Ever heard of the quote “Change is hardest at the beginning, messiest in the middle and best at the end.” It's quite obvious were in the messy part.

That doesn't necessarily mean it is bad, it is way too early to say that.

Not all quotes apply to everything just fyi.

I barely quote anything not directly related in the thread itself, but imo this fit perfect.

Are you joking?

Better area denial? Sure if you hit the headshot it's good, but if you miss the team is fucked. Traps are just as effective as ever, and they are still the best "denial" weapon. Literally the only difference is demos can't fight with sticks as effectively. Pipes still work fine. Kritz will mainly go to pockets now, and you probably won't see it in big open areas that much.

I remember back in the day when soldiers used to have 56 rockets. We got nerfed, people cried, people switched classes, others adapted. Everyone needs to calm down.

the stickies taht used to deny area so well now do 20-40 damage so it's actually worse than a b ody shot, doesn't even need to be a headshot. you're a soldier you wouldn't understand.

give us 12 stickies, give us 16 just leave my damage numbers alone!

I've played the game since fucking beta. I think I can wrap my head around it without maining the class.

did you actually compare ammo count change to damage change?
i fucking wish they just changed the ammo count

I did. I never said it was exactly the same tho. I was comparing the reactions to the nerfs.

Soldiers got an ammo nerf. More recently our main melee weapon started making us take mini crits.

While it didn't cause as much anger, scouts kinda got a nerf by banning Bonk. (A lot of scouts would use it to just get behind, or out of bad spots after making a bad play).

Demos got a damage nerf on sticks. Traps are still just as effective. Pipes are just as effective. Back in the day fucking solid would run targe in invite matches (not always, but often) because he could hit crazy pipes. Demos with good pipe aim will be in high demand now.

I know it's gotta suck for demo mains to get a damage nerf, but all I'm saying is its not the end of the world.

(Edit: escape plan thing added to soldier nerfs)

Tide turner should be allowed, way more interesting to watch then sticky spam/traps :)

What i don't get about this community is they turn off random spread and crits, disable most of the weapons, have class restrictions and play 8 maps and 2 game modes, but their worried demos doing their old damage is the thing that is going to turn pub players away.

The pub players being put off thing never made sense to me, pub players who want to play competitive don't accidentally stumble in to a more competitive game. They aren't like "WHOOPS I'm playing a pick up 6v6 game." They make a conscious decision to try competitive out and realize the same things they were doing before might have to change..
Other games had promods as well and did just fine, Q3 had OSP and CPMA, CoD had many different promods.. It's fine to change a game to create a better experience, sometimes developers then implement those features because they realize it made their game 20x better.. I.E Quake Live

anything along the lines of "just use pipes", "have good pipe aim", etc., is a really weak argument to show that you are for this nerf. it's not a hit scan weapon, nor can it completely miss the enemy's body and still do substantial damage splashing off the ground/wall. clockwork had a well-written post on this.

Thank you for letting me know what my opinion is on the matter.

You are wrong. I am not for the nerf, but I don't see it as game breaking. Demo is going to revert back to how it was played years ago, which in some ways will slow down play. The nerf will open things up in other ways tho, especially for scouts.

I enjoy the game. I always have. I think it was fine the way it was. All I'm trying to say (to the people saying "tf2s dead" or "what class is gonna replace demo" and acting like demo is now unable to do any damage) is that its not the end of the world.

It doesn't matter who is for or against it, or who writes well thought out posts, its not going to make valve undo the change.

could you go back to the hole you came from and stop dashing my fucking HOPES AND DREAMS FUCK

Making the game more boring/slower is surely the way to go to attract more people into it, all the while changing a fundamental game mechanic in a way that is awkward and not tested by anyone on the community, not only won't people not come and try the game a little longer but you upset the people that's been playing for a while, GREAT FUCKING WORK VALVE.

Its not about getting them to start playing competitive matches, its about keeping competitive matches relevant to pub play. When a highlander starts using a different unlock, you start seeing it all over the place in pubs. People watch competitive matches because they want to see the game they play, played well. If you make the game completely different, there is no motivation for them to watch.

On a slightly related note, I think demo should get all 8 stickies in DM now. He might need them.

Anyone else thinking about 5v5?

i thought about it for like 20 seconds before realizing that we would need even smaller 5cp maps, and we're already smaller than normal pub ones

Three soldiers

being slower doesn't necessarily make the game less fun, being stalematey does

Mentoring a highlander team for highlanderopen. After almost 10 minutes of failed pushes on Badwater 3rd, one of the players says

"Scissors, what should we do? This isn't working"

My only response was "I have no fucking idea."

Time runs out, and we end up winning because the enemy team couldn't get past 3rd either. All those targets, nobody to do the damage to move forth.

RIP 9v9, was fun while it lasted. Good job killing the only competitive gamemode you said was viable, valve.

you could argue that the change removed the two main abilities of a demo that highlighted skills (sticky sniping and being ubered/taking out heavies and sentries)

i mean god damn airbursting actually requires skill

Highlander, the one game mode that Valve favored the most, is turning into a giant joke (or even more of one I guess if you weren't fond of it in the first place).

Flank classes can run a muck all over your combo since the Heavy has horrible accuracy ramp up and burst stickies don't do shit anymore. A Demo can only pressure a team back if he wants to use up all of his clip and be useless for a few seconds, and unless you have a coordinated team that has an alive flank when you're ready to push, that full health wrangled level 3 sentry isn't going down.

It's not just Heavy and Demo mains upset, many people are upset that either they got nerfed, or the things they're fighting are just too easy to kill/defend against. Unless a Pyro gets him a Spy can make an easy get away from a combo, Soldiers have an easier time bombing in, and buildings are easier to keep alive.

I know a lot of people are saying "oh it's a meta change, you need to get used to it", but there's so much that everyone has to get used to now that not only is it frustrating to practice something continuously to get to a high level at it, it's just flat out not as much fun anymore, and I know a lot of people ready to just quit if nothing changes.

Such a shame, just as people overall started taking the game mode more seriously and adding a prize pot last season too.

After seeing some more, I think there is a happy medium that should be reached between this update (which is increasingly seeming to be too much of a nerf) and what the demo was before (which obviously doesn't work for Valve, and has it's problems).

Some neat ideas have been suggested in this thread, including but not limited to, tightening the blast radius of stickies, reducing the ramp up time from 2 to 1 seconds, reverting to the old damage and reducing the sticky clip (either to 4 or 6), keeping the current nerf and increasing the pipe launcher clip to 6.

These all seem like better ways of handling a demoman nerf, with the last one being more of a consolation after the fact.

Also, keep it up guys, 6 more posts. We can do it.

We need to hit the 1000 so Bloodsire, what would you do with The Classic?

i like this one the most because not only does it lessen spam, it would also increase the amount of aim people put into stickies knowing that you have 4 less in your clip.

6 pipes on the ground is way stupider than sticky spamming ever was
dmg nerf accross the bored fujcjks th clas
belcurv dmg were u do lik ~old dmg at mid rng but less (more tan now mayb) at point blank woulld be better bcuz thn demo wouldnt be a frag god and u wouldnt litrly kill th game :)

While we're at it can the self-damage to demo also be scaled the same way that stickies are? I'd feel a little better about things if I could do 20 damage jumps to complement the 20 damage stickies.

wtf is wrong with ur keyboard