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Do we need badlands_pro?
1
#1
0 Frags +

While ETF2L Season 24 map pool is being discussed, some people state that badlands should be out. Although I don't agree with them, but there's a couple of things about this map that doesn't appeal to me personally (like the time it takes to cap last).
Do you think badlands has any significant flaws that should be fixed to improve the gameplay and make the map more appealing to all players? I know there was some version of badlands_pro back in the days, but it's not been played much.

While ETF2L Season 24 map pool is being discussed, some people state that badlands should be out. Although I don't agree with them, but there's a couple of things about this map that doesn't appeal to me personally (like the time it takes to cap last).
Do you think badlands has any significant flaws that should be fixed to improve the gameplay and make the map more appealing to all players? I know there was some version of badlands_pro back in the days, but it's not been played much.
2
#2
22 Frags +

no

because I don't like when people apply that 'product' color scheme to every map and the changes made in previous pro versions were really insignificant
I got some problems with that too but I don't think we gotta redo every single map to be completely flawless, some things like granary's claustrophobic tendencies are good to cut out but I just don't see any serious issues with badlands other than it's the most famous and old map in rotation therefore at some point people are just getting sick of it

no

because I don't like when people apply that 'product' color scheme to every map and the changes made in previous pro versions were really insignificant
I got some problems with that too but I don't think we gotta redo every single map to be completely flawless, some things like granary's claustrophobic tendencies are good to cut out but I just don't see any serious issues with badlands other than it's the most famous and old map in rotation therefore at some point people are just getting sick of it
3
#3
8 Frags +

wouldn't get the crazy cozen surf cap if last didn't cap quickly

EDIT: For reference: https://youtu.be/u3rd8eDDeWs?t=30s

wouldn't get the crazy cozen surf cap if last didn't cap quickly

EDIT: For reference: https://youtu.be/u3rd8eDDeWs?t=30s
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#4
1 Frags +
wruno

because I don't like when people apply that 'product' color scheme to every map and the changes made in previous pro versions were really insignificant
I got some problems with that too but I don't think we gotta redo every single map to be completely flawless, some things like granary's claustrophobic tendencies are good to cut out but I just don't see any serious issues with badlands other than it's the most famous and old map in rotation therefore at some point people are just getting sick of it

If the previous _pro version didn't have any significant changes, doesn't mean a new one would be pointless.

vibhavpwouldn't get the crazy ninjanick surf cap if last didn't cap quickly

If there was enough cap time for him to literally touch the point to cap, it wouldn't matter at all.

[quote=wru]no

because I don't like when people apply that 'product' color scheme to every map and the changes made in previous pro versions were really insignificant
I got some problems with that too but I don't think we gotta redo every single map to be completely flawless, some things like granary's claustrophobic tendencies are good to cut out but I just don't see any serious issues with badlands other than it's the most famous and old map in rotation therefore at some point people are just getting sick of it[/quote]
If the previous _pro version didn't have any significant changes, doesn't mean a new one would be pointless.

[quote=vibhavp]wouldn't get the crazy ninjanick surf cap if last didn't cap quickly[/quote]
If there was enough cap time for him to literally touch the point to cap, it wouldn't matter at all.
5
#5
19 Frags +
wruI don't like when people apply that 'product' color scheme to every map.

1) Viaduct was changed from the white snow to the green grass theme for good and popular reasons.
2) I don't think anyone has complained about badland's orange desert theme and a pro version needn't (and likely wouldn't) bother changing that theme.

wruThe changes made in previous pro versions were really insignificant.

Nothing to do with what future improvement attempts would involve.

wruI got some problems with that too but I don't think we gotta redo every single map to be completely flawless.

Someone one ETF2L put it better than I might.

ondkajaCompetitive maps should strive towards gameplay perfection.
[quote=wru]I don't like when people apply that 'product' color scheme to every map.[/quote]

1) Viaduct was changed from the white snow to the green grass theme for good and popular reasons.
2) I don't think anyone has complained about badland's orange desert theme and a pro version needn't (and likely wouldn't) bother changing that theme.

[quote=wru]The changes made in previous pro versions were really insignificant.[/quote]

Nothing to do with what future improvement attempts would involve.

[quote=wru]I got some problems with that too but I don't think we gotta redo every single map to be completely flawless.[/quote]

Someone one ETF2L put it better than I might.

[quote=ondkaja][url=http://etf2l.org/forum/maps/topic-32541/page-2/#post-551357]Competitive maps should strive towards gameplay perfection.[/url][/quote]
6
#6
6 Frags +

I really don't think there are any problems with the map. I'd honestly rather see an updated gullywash first.
Probably one of the best ones in the rotation. Tends not to end up in big stalemates- last point capping fast is an interesting mechanic and something you can deal with if you push out correctly with your team or leave a player on last. The only significant things that really affect anything are really small, like some weird clipping/splash stuff on spire and traintracks, and some railings.
It would be really nice to have a bigger mappool of good maps so that we could rotate stuff like badlands out and play almost completely different sets of maps each season- but any new maps we get tend to have stalemate issues and are never liked as much as gully, blands or process.

I really don't think there are any problems with the map. I'd honestly rather see an updated gullywash first.
Probably one of the best ones in the rotation. Tends not to end up in big stalemates- last point capping fast is an interesting mechanic and something you can deal with if you push out correctly with your team or leave a player on last. The only significant things that really affect anything are really small, like some weird clipping/splash stuff on spire and traintracks, and some railings.
It would be really nice to have a bigger mappool of good maps so that we could rotate stuff like badlands out and play almost completely different sets of maps each season- but any new maps we get tend to have stalemate issues and are never liked as much as gully, blands or process.
7
#7
2 Frags +

paging/summoning papaschmurf

paging/summoning papaschmurf
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#8
0 Frags +

Honestly I think that unless there are major clipping things that need to be reworked on regular badlands, there isn't much of anything that needs to be changed. Although I do wish that a slight tweak to the last cap time would be looked into because having a demo destroy your stickies with the quickiebomb launcher while a scout scrambles to cap the point is quite absurd. But even then a potential case can be made about the quickiebomb launcher being overpowered, but that's for a later thread.

Honestly I think that unless there are major clipping things that need to be reworked on regular badlands, there isn't much of anything that needs to be changed. Although I do wish that a slight tweak to the last cap time would be looked into because having a demo destroy your stickies with the quickiebomb launcher while a scout scrambles to cap the point is quite absurd. But even then a potential case can be made about the quickiebomb launcher being overpowered, but that's for a later thread.
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#9
5 Frags +
SmytherSomeone one ETF2L put it better than I might.

ondkaja is 100% right but hes talking about small bugs and stuff like clipping and map bugs, what I mean is you need to have major things to fix if you think towards _pro version, with product they mirrored the whole map and added the tunnel through left, with granary they remade mid and fixed lighting, but are there real flaws with badlands that need to be fixed? I would love to see them if so

what would be better is fixing the current version like with snakewater, involving the original creator or basically valve to fix the map in a way that we want

[quote=Smyther]
Someone one ETF2L put it better than I might.
[/quote]

ondkaja is 100% right but hes talking about small bugs and stuff like clipping and map bugs, what I mean is you need to have major things to fix if you think towards _pro version, with product they mirrored the whole map and added the tunnel through left, with granary they remade mid and fixed lighting, but are there [b]real [/b] flaws with badlands that need to be fixed? I would love to see them if so

what would be better is fixing the current version like with snakewater, involving the original creator or basically valve to fix the map in a way that we want
10
#10
8 Frags +

i've made this, its keeps the original badlands colours and only gets rid of things that shouldn't be there in the first place
http://www.teamfortress.tv/31988/cp-badlands-pro/?page=2#59

i've made this, its keeps the original badlands colours and only gets rid of things that shouldn't be there in the first place
http://www.teamfortress.tv/31988/cp-badlands-pro/?page=2#59
11
#11
1 Frags +
wruare there some real flaws with badlands that needs to be fixed? I would love to see them if so

Do you consider the difficulty defending teams have pushing out of last, and the ability for the assailing team to park the bus with a heavy and sentry at spire a flaw? Or is it something players are able to learn/figure out how to overcome, and last stalemates are simply a feature of the map?

[quote=wru]are there some [b]real [/b] flaws with badlands that needs to be fixed? I would love to see them if so[/quote]

Do you consider the difficulty defending teams have pushing out of last, and the ability for the assailing team to park the bus with a heavy and sentry at spire a flaw? Or is it something players are able to learn/figure out how to overcome, and last stalemates are simply a feature of the map?
12
#12
0 Frags +
SmytherDo you consider the difficulty defending teams have pushing out of last, and the ability for the assailing team to park the bus with a heavy and sentry at spire a flaw?

while I would agree with difficulties in regards of pushing out of lasts (although I think fixing last points would be a thing to consider for every single map because there's simply no good and 'convenient' lasts, maybe that's intentional who knows), not only Ive never seen a sentry at spire + heavy hold but I also think that's not a problem of a map rather than a stupid people, I feel like you can park a bus anywhere with heavy+sentry, not specifically on badlands where it's the biggest problem

[quote=Smyther]
Do you consider the difficulty defending teams have pushing out of last, and the ability for the assailing team to park the bus with a heavy and sentry at spire a flaw?[/quote]

while I would agree with difficulties in regards of pushing out of lasts (although I think fixing last points would be a thing to consider for every single map because there's simply no good and 'convenient' lasts, maybe that's intentional who knows), not only Ive never seen a sentry at spire + heavy hold but I also think that's not a problem of a map rather than a stupid people, I feel like you can park a bus anywhere with heavy+sentry, not specifically on badlands where it's the biggest problem
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#13
2 Frags +

They just need to patch up the cracks at mid and on spire and be done, dont apply the product color to everything, try to leave it as badlands and just fix the cracks and stuff.

They just need to patch up the cracks at mid and on spire and be done, dont apply the product color to everything, try to leave it as badlands and just fix the cracks and stuff.
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#14
7 Frags +

I don't think we should have pro maps just to remove every flaw, as the more pro maps we have, the less "pub maps" we have in the rotation that every pubbers knows from his casual playing.

Instead of trying to fix every map ourselves we should somehow convince Valve to update the original maps to the standard competetive needs/wants them

I don't think we should have pro maps just to remove every flaw, as the more pro maps we have, the less "pub maps" we have in the rotation that every pubbers knows from his casual playing.

Instead of trying to fix every map ourselves we should somehow convince Valve to update the original maps to the standard competetive needs/wants them
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#15
-3 Frags +
Raptor00XI don't think we should have pro maps just to remove every flaw, as the more pro maps we have, the less "pub maps" we have in the rotation that every pubbers knows from his casual playing.

That argument has always been nonsense. compTF2 should use the best maps for compTF2 and pubs should use the best maps for pubs. There need not be any crossover. There is very little you'll learn about badlands, viaduct or granary on a pub will be useful for comp.

[quote=Raptor00X]I don't think we should have pro maps just to remove every flaw, as the more pro maps we have, the less "pub maps" we have in the rotation that every pubbers knows from his casual playing.
[/quote]
That argument has always been nonsense. compTF2 should use the best maps for compTF2 and pubs should use the best maps for pubs. There need not be any crossover. There is very little you'll learn about badlands, viaduct or granary on a pub will be useful for comp.
16
#16
11 Frags +
Raptor00XInstead of trying to fix every map ourselves we should somehow convince Valve to update the original maps to the standard competetive needs/wants them

That is the point of _pro maps.

[quote=Raptor00X]Instead of trying to fix every map ourselves we should somehow convince Valve to update the original maps to the standard competetive needs/wants them[/quote]
That [i]is[/i] the point of _pro maps.
17
#17
Process/Gullywash Refresh
5 Frags +

I think this discussion would be more insightful if we had some statistics to analyse.

These are some examples of statistics that would be interesting:
- How often do the team that wipes the opponents on middle win the round within 3 minutes? How does this compare to the average, median, and mode of all other competitive 5cp maps?
- How frequently do full uber advantage pushes lead to a last point capture? Compare to other maps...
- What percentage of uber vs uber last defences do not result in the last point getting captured? Other maps...
- How does these things differ in different levels of play? Prem/Invite, High-mid/IM, Open, lobbies/pugs...
(Also for different rulesets. Off topic, but we need a universal tf2 ruleset.)

Of course these are the kinds of things we have a general sense of, but some cold hard facts and a logical analysis of them could lead to better conclusions, and better suggestions to either valve or creators of pro-maps.

I'm not sure if anyone has statistics like these, but a lot of it should be achievable through logs ?

I think this discussion would be more insightful if we had some statistics to analyse.

These are some examples of statistics that would be interesting:
- How often do the team that wipes the opponents on middle win the round within 3 minutes? How does this compare to the average, median, and mode of all other competitive 5cp maps?
- How frequently do full uber advantage pushes lead to a last point capture? Compare to other maps...
- What percentage of uber vs uber last defences do not result in the last point getting captured? Other maps...
- How does these things differ in different levels of play? Prem/Invite, High-mid/IM, Open, lobbies/pugs...
(Also for different rulesets. Off topic, but we need a universal tf2 ruleset.)


Of course these are the kinds of things we have a general sense of, but some cold hard facts and a logical analysis of them could lead to better conclusions, and better suggestions to either valve or creators of pro-maps.

I'm not sure if anyone has statistics like these, but a lot of it should be achievable through logs ?
18
#18
0 Frags +
Raptor00XI don't think we should have pro maps just to remove every flaw, as the more pro maps we have, the less "pub maps" we have in the rotation that every pubbers knows from his casual playing.

Instead of trying to fix every map ourselves we should somehow convince Valve to update the original maps to the standard competitive needs/wants them

I agree with the first point, I personally think that with the introduction of matchmaking and our efforts to get more people into the competitive scene, we don't want to end up with all different versions of maps that someone coming from a pub has no clue how to play. If all we played was Pro Viaduct, Sunshine, Reckoner and some other imaginary new maps, a pubber who wants to transition to competitive might be turned off by the fact that it's completely out of their comfort zone.

About the second point I'm not sure if Valve would have all of it's maps currently in our rotations cater to 6v6.

[quote=Raptor00X]I don't think we should have pro maps just to remove every flaw, as the more pro maps we have, the less "pub maps" we have in the rotation that every pubbers knows from his casual playing.

Instead of trying to fix every map ourselves we should somehow convince Valve to update the original maps to the standard competitive needs/wants them[/quote]

I agree with the first point, I personally think that with the introduction of matchmaking and our efforts to get more people into the competitive scene, we don't want to end up with all different versions of maps that someone coming from a pub has no clue how to play. If all we played was Pro Viaduct, Sunshine, Reckoner and some other imaginary new maps, a pubber who wants to transition to competitive might be turned off by the fact that it's completely out of their comfort zone.

About the second point I'm not sure if Valve would have all of it's maps currently in our rotations cater to 6v6.
19
#19
1 Frags +
gatsanRaptor00XI don't think we should have pro maps just to remove every flaw, as the more pro maps we have, the less "pub maps" we have in the rotation that every pubbers knows from his casual playing.

Instead of trying to fix every map ourselves we should somehow convince Valve to update the original maps to the standard competitive needs/wants them

I agree with the first point, I personally think that with the introduction of matchmaking and our efforts to get more people into the competitive scene, we don't want to end up with all different versions of maps that someone coming from a pub has no clue how to play. If all we played was Pro Viaduct, Sunshine, Reckoner and some other imaginary new maps, a pubber who wants to transition to competitive might be turned off by the fact that it's completely out of their comfort zone.

No pubber is going to be in their comfort zone for their first few 6s. Stock maps won't change that.

[quote=gatsan][quote=Raptor00X]I don't think we should have pro maps just to remove every flaw, as the more pro maps we have, the less "pub maps" we have in the rotation that every pubbers knows from his casual playing.

Instead of trying to fix every map ourselves we should somehow convince Valve to update the original maps to the standard competitive needs/wants them[/quote]

I agree with the first point, I personally think that with the introduction of matchmaking and our efforts to get more people into the competitive scene, we don't want to end up with all different versions of maps that someone coming from a pub has no clue how to play. If all we played was Pro Viaduct, Sunshine, Reckoner and some other imaginary new maps, a pubber who wants to transition to competitive might be turned off by the fact that it's completely out of their comfort zone.[/quote]
No pubber is going to be in their comfort zone for their first few 6s. Stock maps won't change that.
20
#20
1 Frags +
gatsanIf all we played was Pro Viaduct, Sunshine, Reckoner and some other imaginary new maps, a pubber who wants to transition to competitive might be turned off by the fact that it's completely out of their comfort zone..

Most of the maps currently in rotation started as customs. In fact last season the only map in esea that wasn't a custom/pro version was badlands

[quote=gatsan]If all we played was Pro Viaduct, Sunshine, Reckoner and some other imaginary new maps, a pubber who wants to transition to competitive might be turned off by the fact that it's completely out of their comfort zone..[/quote]

Most of the maps currently in rotation started as customs. In fact last season the only map in esea that wasn't a custom/pro version was badlands
21
#21
-1 Frags +

For me its just classic... Its one of map you have to work with team pretty well to ho huge there.. I dont Luke this map personally but i just want to have it in map rotation..
Maybe one change.. Last cap . just 2fast, should be like 1 sec more atleast

For me its just classic... Its one of map you have to work with team pretty well to ho huge there.. I dont Luke this map personally but i just want to have it in map rotation..
Maybe one change.. Last cap . just 2fast, should be like 1 sec more atleast
22
#22
8 Frags +

Badlands is THE iconic map of 6v6 TF2, so besides any possible FPS improvements and bug fixes I don't foresee a "Pro" version being needed anytime soon unless Valve mandates the Process art style for competitive, which would be a tragedy in and of itself.

Badlands is THE iconic map of 6v6 TF2, so besides any possible FPS improvements and bug fixes I don't foresee a "Pro" version being needed anytime soon unless Valve mandates the Process art style for competitive, which would be a tragedy in and of itself.
23
#23
6 Frags +

It's one of the few maps compared to most in my opinion, to be fast and sometimes back/forth. Granted you can have stalemates in the map, but generally speaking it's one of the few maps that is enjoyable to watch along with viaduct.

It's one of the few maps compared to most in my opinion, to be fast and sometimes back/forth. Granted you can have stalemates in the map, but generally speaking it's one of the few maps that is enjoyable to watch along with viaduct.
24
#24
8 Frags +

Nobody ever said that pro = grassy theme.
That aside, I think it is up to Valve to fix this map since it is the most iconic map for 6v6, yet it is the most badly clipped and badly mirrored map in the map pool.
(Also last point cap time being 1s and 0.5s for scouts is retarded imo)

Nobody ever said that pro = grassy theme.
That aside, I think it is up to Valve to fix this map since it is the most iconic map for 6v6, yet it is the most badly clipped and badly mirrored map in the map pool.
(Also last point cap time being 1s and 0.5s for scouts is retarded imo)
25
#25
1 Frags +
jnki_aka_tungstenpaging/summoning papaschmurf

its not King's Row

[quote=jnki_aka_tungsten]paging/summoning papaschmurf[/quote]

its not King's Row
26
#26
6 Frags +

Why do we try to fix things that arent broken? Can we focus on like sunshine and granary or something actually productive?

Why do we try to fix things that arent broken? Can we focus on like sunshine and granary or something actually productive?
27
#27
0 Frags +
LKincheloeBadlands is THE iconic map of 6v6 TF2, so besides any possible FPS improvements and bug fixes I don't foresee a "Pro" version being needed anytime soon unless Valve mandates the Process art style for competitive, which would be a tragedy in and of itself.

god please no
i hate white maps, especially when i want to use a white crosshair

[quote=LKincheloe]Badlands is THE iconic map of 6v6 TF2, so besides any possible FPS improvements and bug fixes I don't foresee a "Pro" version being needed anytime soon unless Valve mandates the Process art style for competitive, which would be a tragedy in and of itself.[/quote]

god please no
i hate white maps, especially when i want to use a white crosshair
28
#28
-3 Frags +

Unbalanced map in every point, never understood why so many people like it

Unbalanced map in every point, never understood why so many people like it
29
#29
3 Frags +
wruno

because I don't like when people apply that 'product' color scheme to every map

I've been told that the product color scheme is only popular because of how snow textures drain fps in source.
Personally I agree that it's nice to not have every map look the same

[quote=wru]no

because I don't like when people apply that 'product' color scheme to every map [/quote]

I've been told that the product color scheme is only popular because of how snow textures drain fps in source.
Personally I agree that it's nice to not have every map look the same
30
#30
1 Frags +

I think a lot of little objects could be changed in the maps. There are a bunch of edges or steps that you can clip on for no reason. 2 notable examples are the random little pipe you can catch your head on, located on the side of shithouse and a protruding step at choke that you can clip on (sucks for roamers jumping). Also wtf is up with the ceiling at last? Imo you shouldn't be able to jump into the vents IN the ceiling of last.

I think a lot of little objects could be changed in the maps. There are a bunch of edges or steps that you can clip on for no reason. 2 notable examples are the random little pipe you can catch your head on, located on the side of shithouse and a protruding step at choke that you can clip on (sucks for roamers jumping). Also wtf is up with the ceiling at last? Imo you shouldn't be able to jump into the vents IN the ceiling of last.
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