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cp_logjam (5CP)
481
#481
5 Frags +

My team played the map a bunch this season, picking it twice in playoffs, i'll try and give some valuable feedback.

I enjoyed the map, admittedly at first I was quite frustrated playing it with little to no resource available to actually learn how to approach mid/pushes etc but once I got an understanding on how to play I found it very fun but there were a couple of issues I found that could be fixed to help game flow.

1: The mid is too harsh for soldiers
I played scout so this isn't something I was personally affected by but this mid is hell for soldiers, if i sit on hut I can see every angle a soldier might try to bomb from (this isn't an exaggeration) this combined with the distance soldier's have to cover with their jumps makes it probably the easiest scout mid in the current rotation. As of right now if you can keep their demo from spamming you off roof there is almost no reason to leave hut as scout, it's actually an almost flawless position.

2: Second stalemate is incredibly hard to break
Pushing into second from mid if the other team knows what they are doing and want to park the bus is a herculean task, If you play your combo up on the spire and have your flank watch bottom right there is so little viable counter play the only thing we could get to work was sacking for sniper and hoping to god their flank showed their heads. The height ad offered by the point over choke and the left flank locks out any hope of soldier aggression ever getting anything done. If you keep a scout on spire to defend the med, the right flank can be quite effortlessly locked off by a roamer/scout staying back and baiting the pack. In the newer version it seems the left flank has been opened up a bit more so maybe this won't be as much an issue ? hopefully.

3: This may be fixed in later versions but the last cap breaks on huds for some reason? at about the halfway point of the cap it freezes and you cannot tell how close the cap is to being finished. This actually lost us a round in a scrim because I let someone stand on point thinking it was only half capped and the round instantly ended.

Lastly i think the boxes on last fit a lot better than the concrete slab on last, I don't think sniper is a massive issue on last or anything and considering it is quite hard to get a roamer force because of how much room there is to press s I think the slab being so big is unnecessary.

My team played the map a bunch this season, picking it twice in playoffs, i'll try and give some valuable feedback.

I enjoyed the map, admittedly at first I was quite frustrated playing it with little to no resource available to actually learn how to approach mid/pushes etc but once I got an understanding on how to play I found it very fun but there were a couple of issues I found that could be fixed to help game flow.

1: The mid is too harsh for soldiers
I played scout so this isn't something I was personally affected by but this mid is hell for soldiers, if i sit on hut I can see every angle a soldier might try to bomb from (this isn't an exaggeration) this combined with the distance soldier's have to cover with their jumps makes it probably the easiest scout mid in the current rotation. As of right now if you can keep their demo from spamming you off roof there is almost no reason to leave hut as scout, it's actually an almost flawless position.

2: Second stalemate is incredibly hard to break
Pushing into second from mid if the other team knows what they are doing and want to park the bus is a herculean task, If you play your combo up on the spire and have your flank watch bottom right there is so little viable counter play the only thing we could get to work was sacking for sniper and hoping to god their flank showed their heads. The height ad offered by the point over choke and the left flank locks out any hope of soldier aggression ever getting anything done. If you keep a scout on spire to defend the med, the right flank can be quite effortlessly locked off by a roamer/scout staying back and baiting the pack. In the newer version it seems the left flank has been opened up a bit more so maybe this won't be as much an issue ? hopefully.

3: This may be fixed in later versions but the last cap breaks on huds for some reason? at about the halfway point of the cap it freezes and you cannot tell how close the cap is to being finished. This actually lost us a round in a scrim because I let someone stand on point thinking it was only half capped and the round instantly ended.

Lastly i think the boxes on last fit a lot better than the concrete slab on last, I don't think sniper is a massive issue on last or anything and considering it is quite hard to get a roamer force because of how much room there is to press s I think the slab being so big is unnecessary.
482
#482
2 Frags +

#1: is actually something interesting I haven't heard before. I'll look into what I can do. I -might- be able to snip a little bit of size out of mid overall, it might just be a pain...

#2: I think the changes to cave have helped this quite a bit. I do think there's more improvements that need to happen in logroom (right flank) - I'm just not entirely sure what they are still.

#3: I heard this from a number of people, and I have literally no clue why that happens. I think it's ok now?

The slab is actually roughly the same size as the boxes were (maybe 25% bigger?) the reason I went for the slab over the boxes was for better splash, the boxes were crap in that regard.

#1: is actually something interesting I haven't heard before. I'll look into what I can do. I -might- be able to snip a little bit of size out of mid overall, it might just be a pain...

#2: I think the changes to cave have helped this quite a bit. I do think there's more improvements that need to happen in logroom (right flank) - I'm just not entirely sure what they are still.

#3: I heard this from a number of people, and I have literally no clue why that happens. I think it's ok now?

The slab is actually roughly the same size as the boxes were (maybe 25% bigger?) the reason I went for the slab over the boxes was for better splash, the boxes were crap in that regard.
483
#483
1 Frags +

THE VICIOUS DOUBLE POST

I was thinking about both points #1 and #2... decided to mess with logroom a bit. Curious for opinions. The new design idea involves moving one of the doors on mid and making it a shutter (harder to see people coming, allowing them closer to the high ground), and changing the inner geometry of logroom making it easier to push further towards 2nd and actually own the flank without getting forced out.

https://i.imgur.com/upKAhkb.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/bomVU8I.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/VckZKSe.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/mEnUeNo.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/jzjCDNr.jpg

THE VICIOUS DOUBLE POST

I was thinking about both points #1 and #2... decided to mess with logroom a bit. Curious for opinions. The new design idea involves moving one of the doors on mid and making it a shutter (harder to see people coming, allowing them closer to the high ground), and changing the inner geometry of logroom making it easier to push further towards 2nd and actually own the flank without getting forced out.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/upKAhkb.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/bomVU8I.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/VckZKSe.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/mEnUeNo.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/jzjCDNr.jpg[/img]
484
#484
2 Frags +

Actually like this change a lot, should give soldiers more of a chance, I appreciate how openly you take feedback. This may be fixed (I don't have tf2 installed to check right now) But in the version i looked at a week or so ago the concrete slab on last is hovering about a unit off the ground. I forgot to mention this in my nerd text wall. absolutely of no gameplay significance but thought you might like to know.

Actually like this change a lot, should give soldiers more of a chance, I appreciate how openly you take feedback. This may be fixed (I don't have tf2 installed to check right now) But in the version i looked at a week or so ago the concrete slab on last is hovering about a unit off the ground. I forgot to mention this in my nerd text wall. absolutely of no gameplay significance but thought you might like to know.
485
#485
3 Frags +
sage_Actually like this change a lot, should give soldiers more of a chance, I appreciate how openly you take feedback. This may be fixed (I don't have tf2 installed to check right now) But in the version i looked at a week or so ago the concrete slab on last is hovering about a unit off the ground. I forgot to mention this in my nerd text wall. absolutely of no gameplay significance but thought you might like to know.

Appreciate that bit as well, I wouldn't be shocked if it is... lol.

I think we'll probably try this version and hopefully play a couple pugs or something on it to see how it feels. I'm not 100% sold on the shutter / door location on mid, but I really am liking how logroom itself is looking now.

I try to listen to all feedback that I can. I made mistakes when Logjam was in ETF2L where I tried to implement literally everything everyone said partially to please people and partially because I didn't know any better.

I think I know better (at least a bit!) now, so I will listen to what anyone has to say and try to understand where it comes from and talk through it with others before committing to the change. Hopefully you guys keep Logjam in for next season so we can see how the changes stack up.

If anyone wants to dance around on the new logroom and see how it kinda lines up in game, here's the DL: https://www.dropbox.com/s/t1du3ti3s8yzyr2/cp_logjam_rc7pre2.bsp?dl=0

Do note that this version has no clipbrushes, and the new logroom is only on the red side.

[quote=sage_]Actually like this change a lot, should give soldiers more of a chance, I appreciate how openly you take feedback. This may be fixed (I don't have tf2 installed to check right now) But in the version i looked at a week or so ago the concrete slab on last is hovering about a unit off the ground. I forgot to mention this in my nerd text wall. absolutely of no gameplay significance but thought you might like to know.[/quote]

Appreciate that bit as well, I wouldn't be shocked if it is... lol.

I think we'll probably try this version and hopefully play a couple pugs or something on it to see how it feels. I'm not 100% sold on the shutter / door location on mid, but I really am liking how logroom itself is looking now.

I try to listen to all feedback that I can. I made mistakes when Logjam was in ETF2L where I tried to implement literally everything everyone said partially to please people and partially because I didn't know any better.

I think I know better (at least a bit!) now, so I will listen to what anyone has to say and try to understand where it comes from and talk through it with others before committing to the change. Hopefully you guys keep Logjam in for next season so we can see how the changes stack up.

If anyone wants to dance around on the new logroom and see how it kinda lines up in game, here's the DL: https://www.dropbox.com/s/t1du3ti3s8yzyr2/cp_logjam_rc7pre2.bsp?dl=0

Do note that this version has no clipbrushes, and the new logroom is only on the red side.
486
#486
3 Frags +

https://puu.sh/C8r98/a787cdb616.png

Minor complaint: The clipping here can make you get stuck trying to walk up the rock, its a little ambiguous and doesnt line up with the rock well.

[img]https://puu.sh/C8r98/a787cdb616.png
[/img]

Minor complaint: The clipping here can make you get stuck trying to walk up the rock, its a little ambiguous and doesnt line up with the rock well.
487
#487
0 Frags +

Yeah clipping that rock has always been a pain. I'm not sure what the right solution is, if it's unclipped it feels like you should be able to get onto it easily but you really can't... I'll mess with it.

I did finally figure out what was causing the HUD issue at blue last - there were two capture areas for blue last, one at red last and one at blue last... oops. People who are better mappers than me probably have a group set up for there important game entities (control points, spawn rooms, doors, etc.) that they can turn off when they go to copy the whole map half over to make changes from one side to the other happen, but I haven't managed to do that in 5 years... lol.

Still toying with logroom. Came up with a decent idea to keep the old door position as I'm not 100% sure how the shutter will work out. Pics below. Only concern is the sightline in the last pic, but I think shrinking the big concrete pad in the corner of mid and then moving the door to the right so it's behind the log pile in log room would fix that pretty easily.

https://imgur.com/a/JoONlDn

Yeah clipping that rock has always been a pain. I'm not sure what the right solution is, if it's unclipped it feels like you should be able to get onto it easily but you really can't... I'll mess with it.

I did finally figure out what was causing the HUD issue at blue last - there were two capture areas for blue last, one at red last and one at blue last... oops. People who are better mappers than me probably have a group set up for there important game entities (control points, spawn rooms, doors, etc.) that they can turn off when they go to copy the whole map half over to make changes from one side to the other happen, but I haven't managed to do that in 5 years... lol.

Still toying with logroom. Came up with a decent idea to keep the old door position as I'm not 100% sure how the shutter will work out. Pics below. Only concern is the sightline in the last pic, but I think shrinking the big concrete pad in the corner of mid and then moving the door to the right so it's behind the log pile in log room would fix that pretty easily.

https://imgur.com/a/JoONlDn
488
#488
5 Frags +

cp_logjam_rc7pre3

Download: https://tf2maps.net/downloads/cp_logjam.3835/history

Changes:
Logroom is different - adjusted the flow, sightlines, height to make it a more dynamic flank and make it more viable to push through either way.
Made the concrete blocks at the corners of mid slightly smaller to allow logroom's change.
Fixed the damn issue with blue last capping wrong.
Made last cap slightly faster.

https://i.imgur.com/I38nT1R.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/OZZFJTW.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/A8wAzmX.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/A6d7VGA.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/flbPpnH.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/5d8JL6I.jpg

cp_logjam_rc7pre3

Download: https://tf2maps.net/downloads/cp_logjam.3835/history

Changes:
Logroom is different - adjusted the flow, sightlines, height to make it a more dynamic flank and make it more viable to push through either way.
Made the concrete blocks at the corners of mid slightly smaller to allow logroom's change.
Fixed the damn issue with blue last capping wrong.
Made last cap slightly faster.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/I38nT1R.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/OZZFJTW.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/A8wAzmX.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/A6d7VGA.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/flbPpnH.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/5d8JL6I.jpg[/img]
489
#489
6 Frags +

Please ETF2L let us at least have a pre-season cup for this, if not just putting it straight into S32.

Please ETF2L let us at least have a pre-season cup for this, if not just putting it straight into S32.
490
#490
5 Frags +
_KermitPlease ETF2L let us at least have a pre-season cup for this, if not just putting it straight into S32.

Pre-season cup with maps like logjam, reckoner and even metalworks will be sick

[quote=_Kermit]Please ETF2L let us at least have a pre-season cup for this, if not just putting it straight into S32.[/quote]

Pre-season cup with maps like logjam, reckoner and even metalworks will be sick
491
#491
8 Frags +

Yes! That would be rad. I'm thinking of trying one more version with a slight change to logroom, probably the last rc7pre version before rc7.

Also it's post #491, so here's a picture of my babe 491 (I helped restore this at my last job):

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4364/36850044461_ec40188053_b.jpg

Yes! That would be rad. I'm thinking of trying one more version with a slight change to logroom, probably the last rc7pre version before rc7.

Also it's post #491, so here's a picture of my babe 491 (I helped restore this at my last job):

[img]https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4364/36850044461_ec40188053_b.jpg[/img]
492
#492
5 Frags +

cp_logjam_rc7pre4

https://tf2maps.net/downloads/cp_logjam.3835/history

Based on a bit of feedback, tweaked logroom one more time... differences from rc7pre3:
- Made the lower exit on mid a bit wider
- Changed the geometry to be more like the old with a ramp instead of the drop off in the hut on mid
- Raised the roof above the new higher part of logroom
- Replaced a bunch of trim
- Removed a hilarious roamer spot that was a glitched out roof in logroom

https://i.imgur.com/iCc86nX.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/xETzzVS.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/kuuTwYn.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/PWcrLS8.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/dSGOvBQ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/NyBRM5m.jpg

cp_logjam_rc7pre4

https://tf2maps.net/downloads/cp_logjam.3835/history

Based on a bit of feedback, tweaked logroom one more time... differences from rc7pre3:
- Made the lower exit on mid a bit wider
- Changed the geometry to be more like the old with a ramp instead of the drop off in the hut on mid
- Raised the roof above the new higher part of logroom
- Replaced a bunch of trim
- Removed a hilarious roamer spot that was a glitched out roof in logroom

[img]https://i.imgur.com/iCc86nX.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/xETzzVS.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/kuuTwYn.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/PWcrLS8.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/dSGOvBQ.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/NyBRM5m.jpg[/img]
493
#493
5 Frags +

cp_logjam_rc7pre5

Last pre rc7 version.

I'm not 100% sold on changing the rocks on mid to huts, but I wanted to at least give it a shot. Hopefully some of you guys can get a PUG or something organized and let me know if it's a better change or not before rc7 official comes out.

Changes:
-raised the bridge over choke and clipped it more aggressively
-replaced the big rock on mid with a shed that is better used for high ground
-fixed a floating block of concrete at last
-Fixed a broken displacement on second by spire
-fixed some several year old z-fighting on saw room exterior.
-fixed some broken trim at 2nd that was eating splash

https://tf2maps.net/downloads/cp_logjam.3835/history

https://i.imgur.com/fiki8Xj.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/WrY0U3K.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/PdMXeSN.jpg

cp_logjam_rc7pre5

Last pre rc7 version.

I'm not 100% sold on changing the rocks on mid to huts, but I wanted to at least give it a shot. Hopefully some of you guys can get a PUG or something organized and let me know if it's a better change or not before rc7 official comes out.

Changes:
-raised the bridge over choke and clipped it more aggressively
-replaced the big rock on mid with a shed that is better used for high ground
-fixed a floating block of concrete at last
-Fixed a broken displacement on second by spire
-fixed some several year old z-fighting on saw room exterior.
-fixed some broken trim at 2nd that was eating splash

https://tf2maps.net/downloads/cp_logjam.3835/history

[img]https://i.imgur.com/fiki8Xj.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/WrY0U3K.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/PdMXeSN.jpg[/img]
494
#494
6 Frags +

cp_logjam_rc7

https://tf2maps.net/downloads/cp_logjam.3835/history

Changes from rc7pre5:

Show Content
fixed the catwalk around last point not lining up with itself
added trim at the big block on the right side of last
added more trim in the upper left exit of last
added mashed potatoe.
added actual light props to the upper left exit of last
added more trim in lobby
fixed dark logs in logroom
detailed logroom a bit more
added trim on the concrete block at mid
detailed the shed a bit more on 2nd
added trim at the ramp on 2nd
made the pillars at choke flush to the walls
fixed some textures on wood trim at 2nd
deleted the logs that didn't fit in with the theme at 2nd
added the trees back

https://i.imgur.com/2pRfCnk.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/QaX0fjc.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/N9TriCG.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/1yrxTiH.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/wUwXeg4.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/9S9TMZY.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/zaZ2Fh7.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/9b6CjjK.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ctEpolK.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ToMNriA.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/4OVyZ2B.jpg

cp_logjam_rc7

https://tf2maps.net/downloads/cp_logjam.3835/history

Changes from rc7pre5:
[spoiler]
fixed the catwalk around last point not lining up with itself
added trim at the big block on the right side of last
added more trim in the upper left exit of last
added mashed potatoe.
added actual light props to the upper left exit of last
added more trim in lobby
fixed dark logs in logroom
detailed logroom a bit more
added trim on the concrete block at mid
detailed the shed a bit more on 2nd
added trim at the ramp on 2nd
made the pillars at choke flush to the walls
fixed some textures on wood trim at 2nd
deleted the logs that didn't fit in with the theme at 2nd
added the trees back
[/spoiler]

[img]https://i.imgur.com/2pRfCnk.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/QaX0fjc.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/N9TriCG.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/1yrxTiH.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/wUwXeg4.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/9S9TMZY.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/zaZ2Fh7.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/9b6CjjK.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/ctEpolK.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/ToMNriA.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/4OVyZ2B.jpg[/img]
495
#495
6 Frags +

cp_logjam_rc8

download: https://tf2maps.net/downloads/cp_logjam.3835/history

changes based on the feedback from the new (heh) map showcase:

Show Content
-adjusted the doorway at the building on cave and adjusted the geometry in the building itself to make it easier to clear when pushing out of 2nd
-fixed being able to stand on a roof above cave's building exit
-drastically raised the height of the bridge at choke. Need to keep it to prevent ridiculously high bombs azzwzwaznd for optimization sake, but this should allow better high bombs through choke
-adjusted the location of the sheds on mid
-raised the level of one of the exits of logroom on mid to help flank players pushing into mid
-increased 2nd point cap time from "6 seconds" to "7.5 seconds"
-raised the roof! at left side pushing into last, made the door into last larger
-blocked off the cubby in saw
-got rid of a few useless props in lobby
-adjusted the sightline and width of the door pushing into right side of last
-added a window above shutter at last

https://i.imgur.com/0Kbp8QQ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/DyvG6JI.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/2TQ40Hu.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/W5MnYFS.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/fFKBnQM.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/SOOEIXo.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/EZprDJt.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/lpON7Zv.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/KMdEmxT.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/FHUSUMh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/QZwizyv.jpg

cp_logjam_rc8

download: https://tf2maps.net/downloads/cp_logjam.3835/history

changes based on the feedback from the new (heh) map showcase:
[spoiler]
-adjusted the doorway at the building on cave and adjusted the geometry in the building itself to make it easier to clear when pushing out of 2nd
-fixed being able to stand on a roof above cave's building exit
-drastically raised the height of the bridge at choke. Need to keep it to prevent ridiculously high bombs azzwzwaznd for optimization sake, but this should allow better high bombs through choke
-adjusted the location of the sheds on mid
-raised the level of one of the exits of logroom on mid to help flank players pushing into mid
-increased 2nd point cap time from "6 seconds" to "7.5 seconds"
-raised the roof! at left side pushing into last, made the door into last larger
-blocked off the cubby in saw
-got rid of a few useless props in lobby
-adjusted the sightline and width of the door pushing into right side of last
-added a window above shutter at last
[/spoiler]

[img]https://i.imgur.com/0Kbp8QQ.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/DyvG6JI.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/2TQ40Hu.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/W5MnYFS.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/fFKBnQM.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/SOOEIXo.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/EZprDJt.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/lpON7Zv.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/KMdEmxT.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/FHUSUMh.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/QZwizyv.jpg[/img]
496
#496
3 Frags +

cp_logjam_rc9pre1

https://tf2maps.net/downloads/cp_logjam.3835/history

Trying a thing out on mid that I'm not sure about. Keeping the other changes.

changes:
-adjusted a sniper sightline at last from behind the point to the left route in
-made the 45 degree wall in cave closer to the inner chokepoint of cave
-looked into flattening choke out. did not like it - yes it makes it less steep, but it makes choke itself a lot less dynamic and interesting (maybe it could be good with a serious re-work but I don't think that's necessary at this point). It introduces a couple yucky sightlines towards lobby that I didn't feel like just tossing more fences up to block. As it sits, you've got a good counterplay between the height of choke, the height of the point, and the bridge and I think choke is solid for both attackers and defenders.
-removed the sheds and rocks at mid bridge, added awnings on mid
(biggest change that I'm unsure about)

screens:

choke change for those curious (hammer shots only):

Show Content

https://i.imgur.com/twh0UYW.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/846HPGC.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/IbcmIgw.jpg

cp_logjam_rc9pre1

https://tf2maps.net/downloads/cp_logjam.3835/history

Trying a thing out on mid that I'm not sure about. Keeping the other changes.

changes:
-adjusted a sniper sightline at last from behind the point to the left route in
-made the 45 degree wall in cave closer to the inner chokepoint of cave
-looked into flattening choke out. did not like it - yes it makes it less steep, but it makes choke itself a lot less dynamic and interesting (maybe it could be good with a serious re-work but I don't think that's necessary at this point). It introduces a couple yucky sightlines towards lobby that I didn't feel like just tossing more fences up to block. As it sits, you've got a good counterplay between the height of choke, the height of the point, and the bridge and I think choke is solid for both attackers and defenders.
[b]-removed the sheds and rocks at mid bridge, added awnings on mid
[/b] (biggest change that I'm unsure about)

screens:

choke change for those curious (hammer shots only):

[spoiler]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/4cjIOcA.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/Oi32tIF.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/V2pg9Cr.jpg[/img]
[/spoiler]

[img]https://i.imgur.com/twh0UYW.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/846HPGC.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/IbcmIgw.jpg[/img]
497
#497
-1 Frags +

I miss logjam

etf2l pls

I miss logjam

etf2l pls
498
#498
3 Frags +

I have heard rumors of at the very least, a preseason cup...

Definitely excited to see what everyone says. We've come a veeeeeeeeery long way.

I have heard rumors of at the very least, a preseason cup...

Definitely excited to see what everyone says. We've come a veeeeeeeeery long way.
499
#499
6 Frags +

i was bored and decided to fuck around logjam offline, i'm pretty sure at least one of these rollouts is already known but hopefully it helps

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6E6xVO3TOAM

i was bored and decided to fuck around logjam offline, i'm pretty sure at least one of these rollouts is already known but hopefully it helps
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6E6xVO3TOAM[/youtube]
500
#500
4 Frags +

Thanks for making that vid Smesi, I was working on making my own going over the basic ones but those are great as well.

I typically do a double stick out of lobby on demo, though yours is less risky and I don't know if it's necessary to be -that- fast.

The roamer rollouts you had were actually super rad, I usually ended up jumping across lobby and then starting a 4 rocket jump following the path that you did but once out of lobby as sort of an inbetween on the two versions you did.

Seriously though - thanks for sharing.

Thanks for making that vid Smesi, I was working on making my own going over the basic ones but those are great as well.

I typically do a double stick out of lobby on demo, though yours is less risky and I don't know if it's necessary to be -that- fast.

The roamer rollouts you had were actually super rad, I usually ended up jumping across lobby and then starting a 4 rocket jump following the path that you did but once out of lobby as sort of an inbetween on the two versions you did.

Seriously though - thanks for sharing.
501
#501
5 Frags +

To all of our wonderful ETF2L friends who have been playing Logjam tonight (and later this week, for some!) in the cup, I would absolutely love to hear your feedback! Feel free to post here or add me and let's chat!

To all of our wonderful ETF2L friends who have been playing Logjam tonight (and later this week, for some!) in the cup, I would absolutely love to hear your feedback! Feel free to post here or add me and let's chat!
502
#502
1 Frags +

POST 1 - This containts mostly written text about layout changes

MID:
There's a lot of random tiny clutter on the mid point area. If the area as a whole would be larger it wouldn't be as much of a problem but just reducing the clutter would probably make it a lot better. Most of the mid feels like you're either standing on highground or running in trenches and being shot down upon. This trench style of gameplay is particularly horrible for medics, as it forces them to play far back (around the health/ammo in choke) for the entire mid if they want any chance to survive. This also affects the other classes since if they drop down to the floor or get knocked down / denied they are already at a disadvantage.

The area under the point is never used on midfights because there will be a soldier and/or a scout on the hut basically removing you from the midfight. You can't dodge anything because the difference between highground is both too little (height under the bridge leaves no room to dodge spam) or too drastic (hut vs under bridge).

What the mid does fairly well compared to previous versions is that it denies several of the the big sightlines that used to be an issue.

The entrance/exit to logroom and the way it's split up also makes it sort of a part of the clutter issue. It's just a horrible area for fighting and I get the purpose it's serving: to deny sightlines into logroom, however I believe that might be possible some other way.

The way the mid is structured, it would be better for gameplay, I think, if you were able to do highbombs more consistently off of the walls that already exist. (Above the mid-exit from logroom, and above the entrance to cave). There's also an overhang that you can get caught on, which I believe shouldn't be there at all. As the mid is right now, medics play far back, and it would really add potential for agression to have a consistent way to bomb without getting too easily denied by scouts.

Potential solitions:
- Delete as many props as possible on mid to decrease clutter.

- Simplify the geometry while keeping the layout.

- Remove overhangs and stuff, make roofs a bit higher so you can high bomb off them.

- Consider raising the bridge some units higher and make the area under a bit wider as well, making that dynamic on mids more viable.

- Does the huts on mid need to have angled roof? (and if you want that, why the the ^ shape and not the / shape?

- Maybe position the geometry on mid so the gameplay feels less like boxes and trenches, mainly by making the trenches not feel like trenches (wider?)

CAVE: I think the cave area along with the wooden catwalk thing is fine honestly

LOGROOM: Mostly fine, possible layout change in post 2.

CHOKE: I'm not sure you can actually get a good rampslide from mid to second on the displacement. Probably with stickies but I can't hit it even with two rockets

POST 1 - This containts mostly written text about layout changes

MID:
There's a lot of random tiny clutter on the mid point area. If the area as a whole would be larger it wouldn't be as much of a problem but just reducing the clutter would probably make it a lot better. Most of the mid feels like you're either standing on highground or running in trenches and being shot down upon. This trench style of gameplay is particularly horrible for medics, as it forces them to play far back (around the health/ammo in choke) for the entire mid if they want any chance to survive. This also affects the other classes since if they drop down to the floor or get knocked down / denied they are already at a disadvantage.

The area under the point is never used on midfights because there will be a soldier and/or a scout on the hut basically removing you from the midfight. You can't dodge anything because the difference between highground is both too little (height under the bridge leaves no room to dodge spam) or too drastic (hut vs under bridge).

What the mid does fairly well compared to previous versions is that it denies several of the the big sightlines that used to be an issue.

The entrance/exit to logroom and the way it's split up also makes it sort of a part of the clutter issue. It's just a horrible area for fighting and I get the purpose it's serving: to deny sightlines into logroom, however I believe that might be possible some other way.

The way the mid is structured, it would be better for gameplay, I think, if you were able to do highbombs more consistently off of the walls that already exist. (Above the mid-exit from logroom, and above the entrance to cave). There's also an overhang that you can get caught on, which I believe shouldn't be there at all. As the mid is right now, medics play far back, and it would really add potential for agression to have a consistent way to bomb without getting too easily denied by scouts.

Potential solitions:
- Delete as many props as possible on mid to decrease clutter.

- Simplify the geometry while keeping the layout.

- Remove overhangs and stuff, make roofs a bit higher so you can high bomb off them.

- Consider raising the bridge some units higher and make the area under a bit wider as well, making that dynamic on mids more viable.

- Does the huts on mid need to have angled roof? (and if you want that, why the the [b]^[/b] shape and not the [b]/[/b] shape?

- Maybe position the geometry on mid so the gameplay feels less like boxes and trenches, mainly by making the trenches not feel like trenches (wider?)

CAVE: I think the cave area along with the wooden catwalk thing is fine honestly

LOGROOM: Mostly fine,[i] possible[/i] layout change in post 2.

CHOKE: I'm not sure you can actually get a good rampslide from mid to second on the displacement. Probably with stickies but I can't hit it even with two rockets
503
#503
3 Frags +

POST 2 - Imgur link with album FULL OF SPECIFIC FEEDBACK/EXAMPLES:

https://imgur.com/a/8V1PKh0

POST 2 - Imgur link with album FULL OF SPECIFIC FEEDBACK/EXAMPLES:

https://imgur.com/a/8V1PKh0
504
#504
4 Frags +

POST 3: Nerd essay about my philosophy of mapmaking in late beta and release candidate

With all due respect, please take everything I said above with a grain of salt. It took a lot of time to write and I'm very well aware that even considering or trying most of that stuff will take an insane amount of time. I believe this is a GREAT map as of right now, even with all these flaws I pointed out, and could very well become a staple in NA/EU if you keep it on the same track.

I think that you at all costs should stop making big layout changes as of right now. I feel like a part of why logjam still is being developed is because you are a very caring mapmaker and individual, and you are eager to try to improve it. But I'm here to tell you that instead of changing stuff and changing it again if that doesn't work, you should instead revert it. Maybe you could even just modify things instead of doing really large changes.

Don't get me wrong, a lot of changes that have been done could very well be positive both for how it plays and how it's balanced. The reason why changing layouts in large ways should be avoided, is in my opinion, that you very often risk introducing new issues that need to be adressed. In my opinion this is part of the reason this map has sort of struggled to become liked and/or viable. (Along with the general aversion to new maps). In many ways it is functionally a different map than the late beta stages.

Generally I would consider a map moving from alpha to beta once the general layout is set and also fairly balanced. In the beta stage, there should not really be any large layout changes. Mostly small changes OR absolutely necessary layout changes. Most things should be modified instead of changed at this stage. RC should be when you got the layout absolutely nailed, and are focusing only on detailing and bug fixing. Small fixes could still be done but should be conservative. Large layout changes should not really happen unless it the map is broken right at this stage.

With these premises in mind, logjam as of right now is sort of in a late beta or early release candidate. (I know that maps with mostly dev textures and not proper detailing are hard to get tested at all, which is why I did a lot of detailing for my own map and it's still in alpha).

Honestly I can't be bothered reading through my own wall of text another time so I'll just conclude that nothing in any of these posts are meant as personal attacks/mean ignorant comments and I'm just passionate and eager to help - otherwise I would not have wasted my time making these posts believe me. Map is good and better than prolands/badlands, granary/pronary, viaduct/product, and snakewater in my opinion.

POST 3: Nerd essay about my philosophy of mapmaking in late beta and release candidate

With all due respect, please take everything I said above with a grain of salt. It took a lot of time to write and I'm very well aware that even considering or trying most of that stuff will take an insane amount of time. I believe this is a GREAT map as of right now, even with all these flaws I pointed out, and could very well become a staple in NA/EU if you keep it on the same track.

I think that you at all costs should stop making big layout changes as of right now. I feel like a part of why logjam still is being developed is because you are a very caring mapmaker and individual, and you are eager to try to improve it. But I'm here to tell you that instead of changing stuff and changing it again if that doesn't work, you should instead revert it. Maybe you could even just modify things instead of doing really large changes.

Don't get me wrong, a lot of changes that have been done could very well be positive both for how it plays and how it's balanced. The reason why changing layouts in large ways should be avoided, is in my opinion, that you very often risk introducing new issues that need to be adressed. In my opinion this is part of the reason this map has sort of struggled to become liked and/or viable. (Along with the general aversion to new maps). In many ways it is functionally a different map than the late beta stages.

Generally I would consider a map moving from alpha to beta once the general layout is set and also fairly balanced. In the beta stage, there should not really be any large layout changes. Mostly small changes OR absolutely necessary layout changes. Most things should be modified instead of changed at this stage. RC should be when you got the layout absolutely nailed, and are focusing only on detailing and bug fixing. Small fixes could still be done but should be conservative. Large layout changes should not really happen unless it the map is broken right at this stage.

With these premises in mind, logjam as of right now is sort of in a late beta or early release candidate. (I know that maps with mostly dev textures and not proper detailing are hard to get tested at all, which is why I did a lot of detailing for my own map and it's still in alpha).

Honestly I can't be bothered reading through my own wall of text another time so I'll just conclude that nothing in any of these posts are meant as personal attacks/mean ignorant comments and I'm just passionate and eager to help - otherwise I would not have wasted my time making these posts believe me. Map is good and better than prolands/badlands, granary/pronary, viaduct/product, and snakewater in my opinion.
505
#505
7 Frags +

Collaide, no personal attacks taken. This is actually incredible useful information. At a certain point, you sort of get "tone deaf" to your own map - I have overlooked a fair amount of those little things just because I'm so used to them being there. I think you've given a lot of very good feedback, and I've got a good idea where to work from here. I don't think I'm going to implement everything you said, but certainly quite a lot of it.

Thank you for everything you do for the competitive community and for mappers - I sincerely appreciate it.

Collaide, no personal attacks taken. This is actually incredible useful information. At a certain point, you sort of get "tone deaf" to your own map - I have overlooked a fair amount of those little things just because I'm so used to them being there. I think you've given a lot of very good feedback, and I've got a good idea where to work from here. I don't think I'm going to implement everything you said, but certainly quite a lot of it.

Thank you for everything you do for the competitive community and for mappers - I sincerely appreciate it.
506
#506
1 Frags +

Taken from etf2l forums

ErraticNot sure if this even counts as an exploit but I’ll post it anyway. In this spot you can shoot all the way from left flank to 2nd without even being close to it. Making you able to spam easily and not be in any danger. I posted a video of me where I am at the spot, please watch it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jl3iXkpd7Ow
Taken from etf2l forums

[quote=Erratic]Not sure if this even counts as an exploit but I’ll post it anyway. In this spot you can shoot all the way from left flank to 2nd without even being close to it. Making you able to spam easily and not be in any danger. I posted a video of me where I am at the spot, please watch it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jl3iXkpd7Ow[/quote]
507
#507
4 Frags +

Red side only

https://i.imgur.com/7tmXvnu.jpg

Hiding spot from the video in the previous post

https://i.imgur.com/HrKJpA5.jpg

Hiding spot on other side of rocky arch (less consistent)

https://i.imgur.com/pELKw9l.jpg

Not as secret but you can stand here and probably not be seen by teams pushing second

https://i.imgur.com/hNKSUr2.jpg

Red side only
[img]https://i.imgur.com/7tmXvnu.jpg[/img]

Hiding spot from the video in the previous post
[img]https://i.imgur.com/HrKJpA5.jpg[/img]

Hiding spot on other side of rocky arch (less consistent)
[img]https://i.imgur.com/pELKw9l.jpg[/img]

Not as secret but you can stand here and probably not be seen by teams pushing second
[img]https://i.imgur.com/hNKSUr2.jpg[/img]
508
#508
2 Frags +

I fucking hate clipping canyon walls. There's not even anything that says you can't stand there in hammer. I guess I'll go for some wedge shaped clip brushes... thanks for pointing those out!

I fucking hate clipping canyon walls. There's not even anything that says you can't stand there in hammer. I guess I'll go for some wedge shaped clip brushes... thanks for pointing those out!
509
#509
1 Frags +

I think it's an interesting map with a lot of polish already, and I would not mind playing it in an actual season. I agree with everything Collaide said about mid, and I think second is the best part of the map. The sheer size of the map had me confused a bit, but that's more due to the fact that I never played on it before.
One thing I like to mention is the last point, which I consider to be the weakest part of the map. Now I've seen some of my friends say that they think it's good, but it just feels very cluttered to me. Mainly, the fact that you can push relatively unseen due to line-of-sight blockers like walls, means that when I played it the fight was either a big DM fest around the point (if ubers were equal), or the defending team running away all over the place since both spawn doors are super close to each other, and thus easily camped (if the attacking team had ad). The cramped nature of the last also means that defensive offclasses that are here to waste time (heavy, sentry) are less useful.
But I am a poor open gamer and maybe smarter options just weren't thought of.

I think it's an interesting map with a lot of polish already, and I would not mind playing it in an actual season. I agree with everything Collaide said about mid, and I think second is the best part of the map. The sheer size of the map had me confused a bit, but that's more due to the fact that I never played on it before.
One thing I like to mention is the last point, which I consider to be the weakest part of the map. Now I've seen some of my friends say that they think it's good, but it just feels very cluttered to me. Mainly, the fact that you can push relatively unseen due to line-of-sight blockers like walls, means that when I played it the fight was either a big DM fest around the point (if ubers were equal), or the defending team running away all over the place since both spawn doors are super close to each other, and thus easily camped (if the attacking team had ad). The cramped nature of the last also means that defensive offclasses that are here to waste time (heavy, sentry) are less useful.
But I am a poor open gamer and maybe smarter options just weren't thought of.
510
#510
5 Frags +

cp_logjam_rc9 - holy streamlining, batman!

download: https://tf2maps.net/downloads/cp_logjam.3835/history

changes:

Show Content
-moved the HP from left mid to be right by the ammo
-reverted logroom's upper exit to RC7 (flatter)
-moved small ammo off of the arch on mid and moved it closer to the huts
-adjusted the concrete blocks on mid to make it a bit more open and easier to move up to them
-made a fence in cave continue a bit for splash bug purposes
-removed some useless props in cave
-did a little clip fix on mid
-cleaned up some props in logroom
-adjusted the fence by logroom on 2nd to prevent splashbug
-adjusted clipping to fix an exploit in cave
-fixed clipping on a hut on 2nd
-fixed bumping your head on a roof by logroom
-fixed a roof you could stand on cave
-fixed a clipping on a hut on 2nd
-made a part of spire opaque
-adjusted clip on the roof of saw
-not some windows in saw not solid
-adjusted a big beam by spawn to fix some splash bug
-changed the way the pipes on the back side of last connect to ground to fix splash bug
-removed some pointless crates on last
-removed some of the crate stairs in upper left lobby, adjusted the propsand added a fence for better splash
-adjusted the geometry of secret to be smoother
-simplified / smoothed geometry by choke to aid high bombs
-adjusted the location of the HP/ammo in logroom
-removeda ledge above window
-smoothed out the path out of window
-clipped the vents above lobby
-blocked off the cubby in saw
-slightly raised underneath point and raised it's roof at mid
-fixed more shitty clipping in cave
-adjusted the angle of the roof on the houses on mid
-added blockbullets to the logramp on mid
-fixed some holes in the displacements in cave
-fixed some shitty geometry by the logs on mid

SCREENS:

https://i.imgur.com/IOptA0C.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/8HN9dCG.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/zV4S7Qy.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/VV3Jfb5.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/7aD7l2d.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/q26fTmF.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/gmoaMD3.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/WYEZmsB.jpg

cp_logjam_rc9 - holy streamlining, batman!

download: https://tf2maps.net/downloads/cp_logjam.3835/history

changes:
[spoiler]-moved the HP from left mid to be right by the ammo
-reverted logroom's upper exit to RC7 (flatter)
-moved small ammo off of the arch on mid and moved it closer to the huts
-adjusted the concrete blocks on mid to make it a bit more open and easier to move up to them
-made a fence in cave continue a bit for splash bug purposes
-removed some useless props in cave
-did a little clip fix on mid
-cleaned up some props in logroom
-adjusted the fence by logroom on 2nd to prevent splashbug
-adjusted clipping to fix an exploit in cave
-fixed clipping on a hut on 2nd
-fixed bumping your head on a roof by logroom
-fixed a roof you could stand on cave
-fixed a clipping on a hut on 2nd
-made a part of spire opaque
-adjusted clip on the roof of saw
-not some windows in saw not solid
-adjusted a big beam by spawn to fix some splash bug
-changed the way the pipes on the back side of last connect to ground to fix splash bug
-removed some pointless crates on last
-removed some of the crate stairs in upper left lobby, adjusted the propsand added a fence for better splash
-adjusted the geometry of secret to be smoother
-simplified / smoothed geometry by choke to aid high bombs
-adjusted the location of the HP/ammo in logroom
-removeda ledge above window
-smoothed out the path out of window
-clipped the vents above lobby
-blocked off the cubby in saw
-slightly raised underneath point and raised it's roof at mid
-fixed more shitty clipping in cave
-adjusted the angle of the roof on the houses on mid
-added blockbullets to the logramp on mid
-fixed some holes in the displacements in cave
-fixed some shitty geometry by the logs on mid
[/spoiler]

SCREENS:
[img]https://i.imgur.com/IOptA0C.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/8HN9dCG.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/zV4S7Qy.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/VV3Jfb5.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/7aD7l2d.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/q26fTmF.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/gmoaMD3.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/WYEZmsB.jpg[/img]
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