Why are you even posting bastid nobody on this forum gives a fuck about if the gru is op. Heavy is fucking lame and we still like 6v6. Next tf2 apocalypse thread when?

Three cheers for that dreamboat guy!

:3

Because I like to steer those of pure intentions but misguided opinions down the right path :)

What would you like to talk about Benk?

I'm open to alternative formats if they're all about what made me fall in love with 6s TF2.

I love TF2 because it balances technical skill, teamwork, and tactics in a way I don't find in most other games. It lets people play to their strengths and produces all sorts of play styles that blend in mesh in different ways. Plus it's fast paced and high stakes.

I'm don't like CS:GO much cuz I'm not very patient, always like to be doing something. I don't like DOTA much for the same reason.

Point is that I'll support any format that gives me those things, but right now that's just 6s. HL is kinda fun but I don't feel like I make much of an impact on the game, feels like low stakes when it's evenly matched. Arena Respawn looks kinda fun but a lot of the weapons in the game detract from what I love about it.

I do agree that 6s has gotten kind of boring lately but I don't blame 6s. The demo update is the first meaningful update to happen in a long while, and it was mostly just tweaks to existing weapons. I've decided I'll be okay with whatever happens to 6s. It had a real good run and I still love the game but it's exhausting trying to stay excited and interested when TF2 barely changes.

God you sound like a pain in the ass irl.

But I'm just kidding... of course that's not how I really am... be nice

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/738/025/db0.jpg

dokidoki you make so many posts that coincide with my opinions that im just gonna add you right now okay
edit: god steam add-a-friend is so fucking bad i cant even

Considering I just realised this (and I know this probably has been said a hundred times but I tend to avoid posts like this because they usually lead to nowhere) let me spell out WHY expecting valve's support for the current 6v6 format is utopian.

If Valve would support competitive tf2 in it's current state that would eventually mean drawing more attention to it, right? More attention means reaching a broader audience, consisting of people new to the game etc etc.

These new players, who probably haven't spent any money on tf2, watch a stream and immediately (or eventually) notice that stock weapons are used almost exclusively. Considering it's natural for a new player to look up to a better player and try to imitate his or her playstyle in hopes of becoming a better player himself, this player will, hypothetically of course, try to play exclusively with the stock weapons as well. I reckon this is a process we've all been through before we entered competitive tf2. (correct me if I'm wrong)

So I reckon that in Valve's philosophy promoting 6v6 tf2 automatically leads to promoting not spending any money on the game (which is now free to play and relies on, amongst other things like hats, people buying weapons they think will give them an edge over other players). This of course, from a business point of view is pretty suicidal. Now, I know I might have drawn this to an extreme, but that's only to emphasise the point.

I'm not formulating my own opinion, I'm just trying to analyse WHY Valve wouldn't ever support 6v6 tf2 in its current state. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, nor that it's a good thing, just putting it out there.

(Excuse me if my English was a bit poor at times, I'm not a native-speaker)

I am currently a patreon but I feel that I'm wasting my support on something as absurd as arena respawn. It has shown absolutely nothing of value so far.

Competitive TF2 should not be closer to pubs. If anything pubs should be closer to competitive. An old no longer active format does just that (8v8), and that was the first structured format TF2 had, and valve went with 12v12 no limits which potentially turns into something akin to this

"Their meta" which I assume is 12v12 no restrictions on classes/unlocks would more than likely devolve into:
Demos
Medics
Heavies
Short Circuit/Wrangler engineers

Are they just inept at understanding how "broken" their game is without structure/restrictions?

Inept or willfully ignorant. Either way they don't seem to give too much of a shit.

I didn't really read much about the topic but I just wanted to say I'm still positive about competitive TF2, I really don't think it's suddenly going to "die".

I will continue my support for 6v6 and any other formats that are being played, whatever happens. Our YouTube channel grew more than it ever did in 2014, and I'm very positive about 2015. Good coverage and videos bring in new players, so let's keep playing and submitting clips!

Sounds like we need some CTF that actually works in tf2. It actually makes other classes much needed similar to tfc. TFC always had a healthy mix of ctf/cp maps/epicenter/etc which created a good variety on gameplay. Also created more buzz amidst competition because some teams were better at one game mode and not so much the other. Yes we have koth/cp but maybe we need to elaborate some more. Find a setup that supports perhaps 8v8 ctf like tfc did and have a set # of people on offense and defense (4+4), allowing teams to use whatever combination of classes they'd like with class limits on only medics, demos & heavies for obvious reasons on either side of offense or defense. Imagine offense being 1 medic, 1 soldier, 2 scouts.. And imagine defense being 1 medic, 1 engineer, 1 demo, 1 soldier. Actually after writing this it might even be better to run it 9v9 which might make it extremely hard to field enough players but we did it in tfc for a long time so it's possible. Valves tried to incorporate a variety of modes but we really stick with the same old year after year aside from a few new maps. Need to think outside the box and see what can be fun and competitive. Do you think highlander was started with TF2? It was a thing in TFC for a long time.

-team signups are at a record low, one league's already blacked out TF2 after only a year
-you've created a metagame where, because things can be banned for being "unfun", nothing ever bothers to develop lest it pisses off a random invite player
-robin even openly told sal this, and everyone's response was to get hostile at the idea, so nothing ever came from his talks since it was clear your side refused to cooperate (have you ever considered why valve doesn't like speaking to y'all since then?)
-you're all still supporting a company that was absolutely okay with using your competitive scene for that sweet cryptocoin, even though now all signs point to them wanting away from you

but no, the problem's, uh, this mode. or that player. or it's holidays, or it's not holidays, or it's raining, or it's sunny, etc etc etc

On an average day valve has like two people working on TF2.

Those people don't care.

We have a community of thousands who do care. Rely on them. Work your asses off to make cool stuff. Become good players. Make good leagues and casts. Code new tools and plugins. Coach newbie mixes or something. There's something everyone can do to make comp TF2 a better place for everyone else.

That's how TF2 remains a game that we all love to play for years to come.

Woah, are we looking at the same open? Because I see 47 teams signed up 5 days before registration ends, which is about as close to a record low as December 21st was to the end of the world.

I don't even know what your second point is, who isn't bothering to develop? Develop what, new maps, game modes? Because people are developing both of those right now.

I'll agree that we didn't have a positive response to Valve the first time this came around and if that fucked over our chances of getting support then that's prolly our own fault.

TF2 wasn't specifically targeted by ESEA, if anything it's the opposite because the bitcoin scandal happened in the offseason when only CS Pplayers run the client for pugs.

What do we want from valve?
* An automatic 6v6 and highlander match-making system that allows us to queue up alone or with a party to be matched up with other players of equal skill
* Money for prize pools and sending top players to LANs

How will we get it?
* By creating a game mode that isn't 6v6 or highlander and which is more similar to pubs
* add a pick / ban system, no matter how little sense that makes

Why the fuck are we even bothering trying to appeal to Valve? They don't care for the competitive game that we love, and they have since moved on to other games long, long ago (CS:GO / DOTA 2). We're definitely never going to get any money for prize pools and LANs, and in order for us to get the match-making system that we want, we'd have to subvert the competitive format to such a degree that it is no longer a game that's worthwhile to play.

If Valve really wanted to actually make something happen they could have easily made match-making for highlander with no whitelist, which would be, as far as I can tell, a pretty simple setup compared to what they have in place for DOTA and CS:GO.

TF2 competitive isn't dying or getting stale, it's just chugging slowly along like it always have, with no support from Valve, sponsored and run by the community of players. Just keep playing the game you love, show your support and let people know how awesome it is, and we'll be playing and having fun for many years to come. Sadly, at this point valve seems to have completely lost touch with the competitive scene to a point where they appear to not even fully understand their own game and what makes it work, or what breaks it.

Stop expecting Valve to save TF2. They won't.

I still believe that Valve would give a shit about competitive TF if they would ever release TF3 with matchmaking for both 6v6 for actual players and HL for the pubbers and at the start without any unlocks and actually add weapons that are balanced to both gamemodes equally as well for the pubs too.

If that won't happen, then Valve's competitive TF2 should also be completely without unlocks, but if that won't happen either then it's a lost cause, nobody should bother to attempt to save TF2 anymore after that.

However I guess we've already went beyond that point so I'm not sure what's even left anymore, I'm still just playing this game for fun with friends, and not to become a successful eSports gamer. If I would want to attempt with the latter then I'll just move on to another game.

You've already shown your capacity to ignore logic but I'll bite. eXtv has been instrumental in the growth of competitive 6s for YEARS. Randomly pulling that support in favor of a new, untested game-mode that offers little to no tangible benefit (yet) is almost a sure fire way to further split and isolate the community. At this point in time, tf2 as an esport is on life support at the highest levels. If you lose lan, and the highest level of competition leaves the game, you're left with the 12 year old playerbase of UGC 6s, and the game will stagnate and die, at least in North America. Splitting this community is a terrible idea, especially for a gamemode such as A:R (see below).

Trying out something new != calling out 6s as stale and saying the players are unwilling to try new things in front of aforementioned 108,000 subscribers. hmm.

That aside, in regards to your "complicated" assertion:

Here is what you HAVE to explain to somebody about 6s. There is an established meta, but as far as the actual gamemode goes, the technical rules are:

• 6 players each team
  
• 1 demo/medic/sniper/engi/heavy
  
• 2 everything else
  
• certain weapons are banned

Add in to this that pubbers already play and are familiar with the gamemodes of koth and 5cp.

Here's highlander:

• 9 players each team
  
• one of each class
  
• certain (very few) weapons are banned

Add in to this that pubbers already play and are familiar with koth, 5cp, and payload. A/D (steel/gpit) probably not so much.

Then we have A:R:

• 5 players each team
  
• one of each class, except this changes every game
  
• vaccinator banned
  
• you take mini-crits while on the point*
  
• you can respawn in arena mode*
  
• the only way to respawn is capping the point, which respawns your whole team*
  
• before the round, each team needs to agree on a CLASS ban*
  
• effectively, each round you're limited to 7 classes*
  
• you can still win the round by wiping the other team.
  
• you can also win by running down the 50 seconds timer on the point.*

Add in to this that arena as a gamemode is not familiar for the majority of pubbers. Furthermore, items with an asterisk are items that would be completely unfamiliar/new to any pubber, even an expert in arena. The barrier for entry of competitive play might not be that high but I think that's more due to the fact that you can play with little to no DM and do fairly well, at this point in time.

How is it not MUCH more complicated, especially to the average pubber?

If Valve wants a "competitive" TF2 to happen, they will do it. All signs point to that they don't.
I don't get why they never tried to make a go of it, but it's what happened.

It's disingenuous for them to act like the way the community plays is the problem - they left it to it's own devices and so they built a game they wanted to play.

I, personally, think the whitelist could be expanded significantly without major damage to the game, leaving all but the most broken items in and most people wouldn't run them. It would make games a touch gimmicky and slow the game down at times, but if it would make Valve suddenly turn the car around and give big time support to comp, it would be 100% worth it, IMHO.

However, I am 99.9% certain if we did that, they wouldn't. Save your hope for TF3.

Valve's balance philosophy right now is that if everyone uses something, it should be changed. You can see it with CSGO. You can see it in earlier TF2 weapon balances.

The difference is, the CSGO was community will abuse a weapon to hell if it's OP, forcing valve to take a look at it. This happened with the CZ-75a. People complained that it was OP, to which Valve replied "prove it at Dreamhack."

In TF2, we just ban it and move on. Comp TF2 players want to stick to as close as possible to release mechanics. Release TF2 was a crafted experience that rewarded getting better with easily predictable and readable player silhouettes. CSGO is too: All guns have distinct ways to tell apart, and you can (within reason) predict what a team will run if you keep track of the economy. Which leads me to the point:

Valve fucked up.

While CSGO may have added new weapons and mechanics that weren't present in previous titles, Valve made sure to work with pros so that nothing in the game broke the CS design philosophy, which wasn't even Valve's doing in the first place.

With TF2, Valve carelessly added new weapons and mechanics that go against the carefully balanced game that they set out to create after 9 years of development. After 7 more years, they've fucked up too hard to go back on the decisions they've made. The game is chaotic and unpredictable in a setting that allows all of the weapons to be utilized. They want to address this, but they run into the problems that A. No one in Comp play wants to use these weapons and B. No one wants to work on TF2.

I've largely given up on anything coming out of Valve regarding properly balancing TF2. The only hope for that is either a TF3 (as any changes to TF2 will anger the large majority pub population), or a standalone game of someone else's making (people have been looking at Overwatch), and maybe it's time for that.

TF2 has had a 7-year life so far. It's natural for players to just lose interest. Dedicated players will still play and have fun. For instance: the arena shooter scene never really died, dedicated players keep playing as long as they enjoy it. No one in #uscpmpickup is complaining about how there's literally zero developer support for Quake 3, they just play their game. A couple brave souls wanted the arena shooter scene to propser again, so they started Reflex.

If you want TF2 to stay alive, just keep playing it. If you want it to grow, make your own game, because Valve won't.

only a s17 lan fragmovie can save tf2 right now

as someone who's never really played much 6s, and mostly HL, A:R is dumb. I'd rather play a polished version of Mannpower 5v5 or 6v6 over A:R and I'm not terribly excited over that.

http://oism.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/rose-tinted-glasses.jpg

Valve only has so much to do with it I believe.. If this game was that appealing to everyone then it would be thriving. They do put time and effort into the game when there's only so much you can actually do with it. Most games don't get any updates after a few years. A match making system isn't going to bring in thousands of new players. Truth is this game is only liked and appreciated by a small amount of gamers, usually older ones who long for some type of team oriented fps trip with a classic feel. There's nothing really wrong with this game. It just doesn't attract all types of players. The new gen goes for moba's for the most part. I suggest to simply continue playing, tell your friends, enjoy it while it's still here because nothing lasts forever. The good news however.. Valve made too much money off tf2 to let it just die out. There will definitely be another. Enjoy the game and community for what it is until then. That's what I plan on doing. Hopefully they can improve upon the competitive side of things at that time with a fresh start.

earlier u were being dumb but now i think u might have down syndrome

a lot more thought went into release fortress than any of the updates, u can tell just by watching the commentary

you're retarded if you think stock tf2 was anywhere near balanced. retard. doesn't matter if thought was put into it when the end result was imbalance.

-pyro
-demo
-heavy
-spy
-sniper as a class
-dustbowl
-hydro
-2fort

balanced!

and then they released like 2 patches and it was balanced without unlock weapons bam
bastid can you go die in a hole somewhere now

ur post might have a point if any of those things had ever been fixed :\