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101

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_DVS_303kQ

ya but gunboats are more of a complete upgrade to the roamer role than a good alternative, which is what the quick is to medics. but i'm all for the QF being used more now. i'm not sure what's with some of this community and not being able to realize there will be new items that are balanced, good and can also change the landscape of the class that uses it.

For what it's worth, I personally wouldn't say it's overpowered without testing it enough. On face value, it's MAYBE borderline. Quickfix heavy is fucking absurd - practically crit heals and 375(?) health? *vom*. I think something on the qf should be changed to make it less strong, but I'm not quite sure what.

I'd need to see it used/use it myself more before I can pass judgement, but there's my 1.5 cents.

The QF is almost certainly at least as effective as regular uber.

Why is that a problem exactly? All our talk about making the game faster, and the solution is literally handed to us in the form of the Quick Fix. Remember how we said the two ways to increase a skill ceiling is by making aiming more important or by adding advanced movement techniques? Quick Fix.

I fully expect to see the QF and Kritzkrieg become the mediguns of choice for competitive medics. Not because the Quick Fix is more powerful, but because it's more FUN. It is way more exciting to be constantly aggressive and flying all over the map than it is to stalemate out 9 times a game and wait for uber to build. And if everyone is using the Quick Fix, that makes full time Kritz viable. I'm not saying it's a counter to QF, but it's certainly equal to it. And Kritz is fun too. The Quick Fix by proxy is responsible for those absurd DPM numbers that have popped up in the last week or two.

You can still run Uber, you just get to be boring about it. You get to play with HRG level of passiveness, not committing to any fights until you have uber because you aren't capable of playing as aggressively as the QF team. Or much more interestingly, the meta might simply invert itself, and we'll have suprise ubers for pushing last instead of surprise Kritzkriegs. Uber will always be best for pushing into an entrenched team.

If the Quick Fix does become more effective than uber it will be because the weapon has a higher skill ceiling, not because it's inherently overpowered. And that's a good thing, an amazing thing. Quick Fix makes TF2 more advanced both on a player level and a team one. It might make Uber obsolete, but there is so much to gain compared to what would be lost.

just get rid of the medics flying around everywhere, its silly and gimmicky, like what is that honestly.

I understand the concept of what they were trying to do here,
-Make medic more fun
-add new element to the game
-fix a problem with stalemating

But with that comes some other issues, ones that may or may not break the game, [I cannot take a side as I have not played a multiplayer game of tf2 for a month and a half] but if it does the metagame shifts, if it becomes the new "go to medigun" then what would happen here?
-faster paced game
-higher variability [ pro or con depending on view ]
-less team dependency to protect the medic
---more indepence as a medic which is neat to some people

When I was testing the quick fix before it had buffs I did some rollout testing with some jumper friends of mine, we concluded that the statistical timing changes to the game were that the medic can get to mid before the demoman on the majority of maps, (due to the fact that the class weight is made that if not jumping or crouching you recieve the same amount of push that they would, but if timed correctly could get approx. 2x higher and further than the "jumpee")

The "higher skill ceiling" idea is technically true, if practiced enough one could essentially make a soldier/medic combo move at a constant rocketjumping rate forever, while getting healed. I am not sure that when a team arrives that perfects this that it would be something that we want in the game. Yes it is a fun idea but right now as everybody can pull off this feat to an extent, but that 1% of competitive teams that learn how to use it "perfectly" will have NO reason not to use it.

TL:DR
Though teams have gotten close, I don't believe any team has exercised its full potential, and when they do, I think a weapon ban would be in place and I don't want the concept of the weapon to be removed as that is not how valve and the TF team are intending to move this game forward. Gun needs a little stat tweaking in the long run.

That's not quite what I meant. I wasn't referring to the technical skill of the jump itself, but the new options available to the medic and team granted by the bungee effect. It's a new playstyle, a level of aggression that has a potentially higher skill ceiling for the team as a whole than standard uber has to offer. Don't you believe that that 1% of teams with a high enough skill level to wholly utilize the weapon deserve the high levels of effectiveness they'll reap? Shouldn't we encourage skill based gameplay, and isn't that the point of competitive?

Nobody complained before that Uber was the only viable full time medigun, but now, when faced with a future meta that might have Quick Fix as the only viable full time medigun, people have a problem with it. If the QF were better than Uber because it was OP, then we'd have a problem. But if the QF is better than Uber because it raises the skill ceiling, then we should be excited.

I'm not convinced that the QF makes the game faster. Adding more healing just makes fights more prolonged? That's no bad thing; plenty of action and DM becomes a greater determiner of the outcome.

I love the prospect of the QF but right now it has got too much going for it.

PROS:
+ Heal rate and medic movement ability allows you to be incredibly aggressive
+ Faster build rate than Medigun or Kritzkrieg, even whilst playing aggressive (with buffs)
+ Charge overheals the medic (can survive an uncharged headshot)
+ Charge makes you immune to knockback/stun/airblasts
+ Can cap whilst charged (confirm?)

CONS:
- 50% less overheal means relatively weaker in high damage situations (vs Kritz or very close quarters)

As long as you keep track of your opponent and zone then out QF currently plays very well in most situations, almost certainly the strongest option. Also incredibly flexible and as such much less of a gamble to use than Kritz or Uber.

People talking about Kritz being the counter, try Kritzing against a QF charged Heavy; 375HP + 100HP per second x 8 seconds... and he shoots back! :D

I think it needs a slight debuff.

PROBLEMS vs SOLUTIONS:
"It builds too damn fast!"
Perhaps increase build time to 40s?
Perhaps remove the flat build rate?

"Charged medic is too damn hard to kill!"
Perhaps remove the medic self-overheal?
Perhaps remove the self-healing when not healing a target?

"It doesn't really have any big downsides!"
Perhaps something subtle like removing medics regen when QF equipped?

In that situation, you would just 1-shot the Medic, which is why it's considered the counter to QF.

Then you a bad medic :D

it's faster because you need to be aggressive with it or you will lose to a team with uber and bigger buffs. med needs to commit to take advantage of faster healing and the faster charge rate

You're speaking as if uber v no uber is ever a good fight to take. Kritz works even less well against an ubered heavy, who has 450 at the end of the charge, and takes no damage whatsoever from a kritz.

Arguing that Quick Fix uber itself is overpowered is silly, you can still easily lose players when pushing chokes to traps, and if the other team focuses the medic they can still kill the combo, even if they don't have a counter uber, so long as they are prepared.

While I don't think it's a problem now, I have to agree that it might cause a few problems in the long run, especially with the mirror jumping. There will eventually be a team that's able to do that crazy shit that makes ubers obsolete, and while that does cause a metagame shift I'm not sure it'll shift in a particularly good direction. The stock medigun is pretty much the best item in the game, and if it's being made obsolete by its alternatives then there's a pretty serious problem.

How about we wait and see how LAN plays out before we go into the usual cycle of calling everything new bad

Again, look back to the release of gunboats. Roamers were then able to do "crazy shit" in comparison to what they could do with only a shotgun. Look back at some of the greatest roamers to have played since the release of gunboats. An example of how gunboats have turned roamers into a role that can do "crazy shit", at least in comparison to their once more limited capabilities, would be fast rollouts. The Process rollout, the Gullywash rollout and the Granary rollout (albeit this rollout alternative slowly becoming unnecessary as rolling out to catwalk is becoming more popular) wouldn't even be a thing.

The ways you can play a map and the ways you can play a class don't necessarily become obsolete because you discover a better replacement. Rolling out through Badlands' valley was hardly done until quite recently (2009/2010?) and rolling out house was the go to plan. Considering that, not many scouts would decide to rollout to choke. Hell, before valley was used as the main rollout, backburner pyros did really well in unexpected valley rollouts to the other team's closet. The backburner pyro through closet strategy can still work, but no one ever really does it considering everyone always looks to valley first, but the idea and the possibility of it working aren't completely gone.

As much as I dislike defy, I'm going to play the devil's advocate here. On a big last point, say snakewater, there's ALOT of ground to cover to get near the fight. But with the quick fix you can jump in and have a much more efficient uber. Since you can cap while the quick fix is active, it makes it nearly impossible to kite UNLESS you also have the fix. When your holding snakewater last there's also no reason to not have the fix because it makes kiting uber a breeze. So while kritz is still effective against quick fix, uber is not. I'm not sure I like the default medigun being countered so hard. BUT we should se how lan goes then decide.

If you find that qf is causing you to struggle on 5 cp, just have your demo run scotch rez trap every choke/door with 6 stickies, and tell him that this is the new meta and to enjoy it.

This is exactly what is going to end up happening. Any time I played vs a team using quick fix I was basically just setting traps.

quickfix is a fucking awesome weapon, I've had so much fun pugscrimming with it, there is almost no stalemates at all.
you get a chance to defend last if you wiped at mid.
if a team is running quickfix they're forced to break stalemates quickly as soon as they get the charge, which is a cool thing, I'd rather see a stalemate break after whatever time the quickfix takes to charge instead of fucking 40s + the time it takes to get a random pick.
as medic, ordering people to jump you around is fucking great, and fun. you have a much more decisive role in dm fights because you can actually heal lit teammates and they'll heal in a reasonable time.
this weapon just adds to the game, you need to know what the other medic's uber is so you can adapt to it, so someone on your team must see what they're running if you don't know.
also the usefulness of the gun depends on the map, quickfix on last can be huge on maps like snakewater, granary or metalwork, but regular uber on badlands and gullywash is still better because everyone is usually within flashable distance.

the only real OP thing that this weapon has is that you can add cap time while charge is active, so if you manage to get your combo to point, which is easy and fast, its gg.

edit: if teams could also learn to have incredible good focus fire, you can shut down quickfix completely, which only makes the game more interesting

this statement is perfectly true if you replace quickfix with kritz as well

ban pls

only thing OP is the fact that you can cap points while the charge is being used. if they fixed that i think it's perfectly fine.

If the opposite team use their uber correctly, they can be invulnerable on the point and stop the quick-fix cap very easily.

You're not invincible, stickies can still kill you. IMO saying that is like saying you shouldnt be able to cap points with kritz or vaccinator. I understand that kritz and vaccinator (somewhat) don't give you any buffs against damage apart from the normal healing rate. But i just think it'd be unfair if you could cap points while you're invincible and with the quickfix you're not invincible.

Just look at this: medic has 180 health when charge is being used. That's 2 sticks under his feet and he's dead or if you focus the soldier that's 250 hp if i'm correct that's 3 sticks under his feet.

The quickfix is useless against burst damage. If people walk on the point it baits attention and if everyone would shoot there. that's: 2 rockets lets say 70 damage each on medic and healing target + let's say that the demo didnt have point sticked. That's going to be 1 sicky 70-80 damage to both medic and healing target + 2 scouts lets count them for 30 damage each. that's: ~270/280 damage in about 1 second. Medic will be dead for sure. and then you just have to kill the soldier (who shouldnt be buffed anymore). And killing soldiers on point isnt a problem as long as you're alive.

Last points caps too fast to be able to kill both targets while being quickfixed. It also requires the attention of at least 3 of the defending players, at which point the rest of the offending team can just come in and completely crush the defending team while they're not paying attention to them.

Alright, didn't really think of that. my bad.

How will they do that when they don't have uber?

block cap with one player (or more; just whatever works), kill them with two soldiers or a demoman

seeing as you're getting two free punishment kills if you shut them down and the rest of their team is less buffed than you can be I don't see what the problem is. just because you're forced to do a new thing /as a team/ in order to handle the situation doesn't mean it's inherently bad. if you had to behave differently as an individual to the point of switching to an item you hate using or don't have then that would be a problem, but I haven't read a good complaint about that yet.

QF: Fuck your zoning
Invuln: Fuck your power
Kritz: Fuck your health

lets talk about gunboats

The quickfix isn't broken, kritz will always counter it, if you can aim that is, and any team that can focus fire can outdamage the heal rate.

The quickfix has a very heavy pro and con list compared to the other medigun too.

Kritz > Quickfix
Uber = Quickfix
Uber < Kritz