After having lead a team in the freshmeat cup:
The buddy system is a great idea. Having an experienced player teach and guide other players massively helps them overcome certain prerequisites to fully integrate into comp TF2 and get them more experienced - like fermenting new yoghurt by putting in old yoghurt. Keeping them on medic is a no brainer too, since a medic maincaller is limited anyway, and if anything it helps enemy teams out by practicing killing experienced players with better jukes than the average open/low medic.
One thing I have a gripe with is logs weren't taken into consideration. The fact that a player could have 2k+ logs on tf2center/pugs but less than 10 open officials (or no open playoff+ experience) can participate with a casual guy that just wants to try out comp tf2 is crazy to me. I feel this cup should have catered to the bottom half of the table at the start of the knockout stages, because it gives the impression that these players should be as good as these 2k+ log / elo players, and I don't think them getting 5-0'd a ton helps their confidence a lot.
Also I think a team simply having an experienced buddy is a huge advantage, compared to a team full of freshmeat; each team should have been given someone atleast to guide them - how are freshmeat players supposed to even find mentors or any contacts if they haven't played comp at all
On a final note, I think there should be a pug discord solely for freshmeat players and experienced buddies to help them out. The cup was great but these guys should play together as a whole and getting integrated more into the pug scene can be huge for them. Just some food for thought
After having lead a team in the freshmeat cup:
The buddy system is a great idea. Having an experienced player teach and guide other players massively helps them overcome certain prerequisites to fully integrate into comp TF2 and get them more experienced - like fermenting new yoghurt by putting in old yoghurt. Keeping them on medic is a no brainer too, since a medic maincaller is limited anyway, and if anything it helps enemy teams out by practicing killing experienced players with better jukes than the average open/low medic.
One thing I have a gripe with is logs weren't taken into consideration. The fact that a player could have 2k+ logs on tf2center/pugs but less than 10 open officials (or no open playoff+ experience) can participate with a casual guy that just wants to try out comp tf2 is crazy to me. I feel this cup should have catered to the bottom half of the table at the start of the knockout stages, because it gives the impression that these players should be as good as these 2k+ log / elo players, and I don't think them getting 5-0'd a ton helps their confidence a lot.
Also I think a team simply having an experienced buddy is a huge advantage, compared to a team full of freshmeat; each team should have been given someone atleast to guide them - how are freshmeat players supposed to even find mentors or any contacts if they haven't played comp at all
On a final note, I think there should be a pug discord solely for freshmeat players and experienced buddies to help them out. The cup was great but these guys should play together as a whole and getting integrated more into the pug scene can be huge for them. Just some food for thought
oh man where was this we would have casted this
oh man where was this we would have casted this
The "skill restrictions" should still apply to meds. there's no fun and no point in getting stomped on 5CP by a team with a med who plays prem, even if they don't main med. med maincalling may be limited but the ability of the maincaller has infinitely more weight. also it's a fresh meat tournament. for beginners!
The "skill restrictions" should still apply to meds. there's no fun and no point in getting stomped on 5CP by a team with a med who plays prem, even if they don't main med. med maincalling may be limited but the ability of the maincaller has infinitely more weight. also it's a fresh meat tournament. for beginners!
RAONICALIASThe "skill restrictions" should still apply to meds. there's no fun and no point in getting stomped on 5CP by a team with a med who plays prem, even if they don't main med. med maincalling may be limited but the ability of the maincaller has infinitely more weight. also it's a fresh meat tournament. for beginners!
Oh I forgot to mention but another key point would be prem/d1 players should not be able to join this for these reasons given - mid/d2 is fine enough for freshmeat, as players in that range have a decent grasp on what roles the other classes have and how comms & maincalls are supposed to be. There are so many fundamentals that freshmeat players still need to grasp on, having a maincaller with the ability to micro his 5 other players aswell can be really unfair
[quote=RAONICALIAS]The "skill restrictions" should still apply to meds. there's no fun and no point in getting stomped on 5CP by a team with a med who plays prem, even if they don't main med. med maincalling may be limited but the ability of the maincaller has infinitely more weight. also it's a fresh meat tournament. for beginners![/quote]
Oh I forgot to mention but another key point would be prem/d1 players should not be able to join this for these reasons given - mid/d2 is fine enough for freshmeat, as players in that range have a decent grasp on what roles the other classes have and how comms & maincalls are supposed to be. There are so many fundamentals that freshmeat players still need to grasp on, having a maincaller with the ability to micro his 5 other players aswell can be really unfair
The point of the cup is to introduce new players to comp. Banning people from helping new players just because ur so obsessed with winning helps no one
The point of the cup is to introduce new players to comp. Banning people from helping new players just because ur so obsessed with winning helps no one
Yeah every fresh meat cup before was also won by like lobby/mix lords with 3000 logs/MGE gremlins (nas boii won it twice lmao), it's a bit of a shame when you're getting stomped by them but as long as the whole cup isn't like that I don't see why we should change it, the point of the cup is more to show what comp is like and for new players to make connections so they can keep making teams and signing up.
Also to be fair you can be a lobby lord and a newbie at the same time as well, I think especially for like young people putting yourself in a voice call with 5 people you never met can be a bit daunting and so it might be easier to grind in spaces where you don't have to speak and so I think this type of player being in the cup is completely fine, they also have to learn to comm.
Yeah every fresh meat cup before was also won by like lobby/mix lords with 3000 logs/MGE gremlins (nas boii won it twice lmao), it's a bit of a shame when you're getting stomped by them but as long as the whole cup isn't like that I don't see why we should change it, the point of the cup is more to show what comp is like and for new players to make connections so they can keep making teams and signing up.
Also to be fair you can be a lobby lord and a newbie at the same time as well, I think especially for like young people putting yourself in a voice call with 5 people you never met can be a bit daunting and so it might be easier to grind in spaces where you don't have to speak and so I think this type of player being in the cup is completely fine, they also have to learn to comm.
Aelkyr(nas boii won it twice lmao)
Wrong, he lost the 2nd one and I have the medal to prove it
Nas stay losing
[quote=Aelkyr](nas boii won it twice lmao)
[/quote]
Wrong, he lost the 2nd one and I have the medal to prove it
Nas stay losing
I think it's fine to have experienced medics
Having decent meta calls instead of whatever a fresh meat maincaller comes up with is a more accurate representation of competitive
And if you restrict the buddies completely, a couple teams will have a discord screenshare maincaller. Has happened before
logs aren't an accurate representation of experience.
I consider it on par with comparing MGE elo or TF2 hours played
I feel it'd be weird to have ppl who have interest in comp (playing centers for example), but not give them an opportunity. Perhaps they never found ppl they were comfortable playing with on a team, or they couldn't invest the time in the past, or they didn't know where to start
I think it's fine to have experienced medics
Having decent meta calls instead of whatever a fresh meat maincaller comes up with is a more accurate representation of competitive
And if you restrict the buddies completely, a couple teams will have a discord screenshare maincaller. Has happened before
logs aren't an accurate representation of experience.
I consider it on par with comparing MGE elo or TF2 hours played
I feel it'd be weird to have ppl who have interest in comp (playing centers for example), but not give them an opportunity. Perhaps they never found ppl they were comfortable playing with on a team, or they couldn't invest the time in the past, or they didn't know where to start
RAONICALIASThe "skill restrictions" should still apply to meds. there's no fun and no point in getting stomped on 5CP by a team with a med who plays prem, even if they don't main med. med maincalling may be limited but the ability of the maincaller has infinitely more weight. also it's a fresh meat tournament. for beginners!
that's assuming the other 5 can listen
and on another hand it gives them a sense of what being experienced in the game looks like
about the lobby lords: be careful not to draw too much players out of the tournament. the game is already small enough, so it could hurt tourney attendance.
about nas boii winning it twice: how is it that you are still considered fresh meat after winning the cup? doesnt that make you "graduate" even if no open experience already?
[quote=RAONICALIAS]The "skill restrictions" should still apply to meds. there's no fun and no point in getting stomped on 5CP by a team with a med who plays prem, even if they don't main med. med maincalling may be limited but the ability of the maincaller has infinitely more weight. also it's a fresh meat tournament. for beginners![/quote]
that's assuming the other 5 can listen
and on another hand it gives them a sense of what being experienced in the game looks like
about the lobby lords: be careful not to draw too much players out of the tournament. the game is already small enough, so it could hurt tourney attendance.
about nas boii winning it twice: how is it that you are still considered fresh meat after winning the cup? doesnt that make you "graduate" even if no open experience already?
i'd love to hear from newbie medics to know if they felt their experience was made worse by the allowance of buddy medics, since i'd imagine it may make it very difficult for aspiring newbie medic mains since everyone would want an experienced mentor medic.
edit: FYI we never allowed buddy medics in TFNew partially for this reason. we never had an issue finding keen newbie medic players.
i'd love to hear from newbie medics to know if they felt their experience was made worse by the allowance of buddy medics, since i'd imagine it may make it very difficult for aspiring newbie medic mains since everyone would want an experienced mentor medic.
edit: FYI we never allowed buddy medics in TFNew partially for this reason. we never had an issue finding keen newbie medic players.
Toba couple teams will have a discord screenshare maincaller.
Honestly as long as the person is rostered, and ETF2L are ok with it, I don't see any problem with this. They'll still only be able to see one players POV anyway.
Maybe bringing back the kaidus spec plugin from the 7 days could be nice for fresh meat.
[quote=Tob]a couple teams will have a discord screenshare maincaller.[/quote]
Honestly as long as the person is rostered, and ETF2L are ok with it, I don't see any problem with this. They'll still only be able to see one players POV anyway.
Maybe bringing back the kaidus spec plugin from the 7 days could be nice for fresh meat.
Maybe the buddy can coach live during the officials. Like kaidus did on se7en.
Maybe the buddy can coach live during the officials. Like kaidus did on se7en.
Why can't you have an experienced player guide and mentor new players without actually playing on the team? Taking a spot that could have gone to a new player seems counterproductive - in fact, you're taking multiple spots because once one team rosters an experienced medic every other team is at a disadvantage if they don't - and newbie medics should be fostered too.
Why can't you have an experienced player guide and mentor new players without actually playing on the team? Taking a spot that could have gone to a new player seems counterproductive - in fact, you're taking multiple spots because once one team rosters an experienced medic every other team is at a disadvantage if they don't - and newbie medics should be fostered too.
make sure the 'how to exec a config' guide is in big bold letters on the cup page to avoid this
make sure the 'how to exec a config' guide is in big bold letters on the cup page to avoid [url=https://etf2l.org/matches/85577/]this[/url]
JWBi'd love to hear from newbie medics to know if they felt their experience was made worse by the allowance of buddy medics, since i'd imagine it may make it very difficult for aspiring newbie medic mains since everyone would want an experienced mentor medic.
edit: FYI we never allowed buddy medics in TFNew partially for this reason. we never had an issue finding keen newbie medic players.
If a buddy is allowed to play, it can only be medic. That being said, it does lead to a shortage of medics being introduced into the game. That's the only issue I ever had with this. A lot of buddies want to play - which is understandable- but doing so prevents newbies from playing and learning the class.
Medic is probably the most unpopular class to begin with...
On the other hand I imagine there would be much less people willing to buddy / mentor a team if they couldn't participate.
[quote=JWB]i'd love to hear from newbie medics to know if they felt their experience was made worse by the allowance of buddy medics, since i'd imagine it may make it very difficult for aspiring newbie medic mains since everyone would want an experienced mentor medic.
edit: FYI we never allowed buddy medics in TFNew partially for this reason. we never had an issue finding keen newbie medic players.[/quote]
If a buddy is allowed to play, it can only be medic. That being said, it does lead to a shortage of medics being introduced into the game. That's the only issue I ever had with this. A lot of buddies want to play - which is understandable- but doing so prevents newbies from playing and learning the class.
Medic is probably the most unpopular class to begin with...
On the other hand I imagine there would be much less people willing to buddy / mentor a team if they couldn't participate.
punkmake sure the 'how to exec a config' guide is in big bold letters on the cup page to avoid this
pls tell me there's a vod of this
[quote=punk]make sure the 'how to exec a config' guide is in big bold letters on the cup page to avoid [url=https://etf2l.org/matches/85577/]this[/url][/quote]
pls tell me there's a vod of this
DCSOn the other hand I imagine there would be much less people willing to buddy / mentor a team if they couldn't participate.
that's a question worth surveying tbh. I feel like post coach kaidus, no delay streaming and tools like discord like Tob said much more people would find this fun
[quote=DCS]
On the other hand I imagine there would be much less people willing to buddy / mentor a team if they couldn't participate.[/quote]
that's a question worth surveying tbh. I feel like post coach kaidus, no delay streaming and tools like discord like Tob said much more people would find this fun