comp tf2 then grow a thicker skin.


Can we stop insulting pub players for not being able to handle shit talk when we seem to get discouraged because it might be hard, or take a while, or come with some negative reactions?
39
#39
29 Frags +

8:55 PM - Velo: I think im in!
8:55 PM - Velo: Subbing for spy
8:56 PM - Velo: :)
8:56 PM - Velo: thanks man

More messages in the convo but this is basically what matters.

Yo its fucking easy people.

- Played in a valve server with playcomp.tf in my alias
- Asked people if they had heard about comp during setup time
- Was polite and explained some things in chat
- This guy adds me. He was doing pretty well in the pub.
- I told him about the leagues, how to get mumble, tf2center etc.
- Fucking 36 hours later he sends me this.

I think theres some Dota level "we fucking lost" mentality here. Buck up for this terrible game we all love to hate.

8:55 PM - Velo: I think im in!
8:55 PM - Velo: Subbing for spy
8:56 PM - Velo: :)
8:56 PM - Velo: thanks man

More messages in the convo but this is basically what matters.

Yo its fucking easy people.

- Played in a valve server with playcomp.tf in my alias
- Asked people if they had heard about comp during setup time
- Was [b]polite[/b] and explained some things in chat
- This guy adds me. He was doing pretty well in the pub.
- I told him about the leagues, how to get mumble, tf2center etc.
- Fucking 36 hours later he sends me this.

I think theres some Dota level "we fucking lost" mentality here. Buck up for this terrible game we all love to hate.
40
#40
0 Frags +

again, nobody's expecting you to actively change the world overnight. I don't think you need to spend your time in pubs arguing with others, because that could arguably make it worse. all I really want out of players right now is for them to put on a tag that shows they're competitive, and how to play competitive. show awareness, solidify being a better community (which, rly, just comes down to "always improve yourself as a person", like you should be in general), and nothing more than that.

in general, it's not as difficult as I think people are making it. again, you won't become a cbear or star overnight by putting a tag in your name, but it helps. make people acknowledge your existence, and make yourself better than you were yesterday (which can be interpreted in many ways, and all of them work in this scenario). if you want to do more than that like many have, great! but in general, the big issue here is that nobody even knows that you exist. fixing that's a great start

again, nobody's expecting you to actively change the world overnight. I don't think you need to spend your time in pubs arguing with others, because that could arguably make it worse. all I really want out of players right now is for them to put on a tag that shows they're competitive, and how to play competitive. show awareness, solidify being a better community (which, rly, just comes down to "always improve yourself as a person", like you should be in general), and nothing more than that.

in general, it's not as difficult as I think people are making it. again, you won't become a cbear or star overnight by putting a tag in your name, but it helps. make people acknowledge your existence, and make yourself better than you were yesterday (which can be interpreted in many ways, and all of them work in this scenario). if you want to do more than that like many have, great! but in general, the big issue here is that [i]nobody even knows that you exist[/i]. fixing that's a great start
41
#41
19 Frags +

http://i.imgur.com/Fh6QQF9.png

[img]http://i.imgur.com/Fh6QQF9.png[/img]
42
#42
9 Frags +
_In_Sanity1) Most of the community doesn't play in pubs often
2) Many of those who do, play in pubs specifically to pub stomp (ie they are the ones who create this idea of a toxic comp community)
2a) Of those, most are very vocal with spam binds and shit talk (making it a very obvious and easy to remember experience)

1. The parts of the old guard I know don't pub anymore because pubs are a mess since TF2 is no longer as Valve originally promoted it (I can write a big nerd essay about this and might make it a semester break project as a writing exercise). Those that do usually pop hud_say_text_time and voice_enable 0 in console and just goof around.

2. The first part goes back to point 1 in that a lot of the people that most would consider the "pub stomp" crowd don't even play pubs anymore. The second part I've never seen happen outside of a UGC player/Lobbystar pops into a server hoping to be the big shit on campus dropping hot meme binds when he kills tommy.rodriguez156 who might as well have no monitor.

_In_SanityAs for people needing a thick skin. Not wanting to even look into a community that appears to be toxic doesn't mean that they don't have a thick skin, it just means that they don't have a compelling reason to subject themselves to shit heads for something they know nothing about. Give them a reason to give it a look and then you'll see if they have a thick skin or not.

Because lowering the bar worked out so well for the American Public Education System, right? Most of the people who use "toxic" as an excuse for not wanting to play competitive anything most likely aren't good enough to play competitively in the first place and let's face it: would you REALLY want someone like that in the community at all? Meb and downpour are ultimately right: the amount of time needed for investment in bringing in people who are simply stuck in their viewpoint far outweighs the return. Some people are simply satisfied by going engineer and having the game played for them or going pyro and swinging their mouse around violently (most can't even do this) for free kills. I'm not about to launch a crusade to convince them that they're not having fun and that they need to see the light that we're a super-polite community, and you shouldn't either.

[quote=_In_Sanity]
1) Most of the community doesn't play in pubs often
2) Many of those who do, play in pubs specifically to pub stomp (ie they are the ones who create this idea of a toxic comp community)
2a) Of those, most are very vocal with spam binds and shit talk (making it a very obvious and easy to remember experience)[/quote]

1. The parts of the old guard I know don't pub anymore because pubs are a mess since TF2 is no longer as Valve originally promoted it (I can write a big nerd essay about this and might make it a semester break project as a writing exercise). Those that do usually pop hud_say_text_time and voice_enable 0 in console and just goof around.

2. The first part goes back to point 1 in that a lot of the people that most would consider the "pub stomp" crowd don't even play pubs anymore. The second part I've never seen happen outside of a UGC player/Lobbystar pops into a server hoping to be the big shit on campus dropping hot meme binds when he kills tommy.rodriguez156 who might as well have no monitor.

[quote=_In_Sanity]As for people needing a thick skin. [b]Not wanting to even look into a community that appears to be toxic doesn't mean that they don't have a thick skin, it just means that they don't have a compelling reason to subject themselves to shit heads for something they know nothing about.[/b] Give them a reason to give it a look and then you'll see if they have a thick skin or not.[/quote]

Because lowering the bar worked out so well for the American Public Education System, right? Most of the people who use "toxic" as an excuse for not wanting to play competitive anything most likely aren't good enough to play competitively in the first place and let's face it: would you [i]REALLY[/i] want someone like that in the community at all? Meb and downpour are ultimately right: the amount of time needed for investment in bringing in people who are simply stuck in their viewpoint far outweighs the return. Some people are simply satisfied by going engineer and having the game played for them or going pyro and swinging their mouse around violently (most can't even do this) for free kills. I'm not about to launch a crusade to convince them that they're not having fun and that they need to see the light that we're a super-polite community, and you shouldn't either.
43
#43
-4 Frags +

damn gig that guy cared a lot about chat

damn gig that guy cared a lot about chat
44
#44
-4 Frags +

i mean this is nice and all but A this is an old school community with an old school vibe and way of thinking, we dont and never really will have any of that touchy feely justice warrior shit that is so prevalent now a days and id be more then happy to keep it that way. And B most of the shittalking really comes from th UGC Steel and Silver warriors thinking that they are gods among men so yeah, go talk to them lol.

i mean this is nice and all but A this is an old school community with an old school vibe and way of thinking, we dont and never really will have any of that touchy feely justice warrior shit that is so prevalent now a days and id be more then happy to keep it that way. And B most of the shittalking really comes from th UGC Steel and Silver warriors thinking that they are gods among men so yeah, go talk to them lol.
45
#45
8 Frags +

What do these people do instead of comp to avoid any toxic players?

What do these people do instead of comp to avoid any toxic players?
46
#46
6 Frags +
fatswimdudeWhat do these people do instead of comp to avoid any toxic players?

Trade

[quote=fatswimdude]What do these people do instead of comp to avoid any toxic players?[/quote]
Trade
47
#47
2 Frags +
gr8stalin1. The parts of the old guard I know don't pub anymore because pubs are a mess since TF2 is no longer as Valve originally promoted it (I can write a big nerd essay about this and might make it a semester break project as a writing exercise). Those that do usually pop hud_say_text_time and voice_enable 0 in console and just goof around.

2. The first part goes back to point 1 in that a lot of the people that most would consider the "pub stomp" crowd don't even play pubs anymore. The second part I've never seen happen outside of a UGC player/Lobbystar pops into a server hoping to be the big shit on campus dropping hot meme binds when he kills tommy.rodriguez156 who might as well have no monitor.

Because lowering the bar worked out so well for the American Public Education System, right? Most of the people who use "toxic" as an excuse for not wanting to play competitive anything most likely aren't good enough to play competitively in the first place and let's face it: would you REALLY want someone like that in the community at all? Meb and downpour are ultimately right: the amount of time needed for investment in bringing in people who are simply stuck in their viewpoint far outweighs the return. Some people are simply satisfied by going engineer and having the game played for them or going pyro and swinging their mouse around violently (most can't even do this) for free kills. I'm not about to launch a crusade to convince them that they're not having fun and that they need to see the light that we're a super-polite community, and you shouldn't either.

1) not saying people have to pub, I completely understand why top players don't. Just saying that if you do, don't be an ass. And maybe talk some about comp play to people. See if there is an interest. Be proud of the league and community you are a part of and share that with people without being a douche.

2) I said before that most of the people that are the worst offenders are playing in iron/steel or just lobbies. They are usually 12 and think they are big shit. Or, more often, they thought they were big shit and just got stomped by much better players, so they head to a valve server to feel good about themselves by making other people feel bad.

3) I am not suggesting we baby anyone. Or that we go out of our way to convert someone who won't play because some mean people on the internet said a mean thing. You are right, those people probably aren't a good fit for a competitive format, though they may enjoy watching... and we need viewers as much as we need players).

What I am saying is that we should make the effort to let people see the fun, worthwhile side of the competitive community. Not because ALL of them will suddenly see the light and play comp, but because some of them might.

If you seriously don't think it is worthwhile to have new players play this game... then can I ask why you play this game. I'd think anyone who enjoys TF2 enough to play it competitively, even knowing that it will never make them rich, would love the idea of new players entering the scene. And it is stupidly simple to not be an ass to literally everyone you meet, and mention that comp tf2 is a thing every once in a while.

[quote=gr8stalin]
1. The parts of the old guard I know don't pub anymore because pubs are a mess since TF2 is no longer as Valve originally promoted it (I can write a big nerd essay about this and might make it a semester break project as a writing exercise). Those that do usually pop hud_say_text_time and voice_enable 0 in console and just goof around.

2. The first part goes back to point 1 in that a lot of the people that most would consider the "pub stomp" crowd don't even play pubs anymore. The second part I've never seen happen outside of a UGC player/Lobbystar pops into a server hoping to be the big shit on campus dropping hot meme binds when he kills tommy.rodriguez156 who might as well have no monitor.

Because lowering the bar worked out so well for the American Public Education System, right? Most of the people who use "toxic" as an excuse for not wanting to play competitive anything most likely aren't good enough to play competitively in the first place and let's face it: would you [i]REALLY[/i] want someone like that in the community at all? Meb and downpour are ultimately right: the amount of time needed for investment in bringing in people who are simply stuck in their viewpoint far outweighs the return. Some people are simply satisfied by going engineer and having the game played for them or going pyro and swinging their mouse around violently (most can't even do this) for free kills. I'm not about to launch a crusade to convince them that they're not having fun and that they need to see the light that we're a super-polite community, and you shouldn't either.[/quote]

1) not saying people have to pub, I completely understand why top players don't. Just saying that if you do, don't be an ass. And maybe talk some about comp play to people. See if there is an interest. Be proud of the league and community you are a part of and share that with people without being a douche.

2) I said before that most of the people that are the worst offenders are playing in iron/steel or just lobbies. They are usually 12 and think they are big shit. Or, more often, they thought they were big shit and just got stomped by much better players, so they head to a valve server to feel good about themselves by making other people feel bad.

3) I am not suggesting we baby anyone. Or that we go out of our way to convert someone who won't play because some mean people on the internet said a mean thing. You are right, those people probably aren't a good fit for a competitive format, though they may enjoy watching... and we need viewers as much as we need players).


What I am saying is that we should make the effort to let people see the fun, worthwhile side of the competitive community. Not because ALL of them will suddenly see the light and play comp, but because some of them might.

If you seriously don't think it is worthwhile to have new players play this game... then can I ask why you play this game. I'd think anyone who enjoys TF2 enough to play it competitively, even knowing that it will never make them rich, would love the idea of new players entering the scene. And it is stupidly simple to not be an ass to literally everyone you meet, and mention that comp tf2 is a thing every once in a while.
48
#48
11 Frags +
kaiserRegfatswimdudeWhat do these people do instead of comp to avoid any toxic players?Trade

traders are way more blunt/mean than comp players

people just come up with excuses to not get good at things
tf2 is a game that most people are not interested in being good at
CS is filled with terrible people, BM, and normies, and its still incredibly popular
you don't have to actually make people want to play comp, you just have to make them want to get good at the game

[quote=kaiserReg][quote=fatswimdude]What do these people do instead of comp to avoid any toxic players?[/quote]
Trade[/quote]
traders are way more blunt/mean than comp players

people just come up with excuses to not get good at things
tf2 is a game that most people are not interested in being good at
CS is filled with terrible people, BM, and normies, and its still incredibly popular
you don't have to actually make people want to play comp, you just have to make them want to get good at the game
49
#49
9 Frags +

To be honest, 90% of these people that go around saying how toxic comp players are have literally just had one person be mean to them once and held onto that stigma for the entire time, or just heard so many people say it that they assumed it was true for themselves. There's not much you can do about that but make "comp players" seem like it's not some edgy thing where the people who are part of it think they're special.

CS and Dota are much more toxic than TF2, but they don't have that idea since being competitive is the main idea behind those games in the first place. I'm not sure if there's anything that can be done about this, but this is what I think is the reason.

To be honest, 90% of these people that go around saying how toxic comp players are have literally just had one person be mean to them once and held onto that stigma for the entire time, or just heard so many people say it that they assumed it was true for themselves. There's not much you can do about that but make "comp players" seem like it's not some edgy thing where the people who are part of it think they're special.

CS and Dota are much more toxic than TF2, but they don't have that idea since being competitive is the main idea behind those games in the first place. I'm not sure if there's anything that can be done about this, but this is what I think is the reason.
50
#50
-1 Frags +

what an active repetitive thread

what an active repetitive thread
51
#51
1 Frags +

I genuinely don't know what I can say anymore that wouldn't simply be repeating myself, I'll be honest. this entire conversation is

-we should [do thing]
-why should we [do something else entirely]
-no I said [do thing]
-excuse me what is the use in [doing something unrelated]

etc

I genuinely don't know what I can say anymore that wouldn't simply be repeating myself, I'll be honest. this entire conversation is

-we should [do thing]
-why should we [do something else entirely]
-no I said [do thing]
-excuse me what is the use in [doing something unrelated]

etc
52
#52
3 Frags +

wareya is completely correct.

I know I'm not one to talk, considering that I really am unknown in the competitive community (being a steel player and all), but I think that a good majority of the people that act high and mighty in pubs are either:

a) low level players that feel like they're better than everyone else because they've started playing comp (I've talked to several of these "bragging about comp" pubstompers and this is the majority of them)

or

b) pubstompers who never made it to comp due to their attitude

The "asshole comp player" is becoming a stereotype due to these players and all we have to do is create some outreach potential. Schedule some events with large server chains like Lotus and Skial, maybe a "comp player meetup", and show them how nice we can be. We don't have to be bound by these stereotypes. We also need to do some outreach to lower level players and make sure they know how to act in pubs and in the public view.

It's all well and good that we're promoting comp using the tags but players with experience against these "asshole comp players" will do their best to label you as another showoff to perpetuate their stereotype. Because of this, it'll get harder and harder to get people to join comp teams because they will keep seeing people say that comp players are assholes and end up agreeing without any evidence.

Again, not purporting to be above any of this (I have work to do as well), but this will probably be the best solution in the long run.

wareya is completely correct.

I know I'm not one to talk, considering that I really am unknown in the competitive community (being a steel player and all), but I think that a good majority of the people that act high and mighty in pubs are either:

a) low level players that feel like they're better than everyone else because they've started playing comp (I've talked to several of these "bragging about comp" pubstompers and this is the majority of them)

or

b) pubstompers who never made it to comp due to their attitude

The "asshole comp player" is becoming a stereotype due to these players and all we have to do is create some outreach potential. Schedule some events with large server chains like Lotus and Skial, maybe a "comp player meetup", and show them how nice we can be. We don't have to be bound by these stereotypes. We also need to do some outreach to lower level players and make sure they know how to act in pubs and in the public view.

It's all well and good that we're promoting comp using the tags but players with experience against these "asshole comp players" will do their best to label you as another showoff to perpetuate their stereotype. Because of this, it'll get harder and harder to get people to join comp teams because they will keep seeing people say that comp players are assholes and end up agreeing without any evidence.

Again, not purporting to be above any of this (I have work to do as well), but this will probably be the best solution in the long run.
53
#53
2 Frags +

Just like to point out

All competitive communities have

- Elitism

- Toxic assholes

- reclusive comp players who don't play with pub players

most competitive communities

- get little to no support from their developer for competitive

- are not well known at all by a large portion of the active community

[edit]
BTW, Reaching out to skial will almost certainly will not work cause Bottiger (site owner) actually seems to hate competitive TF2 as he has said to me in the past that comp. players tend to no longer play on Skial servers (not true), disable ads if they stay (almost certainly true), and even refuses to support the UGC HL team that is made up almost entirely of Skial admins.

Just like to point out

[b]All competitive communities have[/b]

- Elitism

- Toxic assholes

- reclusive comp players who don't play with pub players

[b]most competitive communities[/b]

- get little to no support from their developer for competitive

- are not well known at all by a large portion of the active community

[edit]
BTW, Reaching out to skial will almost certainly will not work cause Bottiger (site owner) actually seems to hate competitive TF2 as he has said to me in the past that comp. players tend to no longer play on Skial servers (not true), disable ads if they stay (almost certainly true), and even refuses to support the UGC HL team that is made up almost entirely of Skial admins.
54
#54
1 Frags +
obe_I don't see how we can ever hope to have people take this community seriously when stuff like this is not only allowed to be posted, but actually receives +frags. I know this is a singular event but we don't have a big enough playerbase to get away with this shit like the dota or league playerbase does. Like avast said, cs and mobas have worse communities than ours, BUT they get away with it because they don't need to make a good first impression. Their games are already at forefront of esports, mobas especially.

Regardless, by this point, I'm pretty much convinced that there's no real hope for the competitive scene really ever getting big. At best it'll stagnate at stuff like 1.5k viewers for HL grand finals, and that's fine by me. However if we are still concerned with helping the scene grow, there needs to be an effort made around here to promote a slightly more PC environment. It's cool if you say shit like "salty ass nig" in your mumble channel around people you know aren't easily offended/totally okay with that language, but this is a public forum and behavior like this really just doesn't belong here. It makes us all look bad and this community can't afford that.

tbh people say way worse in other games, dont cs people at lan yell niggers across the venue when we have guys yelling gotta pop that snowflake

[quote=obe_]I don't see how we can ever hope to have people take this community seriously when stuff like [url=http://teamfortress.tv/thread/21578/ugc-highlander-season-14-platinum-grand-finals#26]this[/url] is not only allowed to be posted, but actually receives +frags. I know this is a singular event but we don't have a big enough playerbase to get away with this shit like the dota or league playerbase does. Like avast said, cs and mobas have worse communities than ours, BUT they get away with it because they don't need to make a good first impression. Their games are already at forefront of esports, mobas especially.

Regardless, by this point, I'm pretty much convinced that there's no real hope for the competitive scene really ever getting big. At best it'll stagnate at stuff like 1.5k viewers for HL grand finals, and that's fine by me. However if we are still concerned with helping the scene grow, there needs to be an effort made around here to promote a slightly more PC environment. It's cool if you say shit like "salty ass nig" in your mumble channel around people you know aren't easily offended/totally okay with that language, but this is a public forum and behavior like this really just doesn't belong here. It makes us all look bad and this community can't afford that.[/quote]
tbh people say way worse in other games, dont cs people at lan yell niggers across the venue when we have guys yelling gotta pop that snowflake
55
#55
0 Frags +
jake_8:55 PM - Velo: I think im in!
8:55 PM - Velo: Subbing for spy
8:56 PM - Velo: :)
8:56 PM - Velo: thanks man

More messages in the convo but this is basically what matters.

Yo its fucking easy people.

- Played in a valve server with playcomp.tf in my alias
- Asked people if they had heard about comp during setup time
- Was polite and explained some things in chat
- This guy adds me. He was doing pretty well in the pub.
- I told him about the leagues, how to get mumble, tf2center etc.
- Fucking 36 hours later he sends me this.

I think theres some Dota level "we fucking lost" mentality here. Buck up for this terrible game we all love to hate.

Tell him to do the same and start a chain reaction!
It's also worth checking up some pub forums and adding people who are asking how to rocket jump and do some other shit, if they are interested in that they may be interested in comp and you may show it to them afterwards (that's what I did, it took literally one hour though we couldn't play a lobby because of some mumble issues)

[quote=jake_]8:55 PM - Velo: I think im in!
8:55 PM - Velo: Subbing for spy
8:56 PM - Velo: :)
8:56 PM - Velo: thanks man

More messages in the convo but this is basically what matters.

Yo its fucking easy people.

- Played in a valve server with playcomp.tf in my alias
- Asked people if they had heard about comp during setup time
- Was [b]polite[/b] and explained some things in chat
- This guy adds me. He was doing pretty well in the pub.
- I told him about the leagues, how to get mumble, tf2center etc.
- Fucking 36 hours later he sends me this.

I think theres some Dota level "we fucking lost" mentality here. Buck up for this terrible game we all love to hate.[/quote]
Tell him to do the same and start a chain reaction!
It's also worth checking up some pub forums and adding people who are asking how to rocket jump and do some other shit, if they are interested in that they may be interested in comp and you may show it to them afterwards (that's what I did, it took literally one hour though we couldn't play a lobby because of some mumble issues)
56
#56
-4 Frags +
obe_I don't see how we can ever hope to have people take this community seriously when stuff like this is not only allowed to be posted, but actually receives +frags.

the word nig is killing tf2

[quote=obe_]I don't see how we can ever hope to have people take this community seriously when stuff like [url=http://teamfortress.tv/thread/21578/ugc-highlander-season-14-platinum-grand-finals#26]this[/url] is not only allowed to be posted, but actually receives +frags. [/quote]

the word nig is killing tf2
57
#57
2 Frags +

yo this is a good thread but i hate the whole idea that comp players pubstomping is what makes the community toxic. Like, im pretty okay at the game, okay enough that i decided to get into comp and esea. but i still love to pub becuase most of my friends dont like comp. im not gonna handicap myself or play engie or something just so im not stomping all the players and top scoring, its bad enough that i dont like playing my main in pubs. i just feel like a big argument about the community being toxic is that were better than the average pubber and they dont like it.

yo this is a good thread but i hate the whole idea that comp players pubstomping is what makes the community toxic. Like, im pretty okay at the game, okay enough that i decided to get into comp and esea. but i still love to pub becuase most of my friends dont like comp. im not gonna handicap myself or play engie or something just so im not stomping all the players and top scoring, its bad enough that i dont like playing my main in pubs. i just feel like a big argument about the community being toxic is that were better than the average pubber and they dont like it.
58
#58
3 Frags +

Unfortunately the most vocal members of any community tend the people who believe they are entitled their opinion over others. This regardless of whatever "sub-community" they hail from. That being said Valve a company out to make money. Even if we did homogenize all of these various groups and created something that could get Valve's attention it wouldn't be any larger than the community they are ignoring already. Its naive to think that you can convert the nonbelievers of r/tf2 into some army of comp players. Even if you did it would just be harping on the same points which we have for ages now. The same vocal minority would stand out. IMO the only way to reach a company like Valve for support is not to yell louder in their ear but to create something for ourselves that they could see value in. I think Tip of the Hats is the closest thing we have ever come to creating a singular voice for the community and all we got for it was a hat (crazy right???). The End of the Line update seemed to be something of a clarion call for everyone disatified with Valves treatment of the game but I fear its far too little far too late.

Unfortunately the most vocal members of any community tend the people who believe they are entitled their opinion over others. This regardless of whatever "sub-community" they hail from. That being said Valve a company out to make money. Even if we did homogenize all of these various groups and created something that could get Valve's attention it wouldn't be any larger than the community they are ignoring already. Its naive to think that you can convert the nonbelievers of r/tf2 into some army of comp players. Even if you did it would just be harping on the same points which we have for ages now. The same vocal minority would stand out. IMO the only way to reach a company like Valve for support is not to yell louder in their ear but to create something for ourselves that they could see value in. I think Tip of the Hats is the closest thing we have ever come to creating a singular voice for the community and all we got for it was a hat (crazy right???). The End of the Line update seemed to be something of a clarion call for everyone disatified with Valves treatment of the game but I fear its [color=red]far too little far too late.[/color]
59
#59
11 Frags +

no guys the community isn't toxic

i'm not trying to call anyone out specifically but are you seriously going to pretend that there's no problem when we tell people to kill themselves because they play one of the nine classes in highlander, or tell pubbers to "exit the server" when they die to you? and when someone complains about something, instead of respecting the fact that they might prefer you stop doing something you just brag about the fact that someone is annoyed by your actions.

the comp community has tons of people that show little to no respect for others, and it's the biggest reason why i'm not really a part of the comp scene anymore

[url=http://www.ugcleague.com/forum/showthread.php?4889-What-s-on-your-mind&p=176925&viewfull=1#post176925]no[/url] [url=http://i.imgur.com/j6xk8Hf.png]guys[/url] [url=http://i.imgur.com/lePElAX.png]the[/url] [url=http://teamfortress.tv/user/profile/Ggglygy]community[/url] [url=http://teamfortress.tv/thread/21593/experienced-pyro-looking-for-teams#7]isn't[/url] [url=http://puu.sh/dxyOV/194cca2cb1.jpg]toxic[/url]

i'm not trying to call anyone out specifically but are you seriously going to pretend that there's no problem when we tell people to kill themselves because they play one of the nine classes in highlander, or tell pubbers to "exit the server" when they die to you? and when someone complains about something, instead of respecting the fact that they might prefer you stop doing something you just brag about the fact that someone is annoyed by your actions.

the comp community has tons of people that show little to no respect for others, and it's the biggest reason why i'm not really a part of the comp scene anymore
60
#60
28 Frags +
safrixobe_I don't see how we can ever hope to have people take this community seriously when stuff like this is not only allowed to be posted, but actually receives +frags.
the word nig is killing tf2

this isn't helping

http://i.imgur.com/CfiGXU4.png

[quote=safrix][quote=obe_]I don't see how we can ever hope to have people take this community seriously when stuff like [url=http://teamfortress.tv/thread/21578/ugc-highlander-season-14-platinum-grand-finals#26]this[/url] is not only allowed to be posted, but actually receives +frags. [/quote]

the word nig is killing tf2[/quote]
this isn't helping
[img]http://i.imgur.com/CfiGXU4.png[/img]
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