Upvote Upvoted 144 Downvote Downvoted
1 2 3 4 ⋅⋅ 16
Ban Pred and Degu
posted in Off Topic
1
#1
0 Frags +

https://twitter.com/uberchain/status/1026268032887181314

This is disgusting. These two shitheads who make jokes about sexual abuse and use racist slurs at the recipient of said abuse don't belong in our community. ETF2L should perma-ban them immediately.

https://twitter.com/uberchain/status/1026268032887181314

This is disgusting. These two shitheads who make jokes about sexual abuse and use racist slurs at the recipient of said abuse don't belong in our community. ETF2L should perma-ban them immediately.
2
#2
52 Frags +

Ban all EU players. Also why would anyone ever be mean to Uberchain? She's one of the nicest people I've ever had an interaction with and she's fun to play games with.

Ban all EU players. Also why would anyone ever be mean to Uberchain? She's one of the nicest people I've ever had an interaction with and she's fun to play games with.
3
#3
70 Frags +

On one hand, what Degu tweeted was pretty bad, and I'm not going to defend him on that front, but shouldn't ETF2L bans be for things actually related to the league such as games and poor conduct on the forum?

On one hand, what Degu tweeted was pretty bad, and I'm not going to defend him on that front, but shouldn't ETF2L bans be for things actually related to the league such as games and poor conduct on the forum?
4
#4
56 Frags +

this is so sad, can we ban everyone that ever said something mean ?

this is so sad, can we ban everyone that ever said something mean ?
5
#5
-34 Frags +

is this one of those threads where the community that throws tantrums over somebody calling somebody else a mean name pretends that they don't get angry at people calling others mean names?

is this one of those threads where the community that throws tantrums over somebody calling somebody else a mean name pretends that they don't get angry at people calling others mean names?
6
#6
-28 Frags +
morwannegOn one hand, what Degu tweeted was pretty bad, and I'm not going to defend him on that front, but shouldn't ETF2L bans be for things actually related to the league such as games and poor conduct on the forum?

Not necessarily. We decide what kind of people play in our community, and allowing Pred and Degu to continue playing is essentially saying that you can get away with the sort of conduct those two displayed. Taimou got banned for saying dumb shit in a public forum. Pred and Degu did the same thing, so they can get the same punishment.

sagethis is so sad, can we ban everyone that ever said something mean ?

There's a difference between being mean and taunting victims of sexual abuse

[quote=morwanneg]On one hand, what Degu tweeted was pretty bad, and I'm not going to defend him on that front, but shouldn't ETF2L bans be for things actually related to the league such as games and poor conduct on the forum?[/quote]

Not necessarily. We decide what kind of people play in our community, and allowing Pred and Degu to continue playing is essentially saying that you can get away with the sort of conduct those two displayed. Taimou got banned for saying dumb shit in a public forum. Pred and Degu did the same thing, so they can get the same punishment.

[quote=sage]this is so sad, can we ban everyone that ever said something mean ?[/quote]

There's a difference between being mean and taunting victims of sexual abuse
7
#7
26 Frags +

ban degu and pred to #freeyllen12

good trade i believe

ban degu and pred to #freeyllen12

good trade i believe
8
#8
32 Frags +

.

.
9
#9
26 Frags +

Taimou got banned in a different game where he had a contract with the terms which he signed, no?
no offense but isn't it one of the memes nowadays when people who write long fields of text get answered by the most rude short answer? I wouldn't call you what they called you after reading it, and i assume they prolly didn't.

do you have any idea why these two guys would react in that way, even if they read what you said?

from what i gather was this a relationship were both of you cheated on one another? because that abusive behaviour sounds like its someone thats paranoid you're cheating on him because of your lower libido and is eating himself with doubt and in desperation tries to make you pregnant.

if what you said is true, thats pretty awful situation (I knew someone who was the husband in an abusive relationship like that,and its amazing how mindbogglingly hypocritical one can get, crying to me on my shoulder about his wife's infidelity and a day later while drunk try to brag about this new women from work while i'm at his place and all i think about how shitty it must be for their son who frankly was only conceived to save their marriage has to grow up with these two as parents) , and i understand why you would like to see repercussions, but there's no precedent in this on etf2l believe, and honestly i don't think it should be. wouldn't a suspension from twitter suffice and be fitting, since that's the platform they used?

Else degu and pred could rightfully claim that you might as well ban over half of the players left who play comp. tf2 remains pretty attractive because there is a very anarchistic "anything goes" mentality, but these two gents took it to twitter, and honestly, that wasnt smart.

Taimou got banned in a different game where he had a contract with the terms which he signed, no?
no offense but isn't it one of the memes nowadays when people who write long fields of text get answered by the most rude short answer? I wouldn't call you what they called you after reading it, and i assume they prolly didn't.

do you have any idea why these two guys would react in that way, even if they read what you said?

from what i gather was this a relationship were both of you cheated on one another? because that abusive behaviour sounds like its someone thats paranoid you're cheating on him because of your lower libido and is eating himself with doubt and in desperation tries to make you pregnant.

if what you said is true, thats pretty awful situation (I knew someone who was the husband in an abusive relationship like that,and its amazing how mindbogglingly hypocritical one can get, crying to me on my shoulder about his wife's infidelity and a day later while drunk try to brag about this new women from work while i'm at his place and all i think about how shitty it must be for their son who frankly was only conceived to save their marriage has to grow up with these two as parents) , and i understand why you would like to see repercussions, but there's no precedent in this on etf2l believe, and honestly i don't think it should be. wouldn't a suspension from twitter suffice and be fitting, since that's the platform they used?

Else degu and pred could rightfully claim that you might as well ban over half of the players left who play comp. tf2 remains pretty attractive because there is a very anarchistic "anything goes" mentality, but these two gents took it to twitter, and honestly, that wasnt smart.
10
#10
-2 Frags +
ymRaisin

but the thing is banning them does nothing. they'll still be around. having the entire community treat them like the shitheads they are will actually do something. Look at juju; he was a dick, people treated him like a dick, hes gone. If esea just banned him for hurting a few peoples feelings then hed still be here treating people like shit.

[quote=ymRaisin][/quote]

but the thing is banning them does nothing. they'll still be around. having the entire community treat them like the shitheads they are will actually do something. Look at juju; he was a dick, people treated him like a dick, hes gone. If esea just banned him for hurting a few peoples feelings then hed still be here treating people like shit.
11
#11
57 Frags +

inb4 circlejerk over whatever

For a game like TF2, where the community is almost all we have at this point, shouldn't we NOT be fostering an environment where things like this happen and are ok? This goes quite a bit past just hurting people's feelings.

Uberchain isn't the first person to try to point out these issues, nor will she be the last. People trivializing it need to remember that others (tagg comes to mind almost instantly) have tried to raise awareness of legitimate issues about player behavior and treatment of others, and that this isn't some small annoyance that just goes away like hurt feelings.

tl;dr being decent human beings and a good community probably means taking this sorta thing seriously

Also defending pred and degu in any sense here is kinda yikes

Edit: I wonder how many people have left the community over issues such as this and simply not been vocal about it?

inb4 circlejerk over whatever

For a game like TF2, where the community is almost all we have at this point, shouldn't we NOT be fostering an environment where things like this happen and are ok? This goes quite a bit past just hurting people's feelings.

Uberchain isn't the first person to try to point out these issues, nor will she be the last. People trivializing it need to remember that others (tagg comes to mind almost instantly) have tried to raise awareness of legitimate issues about player behavior and treatment of others, and that this isn't some small annoyance that just goes away like hurt feelings.

tl;dr being decent human beings and a good community probably means taking this sorta thing seriously

Also defending pred and degu in any sense here is kinda yikes

Edit: I wonder how many people have left the community over issues such as this and simply not been vocal about it?
12
#12
13 Frags +

theres a bunch of people who did/said abhorrent things in the past who without any sanction redeemed themselves completely and are fundamentally constructive to the community nowadays. and a league ban would only cause an opposite effect tbh. (coming back on alts and then ban evasion etc etc) and instead of them feeling vindicated in their words because in their mind they'll just see it as a "women doing a white knight rally call with her tweet" and they'll see themselves as victims and justify it, but if people treat them like an asshole or just show contempt day after day after day, they''ll either redeem or leave. also since pubs and tf2center are the places the most denigrating insults are being thrown around most people don't take offence with anything. but tf2 is not social media, and they violated the terms on that, so why isn't this a thread about twitter banning them? There's been a lot of amazing people who left becuase of dumb shit like this, and there would be a lot of other amazing people who'd leave once people start getting banned for saying dumb shit, it's a lose/lose situation honestly and the only real way to change it is our own behaviour. else if this is a case of "taking it seriously" and punish, we will eventually will go into captains digging up dirt on other teams player to sabotage matches and people encouraging other to do crime just because they don't like them. For example see raisins statement on a streamer he didnt like

raisinWhoever is DDOSing him is an asshole, but ster honestly shouldn't be surprised that someone in the community he burned so many bridges with is lashing out at him for trying to make a joke out of coming back to it. I don't think anybody DDOSed GreekGod or WarOwl.
theres a bunch of people who did/said abhorrent things in the past who without any sanction redeemed themselves completely and are fundamentally constructive to the community nowadays. and a league ban would only cause an opposite effect tbh. (coming back on alts and then ban evasion etc etc) and instead of them feeling vindicated in their words because in their mind they'll just see it as a "women doing a white knight rally call with her tweet" and they'll see themselves as victims and justify it, but if people treat them like an asshole or just show contempt day after day after day, they''ll either redeem or leave. also since pubs and tf2center are the places the most denigrating insults are being thrown around most people don't take offence with anything. but tf2 is not social media, and they violated the terms on that, so why isn't this a thread about twitter banning them? There's been a lot of amazing people who left becuase of dumb shit like this, and there would be a lot of other amazing people who'd leave once people start getting banned for saying dumb shit, it's a lose/lose situation honestly and the only real way to change it is our own behaviour. else if this is a case of "taking it seriously" and punish, we will eventually will go into captains digging up dirt on other teams player to sabotage matches and people encouraging other to do crime just because they don't like them. For example see raisins statement on a streamer he didnt like [quote=raisin]Whoever is DDOSing him is an asshole, but ster honestly shouldn't be surprised that someone in the community he burned so many bridges with is lashing out at him for trying to make a joke out of coming back to it. I don't think anybody DDOSed GreekGod or WarOwl.[/quote]
13
#13
24 Frags +
sacTaimou got banned in a different game where he had a contract with the terms which he signed, no?

Taimou got banned from ETF2L for glorifying a mass shooter, the OW ban was something entirely different.

sacdo you have any idea why these two guys would react in that way, even if they read what you said?

Clearly she doesn't, that's why she says as much.

sac
from what i gather was this a relationship were both of you cheated on one another? because that abusive behaviour sounds like its someone thats paranoid you're cheating on him because of your lower libido and is eating himself with doubt and in desperation tries to make you pregnant.

Yes that sure sounds like sexual abuse, and although I'm not going to pretend to know the exact details of uberchain's relationship, abuse is abuse, and it's never justified.

saci understand why you would like to see reprocussions, but there's no precedent in this on etf2l believe, and honestly i don't think it should be. wouldnt a suspension from twitter suffice and be fitting, since thats the platform they used?

A twitter suspension is meaningless. The punishment has to actually mean something for it to get into their thick heads that taunting abuse victims is not ok. I highly doubt degu and Pred care about their throwaway twitter accounts with <30 followers. Again, it's about who we chose to play with and be a part of our community, and no matter where someone is acting disgustingly, they're still acting disgustingly.

sacElse degu and pred could rightfully claim that you might as well ban over half of the players left who play comp.

If half of the tf2 players left in the game have publicly taunted abuse victims we've got some serious problems.

sacFor example see raisins statement on a streamer he didnt like raisinWhoever is DDOSing him is an asshole, but ster honestly shouldn't be surprised that someone in the community he burned so many bridges with is lashing out at him for trying to make a joke out of coming back to it. I don't think anybody DDOSed GreekGod or WarOwl.

Saying that something shouldn't be surprising doesn't condone the action. Like I said, the DDOSer was an asshole. You're creating a false equivalency.

[quote=sac]Taimou got banned in a different game where he had a contract with the terms which he signed, no?
[/quote]

Taimou got banned from ETF2L for glorifying a mass shooter, the OW ban was something entirely different.

[quote=sac]
do you have any idea why these two guys would react in that way, even if they read what you said?
[/quote]

Clearly she doesn't, that's why she says as much.

[quote=sac]

from what i gather was this a relationship were both of you cheated on one another? because that abusive behaviour sounds like its someone thats paranoid you're cheating on him because of your lower libido and is eating himself with doubt and in desperation tries to make you pregnant.
[/quote]
Yes that sure sounds like sexual abuse, and although I'm not going to pretend to know the exact details of uberchain's relationship, abuse is abuse, and it's never justified.

[quote=sac]
i understand why you would like to see reprocussions, but there's no precedent in this on etf2l believe, and honestly i don't think it should be. wouldnt a suspension from twitter suffice and be fitting, since thats the platform they used?
[/quote]

A twitter suspension is meaningless. The punishment has to actually mean something for it to get into their thick heads that taunting abuse victims is not ok. I highly doubt degu and Pred care about their throwaway twitter accounts with <30 followers. Again, it's about who we chose to play with and be a part of our community, and no matter where someone is acting disgustingly, they're still acting disgustingly.

[quote=sac]
Else degu and pred could rightfully claim that you might as well ban over half of the players left who play comp.
[/quote]

If half of the tf2 players left in the game have publicly taunted abuse victims we've got some serious problems.

[quote=sac]For example see raisins statement on a streamer he didnt like [quote=raisin]Whoever is DDOSing him is an asshole, but ster honestly shouldn't be surprised that someone in the community he burned so many bridges with is lashing out at him for trying to make a joke out of coming back to it. I don't think anybody DDOSed GreekGod or WarOwl.[/quote][/quote]

Saying that something shouldn't be surprising doesn't condone the action. Like I said, the DDOSer was an asshole. You're creating a false equivalency.
14
#14
9 Frags +

taimou got warned multiple times first then got a temp ban after persisting since he was doing in casted matches, and he only got permbanned after alting and using cheats, just proving my point that you'll just create way more headaches for the admins with petty (taimous attitude not dismissing what he did) shit like this if implemented. I remember playing with this guy in dmixes way back and he was an insufferable asshole, but when he got banned check the comments http://etf2l.org/2012/08/22/season-13-powered-by-tt-esports-prizes-signups-a-ban. Half of them are sympathetic

Was sanctioned for sexually harassing a presenter of OGN in Twitch Chat during an Interview of Morte. The issue got a lot of media attention in Korea and Team EnVyUs was facing disqualification from OGN Overwatch APEX, but got a last chance because the organisation and Taimou formally apologized for his behavior.[9] Taimou was fined one round of "fight money," money earned for each match win in the league.[10]

Lmao, bans for nobodies, formal apologies when money is on the line, just shows the hypocrisy present in that game

someone being an asshole doesnt excuse being an even bigger asshole and doing illegal activity. don't you see where this train of logic leads you?

taimou got warned multiple times first then got a temp ban after persisting since he was doing in casted matches, and he only got permbanned after alting and using cheats, just proving my point that you'll just create way more headaches for the admins with petty (taimous attitude not dismissing what he did) shit like this if implemented. I remember playing with this guy in dmixes way back and he was an insufferable asshole, but when he got banned check the comments http://etf2l.org/2012/08/22/season-13-powered-by-tt-esports-prizes-signups-a-ban. Half of them are sympathetic

Was sanctioned for sexually harassing a presenter of OGN in Twitch Chat during an Interview of Morte. The issue got a lot of media attention in Korea and Team EnVyUs was facing disqualification from OGN Overwatch APEX, but got a last chance because the organisation and Taimou formally apologized for his behavior.[9] Taimou was fined one round of "fight money," money earned for each match win in the league.[10]

Lmao, bans for nobodies, formal apologies when money is on the line, just shows the hypocrisy present in that game

someone being an asshole doesnt excuse being an even bigger asshole and doing illegal activity. don't you see where this train of logic leads you?
15
#15
0 Frags +
sactaimou got warned multiple times first then got a temp ban after persisting since he was doing in casted matches, and he only got permbanned after alting and using cheats, just proving my point that you'll just create way more headaches for the admins with petty shit like this if implemented. I remember playing with this guy in dmixes way back and he was an insufferable asshole, but when he got banned check the comments http://etf2l.org/2012/08/22/season-13-powered-by-tt-esports-prizes-signups-a-ban/

Sure, there are different levels of pettiness and most people deserve second and even third chances, and general toxicity has never been worth a ban in tf2, but I believe that this specific case involves something so awful and so disgusting that a second chance isn't warranted.

I am pretty mad that Taimou gets to earn large amounts of money playing Overwatch though, but that's another story.

[quote=sac]taimou got warned multiple times first then got a temp ban after persisting since he was doing in casted matches, and he only got permbanned after alting and using cheats, just proving my point that you'll just create way more headaches for the admins with petty shit like this if implemented. I remember playing with this guy in dmixes way back and he was an insufferable asshole, but when he got banned check the comments http://etf2l.org/2012/08/22/season-13-powered-by-tt-esports-prizes-signups-a-ban/[/quote]

Sure, there are different levels of pettiness and most people deserve second and even third chances, and general toxicity has never been worth a ban in tf2, but I believe that this specific case involves something so awful and so disgusting that a second chance isn't warranted.

I am pretty mad that Taimou gets to earn large amounts of money playing Overwatch though, but that's another story.
16
#16
-6 Frags +

maybe they know something we don't that makes them react viciously like that, that doesn't excuse them, but it would bring a motive to the table, and i'm curious what it is. (like them knowing who she dated and taking his side)

maybe they know something we don't that makes them react viciously like that, that doesn't excuse them, but it would bring a motive to the table, and i'm curious what it is. (like them knowing who she dated and taking his side)
17
#17
5 Frags +
ymRaisin I believe that this specific case involves something so awful and so disgusting that a second chance isn't warranted.

You're basically suggesting banning two players based on nothing more than your hurt feelings, despite you not even being the person the comments were directed toward. If this were a repeat incident with serious cases of harassment by the two users in question, you might actually have a case, but all you have are a single comment from both on Twitter, which is honestly not worth banning over given that neither comment have anything to do with TF2 in the first place.

[quote=ymRaisin] I believe that this specific case involves something so awful and so disgusting that a second chance isn't warranted.
[/quote]
You're basically suggesting banning two players based on nothing more than your hurt feelings, despite you not even being the person the comments were directed toward. If this were a repeat incident with serious cases of harassment by the two users in question, you might actually have a case, but all you have are a single comment from both on Twitter, which is honestly not worth banning over given that neither comment have anything to do with TF2 in the first place.
18
#18
41 Frags +

disclaimer: i am not defending pred and degu, what they said was shitty and disgusting

but i do not think harassing someone on twitter warrants a ban in a tf2 league. this community is small enough where someone's reputation being annihilated is punishment enough. even if this was not the case, just banning people for being assholes never ever solves the issue, all it does is breed resentment within the community. uberchain herself handled the situation perfectly by just calling them out on twitter afterwards.

disclaimer: i am not defending pred and degu, what they said was shitty and disgusting

but i do not think harassing someone on twitter warrants a ban in a tf2 league. this community is small enough where someone's reputation being annihilated is punishment enough. even if this was not the case, just banning people for being assholes never ever solves the issue, all it does is breed resentment within the community. uberchain herself handled the situation perfectly by just calling them out on twitter afterwards.
19
#19
FBTF
16 Frags +

this is the kind of shit that makes me think this game deserves to die

this is the kind of shit that makes me think this game deserves to die
20
#20
-1 Frags +

thats the last straw etf2l... gonna boycott the league until all bin affiliates get banned

thats the last straw etf2l... gonna boycott the league until all bin affiliates get banned
21
#21
23 Frags +

Crazy Pred is trying to act like a tough guy. Actually, he is weak, both mentally and physically, and yet he threatens me, for the second time, with physical assault. He doesn’t know me, but he would go down fast and hard, crying all the way. Don’t threaten people Pred!

Crazy Pred is trying to act like a tough guy. Actually, he is weak, both mentally and physically, and yet he threatens me, for the second time, with physical assault. He doesn’t know me, but he would go down fast and hard, crying all the way. Don’t threaten people Pred!
22
#22
48 Frags +
sactf2 remains pretty attractive because there is a very anarchistic "anything goes" mentality,

Don't even want to get into this retarded debate, but its really telling when people are justifying blatantly racist behavior as a good thing because "it keeps people in the game."

[quote=sac]tf2 remains pretty attractive because there is a very anarchistic "anything goes" mentality,[/quote]

Don't even want to get into this retarded debate, but its really telling when people are justifying blatantly racist behavior as a good thing because "it keeps people in the game."
23
#23
17 Frags +

People always try to be edgy in serious/sad/etc situations and I still never know why. I can understand joking with friends to lighten the mood and make them feel better, but toxicity and racial slurs in the face of trying to promote serious discussion and betterment of our community? Come on man. It’s so easy to not be an asshole and people keep going out of their way to do it

People always try to be edgy in serious/sad/etc situations and I still never know why. I can understand joking with friends to lighten the mood and make them feel better, but toxicity and racial slurs in the face of trying to promote serious discussion and betterment of our community? Come on man. It’s so easy to not be an asshole and people keep going out of their way to do it
24
#24
10 Frags +

or you could just not use any slurs ever even as a "joke"??

or you could just not use any slurs ever even as a "joke"??
25
#25
1 Frags +

a big problem is a lot of stuff like racism, bigotry, and other general toxic hatred happens day in day out, especially in lowly regulated places like TF2Center and in a lot of pug groups, but when people say things like tranny or the n-word or other shit like that, people will very often choose to do nothing about it, despite being teammates or even friends with these people. no one bothers to correct the behavior of others in this game when it matters.

a big problem is a lot of stuff like racism, bigotry, and other general toxic hatred happens day in day out, especially in lowly regulated places like TF2Center and in a lot of pug groups, but when people say things like tranny or the n-word or other shit like that, people will very often choose to do nothing about it, despite being teammates or even friends with these people. no one bothers to correct the behavior of others in this game when it matters.
26
#26
57 Frags +
Reerothis community is small enough where someone's reputation being annihilated is punishment enough.

yea ok if a guy can beat his wife and still play, another can scream niggers at lan and not get punished at all and still be idolized, plenty of people can be racist and drive tagg away and still play, and heck others can even do something gameplay affecting like cheat and get caught and still get to play then nothing is gonna happen here either.

i'd go as far as to say that even if uberchain mentioned exactly who sexually abused her that player would still be welcomed by more than enough of the community to play just fine.

if you think people in this game get their reputation "annihilated" for being shitty people you aren't paying attention

[quote=Reero]this community is small enough where someone's reputation being annihilated is punishment enough.[/quote]

yea ok if a guy can beat his wife and still play, another can scream niggers at lan and not get punished at all and still be idolized, plenty of people can be racist and drive tagg away and still play, and heck others can even do something gameplay affecting like cheat and get caught and still get to play then nothing is gonna happen here either.

i'd go as far as to say that even if uberchain mentioned exactly who sexually abused her that player would still be welcomed by more than enough of the community to play just fine.

if you think people in this game get their reputation "annihilated" for being shitty people you aren't paying attention
27
#27
-39 Frags +
.or you could just not use any slurs ever even as a "joke"??

"guys can you pause our flank scout called your roamer the r-word in discord and we need to replace him" But I agree actually, when real shit happens everyone is very quick to forgive the sins of the people they depend on. what happened to Tagg and esp the shit platinum did in public in front of sponsors was incredibly dumb. But you can't expect everyone to contain their slurs all the time, especially not when people get angry, tilted, sad. I rather be called a bunch of slurs so he can vent that way and not on his teammates.

[quote=.]or you could just not use any slurs ever even as a "joke"??[/quote]
"guys can you pause our flank scout called your roamer the r-word in discord and we need to replace him" But I agree actually, when real shit happens everyone is very quick to forgive the sins of the people they depend on. what happened to Tagg and esp the shit platinum did in public in front of sponsors was incredibly dumb. But you can't expect everyone to contain their slurs all the time, especially not when people get angry, tilted, sad. I rather be called a bunch of slurs so he can vent that way and not on his teammates.
28
#28
47 Frags +

sac, you are a fucking moron.

sac, you are a fucking moron.
29
#29
86 Frags +

i have learned 2 things during my time in tf2
1. i am not good
2. some of u need to be popped in the mouth

i have learned 2 things during my time in tf2
1. i am not good
2. some of u need to be popped in the mouth
30
#30
27 Frags +

i don't understand how to be civil to other human beings so i post strawmans on tftv, now if you'll excuse me, i have homework to do, mom says i can't play computer anymore if i fail summer school geometry

i don't understand how to be civil to other human beings so i post strawmans on tftv, now if you'll excuse me, i have homework to do, mom says i can't play computer anymore if i fail summer school geometry
1 2 3 4 ⋅⋅ 16
This thread has been locked.