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May Global Whitelist Changes
91
#91
-43 Frags +

Last couple seasons have played out pretty much how you'd expect them to despite the presence of these unlocks that have fueled hysterical threads and surveys proclaiming TF2 has been ruined. If anything we should be testing and unbanning more items until we find the things that are genuinely game breaking, not simply annoying. And please don't try to manufacture credibility from supposed conversations with invite players when the players from the top 2 ESEA-I teams (for the past 4 seasons) were not consulted whatsoever.

Last couple seasons have played out pretty much how you'd expect them to despite the presence of these unlocks that have fueled hysterical threads and surveys proclaiming TF2 has been ruined. If anything we should be testing and unbanning more items until we find the things that are genuinely game breaking, not simply annoying. And please don't try to manufacture credibility from supposed conversations with invite players when the players from the top 2 ESEA-I teams ([i]for the past 4 seasons[/i]) were not consulted whatsoever.
92
#92
55 Frags +
b4nnyLast couple seasons have played out pretty much how you'd expect them to despite the presence of these unlocks that have fueled hysterical threads and surveys proclaiming TF2 has been ruined. If anything we should be testing and unbanning more items until we find the things that are genuinely game breaking, not simply annoying. And please don't try to manufacture credibility from supposed conversations with invite players when the players from the top 2 ESEA-I teams (for the past 4 seasons) were not consulted whatsoever.

just because your team wins doesn't mean the jarate isnt broken

[quote=b4nny]Last couple seasons have played out pretty much how you'd expect them to despite the presence of these unlocks that have fueled hysterical threads and surveys proclaiming TF2 has been ruined. If anything we should be testing and unbanning more items until we find the things that are genuinely game breaking, not simply annoying. And please don't try to manufacture credibility from supposed conversations with invite players when the players from the top 2 ESEA-I teams ([i]for the past 4 seasons[/i]) were not consulted whatsoever.[/quote]


just because your team wins doesn't mean the jarate isnt broken
93
#93
-35 Frags +

At least consult someone who averages more than 190dpm :(

At least consult someone who averages more than 190dpm :(
94
#94
35 Frags +
b4nnyAt least consult someone who averages more than 190dpm :(

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

[quote=b4nny]At least consult someone who averages more than 190dpm :([/quote]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
95
#95
-22 Frags +
viperb4nnyAt least consult someone who averages more than 190dpm :(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expert

[quote=viper][quote=b4nny]At least consult someone who averages more than 190dpm :([/quote]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem[/quote]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expert
96
#96
43 Frags +
b4nnyviperb4nnyAt least consult someone who averages more than 190dpm :(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominemhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expert

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_relations

[quote=b4nny][quote=viper][quote=b4nny]At least consult someone who averages more than 190dpm :([/quote]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem[/quote]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expert[/quote]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_relations
97
#97
53 Frags +
Lunacideb4nnyviperb4nnyAt least consult someone who averages more than 190dpm :(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominemhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experthttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_relations

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia

[quote=Lunacide][quote=b4nny][quote=viper][quote=b4nny]At least consult someone who averages more than 190dpm :([/quote]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem[/quote]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expert[/quote]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_relations[/quote]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia
98
#98
15 Frags +
b4nnyAt least consult someone who averages more than 190dpm :(

For the record neither me nor anyone on my team was asked, were any invite players talked to or did the apes who let a team running a perma offclass into prem playoffs just decide the whitelist

but to what you said:

http://www.teamfortress.tv/user/corsa

http://i.imgur.com/SS8PDkE.png

can u please explain how "teams finished in their expected placings" isn't a fucking braindead argument now

[quote=b4nny]At least consult someone who averages more than 190dpm :([/quote]



For the record neither me nor anyone on my team was asked, were any invite players talked to or did the apes who let a team running a perma offclass into prem playoffs just decide the whitelist

but to what you said:

http://www.teamfortress.tv/user/corsa

[img]http://i.imgur.com/SS8PDkE.png[/img]

can u please explain how "teams finished in their expected placings" isn't a fucking braindead argument now
99
#99
-5 Frags +
b4nnyLast couple seasons have played out pretty much how you'd expect them to saam "teams finished in their expected placings"

Not quite what I said. Were there any huge upset wins or meta shifts due to unlocks? No. They're not the problem everyone seems to be making them out to be. Based on what you said, no invite players were actually consulted, that's what I'd call an actual problem.

And what's your point with the corsa screenshot? Did you expect EVL to miss the grand finals or something?

[quote=b4nny]Last couple seasons have played out pretty much how you'd expect them to [/quote]
[quote=saam] "teams finished in their expected placings"[/quote]
Not quite what I said. Were there any huge upset wins or meta shifts due to unlocks? No. They're not the problem everyone seems to be making them out to be. Based on what you said, no invite players were actually consulted, that's what I'd call an actual problem.

And what's your point with the corsa screenshot? Did you expect EVL to miss the grand finals or something?
100
#100
22 Frags +
b4nny

What does TF2 gain from unbanning weapons that are annoying?

Who benfits from finding out if an unlock is just annoying to play against or if it's gamebreaking?

[quote=b4nny][/quote]
What does TF2 gain from unbanning weapons that are annoying?

Who benfits from finding out if an unlock is just annoying to play against or if it's gamebreaking?
101
#101
18 Frags +
b4nnyb4nnyLast couple seasons have played out pretty much how you'd expect them to saam "teams finished in their expected placings"Not quite what I said. Were there any huge upset wins or meta shifts due to unlocks? No. They're not the problem everyone seems to be making them out to be. Based on what you said, no invite players were actually consulted, that's what I'd call an actual problem.

And what's your point with the corsa screenshot? Did you expect EVL to miss the grand finals or something?

Corsa is a player who averaged over 200 dpm and also thinks jarate is retarded

You could put in any number of retarded things into the game and the better team will still almost always win (especially because the skill difference between teams is so massive now). That doesn't mean they add to the game or that they don't actively have a negative impact.

[quote=b4nny][quote=b4nny]Last couple seasons have played out pretty much how you'd expect them to [/quote]
[quote=saam] "teams finished in their expected placings"[/quote]
Not quite what I said. Were there any huge upset wins or meta shifts due to unlocks? No. They're not the problem everyone seems to be making them out to be. Based on what you said, no invite players were actually consulted, that's what I'd call an actual problem.

And what's your point with the corsa screenshot? Did you expect EVL to miss the grand finals or something?[/quote]

Corsa is a player who averaged over 200 dpm and also thinks jarate is retarded

You could put in any number of retarded things into the game and the better team will still almost always win (especially because the skill difference between teams is so massive now). That doesn't mean they add to the game or that they don't actively have a negative impact.
102
#102
23 Frags +
nazarab4nnyWhat does TF2 gain from unbanning weapons that are annoying?

valve major

[quote=nazara][quote=b4nny][/quote]
What does TF2 gain from unbanning weapons that are annoying?
[/quote]

valve major
103
#103
23 Frags +

I feel like the discussions about whitelists don't come from the exact weapons we allow, but the theory behind the whitelist as a whole. Old whitelists were just that - whitelists. They were a list of weapons that made the game better to watch, better to understand, and most importantly, better to play.

Recently, the idea behind weapon bannings are no longer about whitelisting good items, but blacklisting bad items. The original presentation of the global "whitelist" wasn't even a whitelist. It was a blacklist. http://www.teamfortress.tv/36168/global-whitelist-unveiled This is a list of the weapons that are being banned. While it is seemingly trivial semantics, but it shows the ideology shift to banning the bad weapons rather than allowing the good ones.

I personally think that having a whitelist is the better idea, and, according to GentlemanJon's survey so does most of the playerbase.

The difference comes from "The core values of the original Global Whitelist," not a few weapons being on the verge of being allowed or not

I feel like the discussions about whitelists don't come from the exact weapons we allow, but the theory behind the whitelist as a whole. Old whitelists were just that - whitelists. They were a list of weapons that made the game better to watch, better to understand, and most importantly, better to play.

Recently, the idea behind weapon bannings are no longer about whitelisting good items, but blacklisting bad items. The original presentation of the global "whitelist" wasn't even a whitelist. It was a blacklist. http://www.teamfortress.tv/36168/global-whitelist-unveiled This is a list of the weapons that are being banned. While it is seemingly trivial semantics, but it shows the ideology shift to banning the bad weapons rather than allowing the good ones.

I personally think that having a whitelist is the better idea, and, according to GentlemanJon's survey so does most of the playerbase.

The difference comes from "The core values of the original Global Whitelist," not a few weapons being on the verge of being allowed or not
104
#104
13 Frags +

That was their med. Ban this dumb shit. https://youtu.be/0uuVDrMycBY

That was their med. Ban this dumb shit. https://youtu.be/0uuVDrMycBY
105
#105
23 Frags +

Guys if you keep unbanning this stupid shit then a TF2 International in inevitable according to my sources.

Also it's shocking to me I still don't have a nerdstar on this website. I farmed some hardcore frags from the phorofor e girl incident.

Guys if you keep unbanning this stupid shit then a TF2 International in inevitable according to my sources.

Also it's shocking to me I still don't have a nerdstar on this website. I farmed some hardcore frags from the phorofor e girl incident.
106
#106
1 Frags +
AvastGuys if you keep unbanning this stupid shit then a TF2 International in inevitable according to my sources.

Also it's shocking to me I still don't have a nerdstar on this website. I farmed some hardcore frags from the phorofor e girl incident.

i think the formula for nerd stars also factors in amount of posts and posts per day afaik

[quote=Avast]Guys if you keep unbanning this stupid shit then a TF2 International in inevitable according to my sources.

Also it's shocking to me I still don't have a nerdstar on this website. I farmed some hardcore frags from the phorofor e girl incident.[/quote]
i think the formula for nerd stars also factors in amount of posts and posts per day afaik
107
#107
2 Frags +

I'd give avast one of my stars if I could

I'd give avast one of my stars if I could
108
#108
1 Frags +
SpaceCadetI'd give avast one of my stars if I could

This is how I know I could always team up with Space again. Dedicated enough to give me a star. A true team player through and through.

[quote=SpaceCadet]I'd give avast one of my stars if I could[/quote]

This is how I know I could always team up with Space again. Dedicated enough to give me a star. A true team player through and through.
109
#109
2 Frags +

start a patreon to get avast a nerd star

start a patreon to get avast a nerd star
110
#110
-17 Frags +

i'm pretty sure this b4nny guy knows what he's taking about he won TF2 like 12 times or smth

i'm pretty sure this b4nny guy knows what he's taking about he won TF2 like 12 times or smth
111
#111
14 Frags +

ban the dh its glitched. u never miss with it

https://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/68fi0z/new_glitch_never_miss_w_direct_hit/

ban the dh its glitched. u never miss with it

https://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/68fi0z/new_glitch_never_miss_w_direct_hit/
112
#112
-7 Frags +

scout mains tears are delicious

scout mains tears are delicious
113
#113
31 Frags +
b4nny... surveys proclaiming TF2 has been ruined...

I ran a survey to objectively acquire player opinion on unlocks. I missed the part where any of the analysis proclaimed "TF2 has been ruined". I don't think this kind of hyperbole is useful or constructive.

[quote=b4nny]... surveys proclaiming TF2 has been ruined...[/quote]
I ran a survey to objectively acquire player opinion on unlocks. I missed the part where any of the analysis proclaimed "TF2 has been ruined". I don't think this kind of hyperbole is useful or constructive.
114
#114
16 Frags +

To me it looks like b4nny is using the argument: if you can't deal with the unlocks, then you're bad. Instead of trying to create a whitelist that creates the most fun and interesting version of TF2 to play and watch.

To me it looks like b4nny is using the argument: if you can't deal with the unlocks, then you're bad. Instead of trying to create a whitelist that creates the most fun and interesting version of TF2 to play and watch.
115
#115
-1 Frags +
KingCarlban the dh its glitched. u never miss with it

https://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/68fi0z/new_glitch_never_miss_w_direct_hit/

those comments

[quote=KingCarl]ban the dh its glitched. u never miss with it

https://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/68fi0z/new_glitch_never_miss_w_direct_hit/[/quote]

those comments
116
#116
3 Frags +
Lunacide The people who are currently playing at the highest level are overwhelming in support of keeping the crossbow (am I wrong in this?). Overall the net benefit of the crossbow being in the game outweighs the negatives it brings and I don't think it should be banned (uber building needs to go though for real).

I agree with your/botmode/corsa's points for the most part and just want to point out that at least from my perspective playing medic in invite (seems like in eu people are more against it), the crossbow obviously seems broken at times but to ban it would quite drastically change the pace of the game and entire metagame for the worse imo.
Like, jerking off beaming ppl while your team slowly lose dm fights (which you largely have no control over besides healing the right player and positioning yourself correctly to avoid damage) is a lot more boring and easy than having a crossbow and having to make the decision to take off the beam and go for a risky crossbow that may save your teammates life and win the fight for you (or cause them to die if you miss) which adds a huge skill ceiling and ability for medics to carry off their mechanics

The only people who I've seen legitimately come out against allowing the crossbow are older players (marxist, lucrative, ringo, tino) who don't play the game as much anymore, nor currently play in invite and have actual experience with how it plays out in highest level play. I value these opinions of course especially given the experience of the game pre-crossbow buff, but to be honest I think they should be taken with a grain of salt. Just you get tilted in a pug where nursey or someone hits a crazy xbow to save someone's life and win a team fight doesn't mean the weapon should get banned altogether. Even more ridiculous is complaining about people asking to get arrowed, even if it is somewhat silly when you have to literally arrow like 5 people in a row or spend time to go out of your way and bow someone on mid that doesn't mean it its necessarily a bad thing for the game, like if anything that's a good thing cause your teammates actually understand how the game works and want to play around you as a medic rather than continuing to fight with half health and dying like a bot or spending 10seconds to get a pack and be out of the fight lol. I may be wrong but I haven't heard a single player in invite (in pugs, scrims, matchets etc.) who legitimately wants the crossbow banned, for the most part it's just a few stupid occurrences that piss people off, saying it's broken or needs a nerf isn't the same as saying it's so dumb it needs to be banned. Mostly everyone understands the positive benefits it adds to the game outweigh the minor annoyances (or major ones like arrow building which I totally agree shouldn't be a thing).

[quote=Lunacide] The people who are currently playing at the highest level are overwhelming in support of keeping the crossbow (am I wrong in this?). Overall the net benefit of the crossbow being in the game outweighs the negatives it brings and I don't think it should be banned (uber building needs to go though for real).[/quote]
I agree with your/botmode/corsa's points for the most part and just want to point out that at least from my perspective playing medic in invite (seems like in eu people are more against it), the crossbow obviously seems broken at times but to ban it would quite drastically change the pace of the game and entire metagame for the worse imo.
Like, jerking off beaming ppl while your team slowly lose dm fights (which you largely have no control over besides healing the right player and positioning yourself correctly to avoid damage) is a lot more boring and easy than having a crossbow and having to make the decision to take off the beam and go for a risky crossbow that may save your teammates life and win the fight for you (or cause them to die if you miss) which adds a huge skill ceiling and ability for medics to carry off their mechanics

The only people who I've seen legitimately come out against allowing the crossbow are older players (marxist, lucrative, ringo, tino) who don't play the game as much anymore, nor currently play in invite and have actual experience with how it plays out in highest level play. I value these opinions of course especially given the experience of the game pre-crossbow buff, but to be honest I think they should be taken with a grain of salt. Just you get tilted in a pug where nursey or someone hits a crazy xbow to save someone's life and win a team fight doesn't mean the weapon should get banned altogether. Even more ridiculous is complaining about people asking to get arrowed, even if it is somewhat silly when you have to literally arrow like 5 people in a row or spend time to go out of your way and bow someone on mid that doesn't mean it its necessarily a bad thing for the game, like if anything that's a good thing cause your teammates actually understand how the game works and want to play around you as a medic rather than continuing to fight with half health and dying like a bot or spending 10seconds to get a pack and be out of the fight lol. I may be wrong but I haven't heard a single player in invite (in pugs, scrims, matchets etc.) who legitimately wants the crossbow banned, for the most part it's just a few stupid occurrences that piss people off, saying it's broken or needs a nerf isn't the same as saying it's so dumb it needs to be banned. Mostly everyone understands the positive benefits it adds to the game outweigh the minor annoyances (or major ones like arrow building which I totally agree shouldn't be a thing).
117
#117
9 Frags +

My two biggest complaints with xbow:
-interferes with fundamentals (uber tracking and crit heals, I can't believe how many ostensibly open+ medics barely grasp these basic ideas)
-allows your teammates to do dumb shit or make glaring mistakes but be much harder to punish

but at this point I'd far prefer crossbow stay and all the other dumb shit go back to being banned, I only ever started playing 6s in the first place because stupid items and classes weren't used. Most of those unlocks have gotten far more broken since 4 years ago (or just didn't exist yet)

An item not being particularly useful wasn't an argument for allowing it back then and it shouldn't be now

My two biggest complaints with xbow:
-interferes with fundamentals (uber tracking and crit heals, I can't believe how many ostensibly open+ medics barely grasp these basic ideas)
-allows your teammates to do dumb shit or make glaring mistakes but be much harder to punish

but at this point I'd far prefer crossbow stay and all the other dumb shit go back to being banned, I only ever started playing 6s in the first place because stupid items and classes weren't used. Most of those unlocks have gotten far more broken since 4 years ago (or just didn't exist yet)

An item not being particularly useful wasn't an argument for allowing it back then and it shouldn't be now
118
#118
2 Frags +

medics don't even want to use medigun anymore half the time, just like new scouts should be forced to unbind spacebar for 300 hours medics should have to go through a needles only trial period

me every pug after medic with 400 games misses 3rd arrow in a row: JUST HEAL ME I HAVE CRIT HEALS

me after getting arrowed when I have full hp and asked for a buff: brb going shopping

medics don't even want to use medigun anymore half the time, just like new scouts should be forced to unbind spacebar for 300 hours medics should have to go through a needles only trial period

me every pug after medic with 400 games misses 3rd arrow in a row: JUST HEAL ME I HAVE CRIT HEALS

me after getting arrowed when I have full hp and asked for a buff: [url=http://www.homedepot.com/c/buying_guide_rope_manila_nylon_polypro_cotton_HT_BG_HA]brb going shopping[/url]
119
#119
6 Frags +

Roll the bow back to this update and I 100% want it in, because it is actually fun as fuck to use and does add another dimension to med. The only reason I want it banned right now is because of just how absurd it actually is, it heals way too much and as has already been stated, the uber building is actually retarded as shit, and this is coming from someone who abuses it, and has been abusing it for 2 years in literally every game I play, including pugs. I love it, but its stupid.

I don't want to ban it just because I want needles back (i also do but that's not the reason), I want it banned because in its current state it is much too strong, and that comes back to my question about consistency when it comes to ban reasons. I am not advocating for single weapon bans, I am advocating for a ban list that follows a set of rules that make sense and that people can easily understand, because currently we have to write essays and have 5+ page threads to try and justify bans or unlocks. That's whats i want to change, it just so happens that the bow is a glaring example of that.

Roll the bow back to [url=https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/November_1,_2013_Patch]this[/url] update and I 100% want it in, because it is actually fun as fuck to use and does add another dimension to med. The only reason I want it banned right now is because of just how absurd it actually is, it heals way too much and as has already been stated, the uber building is actually retarded as shit, and this is coming from someone who abuses it, and has been abusing it for 2 years in literally every game I play, including pugs. I love it, but its stupid.

I don't want to ban it just because I want needles back (i also do but that's not the reason), I want it banned because in its current state it is much too strong, and that comes back to my question about consistency when it comes to ban reasons. I am not advocating for single weapon bans, I am advocating for a ban list that follows a set of rules that make sense and that people can easily understand, because currently we have to write essays and have 5+ page threads to try and justify bans or unlocks. That's whats i want to change, it just so happens that the bow is a glaring example of that.
120
#120
12 Frags +
b4nnyLast couple seasons have played out pretty much how you'd expect them to despite the presence of these unlocks that have fueled hysterical threads and surveys proclaiming TF2 has been ruined. If anything we should be testing and unbanning more items until we find the things that are genuinely game breaking, not simply annoying. And please don't try to manufacture credibility from supposed conversations with invite players when the players from the top 2 ESEA-I teams (for the past 4 seasons) were not consulted whatsoever.

Unbanning retarded weapons like cow mangler, or machina are straight upgrades, and I don't think that's how the game should be played. Also Unbanning weapons isn't going to make the game more fun, or like look "valve look at us we are play testing your broken weapons while we kill comp". I rather ban a weapon like those mention in op, (except crossbow it's a fundamental for medic now) and make the game more enjoyable.

I also run a pretty big NA pug group, that is sponsored by accelerate servers, and for the last week I made my own custom whitelist, that is pretty restrictive(bans alot of unnecessary weapons like jumpers, shields,cow mangler etc..) I wanted to experiment the quality of the pugs. What my goal was not to make try hard pugs , or not another meme xddddd pug group, but to inspire people to not throw, or care about winning which what makes the game fun, and without being constantly judged on how good you did in logs. Now I know I'm going to get responses like its a pug no one cares, but this is the attitude I'm trying to change. I have had lots of fun moments with the current whitelist I'm using. Now people will say well these weapons have situational uses, my argument is no they don't.

Tl;tr if some are too broken , putting these weapons in league play will not make the game "more enjoyable", all in all Unbanning weapons is a bad idea, I think we should have a more restrictive whitelist.

[quote=b4nny]Last couple seasons have played out pretty much how you'd expect them to despite the presence of these unlocks that have fueled hysterical threads and surveys proclaiming TF2 has been ruined. If anything we should be testing and unbanning more items until we find the things that are genuinely game breaking, not simply annoying. And please don't try to manufacture credibility from supposed conversations with invite players when the players from the top 2 ESEA-I teams ([i]for the past 4 seasons[/i]) were not consulted whatsoever.[/quote]
Unbanning retarded weapons like cow mangler, or machina are straight upgrades, and I don't think that's how the game should be played. Also Unbanning weapons isn't going to make the game more fun, or like look "valve look at us we are play testing your broken weapons while we kill comp". I rather ban a weapon like those mention in op, (except crossbow it's a fundamental for medic now) and make the game more enjoyable.

I also run a pretty big NA pug group, that is sponsored by accelerate servers, and for the last week I made my own custom whitelist, that is pretty restrictive(bans alot of unnecessary weapons like jumpers, shields,cow mangler etc..) I wanted to experiment the quality of the pugs. What my goal was not to make try hard pugs , or not another meme xddddd pug group, but to inspire people to not throw, or care about winning which what makes the game fun, and without being constantly judged on how good you did in logs. Now I know I'm going to get responses like its a pug no one cares, but this is the attitude I'm trying to change. I have had lots of fun moments with the current whitelist I'm using. Now people will say well these weapons have situational uses, my argument is no they don't.

Tl;tr if some are too broken , putting these weapons in league play will not make the game "more enjoyable", all in all Unbanning weapons is a bad idea, I think we should have a more restrictive whitelist.
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