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Quick-Fix in 6s?
151
#151
2 Frags +

I don't get why people want to see a ton of medgun switching... it's far more interesting seeing one team utilize the medgun better than the other team, with the occasional risky kritz play thrown in, than it is to just see items swapped out to gain an automatic advantage.

I don't get why people want to see a ton of medgun switching... it's far more interesting seeing one team utilize the medgun better than the other team, with the occasional risky kritz play thrown in, than it is to just see items swapped out to gain an automatic advantage.
152
#152
4 Frags +
SaberQuindalitrogInvite captains will vote on it for next season's ban list, it's too late to do anything for this season.

So yeah, you're making a ruckus for nothing.

we're not saying it should be banned for this season-- there's only one match left tmrw morning for grand finals. we're all advocating its ban for the upcoming season 15
"we're"

i see you speak for everybody in this community now

thanks, i appreciate being told what my opinions are
i don't think i'm thinking anymore but quick fix is stupid and i'm sure that roamers will find some way to counter it someday that don't involve heavy

Have you ever played roamer?
Once the medic pops it he is invincible to you, and this makes it no easier to combat then the uber, add in the medics jumping accross the map thing and it is near impossible to combat as Roamer.

[quote=Saber][quote=Quindali][quote=trog]Invite captains will vote on it for next season's ban list, it's too late to do anything for this season.

So yeah, you're making a ruckus for nothing.[/quote]

we're not saying it should be banned for this season-- there's only one match left tmrw morning for grand finals. we're all advocating its ban for the upcoming season 15[/quote]
"we're"

i see you speak for everybody in this community now

thanks, i appreciate being told what my opinions are
i don't think i'm thinking anymore but quick fix is stupid and i'm sure that roamers will find some way to counter it someday that don't involve heavy[/quote]

Have you ever played roamer?
Once the medic pops it he is invincible to you, and this makes it no easier to combat then the uber, add in the medics jumping accross the map thing and it is near impossible to combat as Roamer.
153
#153
-14 Frags +
ToastyTHTSaberQuindalitrogInvite captains will vote on it for next season's ban list, it's too late to do anything for this season.

So yeah, you're making a ruckus for nothing.

we're not saying it should be banned for this season-- there's only one match left tmrw morning for grand finals. we're all advocating its ban for the upcoming season 15
"we're"

i see you speak for everybody in this community now

thanks, i appreciate being told what my opinions are
i don't think i'm thinking anymore but quick fix is stupid and i'm sure that roamers will find some way to counter it someday that don't involve heavy

Have you ever played roamer?
Once the medic pops it he is invincible to you, and this makes it no easier to combat then the uber, add in the medics jumping accross the map thing and it is near impossible to combat as Roamer.

Two good rockets in succession will kill a medic who is "quickfixed".

[quote=ToastyTHT][quote=Saber][quote=Quindali][quote=trog]Invite captains will vote on it for next season's ban list, it's too late to do anything for this season.

So yeah, you're making a ruckus for nothing.[/quote]

we're not saying it should be banned for this season-- there's only one match left tmrw morning for grand finals. we're all advocating its ban for the upcoming season 15[/quote]
"we're"

i see you speak for everybody in this community now

thanks, i appreciate being told what my opinions are
i don't think i'm thinking anymore but quick fix is stupid and i'm sure that roamers will find some way to counter it someday that don't involve heavy[/quote]

Have you ever played roamer?
Once the medic pops it he is invincible to you, and this makes it no easier to combat then the uber, add in the medics jumping accross the map thing and it is near impossible to combat as Roamer.[/quote]
Two good rockets in succession will kill a medic who is "quickfixed".
154
#154
3 Frags +

Nobody ever wins with rock paper scissors...

Nobody ever wins with rock paper scissors...
155
#155
29 Frags +

Frankly I think a few people need to realize a few things.

A. Valve's support for our community is minimal at best. Occasional blog posts, occasional conversations with the single individual who maintains this game, and medals for UGC. This will not change no matter what we do, so it is pointless to attempt to appease Valve, because frankly, it's praying to a God that doesn't exist.

Therefore we need to do what's best for the format irrespective of what we may believe Valve wants, because Valve doesn't really care if we live or die.

B. There is no magic bullet that will turn Tf2 into Dota 2, LoL, or Sc2. Doing things to help are never bad, but it's fairly obvious that the display today was sub-par. The viewer numbers are fairly straight forward, traditionally we're over 3k from the very beginning. Not so for this LAN where we often struggled to stay over 2k. "Trying to speed up the game" so as to make it more popular isn't the magic bullet, i46, i49, fundraisers, documentaries, they aren't the magic bullet. They're nice things that most of us enjoy, but they aren't magic bullets and aren't intended to be, and I think a lot of people are clinging to the idea of the quick fix in the hope that it will be that magic thing. It's not - this can be empirically proven by anybody who looks at view counts over the past several LANs.

C. The only factor that changed from the last 5 LANs, for the most part (besides the EQ nerf, the over dose, conch, warmfront/metalworks) is the inclusion of the quick fix.

D. Banning an item that ruins the flow of the game has been used NUMEROUS times in TF2's history to preserve the format and improve playability. Random crits, Bonk, Crit-a-cola, minisentries, wrangler, frontier justice, widowmaker, natascha, GRU, limitations on demoman, heavy, engineer; just to name a few. While some of those items have a more radical impact on game play than even the quickfix, they were all removed for the same reasons that you would remove quickfix now: they pigeon-hole teams into turtling or relying on luck/RNG.

E. A "stale" meta-game isn't necessarily a bad thing - the rules of baseball, and the ways it's played, are basically the same as they've been since the 60's, and as far as I know the sport is still kicking along just fine. It also helps viewers understand the game because things aren't completely wacky for no particular reason.

Frankly I think a few people need to realize a few things.

A. Valve's support for our community is minimal at best. Occasional blog posts, occasional conversations with the single individual who maintains this game, and medals for UGC. This will not change no matter what we do, so it is pointless to attempt to appease Valve, because frankly, it's praying to a God that doesn't exist.

Therefore we need to do what's best for the format irrespective of what we may believe Valve wants, because Valve doesn't really care if we live or die.

B. There is no magic bullet that will turn Tf2 into Dota 2, LoL, or Sc2. Doing things to help are never bad, but it's fairly obvious that the display today was sub-par. The viewer numbers are fairly straight forward, traditionally we're over 3k from the very beginning. Not so for this LAN where we often struggled to stay over 2k. "Trying to speed up the game" so as to make it more popular isn't the magic bullet, i46, i49, fundraisers, documentaries, they aren't the magic bullet. They're nice things that most of us enjoy, but they aren't magic bullets and aren't intended to be, and I think a lot of people are clinging to the idea of the quick fix in the hope that it will be that magic thing. It's not - this can be empirically proven by anybody who looks at view counts over the past several LANs.

C. The only factor that changed from the last 5 LANs, for the most part (besides the EQ nerf, the over dose, conch, warmfront/metalworks) is the inclusion of the quick fix.

D. Banning an item that ruins the flow of the game has been used NUMEROUS times in TF2's history to preserve the format and improve playability. Random crits, Bonk, Crit-a-cola, minisentries, wrangler, frontier justice, widowmaker, natascha, GRU, limitations on demoman, heavy, engineer; just to name a few. While some of those items have a more radical impact on game play than even the quickfix, they were all removed for the same reasons that you would remove quickfix now: they pigeon-hole teams into turtling or relying on luck/RNG.

E. A "stale" meta-game isn't necessarily a bad thing - the rules of baseball, and the ways it's played, are basically the same as they've been since the 60's, and as far as I know the sport is still kicking along just fine. It also helps viewers understand the game because things aren't completely wacky for no particular reason.
156
#156
3 Frags +
zigzterToastyTHTSaberQuindalitrogInvite captains will vote on it for next season's ban list, it's too late to do anything for this season.

So yeah, you're making a ruckus for nothing.

we're not saying it should be banned for this season-- there's only one match left tmrw morning for grand finals. we're all advocating its ban for the upcoming season 15
"we're"

i see you speak for everybody in this community now

thanks, i appreciate being told what my opinions are
i don't think i'm thinking anymore but quick fix is stupid and i'm sure that roamers will find some way to counter it someday that don't involve heavy

Have you ever played roamer?
Once the medic pops it he is invincible to you, and this makes it no easier to combat then the uber, add in the medics jumping accross the map thing and it is near impossible to combat as Roamer.
Two good rockets in succession will kill a medic who is "quickfixed".

Sorry just did that on the fly looking at stats.
187-112=65
.8 seconds lated
Medic is around 140...

Maybe I'm missing something...

[quote=zigzter][quote=ToastyTHT][quote=Saber][quote=Quindali][quote=trog]Invite captains will vote on it for next season's ban list, it's too late to do anything for this season.

So yeah, you're making a ruckus for nothing.[/quote]

we're not saying it should be banned for this season-- there's only one match left tmrw morning for grand finals. we're all advocating its ban for the upcoming season 15[/quote]
"we're"

i see you speak for everybody in this community now

thanks, i appreciate being told what my opinions are
i don't think i'm thinking anymore but quick fix is stupid and i'm sure that roamers will find some way to counter it someday that don't involve heavy[/quote]

Have you ever played roamer?
Once the medic pops it he is invincible to you, and this makes it no easier to combat then the uber, add in the medics jumping accross the map thing and it is near impossible to combat as Roamer.[/quote]
Two good rockets in succession will kill a medic who is "quickfixed".[/quote]

Sorry just did that on the fly looking at stats.
187-112=65
.8 seconds lated
Medic is around 140...

Maybe I'm missing something...
157
#157
5 Frags +

Zigster those two "good" rockets will have to do over 185 hp assuming the med is at full health and will have to hit him within the space of the same second - so unless you're syncing rockets he's effectively invincible to any single player in most situations (UNLESS he has been damaged prior to his popping and you get lucky and he hasn't yet regenerated to over 100 when the next rocket hits him directly).

Zigster those two "good" rockets will have to do over 185 hp assuming the med is at full health and will have to hit him within the space of the same second - so unless you're syncing rockets he's effectively invincible to any single player in most situations (UNLESS he has been damaged prior to his popping and you get lucky and he hasn't yet regenerated to over 100 when the next rocket hits him directly).
158
#158
SwiftyServers
8 Frags +
zigzterToastyTHTSaberQuindalitrogInvite captains will vote on it for next season's ban list, it's too late to do anything for this season.

So yeah, you're making a ruckus for nothing.

we're not saying it should be banned for this season-- there's only one match left tmrw morning for grand finals. we're all advocating its ban for the upcoming season 15
"we're"

i see you speak for everybody in this community now

thanks, i appreciate being told what my opinions are
i don't think i'm thinking anymore but quick fix is stupid and i'm sure that roamers will find some way to counter it someday that don't involve heavy

Have you ever played roamer?
Once the medic pops it he is invincible to you, and this makes it no easier to combat then the uber, add in the medics jumping accross the map thing and it is near impossible to combat as Roamer.
Two good rockets in succession will kill a medic who is "quickfixed".

Maybe in UGC-Wood this will happen.

[quote=zigzter][quote=ToastyTHT][quote=Saber][quote=Quindali][quote=trog]Invite captains will vote on it for next season's ban list, it's too late to do anything for this season.

So yeah, you're making a ruckus for nothing.[/quote]

we're not saying it should be banned for this season-- there's only one match left tmrw morning for grand finals. we're all advocating its ban for the upcoming season 15[/quote]
"we're"

i see you speak for everybody in this community now

thanks, i appreciate being told what my opinions are
i don't think i'm thinking anymore but quick fix is stupid and i'm sure that roamers will find some way to counter it someday that don't involve heavy[/quote]

Have you ever played roamer?
Once the medic pops it he is invincible to you, and this makes it no easier to combat then the uber, add in the medics jumping accross the map thing and it is near impossible to combat as Roamer.[/quote]
Two good rockets in succession will kill a medic who is "quickfixed".[/quote]

Maybe in UGC-Wood this will happen.
159
#159
12 Frags +

megaheal thing heal rate is 100.8 hp/s minimum
rocket fires once every 0.8 seconds
medic heals 80.64 health in 0.8 seconds
max rocket damage is 112
medic overhealed hp is 185

so that works out to be 4 point blank directs in a row at max fire rate, putting the med into -21.08 health

good roamers shouldn't have a problem doing that!

megaheal thing heal rate is 100.8 hp/s minimum
rocket fires once every 0.8 seconds
medic heals 80.64 health in 0.8 seconds
max rocket damage is 112
medic overhealed hp is 185

so that works out to be 4 point blank directs in a row at max fire rate, putting the med into -21.08 health


good roamers shouldn't have a problem doing that!
160
#160
2 Frags +
RenhetEDIT: Didn't a meeting with Valve conclude that they don't like 6v6 because it's stale and unchanging? Meanwhile the Dota 2 meta is changing all the time. I don't think banning a weapon after its first real go is the right way to handle something if we're serious about, well, getting taken seriously.

it isn't reasonable to try to compare Dota's changing meta to TF2's stagnant one. heroes in Dota are much more diverse than the classes in TF2 (and the weapons for those classes), so there's plenty of room for adaption. TF2 is limited by unlock balancing being wonky all the time, so while it is a legitimate complaint that the game gets stale, it's a tough thing to have control of with balance to team size in mind.

[quote=Renhet]EDIT: Didn't a meeting with Valve conclude that they don't like 6v6 because it's stale and unchanging? Meanwhile the Dota 2 meta is changing all the time. I don't think banning a weapon after its first real go is the right way to handle something if we're serious about, well, getting taken seriously.[/quote]

it isn't reasonable to try to compare Dota's changing meta to TF2's stagnant one. heroes in Dota are much more diverse than the classes in TF2 (and the weapons for those classes), so there's plenty of room for adaption. TF2 is limited by unlock balancing being wonky all the time, so while it is a legitimate complaint that the game gets stale, it's a tough thing to have control of with balance to team size in mind.
161
#161
-5 Frags +
Quindalimario"because of how much easier it makes medic" Haha, NO.
how does it not make medic easier? while yes, you have to communicate with your heal target (which really is not that difficult, at least not for my team) and you have some unfortunate times where you get jumped away the quick fix also means

-less impact of crit heals/health pack distribution
-easier to have "good" healing micro (eg who you heal first, for how long, then who)
-no need to know how to build charge while keeping good buffs
-less importance of charge advantage between two medics

trust me. if you ask people who play medic or at least understand the class, quick fix makes it a lot easier.

Well I don't want to read this whole thread so I will just go over this.

"less impact of crit heals/health pack distribution"

Yes, crit heals are much less vital, health pack distribution less in certain circumstances considering you can only give out half a buff.

"easier to have "good" healing micro"

NO, not even close. It's much harder. Yes, during the roll outs the heal order is more forgiving (as of now because no one has really figured out how to optimize roll outs), but beyond that you will be switching heal targets much more often and much closer to battle, as in you have to dodge a lot more.

"no need to know how to build charge while keeping good buffs"

Yeah, that's the one easy part of quickfix, you don't have to build. Building uber isn't exactly a tough skill to master but whatever.

"less importance of charge advantage between two medics"

Hard to say for sure but I expect good teams to figure out how to counter the quickfix to the point of it getting destroyed head to head in a quickfix v uber/kritz battle. Right now you don't need to keep track of uber advantage if you are going against a medigun, against quickfix and kritz you DO.

Whether people want to pretend its just a more powerful medigun or not, the truth is if you really want to use the quickfix to its full potential, it's a much harder weapon to use.

It's really sad to see this community said such stupid stuff, but whatever. To each their own.

[quote=Quindali][quote=mario]"because of how much easier it makes medic" Haha, NO.[/quote]

how does it not make medic easier? while yes, you have to communicate with your heal target (which really is not that difficult, at least not for my team) and you have some unfortunate times where you get jumped away the quick fix also means

-less impact of crit heals/health pack distribution
-easier to have "good" healing micro (eg who you heal first, for how long, then who)
-no need to know how to build charge while keeping good buffs
-less importance of charge advantage between two medics

trust me. if you ask people who play medic or at least understand the class, quick fix makes it a lot easier.[/quote]


Well I don't want to read this whole thread so I will just go over this.

"less impact of crit heals/health pack distribution"

Yes, crit heals are much less vital, health pack distribution less in certain circumstances considering you can only give out half a buff.

"easier to have "good" healing micro"

NO, not even close. It's much harder. Yes, during the roll outs the heal order is more forgiving (as of now because no one has really figured out how to optimize roll outs), but beyond that you will be switching heal targets much more often and much closer to battle, as in you have to dodge a lot more.

"no need to know how to build charge while keeping good buffs"

Yeah, that's the one easy part of quickfix, you don't have to build. Building uber isn't exactly a tough skill to master but whatever.

"less importance of charge advantage between two medics"

Hard to say for sure but I expect good teams to figure out how to counter the quickfix to the point of it getting destroyed head to head in a quickfix v uber/kritz battle. Right now you don't need to keep track of uber advantage if you are going against a medigun, against quickfix and kritz you DO.

Whether people want to pretend its just a more powerful medigun or not, the truth is if you really want to use the quickfix to its full potential, it's a much harder weapon to use.

It's really sad to see this community said such stupid stuff, but whatever. To each their own.
162
#162
2 Frags +

I didn't really rad this thread right now, but I will tomorrow. The main thing that I will never understand is how the QF came to be in comp play. Every other time, other than piss sniper, has had the decision that when a weapon has changed mid season it can never be used. The season with a ton of changes forced that rule, so I don't get why ESEA decided to ignore history and try again.

PS- I am not sober nor was I NOT able to watch LAN, so when I watch it tomorrow my thoughts my change, allowing a mid change weapon in comp has never work, historically.

I didn't really rad this thread right now, but I will tomorrow. The main thing that I will never understand is how the QF came to be in comp play. Every other time, other than piss sniper, has had the decision that when a weapon has changed mid season it can never be used. The season with a ton of changes forced that rule, so I don't get why ESEA decided to ignore history and try again.

PS- I am not sober nor was I NOT able to watch LAN, so when I watch it tomorrow my thoughts my change, allowing a mid change weapon in comp has never work, historically.
163
#163
2 Frags +

In my experience roaming against the QF, you must either make him drop before he ever even right clicks (much like the stock uber) or have your 2nd rocket landing (assuming he was at 150 as you engaged him) within about .25 seconds of the pop.

Once the mega-heal is engaged, it's borderline impossible to kill either player (med or heal target) without 2-3 players focus firing, a sticky trap, or kritzkrieg.

In my experience roaming against the QF, you must either make him drop before he ever even right clicks (much like the stock uber) or have your 2nd rocket landing (assuming he was at 150 as you engaged him) within about .25 seconds of the pop.

Once the mega-heal is engaged, it's borderline impossible to kill either player (med or heal target) without 2-3 players focus firing, a sticky trap, or kritzkrieg.
164
#164
-4 Frags +

How about we give the quick fix more than a month (and most of that month not a lot of games being played) before judging it. This can be related to starcraft as that is how changes are made and balanced. They let changes to units stay for months (and sc2's meta changes a lot quicker than tf2's) even while people cry that something is op or useless. The reason is that people just don't know how to use it or deal with it yet, so they use this nerfed/buffed unit the same way they did before the change or try some new things that don't work out.

Let us give the quick fix a season before we make a judgement. People can theorize all they want but until we force people to deal with it and think of strategies to counter it, we have no clue. At the end of that season, if it turns out to be OP or ruin the game, lets ban it. If it turns out to be a good addition to the game, we made our game better.

How about we give the quick fix more than a month (and most of that month not a lot of games being played) before judging it. This can be related to starcraft as that is how changes are made and balanced. They let changes to units stay for months (and sc2's meta changes a lot quicker than tf2's) even while people cry that something is op or useless. The reason is that people just don't know how to use it or deal with it yet, so they use this nerfed/buffed unit the same way they did before the change or try some new things that don't work out.

Let us give the quick fix a season before we make a judgement. People can theorize all they want but until we force people to deal with it and think of strategies to counter it, we have no clue. At the end of that season, if it turns out to be OP or ruin the game, lets ban it. If it turns out to be a good addition to the game, we made our game better.
165
#165
0 Frags +

And I was sad I didn't get a chance to watch LAN. Judging from all the bitching on this thread I didn't miss a thing...

And I was sad I didn't get a chance to watch LAN. Judging from all the bitching on this thread I didn't miss a thing...
166
#166
11 Frags +

I watched the Quakecon finals this year, the fundamentals of that game hasn't changed in decades... I still enjoy the shit out of it and if you were to change it drastically I'd tell you to go to hell.

FPS' will never be comparable to a hero based (essentially a mini-RPG) MOBA in terms of meta change. You have to ask yourself if you want the determining factor for a victory the technical aspect of the game (shooting, moving and reactions) or some sort of diceroll rock-paper-scissors deal. I think the spirit of FPS gaming leans towards technical mastery over strategic calls.

And... There is no point in competing with Dota and SC2. TF2 will never, ever, resemble those games. Why would people watch a butchered FPS game made to look like Dota instead of Dota itself?

And does no one realise people can enjoy two different types of e-sports concurrently?

I enjoy watching the SC2 stuff because it's different to the FPS games I usually play. Conversely, I hope we can create a game that MOBA players will spectate just for fun because it's so vastly different to what they usually play.

I watched the Quakecon finals this year, the fundamentals of that game hasn't changed in decades... I still enjoy the shit out of it and if you were to change it drastically I'd tell you to go to hell.

FPS' will never be comparable to a hero based (essentially a mini-RPG) MOBA in terms of meta change. You have to ask yourself if you want the determining factor for a victory the technical aspect of the game (shooting, moving and reactions) or some sort of diceroll rock-paper-scissors deal. I think the spirit of FPS gaming leans towards technical mastery over strategic calls.

And... There is no point in competing with Dota and SC2. TF2 will never, ever, resemble those games. Why would people watch a butchered FPS game made to look like Dota instead of Dota itself?

And does no one realise people can enjoy two different types of e-sports concurrently?

I enjoy watching the SC2 stuff because it's different to the FPS games I usually play. Conversely, I hope we can create a game that MOBA players will spectate just for fun because it's so vastly different to what they usually play.
167
#167
14 Frags +

People are arguing for the qf as if its stats aren't blatantly amazing. There's nothing to adjust to, if anything I imagine people will get much better with it. You're sacrificing 50% of buffs for a faster heal rate, an uber that can compete with the others and sometimes exceed them, and the luxury of choosing every fight. Honestly on some maps with a good combo the qf medic should never die. It lowers the skill-ceiling of medic tremendously.

People are arguing for the qf as if its stats aren't blatantly amazing. There's nothing to adjust to, if anything I imagine people will get much better with it. You're sacrificing 50% of buffs for a faster heal rate, an uber that can compete with the others and sometimes exceed them, and the luxury of choosing every fight. Honestly on some maps with a good combo the qf medic should never die. It lowers the skill-ceiling of medic tremendously.
168
#168
Momentum Mod
9 Frags +

I'm sure ruining a LAN is enough we don't need to then ruin the next season.

Also can people stop relating an FPS game to other non-FPS games? There is no connection.
Also probably shouldn't listen to people who in my year of TF2 I've seen not been able to reach the heights of UGC silver.

I'm sure ruining a LAN is enough we don't need to then ruin the next season.

Also can people stop relating an FPS game to other non-FPS games? There is no connection.
Also probably shouldn't listen to people who in my year of TF2 I've seen not been able to reach the heights of UGC silver.
169
#169
0 Frags +

Scratch what I said. Found the demo and I hit the med for 103 before he popped quickfix.

Scratch what I said. Found the demo and I hit the med for 103 before he popped quickfix.
170
#170
-6 Frags +
cloudlandRenhetEDIT: Didn't a meeting with Valve conclude that they don't like 6v6 because it's stale and unchanging? Meanwhile the Dota 2 meta is changing all the time. I don't think banning a weapon after its first real go is the right way to handle something if we're serious about, well, getting taken seriously.
it isn't reasonable to try to compare Dota's changing meta to TF2's stagnant one. heroes in Dota are much more diverse than the classes in TF2 (and the weapons for those classes), so there's plenty of room for adaption. TF2 is limited by unlock balancing being wonky all the time, so while it is a legitimate complaint that the game gets stale, it's a tough thing to have control of with balance to team size in mind.

oh hello

I wasn't trying to compare the two in that way, but more give an example of a game with a changing meta that is enjoyable and successful as a result, to play or watch. I realize I'm probably in the minority here, but I get bored watching TF2, so I just don't.

[quote=cloudland][quote=Renhet]EDIT: Didn't a meeting with Valve conclude that they don't like 6v6 because it's stale and unchanging? Meanwhile the Dota 2 meta is changing all the time. I don't think banning a weapon after its first real go is the right way to handle something if we're serious about, well, getting taken seriously.[/quote]

it isn't reasonable to try to compare Dota's changing meta to TF2's stagnant one. heroes in Dota are much more diverse than the classes in TF2 (and the weapons for those classes), so there's plenty of room for adaption. TF2 is limited by unlock balancing being wonky all the time, so while it is a legitimate complaint that the game gets stale, it's a tough thing to have control of with balance to team size in mind.[/quote]
oh hello

I wasn't trying to compare the two in that way, but more give an example of a game with a changing meta that is enjoyable and successful as a result, to play or watch. I realize I'm probably in the minority here, but I get bored watching TF2, so I just don't.
171
#171
-16 Frags +
HellbentAlso can people stop relating an FPS game to other non-FPS games? There is no connection.

Please continue, I want to hear the reasoning on why there is absolutely no connection between FPS games and non-fps games. Please go into depth.

[quote=Hellbent]Also can people stop relating an FPS game to other non-FPS games? There is no connection.[/quote]


Please continue, I want to hear the reasoning on why there is absolutely no connection between FPS games and non-fps games. Please go into depth.
172
#172
8 Frags +
Gen_CavemanHellbentAlso can people stop relating an FPS game to other non-FPS games? There is no connection.
Please continue, I want to hear the reasoning on why there is absolutely no connection between FPS games and non-fps games. Please go into depth.

there is none at all

go away

[quote=Gen_Caveman][quote=Hellbent]Also can people stop relating an FPS game to other non-FPS games? There is no connection.[/quote]


Please continue, I want to hear the reasoning on why there is absolutely no connection between FPS games and non-fps games. Please go into depth.[/quote]

there is none at all

go away
173
#173
-6 Frags +
FFGthere is none at all

go away

No, I want to create a discussion, I want to know why he thinks there is no correlation between FPS and non-FPS games. If you want for everyone to say the same thing over and over again, just read the first 6 pages again.

[quote=FFG]there is none at all

go away[/quote]

No, I want to create a discussion, I want to know why he thinks there is no correlation between FPS and non-FPS games. If you want for everyone to say the same thing over and over again, just read the first 6 pages again.
174
#174
-5 Frags +

i really hope the invite captains who vote on item bans give the gun a longer trial run. as i said before, obviously the gun changes the current meta a wee bit, but in theory it should be for the better. i don't think there's been a unlock up until this point that has the capability to change how 6v6 is played as much as the quickfix, which is exactly why it needs to be tested longer than any of the others.

i really hope the invite captains who vote on item bans give the gun a longer trial run. as i said before, obviously the gun changes the current meta a wee bit, but in theory it [i]should[/i] be for the better. i don't think there's been a unlock up until this point that has the capability to change how 6v6 is played as much as the quickfix, which is exactly why it needs to be tested longer than any of the others.
175
#175
6 Frags +

so this thread has sorta become a "you're wrong i'm right" type scenario but i figured i'd throw my $.02 in as well

the biggest issue is the quickfix should NOT have been allowed this season. it was released what? week 7? 8? this makes the playoffs for all divisions a big experiment, and that's unfair to the teams/players.

that being said, we need THOROUGH off season testing of the QF to see if it needs to be banned.

what's going to be so, so, so important is that people do testing THEMSELVES and don't bandwagon like fucking idiots. there's nothing wrong with TLR loving him some standin, but that doesnt make the map balanced/good/not a pile of shit. people: test shit out for yourself. just because an invite player said X does not mean X is true.

the biggest "perk" of the quickfix i've heard mentioned so far is the sped up pace of the game. no stalemates, etc. well apparently teams that are both on quickfix have discovered that heavy fucks QF in the ass. this means not only do you have no uber or kritz to kill the heavy, your medigun is DIRECTLY countered by heavy.

need to figure out a way to beat the QF+heavy with your own QF that doesn't involve running a heavy of your own, or the whole point of allowing the QF is kind of null and void.

this whole post feels like a clusterfuck and i am sorry. tequila.

so this thread has sorta become a "you're wrong i'm right" type scenario but i figured i'd throw my $.02 in as well

the biggest issue is the quickfix should NOT have been allowed this season. it was released what? week 7? 8? this makes the playoffs for all divisions a big experiment, and that's unfair to the teams/players.

that being said, we need [b]THOROUGH[/b] off season testing of the QF to see if it needs to be banned.

what's going to be so, so, so important is that people do testing THEMSELVES and don't bandwagon like fucking idiots. there's nothing wrong with TLR loving him some standin, but that doesnt make the map balanced/good/not a pile of shit. people: test shit out for yourself. just because an invite player said X does not mean X is true.

the biggest "perk" of the quickfix i've heard mentioned so far is the sped up pace of the game. no stalemates, etc. well apparently teams that are both on quickfix have discovered that heavy fucks QF in the ass. this means not only do you have no uber or kritz to kill the heavy, your medigun is DIRECTLY countered by heavy.

need to figure out a way to beat the QF+heavy with your own QF that doesn't involve running a heavy of your own, or the whole point of allowing the QF is kind of null and void.

this whole post feels like a clusterfuck and i am sorry. tequila.
176
#176
10 Frags +

Valve should have absolutely no bearing on 6v6 decision making. They made a great game for us to play back in 2007, and that's where it pretty much ends. Valve introduced items, Mann co, F2P, and a shit ton more items with no REAL thought to balancing classes, and game modes. They want an ever increasing number of items to keep pub players interested and keep Mann co rumbling along. Some will be utter trash. With dota there is a real interest in balance as it's built to be an e-sport. TF2 can have broken items for years without Valve noticing, or really caring because it's intended for pubs.

They aren't evil or anything, but they will NEVER have the same goals or expectations for the game that we do, and the sooner we all realize that the faster we can get back to evaluating weapons over time like logical people. Trying to fit in with the ideas of those who don't even dabble in our little niche, intend on moving the game elsewhere, and have professed to not appreciating our little world any longer is ridiculous.

Valve should have absolutely no bearing on 6v6 decision making. They made a great game for us to play back in 2007, and that's where it pretty much ends. Valve introduced items, Mann co, F2P, and a shit ton more items with no REAL thought to balancing classes, and game modes. They want an ever increasing number of items to keep pub players interested and keep Mann co rumbling along. Some will be utter trash. With dota there is a real interest in balance as it's built to be an e-sport. TF2 can have broken items for years without Valve noticing, or really caring because it's intended for pubs.

They aren't evil or anything, but they will NEVER have the same goals or expectations for the game that we do, and the sooner we all realize that the faster we can get back to evaluating weapons over time like logical people. Trying to fit in with the ideas of those who don't even dabble in our little niche, intend on moving the game elsewhere, and have professed to not appreciating our little world any longer is ridiculous.
177
#177
0 Frags +
marmadukeGRYLLSthe truth

Thank you, this is what I was trying to get the discussion going towards. We have no idea if the quick fix turns the meta into QF + Heavy vs QF + Heavy. Because we didn't test it for a good period of time before lan (still not sure why it was allowed this season but w/e), we hit a time where people just don't know how to use it properly and thousands were watching. Now if it may turn out that after a good amount of testing that the QF turns the game in a stalemate fest with heavies, ok than we ban it. But what if something is discovered that makes QF + Heavy worthless or a way to counter quick fix better with an uber, than we have a better game.

Play the off-season like the quick fix is going to be allowed next season. Test out different strategies and see what works. Have combo jump the flank and try to get a pick, pop in while there is a stalemate and try to make something happen then jump out, try things that you couldn't do with a regular medi-gun and test out things out that might lose you games (ie not lan games). Worst comes to worst and we play the game we have been playing for the years. The best outcome is that we make a better game, which in turns make a game that is more fun to play and watch.

[quote=marmadukeGRYLLS]the truth[/quote]


Thank you, this is what I was trying to get the discussion going towards. We have no idea if the quick fix turns the meta into QF + Heavy vs QF + Heavy. Because we didn't test it for a good period of time before lan (still not sure why it was allowed this season but w/e), we hit a time where people just don't know how to use it properly and thousands were watching. Now if it may turn out that after a good amount of testing that the QF turns the game in a stalemate fest with heavies, ok than we ban it. But what if something is discovered that makes QF + Heavy worthless or a way to counter quick fix better with an uber, than we have a better game.

Play the off-season like the quick fix is going to be allowed next season. Test out different strategies and see what works. Have combo jump the flank and try to get a pick, pop in while there is a stalemate and try to make something happen then jump out, try things that you couldn't do with a regular medi-gun and test out things out that might lose you games (ie not lan games). Worst comes to worst and we play the game we have been playing for the years. The best outcome is that we make a better game, which in turns make a game that is more fun to play and watch.
178
#178
0 Frags +
OafmealValve should have absolutely no bearing on 6v6 decision making.

I am not trying to sound like a douche, I just really don't know. What post is this in reference to?

Because I agree with you but am not sure who you are referring too.

[quote=Oafmeal]Valve should have absolutely no bearing on 6v6 decision making.[/quote]


I am not trying to sound like a douche, I just really don't know. What post is this in reference to?

Because I agree with you but am not sure who you are referring too.
179
#179
0 Frags +

From this happening anyone ashamed that BLADE got to go to his first LAN to watch 6v6 in the most boring possibly way ever? I'm certainly am - sorry dude..Maybe he liked it iunno.

From this happening anyone ashamed that BLADE got to go to his first LAN to watch 6v6 in the most boring possibly way ever? I'm certainly am - sorry dude..Maybe he liked it iunno.
180
#180
2 Frags +

I think if we want TF2 to become spectator friendly in the future changes need to be made. Stalemates are big problem (Gullywash 2nd and last in the HRG vs mix^ comes to mind) that could be fixed with a drastic change that I don't know if the community would be too keen on. A change like REMOVING HEAVY ENGINEER and PYRO from 6's. These classes don't really bring anything for spectators and they are not fun to play against. A change like that will probably never be implemented, but I like to think it would improve the game (in terms of both fun to watch and play).

I think if we want TF2 to become spectator friendly in the future changes need to be made. Stalemates are big problem (Gullywash 2nd and last in the HRG vs mix^ comes to mind) that could be fixed with a drastic change that I don't know if the community would be too keen on. A change like REMOVING HEAVY ENGINEER and PYRO from 6's. These classes don't really bring anything for spectators and they are not fun to play against. A change like that will probably never be implemented, but I like to think it would improve the game (in terms of both fun to watch and play).
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