Worst case scenario: We move to CEVO, they don't give us a LAN.
How to deal with the worst case scenario: Run a LAN anyway, if we really need it.
I mean, it's really hard to run a LAN, yeah. But it's not like we're fucked to not have a LAN if we go with CEVO and they for some bizarre reason don't do a LAN. We can convince some event somewhere to at the very least do a single series for TF2, and organize it based on the results of the CEVO tourney. If you can't manage that then there's just more levels of compromise lesser than that which we can deal with. The bare minimum I can imagine happening is a seasonal TF2 LAN party in some dining room somewhere. This is all awfully silly but my point is that even if we go to CEVO we're not tied down to our scene exclusively using what they provide. Support local LANs, and other events! That's what our scene really needs.
Worst case scenario: We move to CEVO, they don't give us a LAN.
How to deal with the worst case scenario: Run a LAN anyway, if we [i]really[/i] need it.
I mean, it's really hard to run a LAN, yeah. But it's not like we're fucked to not have a LAN if we go with CEVO and they for some bizarre reason don't do a LAN. We can convince some event somewhere to at the very least do a single series for TF2, and organize it based on the results of the CEVO tourney. If you can't manage that then there's just more levels of compromise lesser than that which we can deal with. The bare minimum I can imagine happening is a seasonal TF2 LAN party in some dining room somewhere. This is all awfully silly but my point is that even if we go to CEVO we're not tied down to our scene exclusively using what they provide. Support local LANs, and other events! That's what our scene really needs.
Cruzyukistuff
"i don't understand social situations and i can't interpret sentences well, so i'm going to be obnoxious instead of try and improve myself as a person."
"I don't understand the inner-workings of a team I'm not a part of, yet I'm going to go ahead and talk on their behalf (sarcasm or not)".
Thank you for your contribution to shitting up the thread, and displaying your prime maturity. Woo, I can do sarcasm too.
[quote=Cruz][quote=yuki]stuff[/quote]
"i don't understand social situations and i can't interpret sentences well, so i'm going to be obnoxious instead of try and improve myself as a person."[/quote]
"I don't understand the inner-workings of a team I'm not a part of, yet I'm going to go ahead and talk on their behalf (sarcasm or not)".
Thank you for your contribution to shitting up the thread, and displaying your prime maturity. Woo, I can do sarcasm too.
FzeroMR_SLINhooky it just bothers me that CEVO doesn't guarantee us a LAN, and that's why i'm saying it's not worth the risk. TF2 doesn't die right away, but it does die the slow painful death of top teams leaving the game sooner than if there was a LAN to keep them there.
Again, stop making that argument without proof. Why would the game die if 10-12 people leave without a LAN. With 90% of people still playing
it doesn't die instantly!! it just dies in the same way that european or australian tf2 dies. the competition just dwindles and teams lose interest in the game and drop out. it won't be next season or maybe not even the one after that but teams lose that drive to play. like i said, i46 when europe was dying and lost that LAN is what invigorated that community to work hard and improve themselves for i49, another LAN. it's what keeps communities going, no matter how big or small.
also hooky yeah it's true but that's why i'm saying it's not guaranteed. it's possible but who knows. i guess we'll have to wait until tuesday.
[quote=Fzero][quote=MR_SLIN]hooky it just bothers me that CEVO doesn't guarantee us a LAN, and that's why i'm saying it's not worth the risk. TF2 doesn't die right away, but it does die the slow painful death of top teams leaving the game sooner than if there was a LAN to keep them there.[/quote]
Again, stop making that argument without proof. Why would the game die if 10-12 people leave without a LAN. With 90% of people still playing[/quote]
it doesn't die instantly!! it just dies in the same way that european or australian tf2 dies. the competition just dwindles and teams lose interest in the game and drop out. it won't be next season or maybe not even the one after that but teams lose that drive to play. like i said, i46 when europe was dying and lost that [b]LAN[/b] is what invigorated that community to work hard and improve themselves for i49, another [b]LAN[/b]. it's what keeps communities going, no matter how big or small.
also hooky yeah it's true but that's why i'm saying it's not guaranteed. it's possible but who knows. i guess we'll have to wait until tuesday.
MR_SLINTo quote Skyride: "if the top tier stop caring, its like a loose thread that quickly ripples down."
why is Skyride always quoted as if he is the prototype of EU opinion
[quote=MR_SLIN]To quote Skyride: [b]"if the top tier stop caring, its like a loose thread that quickly ripples down."[/b][/quote]
why is Skyride always quoted as if he is the prototype of EU opinion
To Mr_Slin and whoever else is all about LAN this and LAN that.
I have been around the TF community for longer than anyone else you can find. Not talking about TF2, I am talking about Quake and Quakeworld from 1996. I have been part of mostly every major league from MPlayer to QWTF to Quake 3 Fortress to Enemy Territory Fortress as a player and league organizer and I can tell you that the "community" does not live or die based off 4 teams going to a F'ing LAN.
If the players today can't find a reason to compete at the highest levels for nothing other than "going to LAN" then I am proud to say I played with the best TF players ever back in the days of QWTF. Back then we played for pride and for constantly getting better. The best prize we got was a full IRC channel.
You may not know me at all and that is fine. I'll stroke my own online genitals because back then I was the ego labeled "Invite" player for like 10 years straight. I have seen how this situation plays out over and over with every league and every TF community. The main thing keeping a competitive community alive is a stable and well organized league. It has NOTHING to do with offering a LAN. Nothing at all.
To Mr_Slin and whoever else is all about LAN this and LAN that.
I have been around the TF community for longer than anyone else you can find. Not talking about TF2, I am talking about Quake and Quakeworld from 1996. I have been part of mostly every major league from MPlayer to QWTF to Quake 3 Fortress to Enemy Territory Fortress as a player and league organizer and I can tell you that the "community" does not live or die based off 4 teams going to a F'ing LAN.
If the players today can't find a reason to compete at the highest levels for nothing other than "going to LAN" then I am proud to say I played with the best TF players ever back in the days of QWTF. Back then we played for pride and for constantly getting better. The best prize we got was a full IRC channel.
You may not know me at all and that is fine. I'll stroke my own online genitals because back then I was the ego labeled "Invite" player for like 10 years straight. I have seen how this situation plays out over and over with every league and every TF community. The main thing keeping a competitive community alive is a stable and well organized league. It has NOTHING to do with offering a LAN. Nothing at all.
fucking
jhust in case u guys were wondering what F'ing stood for
fucking
jhust in case u guys were wondering what F'ing stood for
spacecadet, do you remember a clan called MMZ from the QuakeWorld days? just curious...
spacecadet, do you remember a clan called MMZ from the QuakeWorld days? just curious...
Hold up Slin Oz TF2 isn't dead or dying! America has 86 teams (in Esea) to a country of over 300 million (plus Canada).
Australia: 50 teams (in OZF) to a country of 22 million or 27 if you include NZ. Pretty decent in terms of TF2 players per capita and consistent popularity. We've had around that number of teams for the last 2 years as well. There's enough interest to replenish the ranks of players leaving each season. While TF2 growth may have peaked in Australasia, it certainly isn't on the decline!
I would like to point out that Oz TF2 also does not have a LAN comparable to ESEA where the top teams battle it out and we're doing ok.
Hold up Slin Oz TF2 isn't dead or dying! America has 86 teams (in Esea) to a country of over 300 million (plus Canada).
Australia: 50 teams (in OZF) to a country of 22 million or 27 if you include NZ. Pretty decent in terms of TF2 players per capita and consistent popularity. We've had around that number of teams for the last 2 years as well. There's enough interest to replenish the ranks of players leaving each season. While TF2 growth may have peaked in Australasia, it certainly isn't on the decline!
I would like to point out that Oz TF2 also does not have a LAN comparable to ESEA where the top teams battle it out and we're doing ok.
Top 2 teams- which are a small minority- don't really matter bro except as the level to aspire to/beat. It's the 48 other teams who are actually playing that matter in terms of growth and game "life" if you will.
Top 2 teams- which are a small minority- don't really matter bro except as the level to aspire to/beat. It's the 48 other teams who are actually playing that matter in terms of growth and game "life" if you will.
Great, so we're going to end up like AU TF2 and I just found out there isn't any cheese in the fridge.
Great, so we're going to end up like AU TF2 and I just found out there isn't any cheese in the fridge.
A nice counter-argument is a beautiful thing Tom. Please try it- I am actually interested in why you think that I'm mistaken here.
Edit: Saw your edit. True I guess the top div or two hasn't seen much movement but isn't that the way for most competitive scenes? It's hard work to get to the top and a lot of teams don't make it. The 2/3 lowest divs have picked up new faces and teams though- that's where the action is.
A nice counter-argument is a beautiful thing Tom. Please try it- I am actually interested in why you think that I'm mistaken here.
Edit: Saw your edit. True I guess the top div or two hasn't seen much movement but isn't that the way for most competitive scenes? It's hard work to get to the top and a lot of teams don't make it. The 2/3 lowest divs have picked up new faces and teams though- that's where the action is.
SpaceCadeta very well said post
I'm just going off this but, when CAL and CPL died and Cevo dropped Day of Defeat 1.3 and Source, the community did not die. One league picked that game up - TPG. The DoD community is mad smaller than ours. It was the community that kept it alive and it was the community who made their own LAN. That is proof if you love a video game and have fun with it - it will never die. People should not blindly follow the inviters' but their hearts and it seems like our hearts are on TF2. :3
[quote=SpaceCadet]a very well said post[/quote]
I'm just going off this but, when CAL and CPL died and Cevo dropped Day of Defeat 1.3 and Source, the community did not die. One league picked that game up - TPG. The DoD community is mad smaller than ours. It was the community that kept it alive and it was the community who made their own LAN. That is proof if you love a video game and have fun with it - it will never die. People should not blindly follow the inviters' but their hearts and it seems like our hearts are on TF2. :3
I just want to play video games.
I just want to play video games.
TommunistRangiA nice counter-argument is a beautiful thing Tom. Please try it- I am actually interested in why you think that I'm mistaken here.
rofl
"Hold up Slin Oz TF2 isn't dead or dying!"
i think a fairly stagnent top level and the stuff presented in my last post are not conducive to a alive and improving scene.
"I would like to point out that Oz TF2 also does not have a LAN comparable to ESEA where the top teams battle it out and we're doing ok."
hrmmmm
Fair point- I did say we're doing ok and not great though. While I don't think there's much growth I don't think Oz TF2 is dying- of at least I hope not. At the moment things aren't really moving one way or another. I guess time will tell over the next year or so.
[quote=Tommunist][quote=Rangi]A nice counter-argument is a beautiful thing Tom. Please try it- I am actually interested in why you think that I'm mistaken here.[/quote]
rofl
"Hold up Slin Oz TF2 isn't dead or dying!"
i think a fairly stagnent top level and the stuff presented in my last post are not conducive to a alive and improving scene.
"I would like to point out that Oz TF2 also does not have a LAN comparable to ESEA where the top teams battle it out and we're doing ok."
hrmmmm[/quote]
Fair point- I did say we're doing ok and not great though. While I don't think there's much growth I don't think Oz TF2 is dying- of at least I hope not. At the moment things aren't really moving one way or another. I guess time will tell over the next year or so.
Tommunistedit: saw your edit in response to my edit.
i can't deny you that theres a lot of new faces in the lower divs.
Hopefully they'll stick around and work their way up in the next year or so. Fresh meat.
[quote=Tommunist]edit: saw your edit in response to my edit.
i can't deny you that theres a lot of new faces in the lower divs.[/quote]
Hopefully they'll stick around and work their way up in the next year or so. Fresh meat.
eXtinespacecadet, do you remember a clan called MMZ from the QuakeWorld days? just curious...
I do. I'm another old timer from mplayer/QWTF.
[quote=eXtine]spacecadet, do you remember a clan called MMZ from the QuakeWorld days? just curious...[/quote]
I do. I'm another old timer from mplayer/QWTF.
Im thinking a lot of open players payed up knowing they would only be supplying the prize pots for other players. Knowing that as a low-mid open team $35 per player is only getting you an extra match per week, a (bad)client, and better weapon restrictions over what UGC has to offer. is that really worth it? I dont think so. I only played ESEA over UGC this season because im always busy on wednesday nights so ESEA was the only option for 6v6
Im thinking a lot of open players payed up knowing they would only be supplying the prize pots for other players. Knowing that as a low-mid open team $35 per player is only getting you an extra match per week, a (bad)client, and better weapon restrictions over what UGC has to offer. is that really worth it? I dont think so. I only played ESEA over UGC this season because im always busy on wednesday nights so ESEA was the only option for 6v6
TommunistRangiTop 2 teams- which are a small minority- don't really matter bro except as the level to aspire to/beat. It's the 48 other teams who are actually playing.
lol
edit: i honestly don't think people care that much dude, there's next to zero upward momentum, div 2 has been the same faces for fucking ever, it was fucking impossible to find pick ups or replace players mid season in my horrible run through prem/div 1 this season.
ay the run wasn't that bad, but yeah there's few players in aus atm that really want to improve and have the drive to get better within division 1. I personally don't think that's solely due to iM; you can't blame a team for discouraging others to improve by being the best when they were the ones who actually worked on being the best.
[quote=Tommunist][quote=Rangi]Top 2 teams- which are a small minority- don't really matter bro except as the level to aspire to/beat. It's the 48 other teams who are actually playing.[/quote]
lol
edit: i honestly don't think people care that much dude, there's next to zero upward momentum, div 2 has been the same faces for fucking ever, it was fucking impossible to find pick ups or replace players mid season in my horrible run through prem/div 1 this season.[/quote]
ay the run wasn't that bad, but yeah there's few players in aus atm that really want to improve and have the drive to get better within division 1. I personally don't think that's solely due to iM; you can't blame a team for discouraging others to improve by being the best when they were the ones who actually worked on being the best.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gur8ccqrQ9c[/youtube]
is it beginning
no lan = games dead
pce
ps i didnt read anything in this thread
no lan = games dead
pce
ps i didnt read anything in this thread
ETF2L doesn't provide its own LAN, doesn't have a league fee and doesn't have an anti-cheat client. Yet the i49 finals were an all EU affair and in S16 (the most recent) around 300 teams signed up. Aus/NZ were also able to send a team to i49 that could compete with the best NA had to offer yet they have a similar league situation to EU and around 10% of the population.
A lot of the people in this thread are talking about non-NA TF2 as if its dead/insignificant (and so is something to be avoided) which seems to me very unfair considering its recent success and the fact that it's pretty popular.
ETF2L doesn't provide its own LAN, doesn't have a league fee and doesn't have an anti-cheat client. Yet the i49 finals were an all EU affair and in S16 (the most recent) around 300 teams signed up. Aus/NZ were also able to send a team to i49 that could compete with the best NA had to offer yet they have a similar league situation to EU and around 10% of the population.
A lot of the people in this thread are talking about non-NA TF2 as if its dead/insignificant (and so is something to be avoided) which seems to me very unfair considering its recent success and the fact that it's pretty popular.
EmilioEstevezETF2L doesn't provide its own LAN, doesn't have a league fee and doesn't have an anti-cheat client. Yet the i49 finals were an all EU affair and in S16 (the most recent) around 300 teams signed up. Aus/NZ were also able to send a team that could compete with the best NA had to offer yet they have a similar league situation to EU and around 10% of the population.
A lot of the people in this thread are talking about non-NA TF2 as if its dead/insignificant which seems to me very unfair considering its recent success and the fact that it's pretty popular.
I mean i'm pretty sure all the massive i-series lans are considered the "unofficial" ETF2L LAN where you would see a similiar showing of prem players to ESEA lan invite players
Most of the European countries are much closer to each other relative to the distance most NA tf2 players experience- its common for there to be east coast players like myself in NY and west coast in cali, that is ~3000 miles, so ease of access to a LAN that is existing already as a replacement to the ESEA lan is quite absurd.
I think I have some room to talk regarding NA LANs as I have participated in almost all of them.. except the LANS in seattle/atlanta/calgary canada
We have
LAN ETS- In montreal canada, not only is it extremely northeast but its considered international travel for all US players- this makes flying expensive and problems arise with passports/etc. The spot itself is awesome, but there was no official tf2 tourney the past 2 years with a show of over 30+ tf2 players.
LAN GXL- In new jersey, it's a BYOC (bring your own computer) so that brings multiple problems with transportation and for anyone west of chicago, if your not flying, its a 12+ hour drive, probably even more. I personally know the owner, and the last GXL i attended in october did not bring in a large amount of players- im pretty sure they arent doing as well as they would hope and the future may look grim. considering the lan that sort of "flopped" was the "resurrection" lan lol.
LAN norcal- in sacramento, cali it's a BYOC once again, its an extreme as far as distances. Anyone of the east coast or midwest will have to shell out for airfare, or suck it up and head for a 20hr+ road trip. Its a decent lan but when i attended it was around 25~30 people who attended, maybe less.
LAN Pittco- not even sure if its alive this year but once again it has the same problem as GXL, its on the east coast and im pretty sure its winding down.. which is unfortunate
theres a atlanta/seattle/calgary LAN but these are also extreme locations atlanta, george being southeast, seattle being northwest, and calgary being stupid and ugly (haha fuck u trekkie)
as you can see, there is no current reasonably located lan for the majority of the invite players/spectators to attend without shelling out da cash for a big plane ticket.. with their own pc.. which is extremely suseptible to breaking in transit- i know because I broke hardware on the plane once.
and the idea of the tf2 community hosting their own lan is a joke, sorry
I've talked to torbull when i was working with him about the expenses of a lan. Just the internet to run the dallas ESEA lan, was thousands - then you have another couple thousand for hardware/monitors/power. And unless your hosting the lan at some guys house, your going to have to pay for space + hotel.
idk man its sad for me to say this but NA will never have a GIANT i-series LAN where everyone can come together and play and pay/travel a REASONABLE amount. Running and hosting lan's isnt profitable and thats why there has been a decreasing amount of them.
assuming that the tf2 community isnt using ESEA.. i can safely say there will be no LAN,
*WARNING my opinion*
in my eyes no lan = death of high level play
theres no incentive to play, and people can't chill with their homies at lan (visitor 2012)
*WARNING my opinion*
[quote=EmilioEstevez]ETF2L doesn't provide its own LAN, doesn't have a league fee and doesn't have an anti-cheat client. Yet the i49 finals were an all EU affair and in S16 (the most recent) around 300 teams signed up. Aus/NZ were also able to send a team that could compete with the best NA had to offer yet they have a similar league situation to EU and around 10% of the population.
A lot of the people in this thread are talking about non-NA TF2 as if its dead/insignificant which seems to me very unfair considering its recent success and the fact that it's pretty popular.[/quote]
I mean i'm pretty sure all the massive i-series lans are considered the "unofficial" ETF2L LAN where you would see a similiar showing of prem players to ESEA lan invite players
Most of the European countries are much closer to each other relative to the distance most NA tf2 players experience- its common for there to be east coast players like myself in NY and west coast in cali, that is ~3000 miles, so ease of access to a [b]LAN that is existing already[/b] as a replacement to the ESEA lan is quite absurd.
I think I have some room to talk regarding NA LANs as I have participated in almost all of them.. except the LANS in seattle/atlanta/calgary canada
We have
LAN ETS- In montreal canada, not only is it extremely northeast but its considered international travel for all US players- this makes flying expensive and problems arise with passports/etc. The spot itself is awesome, but there was no official tf2 tourney the past 2 years with a show of over 30+ tf2 players.
LAN GXL- In new jersey, it's a BYOC (bring your own computer) so that brings multiple problems with transportation and for anyone west of chicago, if your not flying, its a 12+ hour drive, probably even more. I personally know the owner, and the last GXL i attended in october did not bring in a large amount of players- im pretty sure they arent doing as well as they would hope and the future may look grim. considering the lan that sort of "flopped" was the "resurrection" lan lol.
LAN norcal- in sacramento, cali it's a BYOC once again, its an extreme as far as distances. Anyone of the east coast or midwest will have to shell out for airfare, or suck it up and head for a 20hr+ road trip. Its a decent lan but when i attended it was around 25~30 people who attended, maybe less.
LAN Pittco- not even sure if its alive this year but once again it has the same problem as GXL, its on the east coast and im pretty sure its winding down.. which is unfortunate
theres a atlanta/seattle/calgary LAN but these are also extreme locations atlanta, george being southeast, seattle being northwest, and calgary being stupid and ugly (haha fuck u trekkie)
as you can see, there is no current reasonably located lan for the majority of the invite players/spectators to attend without shelling out da cash for a big plane ticket.. with their own pc.. which is extremely suseptible to breaking in transit- i know because I broke hardware on the plane once.
and the idea of the tf2 community hosting their own lan is a joke, sorry
I've talked to torbull when i was working with him about the expenses of a lan. Just the internet to run the dallas ESEA lan, was thousands - then you have another couple thousand for hardware/monitors/power. And unless your hosting the lan at some guys house, your going to have to pay for space + hotel.
idk man its sad for me to say this but NA will never have a GIANT i-series LAN where everyone can come together and play and pay/travel a REASONABLE amount. Running and hosting lan's isnt profitable and thats why there has been a decreasing amount of them.
assuming that the tf2 community isnt using ESEA.. i can safely say there will be no LAN,
*WARNING my opinion*
in my eyes no lan = death of high level play
theres no incentive to play, and people can't chill with their homies at lan (visitor 2012)
*WARNING my opinion*
RickMost of the European countries are much closer to each other relative to the distance most NA tf2 players experience- its common for there to be east coast players like myself in NY and west coast in cali, that is ~3000 miles, so ease of access to a LAN that is existing already as a replacement to the ESEA lan is quite absurd.
The distance between Lisbon and Moscow is 2500miles so we have some of the same troubles in EU but we manage them. All I'm really trying to say is that not having league fees, a sponsored LAN or an anti-cheat client doesn't mean you can't have a successful, popular and competitive scene.
[quote=Rick]
Most of the European countries are much closer to each other relative to the distance most NA tf2 players experience- its common for there to be east coast players like myself in NY and west coast in cali, that is ~3000 miles, so ease of access to a [b]LAN that is existing already[/b] as a replacement to the ESEA lan is quite absurd.[/quote]
The distance between Lisbon and Moscow is 2500miles so we have some of the same troubles in EU but we manage them. All I'm really trying to say is that not having league fees, a sponsored LAN or an anti-cheat client doesn't mean you can't have a successful, popular and competitive scene.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/22/shark-chokes-on-moose-rescued-by-canadians_n_4319851.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular
All I'm really trying to say is that not having league fees, a sponsored LAN or an anti-cheat client doesn't mean you can't have a successful, popular and competitive scene.
uhhhhhhhhhhhh what planet are we on
[quote] All I'm really trying to say is that not having league fees, a sponsored LAN or an anti-cheat client doesn't mean you can't have a successful, popular and competitive scene.[/quote]
uhhhhhhhhhhhh what planet are we on
Take a look at #227-237 where the aussies are talking about top level AU TF2. That's how games die. It's like Quake. New players have to put in a lot of time to beat established players and there isn't really an incentive to do so. That's when the game starts dying.
You can play the game at a lower level because the game itself is fun but when it comes to taking down the upper level teams it suddenly becomes "not worth the effort".
EmilioEstevezA lot of the people in this thread are talking about non-NA TF2 as if its dead/insignificant (and so is something to be avoided) which seems to me very unfair considering its recent success and the fact that it's pretty popular.
DUE TO THE LANS
point proven
/thread
Take a look at #227-237 where the aussies are talking about top level AU TF2. That's how games die. It's like Quake. New players have to put in a lot of time to beat established players and there isn't really an incentive to do so. That's when the game starts dying.
You can play the game at a lower level because the game itself is fun but when it comes to taking down the upper level teams it suddenly becomes "not worth the effort".
[quote=EmilioEstevez]
A lot of the people in this thread are talking about non-NA TF2 as if its dead/insignificant (and so is something to be avoided) which seems to me very unfair considering its recent success and the fact that it's pretty popular.[/quote]
DUE TO THE LANS
point proven
/thread