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May Global Whitelist Changes
1
#1
ozfortress
0 Frags +

Previous Whitelist: http://whitelist.tf/6853
New Whitelist: http://whitelist.tf/7210

Changelist:
Ban > Vaccinator
Ban > Jarate

Over the past few weeks, leagues have been collecting feedback from polls or personal conversations (for Premier/Invite players) regarding potential Global Whitelist changes. With the collected opinions, administrators from around the globe came together and expressed their region/league’s opinion. The recent threads on teamfortress.tv as well as GentlemanJon’s survey results were also taken into account in our meeting.

The participating leagues in the meeting were ozfortress, ETF2L, ESEA and UGC. The core values of the original Global Whitelist which involved allowing weapons which did not have compelling reasons were retained.

Prior to the meeting, a preliminary list of the most contentious current weapons (see below) was compiled and the meeting was centred around that list. It was agreed that the meeting would be held in private, as the previous meeting in the TF.TV Discord amounted to essentially several hours of arguing resulting in whoever spoke the loudest having the greatest input. However, as we believe transparency to be essential when considering such changes, we have documented the discussions regarding each weapon below.

The weapons discussed are as follows:

Vaccinator - Banned

The Vaccinator has been a very controversial weapon across all regions. It was primarily used when there was an Über disadvantage for your team due to its high defensive capabilities. The weapon also has the capacity to force awkward team fights and removes the 6v6 fundamental of Über tracking altogether. The Vaccinator is also the only Medigun that negates forms of damage while still allowing those affected to capture control points. For these reasons, the Vaccinator is now banned.

Jarate - Banned

Jarate is a weapon that most players are familiar with but has recently made a resurgence in the competitive scene. Jarate is uncontested as the best Sniper secondary in the sense that it allows the Sniper to have a greater impact in team fights by granting his team a temporary increase in damage output, at no expense to those using it. For these reasons, Jarate is (once again) banned.

Crusader's Crossbow - Unbanned (Unchanged)

One of the most talked about weapons globally, the Crossbow has divided the opinions of the competitive TF2 community. This item was discussed at great length and for the time being remains unbanned. Whilst the ability to grant burst healing to teammates is exceptionally strong, the Crusader’s Crossbow adds greater depth and variety to the class’s gameplay. It allows Medics to become increasingly involved in team engagements and gives the medic huge clutch potential. Despite being objectively the strongest primary weapon available to the Medic, we believe the positive aspects of the Crusader’s Crossbow and its importance to the metagame outweigh its negative aspects. For these reasons the Crusader's Crossbow will remain unbanned.

Machina - Unbanned (Unchanged)

The Machina’s damage buff is mostly insignificant, and the utility of collateral shots isn’t consistently viable enough for the weapon to be considered unbalanced. As such, the Machina remains unbanned.

Cow Mangler 5000 - Unbanned (Unchanged)

Despite not needing ammunition packs as most weapons do, this upgrade itself is not significant enough to be considered unbalanced. The alt-fire charge shot does not have momentous impact on the game, and the weapon's downside of virtually 0 Sentry Gun damage remains quite prominent. For these reasons the Cow Mangler 5000 will remain unbanned.

Solemn Vow - Banned (Unchanged)

The Solemn Vow, despite testing in ETF2L, will remain banned. Although it had seemingly little impact when tested, we remained uncertain as to what changes this weapon’s passive ability would create when used in league play and high-stakes matches. For these above reasons we elected to keep the Solemn Vow banned.

Natascha - Unbanned (Unchanged)

This weapon was generally disliked due to the slowing ability of its bullets as well as the small amount of damage resistance it granted the Heavy. However, the damage resistance was amplified when used in conjunction with the Vaccinator, and with the removal of the Vaccinator we believe this damage resistance will be near negligible. The utility of the speed reduction is somewhat limited and situational and in most regards the weapon is otherwise a downgrade from other available heavy primary weapons. As such, Natascha remains unbanned.

Pomson 6000 - Unbanned (Unchanged)

Although the weapon depletes Übercharge, the amount removed is minimal and insignificant, especially at range. The projectiles are also large and slow-moving, making it relatively easy to avoid. Furthermore, due to its limited effectiveness at range, the weapon is situationally worse than the Shotgun. For these above reasons, Pomson 6000 remains unbanned.

Loch-n-Load - Unbanned (Unchanged)

Even though the grenade shot by the Loch-n-Load is faster, it deals significantly less damage per minute over the stock Grenade Launcher. The smaller damage radius and the lack of spam ability considers the weapon balanced and as such, the Loch-n-Load remains unbanned.

Cooperation and consistency between the leagues is a key factor in improving how competitive TF2 is played on a global scale. The opinions gathered from polls and messages posted on the all forums are all vital to the Global Whitelist.

Thank you for yauch and Aoshi for their help in this writeup.

[b]Previous Whitelist:[/b] http://whitelist.tf/6853
[B]New Whitelist:[/B] http://whitelist.tf/7210

[B]Changelist:[/B]
Ban > Vaccinator
Ban > Jarate

Over the past few weeks, leagues have been collecting feedback from polls or personal conversations (for Premier/Invite players) regarding potential Global Whitelist changes. With the collected opinions, administrators from around the globe came together and expressed their region/league’s opinion. The recent threads on teamfortress.tv as well as [URL=http://www.teamfortress.tv/41065/]GentlemanJon’s survey results[/URL] were also taken into account in our meeting.

The participating leagues in the meeting were ozfortress, ETF2L, ESEA and UGC. The core values of the original Global Whitelist which involved allowing weapons which did not have compelling reasons were retained.

Prior to the meeting, a preliminary list of the most contentious current weapons (see below) was compiled and the meeting was centred around that list. It was agreed that the meeting would be held in private, as the previous meeting in the TF.TV Discord amounted to essentially several hours of arguing resulting in whoever spoke the loudest having the greatest input. However, as we believe transparency to be essential when considering such changes, we have documented the discussions regarding each weapon below.

[u]The weapons discussed are as follows:[/u]

[h]Vaccinator - Banned[/h]

The Vaccinator has been a very controversial weapon across all regions. It was primarily used when there was an Über disadvantage for your team due to its high defensive capabilities. The weapon also has the capacity to force awkward team fights and removes the 6v6 fundamental of Über tracking altogether. The Vaccinator is also the only Medigun that negates forms of damage while still allowing those affected to capture control points. For these reasons, the Vaccinator is now banned.

[h]Jarate - Banned[/h]

Jarate is a weapon that most players are familiar with but has recently made a resurgence in the competitive scene. Jarate is uncontested as the best Sniper secondary in the sense that it allows the Sniper to have a greater impact in team fights by granting his team a temporary increase in damage output, at no expense to those using it. For these reasons, Jarate is (once again) banned.

[h]Crusader's Crossbow - Unbanned (Unchanged)[/h]

One of the most talked about weapons globally, the Crossbow has divided the opinions of the competitive TF2 community. This item was discussed at great length and for the time being remains unbanned. Whilst the ability to grant burst healing to teammates is exceptionally strong, the Crusader’s Crossbow adds greater depth and variety to the class’s gameplay. It allows Medics to become increasingly involved in team engagements and gives the medic huge clutch potential. Despite being objectively the strongest primary weapon available to the Medic, we believe the positive aspects of the Crusader’s Crossbow and its importance to the metagame outweigh its negative aspects. For these reasons the Crusader's Crossbow will remain unbanned.

[h]Machina - Unbanned (Unchanged)[/h]

The Machina’s damage buff is mostly insignificant, and the utility of collateral shots isn’t consistently viable enough for the weapon to be considered unbalanced. As such, the Machina remains unbanned.

[h]Cow Mangler 5000 - Unbanned (Unchanged)[/h]

Despite not needing ammunition packs as most weapons do, this upgrade itself is not significant enough to be considered unbalanced. The alt-fire charge shot does not have momentous impact on the game, and the weapon's downside of virtually 0 Sentry Gun damage remains quite prominent. For these reasons the Cow Mangler 5000 will remain unbanned.

[h]Solemn Vow - Banned (Unchanged)[/h]

The Solemn Vow, despite testing in ETF2L, will remain banned. Although it had seemingly little impact when tested, we remained uncertain as to what changes this weapon’s passive ability would create when used in league play and high-stakes matches. For these above reasons we elected to keep the Solemn Vow banned.

[h]Natascha - Unbanned (Unchanged)[/h]

This weapon was generally disliked due to the slowing ability of its bullets as well as the small amount of damage resistance it granted the Heavy. However, the damage resistance was amplified when used in conjunction with the Vaccinator, and with the removal of the Vaccinator we believe this damage resistance will be near negligible. The utility of the speed reduction is somewhat limited and situational and in most regards the weapon is otherwise a downgrade from other available heavy primary weapons. As such, Natascha remains unbanned.

[h]Pomson 6000 - Unbanned (Unchanged)[/h]

Although the weapon depletes Übercharge, the amount removed is minimal and insignificant, especially at range. The projectiles are also large and slow-moving, making it relatively easy to avoid. Furthermore, due to its limited effectiveness at range, the weapon is situationally worse than the Shotgun. For these above reasons, Pomson 6000 remains unbanned.

[h]Loch-n-Load - Unbanned (Unchanged)[/h]

Even though the grenade shot by the Loch-n-Load is faster, it deals significantly less damage per minute over the stock Grenade Launcher. The smaller damage radius and the lack of spam ability considers the weapon balanced and as such, the Loch-n-Load remains unbanned.

Cooperation and consistency between the leagues is a key factor in improving how competitive TF2 is played on a global scale. The opinions gathered from polls and messages posted on the all forums are all vital to the Global Whitelist.

Thank you for yauch and Aoshi for their help in this writeup.
2
#2
14 Frags +

Appreciate these changes

Appreciate these changes
3
#3
4 Frags +

Good changes!

Good changes!
4
#4
15 Frags +

i do not agree with the cock mongler being unbanned due to its tendency to make soldier not require the most basic thing in a competitive shooter which is ammo management, please for the love of god just remove it

i do not agree with the cock mongler being unbanned due to its tendency to make soldier not require the most basic thing in a competitive shooter which is ammo management, please for the love of god just remove it
5
#5
ETF2L
23 Frags +

Thank you to everybody who tried to actively participate within the discussion. All feedback was read and discussed with the participating people. Although we wont be able to make everybody happy we try our best.

With Obla doing much of the work I recon we should rename it to the globla whitelist though.

Thank you to everybody who tried to actively participate within the discussion. All feedback was read and discussed with the participating people. Although we wont be able to make everybody happy we try our best.

With Obla doing much of the work I recon we should rename it to the globla whitelist though.
6
#6
-8 Frags +

today was a good day

#premilluminati

today was a good day

#premilluminati
7
#7
55 Frags +

This is a good whitelist, but I don't know which Invite players you talked to regarding the machina, because your guys' reasoning is simply not true and it genuinely angers me that people don't see it being an insanely good weapon, especially the worse you are at sniper. I am 100% confident that purpleshirt would not have been nearly effective during grand finals if he were not using the machina. He played well and hit his shots, so he still would've been effective, but it is actually incredible how much more he shut down scouts and soldiers with full charge body shots.

oblaThe Machina’s damage buff is mostly insignificant, and the utility of collateral shots isn’t consistently viable enough for the weapon to be considered unbalanced. As such, the Machina remains unbanned.

The damage buff is NOT insignificant. as the most relevant example, purpleshirt literally shut down the scouts on froyo whenever he bodyshot them, because there was a very rare chance their buff was >173, and if it were, they were a 1 shot kill by a scout (immediately dying after bodyshots, where otherwise, they could have a much greater chance at living after getting bodyshot). purpleshirt also shut down soldiers when they jumped with a bodyshot, a lot of the times killing them when he wouldve not otherwise. a soldier has 200 hp, after taking a machina bodyshot without a buff (or a lot of times, soldiers actually have 150-200 hp range because they occasionally eat damage from the flank), they can only rj out with about <15hp, which is generally a 2 shot kill at most from across the map, which i remember doing in that match a few times, where they wouldve not otherwise died, because he has 1-2 more rocket jumps than normally after getting 150'd.

There are many more examples that frequently occur, making this weapon overpowered, and another has to deal with every sniper vs sniper duel that occurs if one sniper is using the machina. i would go into much greater detail about why this weapon simply shouldn't exist if you want to actually talk about it .

This is a good whitelist, but I don't know which Invite players you talked to regarding the machina, because your guys' reasoning is simply not true and it genuinely angers me that people don't see it being an insanely good weapon, [b]especially the worse you are at sniper[/b]. I am 100% confident that purpleshirt would not have been nearly effective during grand finals if he were not using the machina. He played well and hit his shots, so he still would've been effective, but it is actually incredible how much more he shut down scouts and soldiers with full charge body shots.

[quote=obla]The Machina’s damage buff is mostly insignificant, and the utility of collateral shots isn’t consistently viable enough for the weapon to be considered unbalanced. As such, the Machina remains unbanned.[/quote]

The damage buff is NOT insignificant. as the most relevant example, purpleshirt literally shut down the scouts on froyo whenever he bodyshot them, because there was a very rare chance their buff was >173, and if it were, they were a 1 shot kill by a scout (immediately dying after bodyshots, where otherwise, they could have a much greater chance at living after getting bodyshot). purpleshirt also shut down soldiers when they jumped with a bodyshot, a lot of the times killing them when he wouldve not otherwise. a soldier has 200 hp, after taking a machina bodyshot without a buff (or a lot of times, soldiers actually have 150-200 hp range because they occasionally eat damage from the flank), they can only rj out with about <15hp, which is generally a 2 shot kill at most from across the map, which i remember doing in that match a few times, where they wouldve not otherwise died, because he has 1-2 more rocket jumps than normally after getting 150'd.

There are many more examples that [i]frequently[/i] occur, making this weapon overpowered, and another has to deal with every sniper vs sniper duel that occurs if one sniper is using the machina. i would go into much greater detail about why this weapon simply shouldn't exist if you want to actually talk about it .
8
#8
10 Frags +

Thank you for properly considering these changes and accounting for all the sources of feedback you had available.

Thank you for properly considering these changes and accounting for all the sources of feedback you had available.
9
#9
32 Frags +

https://youtu.be/GmjFj9g5BHs

https://youtu.be/GmjFj9g5BHs
10
#10
16 Frags +
corsaThis is a good whitelist, but I don't know which Invite players you talked to regarding the machina, because your guys' reasoning is simply not true and it genuinely angers me that people don't see it being an insanely good weapon, especially the worse you are at sniper. I am 100% confident that purpleshirt would not have been nearly effective during grand finals if he were not using the machina. He played well and hit his shots, but it is actually incredible how much he shut down scouts and soldiers with full charge body shots.
oblaThe Machina’s damage buff is mostly insignificant, and the utility of collateral shots isn’t consistently viable enough for the weapon to be considered unbalanced. As such, the Machina remains unbanned.
The damage buff is NOT insignificant. as the best possible example, purpleshirt literally shut down the scouts on froyo whenever he bodyshot them, because there was a very rare chance their buff was >173, and if it were, they were a 1 shot kill by a scout. purpleshirt, again, shut down soldiers when they jumped with a bodyshot, a lot of the times killing them when he wouldve not otherwise. a soldier has 200 hp, after taking a machina bodyshot without a buff (or a lot of times, soldiers actually have 150-200 hp range because they occasionally eat damage from the flank), they can only rj out with about <15hp, which is generally a 2 shot kill at most from across the map, which i remember doing in that match a few times, where they wouldve not otherwise died, because he has 1-2 more rocket jumps than normally after getting 150'd.

There are many more examples that frequently occur, making this weapon overpowered, and another has to deal with every sniper vs sniper duel that occurs if one sniper is using the machina. i would go into a much greater depth about why this weapon simply shouldn't exist if you want to actually talk about it .

To build off of this

oblaThe Machina’s damage buff is mostly insignificant, and the utility of collateral shots isn’t consistently viable enough for the weapon to be considered unbalanced. As such, the Machina remains unbanned.

It doesn't matter if it's consistently viable or not, getting any collateral kill is a kill that shouldn't have happened more importantly though is if you get multiple kills are hit multiple target for 173. I've already had a couple last defenses where I hit 3 players even though I only killed 1 person both times taking a team down 1 player and effectively eliminating the other 2. The worst part is this is mostly random; of all the collateral shots I've hit I've only purposely did them maybe 15-20% of the time. It just feels weird to basically put an end to a push with 1 shot that would've otherwise had little impact as it would've only done a single 150 to someone.

[quote=corsa]This is a good whitelist, but I don't know which Invite players you talked to regarding the machina, because your guys' reasoning is simply not true and it genuinely angers me that people don't see it being an insanely good weapon, [b]especially the worse you are at sniper[/b]. I am 100% confident that purpleshirt would not have been nearly effective during grand finals if he were not using the machina. He played well and hit his shots, but it is actually incredible how much he shut down scouts and soldiers with full charge body shots.

[quote=obla]The Machina’s damage buff is mostly insignificant, and the utility of collateral shots isn’t consistently viable enough for the weapon to be considered unbalanced. As such, the Machina remains unbanned.[/quote]

The damage buff is NOT insignificant. as the best possible example, purpleshirt literally shut down the scouts on froyo whenever he bodyshot them, because there was a very rare chance their buff was >173, and if it were, they were a 1 shot kill by a scout. purpleshirt, again, shut down soldiers when they jumped with a bodyshot, a lot of the times killing them when he wouldve not otherwise. a soldier has 200 hp, after taking a machina bodyshot without a buff (or a lot of times, soldiers actually have 150-200 hp range because they occasionally eat damage from the flank), they can only rj out with about <15hp, which is generally a 2 shot kill at most from across the map, which i remember doing in that match a few times, where they wouldve not otherwise died, because he has 1-2 more rocket jumps than normally after getting 150'd.

There are many more examples that [i]frequently[/i] occur, making this weapon overpowered, and another has to deal with every sniper vs sniper duel that occurs if one sniper is using the machina. i would go into a much greater depth about why this weapon simply shouldn't exist if you want to actually talk about it .[/quote]

To build off of this

[quote=obla]The Machina’s damage buff is mostly insignificant, and the utility of [b]collateral shots isn’t consistently viable[/b] enough for the weapon to be considered unbalanced. As such, the Machina remains unbanned.[/quote]

It doesn't matter if it's consistently viable or not, getting any collateral kill is a kill that shouldn't have happened more importantly though is if you get multiple kills are hit multiple target for 173. I've already had a couple last defenses where I hit 3 players even though I only killed 1 person both times taking a team down 1 player and effectively eliminating the other 2. The worst part is this is mostly random; of all the collateral shots I've hit I've only purposely did them maybe 15-20% of the time. It just feels weird to basically put an end to a push with 1 shot that would've otherwise had little impact as it would've only done a single 150 to someone.
11
#11
-49 Frags +

Vacc was never a problem, what is wrong with you? Just something that gives you a chance at defending last with uber disad.
Solemn Vow on the other hand is still useless but you keep it banned.

Vacc was never a problem, what is wrong with you? Just something that gives you a chance at defending last with uber disad.
Solemn Vow on the other hand is still useless but you keep it banned.
12
#12
18 Frags +

ban the machina pls

ban the machina pls
13
#13
11 Frags +
spammyhhttps://youtu.be/GmjFj9g5BHs

This is what downfragging does to a man. Share to spread the love and end the hate.

[quote=spammyh]https://youtu.be/GmjFj9g5BHs[/quote]
This is what downfragging does to a man. Share to spread the love and end the hate.
14
#14
7 Frags +
shorasVacc was never a problem, what is wrong with you? Just something that gives you a chance at defending last with uber disad.
Solemn Vow on the other hand is still useless but you keep it banned.

the thing is the bolded idea is not a good concept; most maps already have a flawed last as it is, and you should be rewarded for having uber advantage going into last, rather than coming closer to equalizing the chances of failing/succeeding.

[quote=shoras]Vacc was never a problem, what is wrong with you? [b]Just something that gives you a chance at defending last with uber disad.[/b]
Solemn Vow on the other hand is still useless but you keep it banned.[/quote]

the thing is the bolded idea is not a good concept; most maps already have a flawed last as it is, and you should be rewarded for having uber advantage going into last, rather than coming closer to equalizing the chances of failing/succeeding.
15
#15
-7 Frags +

It seems like the reasons for the jarate ban could very easily be applied to the crossbow.

It seems like the reasons for the jarate ban could very easily be applied to the crossbow.
16
#16
27 Frags +

nothing annoyed me more than when a medic gets caught out and mini-critted half of my team because of his strong secondary, that fucking crossbow

nothing annoyed me more than when a medic gets caught out and mini-critted half of my team because of his strong secondary, that fucking crossbow
17
#17
-33 Frags +
ekunshorasVacc was never a problem, what is wrong with you? Just something that gives you a chance at defending last with uber disad.
Solemn Vow on the other hand is still useless but you keep it banned.

the thing is the bolded idea is not a good concept; most maps already have a flawed last as it is, and you should be rewarded for having uber advantage going into last, rather than coming closer to equalizing the chances of failing/succeeding.

A whole uber is still much more significant than a couple of vacc bubbles. If you want uber ad to be a free last cap, we should also ban all defensive offclasses.

[quote=ekun][quote=shoras]Vacc was never a problem, what is wrong with you? [b]Just something that gives you a chance at defending last with uber disad.[/b]
Solemn Vow on the other hand is still useless but you keep it banned.[/quote]

the thing is the bolded idea is not a good concept; most maps already have a flawed last as it is, and you should be rewarded for having uber advantage going into last, rather than coming closer to equalizing the chances of failing/succeeding.[/quote]
A whole uber is still much more significant than a couple of vacc bubbles. If you want uber ad to be a free last cap, we should also ban all defensive offclasses.
18
#18
22 Frags +
CrayonIt seems like the reasons for the jarate ban could very easily be applied to the crossbow.

There is a difference between how the crossbow adds to the game and throwing a bottle into the enemy team every 15 seconds. Did you even read the reasoning for the crossbow?

[quote=Crayon]It seems like the reasons for the jarate ban could very easily be applied to the crossbow.[/quote]
There is a difference between how the crossbow adds to the game and throwing a bottle into the enemy team every 15 seconds. Did you even read the reasoning for the crossbow?
19
#19
10 Frags +
shorasekunshorasVacc was never a problem, what is wrong with you? Just something that gives you a chance at defending last with uber disad.
Solemn Vow on the other hand is still useless but you keep it banned.

the thing is the bolded idea is not a good concept; most maps already have a flawed last as it is, and you should be rewarded for having uber advantage going into last, rather than coming closer to equalizing the chances of failing/succeeding.
A whole uber is still much more significant than a couple of vacc bubbles. If you want uber ad to be a free last cap, we should also ban all defensive offclasses.

it doesn't matter that uber>vacc, since it's the idea that it increases the chances of successful last holds.

u r suggesting banning classes = banning weapons, so you're probably trolling. if not, pushing last with uber ad is fair (without vacc), and should not be "free" so banning classes isn't necessary.

[quote=shoras][quote=ekun][quote=shoras]Vacc was never a problem, what is wrong with you? [b]Just something that gives you a chance at defending last with uber disad.[/b]
Solemn Vow on the other hand is still useless but you keep it banned.[/quote]

the thing is the bolded idea is not a good concept; most maps already have a flawed last as it is, and you should be rewarded for having uber advantage going into last, rather than coming closer to equalizing the chances of failing/succeeding.[/quote]
A whole uber is still much more significant than a couple of vacc bubbles. If you want uber ad to be a free last cap, we should also ban all defensive offclasses.[/quote]

it doesn't matter that uber>vacc, since it's the idea that it increases the chances of successful last holds.

u r suggesting banning classes = banning weapons, so you're probably trolling. if not, pushing last with uber ad is fair (without vacc), and should not be "free" so banning classes isn't necessary.
20
#20
6 Frags +

high level teams fail last pushes with uber ad all the time lol it's not a free last cap

high level teams fail last pushes with uber ad all the time lol it's not a free last cap
21
#21
-19 Frags +
corsasince it's the idea that it increases the chances of successful last holds

So the idea of successful last holds is bad?

[quote=corsa]since it's the idea that it increases the chances of successful last holds[/quote]
So the idea of successful last holds is bad?
22
#22
9 Frags +
oblaThe core values of the original Global Whitelist which involved allowing weapons which did not have compelling reasons were retained.

Can we talk about this point, I can definitely get behind transparency for all the unlocks themselves but this seems to be the major issue most people have with the whitelist. Only 31% of people actually want that (according to GentlemanJon's survey, 15% for the current whitelist and 16% for a very permissive one) with 62% against (40% shorter, 20% disliked things banned, 2% ban everything) with 7% (all those options suck) obviously not liking it but not necessarily being strongly against it.

Is there any particular reason this was done, or is this whitelist meant to be just some quick changes to the previous one with bigger changes still on the table for later?

[quote=obla]The core values of the original Global Whitelist which involved allowing weapons which did not have compelling reasons were retained.[/quote]
Can we talk about this point, I can definitely get behind transparency for all the unlocks themselves but this seems to be the major issue most people have with the whitelist. Only 31% of people actually want that (according to GentlemanJon's survey, 15% for the current whitelist and 16% for a very permissive one) with 62% against (40% shorter, 20% disliked things banned, 2% ban everything) with 7% (all those options suck) obviously not liking it but not necessarily being strongly against it.

Is there any particular reason this was done, or is this whitelist meant to be just some quick changes to the previous one with bigger changes still on the table for later?
23
#23
8 Frags +
shorasA whole uber is still much more significant than a couple of vacc bubbles. If you want uber ad to be a free last cap, we should also ban all defensive offclasses.

I don't know dude. When an enemy med dies early on a mid and is able to come up vaccinator and get a few charges while healing a 450 hp heavy, who is on brass beast for maximum resistances, it becomes pretty stupid. Demos pipes do 25 damage, his sticks do less and scout meat shots do slightly more. Now your uber is fading, the heavy may be low now but the damage resistance of the brass beast kicks in and he becomes even harder to spam down, plus his gun does a bunch of damage.

I see this run a lot in prem matches and I know my team was doing it.

[quote=shoras]A whole uber is still much more significant than a couple of vacc bubbles. If you want uber ad to be a free last cap, we should also ban all defensive offclasses.[/quote]

I don't know dude. When an enemy med dies early on a mid and is able to come up vaccinator and get a few charges while healing a 450 hp heavy, who is on brass beast for maximum resistances, it becomes pretty stupid. Demos pipes do 25 damage, his sticks do less and scout meat shots do slightly more. Now your uber is fading, the heavy may be low now but the damage resistance of the brass beast kicks in and he becomes even harder to spam down, plus his gun does a bunch of damage.

I see this run a lot in prem matches and I know my team was doing it.
24
#24
20 Frags +
shorascorsasince it's the idea that it increases the chances of successful last holdsSo the idea of successful last holds is bad?

it's annoying and unfun as fuck why is this is so hard to understand. you have to be trolling

[quote=shoras][quote=corsa]since it's the idea that it increases the chances of successful last holds[/quote]
So the idea of successful last holds is bad?[/quote]

it's annoying and unfun as fuck why is this is so hard to understand. you have to be trolling
25
#25
17 Frags +
shorascorsasince it's the idea that it increases the chances of successful last holdsSo the idea of successful last holds is bad?

i feel like i'm being trolled

i'm not going to explain why ur dumb lol

[quote=shoras][quote=corsa]since it's the idea that it increases the chances of successful last holds[/quote]
So the idea of successful last holds is bad?[/quote]

i feel like i'm being trolled

i'm not going to explain why ur dumb lol
26
#26
-14 Frags +
Nurseyit's annoying and unfun as fuck

If that's your reason, I'll just leave that here:

Machina - Unbanned (Unchanged)
Cow Mangler 5000 - Unbanned (Unchanged)
Natascha - Unbanned (Unchanged)
Pomson 6000 - Unbanned (Unchanged)
[quote=Nursey]it's annoying and unfun as fuck[/quote]
If that's your reason, I'll just leave that here:
[quote]Machina - Unbanned (Unchanged)
Cow Mangler 5000 - Unbanned (Unchanged)
Natascha - Unbanned (Unchanged)
Pomson 6000 - Unbanned (Unchanged)[/quote]
27
#27
14 Frags +

yes my opinions on unlocks really held a lot of input in this privately discussed whitelist meeting

because those unlocks are allowed doesn't mean i dont find them annoying

shut up and think before u post

yes my opinions on unlocks really held a lot of input in this privately discussed whitelist meeting

because those unlocks are allowed doesn't mean i dont find them annoying

shut up and think before u post
28
#28
-20 Frags +

Dunno why am I even trying to discuss this with you. Last time a couple of yanks were trying to prove me that Battallion's Backup is op as fuck and screaming it should be banned (someday before first global whitelist).

Dunno why am I even trying to discuss this with you. Last time a couple of yanks were trying to prove me that Battallion's Backup is op as fuck and screaming it should be banned (someday before first global whitelist).
29
#29
14 Frags +

Vaccinator Ban is 100% justified
Using Vaccinator to mitigate an enemy UBER advantage is a crutch too many teams rely on these days.

Instead of using a gimmick item ability to hide or cover-up bad team play, try:

Learning to track Uber better
Learning to use your own Uber better
Practice kiting another teams Uber properly for the Post-Uber fight

shorascorsasince it's the idea that it increases the chances of successful last holdsSo the idea of successful last holds is bad?

Successful Last holds are wonderful if you use skill and team play to overcome the disadvantage.

If another team had advantage on you, then you probably fucked up at some point and should be punished. Why should some gimmick item ability save your ass from bad play or being outplayed?

Vaccinator Ban is 100% justified
Using Vaccinator to mitigate an enemy UBER advantage is a crutch too many teams rely on these days.

Instead of using a gimmick item ability to hide or cover-up bad team play, try:

Learning to track Uber better
Learning to use your own Uber better
Practice kiting another teams Uber properly for the Post-Uber fight

[quote=shoras][quote=corsa]since it's the idea that it increases the chances of successful last holds[/quote]
So the idea of successful last holds is bad?[/quote]

Successful Last holds are wonderful if you use skill and team play to overcome the disadvantage.

If another team had advantage on you, then you probably fucked up at some point and should be punished. Why should some gimmick item ability save your ass from bad play or being outplayed?
30
#30
18 Frags +

im pretty happy with this even tho i still think the machina should be banned

im pretty happy with this even tho i still think the machina should be banned
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