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What's the logic behind unbanning unlocks
31
#31
11 Frags +

oh shit waddup, here come dat thread!

the301stspartanDont u guys get bored of these threads? Some nerd has money left over, flies to valve, they don't give a shit and don't tell him anything new but he feels like the next b4nny competitive spokesperson so he lets us know that valve don't care but with a twist has an idea, then there's 10 pages of the same "future of competitive tf2" thread that makes up like half of tf.tv now and in the end, the whole thing gets 0 attention from valve the players and everyone forgot their own posts by the time the next thread happens and they post the same things there.

http://www.aradani.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/wotlogo.jpg

oh shit waddup, here come dat thread!

[quote=the301stspartan]Dont u guys get bored of these threads? Some nerd [s]has money left over, flies to valve, they don't give a shit and don't tell him anything new but he feels like the next b4nny competitive spokesperson so he lets us know that valve don't care [i]but with a twist[/i][/s] [b]has an idea[/b], then there's 10 pages of the same "future of competitive tf2" thread that makes up like half of tf.tv now and in the end, the whole thing gets 0 attention from [s]valve[/s] [b]the players[/b] and everyone forgot their own posts by the time the next thread happens and they post the same things there. [/quote]

[img] http://www.aradani.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/wotlogo.jpg[/img]
32
#32
-4 Frags +
AmarokGreetings,
I take the risk of posting here, for I seek answers to a question that has crossed my mind regarding the philosophy of certain people among this community towards balancing the game ,and particularly whitelists.
If you take into account that 6s was created by taking the best aspects of the original game. What would be the reasoning behind adding weapons to the game ,that, even if they aren't particularly game breaking, but rather slightly annoying, do not add anything to the game, that'd it be mechanicly or in terms of variety.

Why would you impose on yourself to play with weapons that are irritating and make the game gimmicky with the mere argument being that it isn't blatantly op ?

In your opinion....

[quote=Amarok]Greetings,
I take the risk of posting here, for I seek answers to a question that has crossed my mind regarding the philosophy of certain people among this community towards balancing the game ,and particularly whitelists.
If you take into account that 6s was created by [i]taking the best aspects of the original game[/i]. What would be the reasoning behind adding weapons to the game ,that, even if they aren't particularly game breaking, but rather slightly annoying, [b]do not add anything to the game[/b], that'd it be mechanicly or in terms of variety.

Why would you impose on yourself to play with weapons that are irritating and make the game gimmicky with the mere argument being that it isn't blatantly op ?[/quote]

[i]In your opinion....[/i]
33
#33
-4 Frags +

To add variety, you don't want everyone to run the same loadouts do you?

To add variety, you don't want everyone to run the same loadouts do you?
34
#34
8 Frags +

If something's not worth being banned, it should be unbanned. Nobody will use it anyway if's it's a bad weapon but is slightly annoying to play against.

If something's not worth being banned, it should be unbanned. Nobody will use it anyway if's it's a bad weapon but is slightly annoying to play against.
35
#35
0 Frags +

Why hasn't crossbow been banned yet?
It's retarded to run anything else as medic as it's a direct upgrade from all other weapons, it actually hurts your team to NOT run it.
It's been buffed so many times (even after being stronger than the alternatives) to the point where actually NOBODY uses anything else. Nobody.

Why hasn't crossbow been banned yet?
It's retarded to run anything else as medic as it's a direct upgrade from all other weapons, it actually hurts your team to NOT run it.
It's been buffed so many times (even after being stronger than the alternatives) to the point where actually NOBODY uses anything else. Nobody.
36
#36
19 Frags +

Would anyone want to play medic if the crossbow was banned?

Would anyone want to play medic if the crossbow was banned?
37
#37
7 Frags +

I swear dude just make the Overdose's buff passive instead of active and it could contend the xbow

i miss my needles dude

I swear dude just make the Overdose's buff passive instead of active and it could contend the xbow


i miss my needles dude
38
#38
6 Frags +

The problem with banning or nerfing the crossbow is that you'd be lowering the skill ceiling for medic and also removing a bit of ease and fun from Medic. At this point, buffing the other medic primaries to equal utility of the crossbow is probably the best option.

The problem with banning or nerfing the crossbow is that you'd be lowering the skill ceiling for medic and also removing a bit of ease and fun from Medic. At this point, buffing the other medic primaries to equal utility of the crossbow is probably the best option.
39
#39
7 Frags +
shorasIf something's not worth being banned, it should be unbanned. Nobody will use it anyway if's it's a bad weapon but is slightly annoying to play against.

But how do you choose if it's worth banning or not. And what of weapons that are sidegrades or just a bit better but absolutly aids to play against. That's what bothers me.
When some think that weaps like the lnl or the cow mangler shouldn't be banned...

[quote=shoras]If something's not worth being banned, it should be unbanned. Nobody will use it anyway if's it's a bad weapon but is slightly annoying to play against.[/quote]
But how do you choose if it's worth banning or not. And what of weapons that are sidegrades or just a bit better but absolutly aids to play against. That's what bothers me.
When some think that weaps like the lnl or the cow mangler shouldn't be banned...
40
#40
7 Frags +

You guys do realize that banning the crossbow is yet another scout buff right

You guys do realize that banning the crossbow is yet another scout buff right
41
#41
1 Frags +
DecapotatoYou guys do realize that banning the crossbow is yet another scout buff right

I guess the better question to ask is when is scout getting nerfed rather than what is going to be buffed

[quote=Decapotato]You guys do realize that banning the crossbow is yet another scout buff right[/quote]

I guess the better question to ask is when is scout getting nerfed rather than what is going to be buffed
42
#42
9 Frags +
MR_SLIN3) Unbanning weapons will bring our game more in line with that of the existing competitive game (matchmaking), reducing the barrier of entry for new players to join..

There is no existing competitive game in valve's matchmaking. Next to nobody plays it, there are no players moving over from matchmaking to the competitive scene proper because there are barely any players to move over from MM in the first place. If Valve could remember how to make a solid update and maybe do some advertisement on the steam store page or something, "re-launch" TF2 as a competitive game, THEN there would be something to be said for this.

[quote=MR_SLIN]3) Unbanning weapons will bring our game more in line with that of the existing competitive game (matchmaking), reducing the barrier of entry for new players to join..[/quote]
There is no existing competitive game in valve's matchmaking. Next to nobody plays it, there are no players moving over from matchmaking to the competitive scene proper because there are barely any players to move over from MM in the first place. If Valve could remember how to make a solid update and maybe do some advertisement on the steam store page or something, "re-launch" TF2 as a competitive game, THEN there would be something to be said for this.
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#43
-2 Frags +
eee>eyelander, the sandman or the base jumper

Eyelander is cool af and carry building is a core part of MOBAs. I'd love it if the eyelander was a core part of tf2 cause it would do a lot of cool shit. It'd make momentum more important but also increase the gamesense required because demo situationally would go from incredibly high value pick to mostly worthless use of a sac

Sandman is pretty shit but the ball mechanic isn't inherently flawed. Stuns are bad but honestly with the right mechanic behind it it could be cool. Something like "can't cap for x seconds" or something that makes it a team support weapon would be kinda cool

Base jumper allows more movement options which is good for tf2

tbh it sounds like you have a concrete notion of what TF2 is and refuse to let anything else be "esport" but that's honestly myopic af

b-b-but those are casual weapons!!!

[quote=eee]>eyelander, the sandman or the base jumper

Eyelander is cool af and carry building is a core part of MOBAs. I'd love it if the eyelander was a core part of tf2 cause it would do a lot of cool shit. It'd make momentum more important but also increase the gamesense required because demo situationally would go from incredibly high value pick to mostly worthless use of a sac

Sandman is pretty shit but the ball mechanic isn't inherently flawed. Stuns are bad but honestly with the right mechanic behind it it could be cool. Something like "can't cap for x seconds" or something that makes it a team support weapon would be kinda cool

Base jumper allows more movement options which is good for tf2

tbh it sounds like you have a concrete notion of what TF2 is and refuse to let anything else be "esport" but that's honestly myopic af[/quote]

b-b-but those are casual weapons!!!
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#44
1 Frags +
SminWould anyone want to play medic if the crossbow was banned?

That's not even an argument. If crossbow is literally the sole reason that medic's fun to you, then good luck to ya.

Yes, banning crossbow would lower the skill ceiling, but it makes the game way less gimmicky (which I believe you all hate). Faster heals than medigun, faster building, 150HP arrows to someone who's being a complete retard out of position.

Buff a scout? The net effect of it would be negligible.
Xbow honestly needs a nerf, it's just too powerful compared to the alternatives.

[quote=Smin]Would anyone want to play medic if the crossbow was banned?[/quote]

That's not even an argument. If crossbow is literally the sole reason that medic's fun to you, then good luck to ya.

Yes, banning crossbow would lower the skill ceiling, but it makes the game way less gimmicky (which I believe you all hate). Faster heals than medigun, faster building, 150HP arrows to someone who's being a complete retard out of position.

Buff a scout? The net effect of it would be negligible.
Xbow honestly needs a nerf, it's just too powerful compared to the alternatives.
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#45
13 Frags +
KissakalaWhy hasn't crossbow been banned yet?
It's retarded to run anything else as medic as it's a direct upgrade from all other weapons, it actually hurts your team to NOT run it.
It's been buffed so many times (even after being stronger than the alternatives) to the point where actually NOBODY uses anything else. Nobody.

Mate, the crossbow is a cracking unlock. Being an upgrade on stock is not a reason for banning.

It adds so much to the medic without negatively altering the game balance and it works great in comp and pubs. Most importantly it adds a load of ways for medic to outplay the opposition because there is a big skill cap in terms of awareness and mechanics. This is the heart of a good competitive unlock. It would probably survive being nerfed a bit as well.

You see Valve, you can design good items if you try.

[quote=Kissakala]Why hasn't crossbow been banned yet?
It's retarded to run anything else as medic as it's a direct upgrade from all other weapons, it actually hurts your team to NOT run it.
It's been buffed so many times (even after being stronger than the alternatives) to the point where actually NOBODY uses anything else. Nobody.[/quote]
Mate, the crossbow is a cracking unlock. Being an upgrade on stock is not a reason for banning.

It adds so much to the medic without negatively altering the game balance and it works great in comp and pubs. Most importantly it adds a load of ways for medic to [i]outplay the opposition[/i] because there is a big skill cap in terms of awareness and mechanics. This is the heart of a good competitive unlock. It would probably survive being nerfed a bit as well.

You see Valve, you can design good items if you try.
46
#46
0 Frags +
mousiopeit would be a good idea to periodically change the whitelist if there were actual changes to the weapons made by valve ...
but nothing has changed since the last time, yet here we are again discussing it ...

well it also gives people the chance to go back on changes made in the previous list now that the meta is more or less settled.

[quote=mousiope]it would be a good idea to periodically change the whitelist if there were actual changes to the weapons made by valve ...
but nothing has changed since the last time, yet here we are again discussing it ...[/quote]
well it also gives people the chance to go back on changes made in the previous list now that the meta is more or less settled.
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#47
13 Frags +

im sure if uve gone almost 10 years with bans and valve has seen that why change now and cry for support

im sure if uve gone almost 10 years with bans and valve has seen that why change now and cry for support
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#48
8 Frags +

i mean from the look of it this is just pulling out all the stops since tf2 is on a decline for NA at least

if it didnt concern u to get valve involved during the time when the first few lans were happening WHY NOW

i mean from the look of it this is just pulling out all the stops since tf2 is on a decline for NA at least

if it didnt concern u to get valve involved during the time when the first few lans were happening WHY NOW
49
#49
0 Frags +

because pubbers whined and for a while there we thought we were actually going to get valve support

/thread

because pubbers whined and for a while there we thought we were actually going to get valve support

/thread
50
#50
3 Frags +

the base jumper will always be broken unless its nerfed into uselessness, having that much air control is disgustingly powerful

the sandman's utility either has to be very weak / situational or its utility has to not be free

not-free utility = banners, buildings, ubercharge, soda popper
free utility = jarate, milk, guillotine, sandvich

the base jumper will always be broken unless its nerfed into uselessness, having that much air control is disgustingly powerful

the sandman's utility either has to be very weak / situational or its utility has to not be free

not-free utility = banners, buildings, ubercharge, soda popper
free utility = jarate, milk, guillotine, sandvich
51
#51
0 Frags +
KonceptDecapotatoYou guys do realize that banning the crossbow is yet another scout buff right
I guess the better question to ask is when is scout getting nerfed rather than what is going to be buffed

making shotgun soldier viable instead so scout's skill ceiling isnt lowered may be better

[quote=Koncept][quote=Decapotato]You guys do realize that banning the crossbow is yet another scout buff right[/quote]

I guess the better question to ask is when is scout getting nerfed rather than what is going to be buffed[/quote]
making shotgun soldier viable instead so scout's skill ceiling isnt lowered may be better
52
#52
3 Frags +
GentlemanJonKissakalaWhy hasn't crossbow been banned yet?
It's retarded to run anything else as medic as it's a direct upgrade from all other weapons, it actually hurts your team to NOT run it.
It's been buffed so many times (even after being stronger than the alternatives) to the point where actually NOBODY uses anything else. Nobody.
Mate, the crossbow is a cracking unlock. Being an upgrade on stock is not a reason for banning.

It adds so much to the medic without negatively altering the game balance and it works great in comp and pubs. Most importantly it adds a load of ways for medic to outplay the opposition because there is a big skill cap in terms of awareness and mechanics. This is the heart of a good competitive unlock. It would probably survive being nerfed a bit as well.

You see Valve, you can design good items if you try.

Crossbow would be fine had they not added the uber building mechanic. It is a weapon that doesnt punish you for being bad. You just spam it into a group of people and either it damages an opponent (up to 80 dmg I believe) or heals your teammates for 60-150 hp. On top of all that, you can just switch to your medigun and back without having to reload.
To reward a medic with up to 8-10% (?) uber on max range for spamming your arrows - or when powerbuilding - shooting a not moving target, is simply not necessary.

That being said, it does need to get nerfed but not banned. Yes, you basically have to run it. But by far most medics run it, because it is simply more exciting to use than needles.

[quote=GentlemanJon][quote=Kissakala]Why hasn't crossbow been banned yet?
It's retarded to run anything else as medic as it's a direct upgrade from all other weapons, it actually hurts your team to NOT run it.
It's been buffed so many times (even after being stronger than the alternatives) to the point where actually NOBODY uses anything else. Nobody.[/quote]
Mate, the crossbow is a cracking unlock. Being an upgrade on stock is not a reason for banning.

It adds so much to the medic without negatively altering the game balance and it works great in comp and pubs. Most importantly it adds a load of ways for medic to [i]outplay the opposition[/i] because there is a big skill cap in terms of awareness and mechanics. This is the heart of a good competitive unlock. It would probably survive being nerfed a bit as well.

You see Valve, you can design good items if you try.[/quote]

Crossbow would be fine had they not added the uber building mechanic. It is a weapon that doesnt punish you for being bad. You just spam it into a group of people and either it damages an opponent (up to 80 dmg I believe) or heals your teammates for 60-150 hp. On top of all that, you can just switch to your medigun and back [b]without having to reload[/b].
To reward a medic with up to 8-10% (?) uber on max range for spamming your arrows - or when powerbuilding - shooting a not moving target, is simply not necessary.

That being said, it does need to get nerfed but not banned. Yes, you basically have to run it. But by far most medics run it, because it is simply more exciting to use than needles.
53
#53
9 Frags +

Needles 4 life. The day crossbow became mandatory was a sad day.

I'm *all* for the medic having more to do - but the current implementation of the crossbow dramatically alters player behaviors and underlying assumptions about the game, which results in more chaotic/frustrating game play.

Needles 4 life. The day crossbow became mandatory was a sad day.

I'm *all* for the medic having more to do - but the current implementation of the crossbow dramatically alters player behaviors and underlying assumptions about the game, which results in more chaotic/frustrating game play.
54
#54
10 Frags +
MarxistNeedles 4 life. The day crossbow became mandatory was a sad day.

I'm *all* for the medic having more to do - but the current implementation of the crossbow dramatically alters player behaviors and underlying assumptions about the game, which results in more chaotic/frustrating game play.

the overdose was a fun weapon and having retards stand still waiting for an arrow while 3 enemies surround them is stupid
even dumber when they rage at meds

[quote=Marxist]Needles 4 life. The day crossbow became mandatory was a sad day.

I'm *all* for the medic having more to do - but the current implementation of the crossbow dramatically alters player behaviors and underlying assumptions about the game, which results in more chaotic/frustrating game play.[/quote]

the overdose was a fun weapon and having retards stand still waiting for an arrow while 3 enemies surround them is stupid
even dumber when they rage at meds
55
#55
8 Frags +
MarxistNeedles 4 life. The day crossbow became mandatory was a sad day.

I'm *all* for the medic having more to do - but the current implementation of the crossbow dramatically alters player behaviors and underlying assumptions about the game, which results in more chaotic/frustrating game play.

If Marxist says it I reverse my opinion. Ban it

[quote=Marxist]Needles 4 life. The day crossbow became mandatory was a sad day.

I'm *all* for the medic having more to do - but the current implementation of the crossbow dramatically alters player behaviors and underlying assumptions about the game, which results in more chaotic/frustrating game play.[/quote]
If Marxist says it I reverse my opinion. Ban it
56
#56
-1 Frags +

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/173/Sunk-Cost-Fallacy

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/173/Sunk-Cost-Fallacy
57
#57
3 Frags +

Make it so the crossbow only heals players in the air lol

Make it so the crossbow only heals players in the air lol
58
#58
4 Frags +

It's sad that needles have little to no use, but banning the crossbow would be a mistake as it would lower the skill ceiling of medic and also make him more boring to play.

It's sad that needles have little to no use, but banning the crossbow would be a mistake as it would lower the skill ceiling of medic and also make him more boring to play.
59
#59
0 Frags +
KissakalaWhy hasn't crossbow been banned yet?
It's retarded to run anything else as medic as it's a direct upgrade from all other weapons, it actually hurts your team to NOT run it.
It's been buffed so many times (even after being stronger than the alternatives) to the point where actually NOBODY uses anything else. Nobody.

Because unlike some of the other horrible unlocks which should be banned or never be unbanned unless they are inherently changed to be made somewhat skill based, the crossbow utilizes a skill based mechanic for healing. Conceptually it's a great idea for a weapon it's just not the most balanced especially after they made it build uber. Other weapons like the parachute (completely removes the mastery of jumping and airstrafing that makes top level soldiers so unique) or sandman (a weapon that stuns players in comp tf2 :thinking:) are conceptually terrible weapons that will always be gimmicky unless you completely change them or nerf them to hell.

MR_SLINHere's one line of thought that someone could potentially go down:
1) Banning weapons and creating class restrictions creates our own little pro mod, even if our game is only slightly different from the main game.
2) Pro mods tend to be unsuccessful as far as esports go, especially since you don't get much developer support for your pro mod until it gets really big. This also explains why we haven't had many weapon balances thrown our way.
3) Unbanning weapons will bring our game more in line with that of the existing competitive game (matchmaking), reducing the barrier of entry for new players to join.

If you really wanted to play a game with no unlocks though, I might recommend that you start your own league with no blacklist and no class limits... nobody has done that yet.

This argument makes no sense whatsoever to me. Is csgo a promod for having different round/bomb timers? It also makes the assumption that valve created these weapons from the start to be used in a competitive environment when this obviously isn't true. Therefore the shoulder of burden should be on valve to fix these weapons not on the competitive players when A): there's no evidence whatsoever that having a looser whitelist would result in valve making any change whatsoever in any sort of reasonable timeline especially when no one from the comp scene or the pub scene is interested in valves garbage matchmaking system anyway B): many of the unlocks that are banned and some that were allowed are gimmicky, not skill based, and have been complained about for years C): these weapons will reduce the enjoyment for the competitive players who have been lead on by these completely devoid of evidence promises. If Valve was serious and had the resources to positively affect tf2 they would create some forum of open dialogue between them and top level players/organizers from around the world and would have made a matchmaking system that wasn't awful. Clearly they aren't interested in either of these things so there is no reason to allow the last remaining awful unlocks.

Also where are you getting this remove all the unlocks idea from? I'm pretty sure realistically no one from the comp scene wants this besides a few shitposters. 2007 tf2 is frankly awful and some of the unlocks have definitely added to the game in a positive way. The problem is that valve has released many weapons that are not only unbalanced but completely lacking of any mechanical skill. Allow these weapons and what does tf2 become? The main thing in my opinion that makes tf2 unique in a competitive sense is that it has an incredible high degree of mechanical skill. Take this away and oversaturate the game with unlock after unlock it makes tf2 more bland not unique. There are plenty of other team based fps at this point that don't require much mechanically so I guess all tf2 would have is that it's free to play lmao.

[quote=Kissakala]Why hasn't crossbow been banned yet?
It's retarded to run anything else as medic as it's a direct upgrade from all other weapons, it actually hurts your team to NOT run it.
It's been buffed so many times (even after being stronger than the alternatives) to the point where actually NOBODY uses anything else. Nobody.[/quote] Because unlike some of the other horrible unlocks which should be banned or never be unbanned unless they are inherently changed to be made somewhat skill based, the crossbow utilizes a skill based mechanic for healing. Conceptually it's a great idea for a weapon it's just not the most balanced especially after they made it build uber. Other weapons like the parachute (completely removes the mastery of jumping and airstrafing that makes top level soldiers so unique) or sandman (a weapon that stuns players in comp tf2 :thinking:) are conceptually terrible weapons that will always be gimmicky unless you completely change them or nerf them to hell.

[quote=MR_SLIN]Here's one line of thought that someone could potentially go down:
1) Banning weapons and creating class restrictions creates our own little pro mod, even if our game is only slightly different from the main game.
2) Pro mods tend to be unsuccessful as far as esports go, especially since you don't get much developer support for your pro mod until it gets really big. This also explains why we haven't had many weapon balances thrown our way.
3) Unbanning weapons will bring our game more in line with that of the existing competitive game (matchmaking), reducing the barrier of entry for new players to join.

If you really wanted to play a game with no unlocks though, I might recommend that you start your own league with no blacklist and no class limits... nobody has done that yet.[/quote] This argument makes no sense whatsoever to me. Is csgo a promod for having different round/bomb timers? It also makes the assumption that valve created these weapons from the start to be used in a competitive environment when this obviously isn't true. Therefore the shoulder of burden should be on valve to fix these weapons not on the competitive players when A): there's no evidence whatsoever that having a looser whitelist would result in valve making any change whatsoever in any sort of reasonable timeline especially when no one from the comp scene or the pub scene is interested in valves garbage matchmaking system anyway B): many of the unlocks that are banned and some that were allowed are gimmicky, not skill based, and have been complained about for years C): these weapons will reduce the enjoyment for the competitive players who have been lead on by these completely devoid of evidence promises. If Valve was serious and had the resources to positively affect tf2 they would create some forum of open dialogue between them and top level players/organizers from around the world and would have made a matchmaking system that wasn't awful. Clearly they aren't interested in either of these things so there is no reason to allow the last remaining awful unlocks.

Also where are you getting this remove all the unlocks idea from? I'm pretty sure realistically no one from the comp scene wants this besides a few shitposters. 2007 tf2 is frankly awful and some of the unlocks have definitely added to the game in a positive way. The problem is that valve has released many weapons that are not only unbalanced but completely lacking of any mechanical skill. Allow these weapons and what does tf2 become? The main thing in my opinion that makes tf2 unique in a competitive sense is that it has an incredible high degree of mechanical skill. Take this away and oversaturate the game with unlock after unlock it makes tf2 more bland not unique. There are plenty of other team based fps at this point that don't require much mechanically so I guess all tf2 would have is that it's free to play lmao.
60
#60
-4 Frags +

valve used to not care about competitive tf2 at all. Now they have in game competitve obviously they are more interested in what we do with competitive now, and how the game plays. Valve has been balancing broken unlocks and changing the game especially in the past few years. I feel the pyro updates will bring big changes and items will be changed regardless. Even aspects at the core of competitive could be changed without our input.

valve used to not care about competitive tf2 at all. Now they have in game competitve obviously they are more interested in what we do with competitive now, and how the game plays. Valve has been balancing broken unlocks and changing the game especially in the past few years. I feel the pyro updates will bring big changes and items will be changed regardless. Even aspects at the core of competitive could be changed without our input.
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