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cp_villa (5CP)
31
#31
4 Frags +

Ok first of all I quite like the B13 changes and the general aesthetic is pretty cool as well.

Generally, my opinion of the map is that it's promising, but still needs some improvements before its on the level of the maps played in ETF2L currently. The two main issues for me are that mid is too small and last is kind of awkward :

-Mid is just too cramped. Right now every midfight I've seen is just an instant DM fest because both soldiers can high jump into the enemy team pretty much unopposed. You can't use flanking routes because by the time you've completed the flank the mid is over, you can't rotate because the mid is too small to do so and your med will die a lot even if you win the mid. Another issue that I did not see so far but could rise is that holding mid looks really simple as every entrance are a stone's throw from each other.

-Last is too segmented ? Not sure if this is the correct word but basically last is divided in really distinct areas with big walls in between them (especially the really thick white wall that's over the point), which makes it harder to apply pressure from one part of the last to another and so a lot of close fights end up with teams on opposite sides of the same wall, spamming. It also greatly limit sentries. Moving the point a bit forward (and maybe slowing down the cap time to make it fair) would be an interesting idea, as teams would be able to play and defend it from more angles than the awkward staredown we have right now.

That said, i think the map has a pretty good flow to it (mid's really small size actually helps that tbf) and second is really really good. You can do plenty of stuff on it, both Fountain and the flank near the truck are useful, its fun to push into, its fun to push out of last, I wouldnt change anything on that.

Ok first of all I quite like the B13 changes and the general aesthetic is pretty cool as well.

Generally, my opinion of the map is that it's promising, but still needs some improvements before its on the level of the maps played in ETF2L currently. The two main issues for me are that mid is too small and last is kind of awkward :

-Mid is just too cramped. Right now every midfight I've seen is just an instant DM fest because both soldiers can high jump into the enemy team pretty much unopposed. You can't use flanking routes because by the time you've completed the flank the mid is over, you can't rotate because the mid is too small to do so and your med will die a lot even if you win the mid. Another issue that I did not see so far but could rise is that holding mid looks really simple as every entrance are a stone's throw from each other.

-Last is too segmented ? Not sure if this is the correct word but basically last is divided in really distinct areas with big walls in between them (especially the really thick white wall that's over the point), which makes it harder to apply pressure from one part of the last to another and so a lot of close fights end up with teams on opposite sides of the same wall, spamming. It also greatly limit sentries. Moving the point a bit forward (and maybe slowing down the cap time to make it fair) would be an interesting idea, as teams would be able to play and defend it from more angles than the awkward staredown we have right now.

That said, i think the map has a pretty good flow to it (mid's really small size actually helps that tbf) and second is really really good. You can do plenty of stuff on it, both Fountain and the flank near the truck are useful, its fun to push into, its fun to push out of last, I wouldnt change anything on that.
32
#32
0 Frags +

The changes were pretty good QoL stuff but I feel like every point has the same issue in that it's pretty hard to hold doors properly so ur combo has to stand in some awkward positions that seem to be really easy to punish once they get through the doors, The changes on the mid doors made it slightly easier to deal with but still feels difficult to hold (maybe that's ur intention then fair enough)

I think Last and pushing out of the lobby on last need to be reworked, the last feels impossible to hold, your combo has to guess which door their not going in to even have a chance, rotating feels like all you do is walk your combo into a deathpit and then when you try and push out ur pushing either low ground surrounded by massive highground differences (main shutter for example) or you walk through a choke where you can't see anything till you've committed, so you walk in, spend 5s looking for traps and hiders and then they get to read where ur combo is and can hardstack ur flank and they just get fucked purely because you can't really see them till it's too late, even when testing aggressive ubers same thing happened, you'd kill their combo but it wouldn't matter cos u need so many players to hold the lobby properly you just get punished even if your uber does work, trading felt okay if you could force them but they can literally have 2 300 health soldiers hiding around a corner which u cant see at all till you actually commit, so if they see you early you get instagibbed in whatever door you decide to push.

my suggestions on how to fix is maybe remove a door from last or make it so theres a more structured highground near spawn that's more intuitive to hold and possibly make one of the doors in lobby to push out easy to bomb through (every door u walk through a doorframe into a box which has a roof and another doorframe to get through) cos atm it's like even if you clear the door they can just play timings and run past you when you clear the area cos there's too many corners

The changes were pretty good QoL stuff but I feel like every point has the same issue in that it's pretty hard to hold doors properly so ur combo has to stand in some awkward positions that seem to be really easy to punish once they get through the doors, The changes on the mid doors made it slightly easier to deal with but still feels difficult to hold (maybe that's ur intention then fair enough)

I think Last and pushing out of the lobby on last need to be reworked, the last feels impossible to hold, your combo has to guess which door their not going in to even have a chance, rotating feels like all you do is walk your combo into a deathpit and then when you try and push out ur pushing either low ground surrounded by massive highground differences (main shutter for example) or you walk through a choke where you can't see anything till you've committed, so you walk in, spend 5s looking for traps and hiders and then they get to read where ur combo is and can hardstack ur flank and they just get fucked purely because you can't really see them till it's too late, even when testing aggressive ubers same thing happened, you'd kill their combo but it wouldn't matter cos u need so many players to hold the lobby properly you just get punished even if your uber does work, trading felt okay if you could force them but they can literally have 2 300 health soldiers hiding around a corner which u cant see at all till you actually commit, so if they see you early you get instagibbed in whatever door you decide to push.

my suggestions on how to fix is maybe remove a door from last or make it so theres a more structured highground near spawn that's more intuitive to hold and possibly make one of the doors in lobby to push out easy to bomb through (every door u walk through a doorframe into a box which has a roof and another doorframe to get through) cos atm it's like even if you clear the door they can just play timings and run past you when you clear the area cos there's too many corners
33
#33
Villa/Scourge
3 Frags +

I just made a B14 test version, you can download it here

The following changes have been made:
Misc changes
- Added Rick May memorials outside last
- Removed bricks from elbow and added double doors instead (purely decorative)
- Made some minor fixes to clipping, texturing, etc.
Changes to last geometry
- Added some height variation behind the point on last
- Moved the last point slightly forward (away from spawn)
- Added perches to the big hedge walls on last for jumping classes to stand on
- Made the tunnel into cellar tighter so it is riskier to push
Changes to make last easier to push out of
- Changed the respawn timer for the team attacking last from 6 seconds to 7.5 seconds
- Added a one-way window in cafe that looks out onto second

I think I listed all the big changes there, but I could have forgotten some. Please test this in pug groups, scrims, whatever. If I receive no complaints about these changes, I will make this the official B14 version.

I just made a B14 test version, you can download it [url=https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JkYSfag47Xf70pVs7lzsXYuz_A0a0b5_/view?usp=sharing]here[/url]

The following changes have been made:
[u]Misc changes[/u]
- Added Rick May memorials outside last
- Removed bricks from elbow and added double doors instead (purely decorative)
- Made some minor fixes to clipping, texturing, etc.
[u]Changes to last geometry[/u]
- Added some height variation behind the point on last
- Moved the last point slightly forward (away from spawn)
- Added perches to the big hedge walls on last for jumping classes to stand on
- Made the tunnel into cellar tighter so it is riskier to push
[u]Changes to make last easier to push out of[/u]
- Changed the respawn timer for the team attacking last from 6 seconds to 7.5 seconds
- Added a one-way window in cafe that looks out onto second

I think I listed all the big changes there, but I could have forgotten some. Please test this in pug groups, scrims, whatever. If I receive no complaints about these changes, I will make this the official B14 version.
34
#34
Villa/Scourge
0 Frags +

The changes from the post above have been implemented in the official B14 version, in addition to the following change:

- Adjusted the wooden pole in truck so players don't need to jump to get on top of it

The changes from the post above have been implemented in the official B14 version, in addition to the following change:

- Adjusted the wooden pole in truck so players don't need to jump to get on top of it
35
#35
Villa/Scourge
0 Frags +

Added callouts for Villa B14
https://tf2maps.net/attachments/villab14callouts-png.124268/

Added callouts for Villa B14
https://tf2maps.net/attachments/villab14callouts-png.124268/
36
#36
3 Frags +

I played this map in a few scrims and I was like

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjUqUVrXclE

Edit: I only played Demonman on it but I had fun.

I played this map in a few scrims and I was like

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjUqUVrXclE[/youtube]

Edit: I only played Demonman on it but I had fun.
37
#37
Villa/Scourge
1 Frags +

Just compiled a test version of B15, with a new exit out of lobby into second to make pushing out of last easier. You can download it here. There is a new test version, the only change is that small healthkits have been added to rollout. Map name is cp_villa_bpre15_2, download it here.

This is just a test version, not an official version. I have not decided whether to implement these changes for Season 3.

Just compiled a test version of B15, with a new exit out of lobby into second to make pushing out of last easier. [s]You can download it [url=https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GKeS2_t6X4JbZwt1Ulw9wsOhRBwQUUqA/view?usp=sharing]here[/url].[/s] There is a new test version, the only change is that small healthkits have been added to rollout. Map name is cp_villa_bpre15_2, download it [url=https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-uqS0_2jgh76-wNhXuBVjcPJwXRqypzV/view?usp=sharing]here[/url].

This is just a test version, not an official version. I have not decided whether to implement these changes for Season 3.
38
#38
Villa/Scourge
1 Frags +

B15 Update:
The changes from the experimental version have been implemented in an official release on TF2Maps.

B15 Update:
The changes from the experimental version have been implemented in an official release on TF2Maps.
39
#39
Villa/Scourge
1 Frags +

Uploaded B15 to the Steam Workshop

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2113052569

Uploaded B15 to the Steam Workshop

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2113052569
40
#40
2 Frags +

Pugging on the map today, found a couple of things:
There's a clip poking up that can occasionally block movement in front of the forwards on mid
You can completely hide stickies in the rocks leading up to 2nd and in the top portion of the fountain
https://imgur.com/a/fmnwzC6

EDIT
there's also this funky place only on red 2nd
https://i.imgur.com/GVI1SNh.png

Pugging on the map today, found a couple of things:
There's a clip poking up that can occasionally block movement in front of the forwards on mid
You can completely hide stickies in the rocks leading up to 2nd and in the top portion of the fountain
https://imgur.com/a/fmnwzC6

EDIT
there's also this funky place only on red 2nd
https://i.imgur.com/GVI1SNh.png
41
#41
3 Frags +

https://streamable.com/9ptyy4

https://www.twitch.tv/habib_6ix_god/clip/CarefulApatheticRaccoonVoteYea

People were bugging out and getting stuck in this spot in front of library/books

https://streamable.com/9ptyy4

https://www.twitch.tv/habib_6ix_god/clip/CarefulApatheticRaccoonVoteYea

People were bugging out and getting stuck in this spot in front of library/books
42
#42
Villa/Scourge
5 Frags +
skeezhttps://streamable.com/9ptyy4

https://www.twitch.tv/habib_6ix_god/clip/CarefulApatheticRaccoonVoteYea

People were bugging out and getting stuck in this spot in front of library/books
SquidamatronPugging on the map today, found a couple of things:
There's a clip poking up that can occasionally block movement in front of the forwards on mid
You can completely hide stickies in the rocks leading up to 2nd and in the top portion of the fountain
https://imgur.com/a/fmnwzC6

EDIT
there's also this funky place only on red 2nd
https://i.imgur.com/GVI1SNh.png

I will make these fixes as soon as I can. Don't think a version change is allowed at this point, but I will make sure this is fixed after the season, or perhaps after Villa week in Newcomer-Adv, if RGL allows it.

EDIT: The map will be updated after this week with the new clipping fixes.

[quote=skeez]https://streamable.com/9ptyy4

https://www.twitch.tv/habib_6ix_god/clip/CarefulApatheticRaccoonVoteYea

People were bugging out and getting stuck in this spot in front of library/books[/quote]

[quote=Squidamatron]Pugging on the map today, found a couple of things:
There's a clip poking up that can occasionally block movement in front of the forwards on mid
You can completely hide stickies in the rocks leading up to 2nd and in the top portion of the fountain
https://imgur.com/a/fmnwzC6

EDIT
there's also this funky place only on red 2nd
https://i.imgur.com/GVI1SNh.png[/quote]

I will make these fixes as soon as I can. Don't think a version change is allowed at this point, but I will make sure this is fixed after the season, or perhaps after Villa week in Newcomer-Adv, if RGL allows it.

EDIT: The map will be updated after this week with the new clipping fixes.
43
#43
Villa/Scourge
2 Frags +

B15A Update:

These minor QoL changes have no effect on gameplay and layout, they are just bugfixes and minor visual tweaks.

Clipping fixes
- Fixed an issue where players could get caught on terrain in front of mid forward spawn
- Improved clipping between the big rock and the wooden platform around spire on second
- Fixed collision of rocks on second to prevent hiding stickies inside them
- Simplified the collision of all the hedges on maps to make them more splash-friendly
- Fixed standing spots above red choke and batts
- Added smoothing clipping in various spots around the map
- Changed collision on the fence in the lower right entrance into last to better match the model
Visual changes
- Altered the 3D skybox
- Optimized grass displacements around the map by converting them from power 3 to power 2
- Added stairs by the lower right entrance into last where there was previously just a displacement slope

EDIT: Fixed missing textures/models with B15B update

B15A Update:

These minor QoL changes have no effect on gameplay and layout, they are just bugfixes and minor visual tweaks.

[u]Clipping fixes[/u]
- Fixed an issue where players could get caught on terrain in front of mid forward spawn
- Improved clipping between the big rock and the wooden platform around spire on second
- Fixed collision of rocks on second to prevent hiding stickies inside them
- Simplified the collision of all the hedges on maps to make them more splash-friendly
- Fixed standing spots above red choke and batts
- Added smoothing clipping in various spots around the map
- Changed collision on the fence in the lower right entrance into last to better match the model
[u]Visual changes[/u]
- Altered the 3D skybox
- Optimized grass displacements around the map by converting them from power 3 to power 2
- Added stairs by the lower right entrance into last where there was previously just a displacement slope

EDIT: Fixed missing textures/models with B15B update
44
#44
newbie.tf
8 Frags +

https://youtu.be/X1F-opvz7gs

[youtube]https://youtu.be/X1F-opvz7gs[/youtube]
45
#45
Villa/Scourge
0 Frags +

I compiled a test version of B16 that addresses some of the concerns I've heard from players this past season, download it here - filename is cp_villa_bpre16.

CHANGES:
Last
- Tightened up the space behind point on last by adding new ledges that stick out from the wall and pushing spawn exits forward
- Added more cover to right side of last and altered the stairs there
- Made the entrance from dungeon into last tighter by adding a pillar
- Raised the fence in the top right to the point where it can't be reached by a single jump
-Adjusted stone fence clipping to better fit the model
Second
- Moved the medium healthpack on mid to the other side of the choke so it is now on second to make the fast demo rollout less powerful - demos can still do the fast rollout now, they just will get to mid with less health
- Turned the fence by cafe into a much taller brush-based fence that players can't stand on
- Added a light by choke to brighten that area up
- Added a partial wall to the rollout exit to slow down flanks a bit
Mid
- Added a small healthkit on the roof above the point
- Turned the wall behind the towers into a clipped-off area that recedes into the wall so its harder to hit with splash - this change was meant to help with medic survivability in midfights
Other changes
- Made performance improvements throughout the map - removing some details, fixing some parts of the map rendering when they aren't supposed to, etc.
- Adjusted some of the lamp props that were being used to hide stickytraps by repositioning the lamps (in left-side lobby), changing the model entirely (in rollout), or adding a new prop to block damage from the stickies (in library)
- Increased base respawn wave times from 9 seconds to 10 seconds, which is the wave time for pretty much every other 5cp map in rotation except Gullywash

I compiled a test version of B16 that addresses some of the concerns I've heard from players this past season, download it [url=https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PZA8neRBT-gbM7bher9kkhtX1Or-ff0l/view?usp=sharing]here[/url] - filename is cp_villa_bpre16.

CHANGES:
[u]Last[/u]
- Tightened up the space behind point on last by adding new ledges that stick out from the wall and pushing spawn exits forward
- Added more cover to right side of last and altered the stairs there
- Made the entrance from dungeon into last tighter by adding a pillar
- Raised the fence in the top right to the point where it can't be reached by a single jump
-Adjusted stone fence clipping to better fit the model
[u]Second[/u]
- Moved the medium healthpack on mid to the other side of the choke so it is now on second to make the fast demo rollout less powerful - demos can still do the fast rollout now, they just will get to mid with less health
- Turned the fence by cafe into a much taller brush-based fence that players can't stand on
- Added a light by choke to brighten that area up
- Added a partial wall to the rollout exit to slow down flanks a bit
[u]Mid[/u]
- Added a small healthkit on the roof above the point
- Turned the wall behind the towers into a clipped-off area that recedes into the wall so its harder to hit with splash - this change was meant to help with medic survivability in midfights
[u]Other changes[/u]
- Made performance improvements throughout the map - removing some details, fixing some parts of the map rendering when they aren't supposed to, etc.
- Adjusted some of the lamp props that were being used to hide stickytraps by repositioning the lamps (in left-side lobby), changing the model entirely (in rollout), or adding a new prop to block damage from the stickies (in library)
- Increased base respawn wave times from 9 seconds to 10 seconds, which is the wave time for pretty much every other 5cp map in rotation except Gullywash
46
#46
newbie.tf
0 Frags +

Raised fence does a lot to make the aggressive defense less free

As a soldier I look forward to playing on the new geometry behind last; i think it's gonna be annoying for others though

I get slightly better frames on last and second now that the props and stuff aren't rendering from both in OOB area

I'm really glad heavy can't get on the hedge anymore that was annoying

Curious to see how mid plays out with less health. It was a mid before that required aggression, and I hope this emphasizes that without making it impossible to do stuff as soldier

Ty for fixing the cubemaps they were weird. Same with lobby lamps

Good stuff in this update!!

Raised fence does a lot to make the aggressive defense less free

As a soldier I look forward to playing on the new geometry behind last; i think it's gonna be annoying for others though

I get slightly better frames on last and second now that the props and stuff aren't rendering from both in OOB area

I'm really glad heavy can't get on the hedge anymore that was annoying

Curious to see how mid plays out with less health. It was a mid before that required aggression, and I hope this emphasizes that without making it impossible to do stuff as soldier

Ty for fixing the cubemaps they were weird. Same with lobby lamps

Good stuff in this update!!
47
#47
Villa/Scourge
0 Frags +

After testing the changes, I decided I went a bit too far with some of them, so I've made changes in cp_villa_bpre16_v2 that address these flaws:
- Removed the partial wall in rollout
- Added small healthkits to the towers on mid

Download the latest test version here

After testing the changes, I decided I went a bit too far with some of them, so I've made changes in cp_villa_bpre16_v2 that address these flaws:
- Removed the partial wall in rollout
- Added small healthkits to the towers on mid

Download the latest test version [url=https://drive.google.com/file/d/12H0jV9jRRhIODJaAgzvnvnwjJuNyWxRK/view?usp=sharing]here[/url]
48
#48
Spaceship Servers
-2 Frags +

added dm spawns for b15b btw https://github.com/Lange/SOAP-TF2DM/pull/96

added dm spawns for b15b btw https://github.com/Lange/SOAP-TF2DM/pull/96
49
#49
Villa/Scourge
1 Frags +

Thank you to everyone that provided feedback in the postseason survey for RGL. I went through all the feedback I got and compiled a list of complaints. By far the most common complaints were that second is too hard to hold, second favors stalemates/is hard to sac into, and second felt too big because of how much open space there was between the entrances to second and the point. There were also some issues raised with last, but I feel like I addressed these with the first test version and would like to see more testing before making further changes. So here's v3 of the B16 test version (filename cp_villa_bpre16_v3), with the following changes:

- Completely redesigned choke: removed double doors, added a Sunshine-style fence on second, re-aligned the stairs on second
- Raised the small wall by fountain
- Replaced the rocks that overlook fountain with a grass ramp - a scout standing here could get splashed now
- Straightened out the fence by the exit from fountain to make bombing slightly easier
- Reworked the exit from library into second: added a new exit, expanded the size of library while adding a bookshelf to block a sightline that was opened up by the new exit
- Added an extended batts area above the shutter on second to provide a safer area for holding passive (note: you can fall off the back of batts, this is an intended feature)
- Added a window to the shutter into last so it's less risky to push

Thank you to everyone that provided feedback in the postseason survey for RGL. I went through all the feedback I got and compiled a list of complaints. By far the most common complaints were that second is too hard to hold, second favors stalemates/is hard to sac into, and second felt too big because of how much open space there was between the entrances to second and the point. There were also some issues raised with last, but I feel like I addressed these with the first test version and would like to see more testing before making further changes. So [url=https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ak-x8xr8VcP1m2Cn_yoYzw5kgdB-9ifF/view?usp=sharing]here's v3 of the B16 test version[/url] (filename cp_villa_bpre16_v3), with the following changes:

- Completely redesigned choke: removed double doors, added a Sunshine-style fence on second, re-aligned the stairs on second
- Raised the small wall by fountain
- Replaced the rocks that overlook fountain with a grass ramp - a scout standing here could get splashed now
- Straightened out the fence by the exit from fountain to make bombing slightly easier
- Reworked the exit from library into second: added a new exit, expanded the size of library while adding a bookshelf to block a sightline that was opened up by the new exit
- Added an extended batts area above the shutter on second to provide a safer area for holding passive (note: you can fall off the back of batts, this is an intended feature)
- Added a window to the shutter into last so it's less risky to push
50
#50
0 Frags +

https://imgur.com/a/1TpNKvb this seems very annoying for soldiers...

https://imgur.com/a/1TpNKvb this seems very annoying for soldiers...
51
#51
newbie.tf
1 Frags +

I definitely like how choke will probably play now, I am a bit sad about the removal of the zoomy demo rollout. The wall also removes the fast roamer rollout, too (or at least makes it less zoomy)

I'm getting better fps so whatever u fixed good on ya

There are a lot of entrances into second now. I am usually a big fan of the 2.5 entrance unwritten rule, and this is borderline 4 routes into 2nd (between opening up books into 2 separate entrances and making the entrance through fountain more viable). Having that many routes open will probably make holding 2nd even harder, and getting uber forces or picks during a leapfrog even more challenging.

Holding off judgement of new geometry @ 2nd until i see it played. Seems cluttered but maybe it'll be cool idk

I definitely like how choke will probably play now, I am a bit sad about the removal of the zoomy demo rollout. The wall also removes the fast [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1F-opvz7gs]roamer rollout[/url], too (or at least makes it less zoomy)

I'm getting better fps so whatever u fixed good on ya

There are a lot of entrances into second now. I am usually a big fan of the 2.5 entrance unwritten rule, and this is borderline 4 routes into 2nd (between opening up books into 2 separate entrances and making the entrance through fountain more viable). Having that many routes open will probably make holding 2nd even harder, and getting uber forces or picks during a leapfrog even more challenging.

Holding off judgement of new geometry @ 2nd until i see it played. Seems cluttered but maybe it'll be cool idk
52
#52
2 Frags +
weeb_whackerhttps://imgur.com/a/1TpNKvb this seems very annoying for soldiers...

That seems to be the point, based on the changelog

kevin_gatorCHANGES:
...
Mid
- Turned the wall behind the towers into a clipped-off area that recedes into the wall so its harder to hit with splash - this change was meant to help with medic survivability in midfights
....
[quote=weeb_whacker]https://imgur.com/a/1TpNKvb this seems very annoying for soldiers...[/quote]

That seems to be the point, based on the changelog

[quote=kevin_gator]
CHANGES:
...
[u]Mid[/u]
- Turned the wall behind the towers into a clipped-off area that recedes into the wall so its harder to hit with splash - this change was meant to help with medic survivability in midfights
....
53
#53
Villa/Scourge
1 Frags +
KevinIsPwnThere are a lot of entrances into second now. I am usually a big fan of the 2.5 entrance unwritten rule, and this is borderline 4 routes into 2nd (between opening up books into 2 separate entrances and making the entrance through fountain more viable). Having that many routes open will probably make holding 2nd even harder, and getting uber forces or picks during a leapfrog even more challenging.

This could be the case, but the additional entrance is just another exit from library, meant to make that area a little less chokey. This kind of thing happens on existing 5CP maps and doesn't really act like an additional entrance, i.e. Snakewater lower and Process IT's multiple exits onto second.

[quote=KevinIsPwn]There are a lot of entrances into second now. I am usually a big fan of the 2.5 entrance unwritten rule, and this is borderline 4 routes into 2nd (between opening up books into 2 separate entrances and making the entrance through fountain more viable). Having that many routes open will probably make holding 2nd even harder, and getting uber forces or picks during a leapfrog even more challenging.[/quote]

This could be the case, but the additional entrance is just another exit from library, meant to make that area a little less chokey. This kind of thing happens on existing 5CP maps and doesn't really act like an additional entrance, i.e. Snakewater lower and Process IT's multiple exits onto second.
54
#54
newbie.tf
1 Frags +
kevin_gatorKevinIsPwnThere are a lot of entrances into second now. I am usually a big fan of the 2.5 entrance unwritten rule, and this is borderline 4 routes into 2nd (between opening up books into 2 separate entrances and making the entrance through fountain more viable). Having that many routes open will probably make holding 2nd even harder, and getting uber forces or picks during a leapfrog even more challenging.
This could be the case, but the additional entrance is just another exit from library, meant to make that area a little less chokey. This kind of thing happens on existing 5CP maps and doesn't really act like an additional entrance, i.e. Snakewater lower and Process IT's multiple exits onto second.

my bigger qualm is that u opened up all 3 entrances more than they were before, giving 3 really easy paths in (climbing pride rock instead of having to navigate around the rocks is the big one imo), without any super great paths out. forward holding seems even more difficult than it was before now

[quote=kevin_gator][quote=KevinIsPwn]There are a lot of entrances into second now. I am usually a big fan of the 2.5 entrance unwritten rule, and this is borderline 4 routes into 2nd (between opening up books into 2 separate entrances and making the entrance through fountain more viable). Having that many routes open will probably make holding 2nd even harder, and getting uber forces or picks during a leapfrog even more challenging.[/quote]

This could be the case, but the additional entrance is just another exit from library, meant to make that area a little less chokey. This kind of thing happens on existing 5CP maps and doesn't really act like an additional entrance, i.e. Snakewater lower and Process IT's multiple exits onto second.[/quote]
my bigger qualm is that u opened up all 3 entrances more than they were before, giving 3 really easy paths in (climbing pride rock instead of having to navigate around the rocks is the big one imo), without any super great paths out. forward holding seems even more difficult than it was before now
55
#55
Villa/Scourge
0 Frags +
KevinIsPwnmy bigger qualm is that u opened up all 3 entrances more than they were before, giving 3 really easy paths in (climbing pride rock instead of having to navigate around the rocks is the big one imo), without any super great paths out. forward holding seems even more difficult than it was before now

This might end up being true. The only way to really determine if it is or not is through testing, which is pretty limited right now.

[quote=KevinIsPwn]my bigger qualm is that u opened up all 3 entrances more than they were before, giving 3 really easy paths in (climbing pride rock instead of having to navigate around the rocks is the big one imo), without any super great paths out. forward holding seems even more difficult than it was before now[/quote]

This might end up being true. The only way to really determine if it is or not is through testing, which is pretty limited right now.
56
#56
1 Frags +

Mid needs a lot more and bigger height differential. The easiest is to move the right entrance to the low ground, next to the high platform. Raise the mid entrance and have that act as the path onto point. Have the displacement slope down under point, probably 128hu-192hu lower than it is now directly under point. Then carve out the area below the cement to allow fighting down there.

https://i.imgur.com/ACVuTgi.jpg

Mid needs a lot more and bigger height differential. The easiest is to move the right entrance to the low ground, next to the high platform. Raise the mid entrance and have that act as the path onto point. Have the displacement slope down under point, probably 128hu-192hu lower than it is now directly under point. Then carve out the area below the cement to allow fighting down there.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/ACVuTgi.jpg[/img]
57
#57
Villa/Scourge
1 Frags +

B16 test version V4 is here.

Changelog:
- Fixed asymmetry issues and a wallbug (I think it’s fixed now?)
- Adjusted a bunch of health and ammo packs
- Replaced tower mini healthkit on mid with mini ammopack
- Replaced medium choke ammopack with mini ammopack
- Replaced mini ammopack by choke on second with medium ammopack
- Added medium healthkit on the grass by the market stall on mid

B16 test version V4 is [url=https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LgjsuafDBvz5sAGEv7RM8QEfP0eu--l4/view?usp=drivesdk]here[/url].

Changelog:
- Fixed asymmetry issues and a wallbug (I think it’s fixed now?)
- Adjusted a bunch of health and ammo packs
- Replaced tower mini healthkit on mid with mini ammopack
- Replaced medium choke ammopack with mini ammopack
- Replaced mini ammopack by choke on second with medium ammopack
- Added medium healthkit on the grass by the market stall on mid
58
#58
Villa/Scourge
2 Frags +

B16 Update (changes are listed relative to B15B, not to B16 test versions)

OPTIMIZATION
- Simplified a lot of brushes and removed overly complex details
- Reduced the amount of unnecessary rendering that happens on the map through skybox changes and prop fade distances
VISUAL CHANGES
- Added HDR support
- Added player and pickup shadows
- Made the map slightly brighter
LAYOUT CHANGES
- LAST
- Tightened up the space behind point on last by adding new ledges that stick out from the wall and pushing spawn exits forward
- Added more cover to right side of last and altered the stairs there
- Made the entrance from dungeon into last tighter by adding a pillar
- Raised the fence in the top right to the point where it can't be reached by a single jump
- Adjusted stone fence clipping to better fit the model
- Added a window to the shutter into last so it's less risky to push
- SECOND
- Added a medium healthkit by choke and replaced the small ammopack there with a medium one
- Turned the fence by cafe into a much taller brush-based fence that players can't stand on
- Completely redesigned choke: removed double doors, added a Sunshine-style fence on second, re-aligned the stairs on second
- Raised the small hedge wall by fountain
- Replaced the rocks that overlook fountain with a grass ramp - a scout standing here could get splashed now from fountain
- Straightened out the fence by the exit from fountain to make bombing slightly easier
- Reworked the exit from library into second: added a new exit, expanded the size of library while adding a bookshelf to block a sightline that was opened up by the new exit
- Added an extended batts area above the shutter on second to provide a safer area for holding passive/getting out to last safe
- Turned fountain small healthkit into a medium healthkit
- MID
- Added a small healthkit on the roof above point
- Turned the wall behind the towers into a clipped-off area that recedes into the wall so its harder to hit with splash - this change was meant to help with medic survivability in midfights
- Repositioned some lamps that provided unfair stickytrap spots
- Added small ammopacks on towers
- Converted medium ammopack in choke to a small ammopack and removed the medium healthkit in choke
- Added small healthkits on the grass by the market stalls
LOGIC CHANGES
- Increased base respawn wave time from 9 seconds to 10 seconds, which is the standard for most 5CP maps

[u]B16 Update[/u] (changes are listed relative to B15B, not to B16 test versions)

[u]OPTIMIZATION[/u]
- Simplified a lot of brushes and removed overly complex details
- Reduced the amount of unnecessary rendering that happens on the map through skybox changes and prop fade distances
[u]VISUAL CHANGES[/u]
- Added HDR support
- Added player and pickup shadows
- Made the map slightly brighter
[u]LAYOUT CHANGES[/u]
- LAST
- Tightened up the space behind point on last by adding new ledges that stick out from the wall and pushing spawn exits forward
- Added more cover to right side of last and altered the stairs there
- Made the entrance from dungeon into last tighter by adding a pillar
- Raised the fence in the top right to the point where it can't be reached by a single jump
- Adjusted stone fence clipping to better fit the model
- Added a window to the shutter into last so it's less risky to push
- SECOND
- Added a medium healthkit by choke and replaced the small ammopack there with a medium one
- Turned the fence by cafe into a much taller brush-based fence that players can't stand on
- Completely redesigned choke: removed double doors, added a Sunshine-style fence on second, re-aligned the stairs on second
- Raised the small hedge wall by fountain
- Replaced the rocks that overlook fountain with a grass ramp - a scout standing here could get splashed now from fountain
- Straightened out the fence by the exit from fountain to make bombing slightly easier
- Reworked the exit from library into second: added a new exit, expanded the size of library while adding a bookshelf to block a sightline that was opened up by the new exit
- Added an extended batts area above the shutter on second to provide a safer area for holding passive/getting out to last safe
- Turned fountain small healthkit into a medium healthkit
- MID
- Added a small healthkit on the roof above point
- Turned the wall behind the towers into a clipped-off area that recedes into the wall so its harder to hit with splash - this change was meant to help with medic survivability in midfights
- Repositioned some lamps that provided unfair stickytrap spots
- Added small ammopacks on towers
- Converted medium ammopack in choke to a small ammopack and removed the medium healthkit in choke
- Added small healthkits on the grass by the market stalls
[u]LOGIC CHANGES[/u]
- Increased base respawn wave time from 9 seconds to 10 seconds, which is the standard for most 5CP maps
59
#59
2 Frags +

I tried to download 16 on the tf2 maps site, but I think it downloads b15b cause I dont see any of the changes

I tried to download 16 on the tf2 maps site, but I think it downloads b15b cause I dont see any of the changes
60
#60
Villa/Scourge
1 Frags +
TcmanoI tried to download 16 on the tf2 maps site, but I think it downloads b15b cause I dont see any of the changes

Thanks for pointing this out, it should be fixed now. TF2Maps doesn't allow for re-uploading files of the same name so I had to name it B16A

[quote=Tcmano]I tried to download 16 on the tf2 maps site, but I think it downloads b15b cause I dont see any of the changes[/quote]
Thanks for pointing this out, it should be fixed now. TF2Maps doesn't allow for re-uploading files of the same name so I had to name it B16A
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