Sorry for the bump but it's been a couple weeks so it's probably fair to assume this update got buried.

Still need feedback on this version to determine if the changes work or not, so I'd really appreciate some games being played on it.
Thanks again, looking forward to your responses.

E1 - Experimental Update
Download: koth_bagel_e1

A bunch of experimental changes based on feedback, ideas, and discussion. Really wanna see some games on this version to find out how the changes play.
(No changes are final, if some of them turn out to be dumb and dont work they can be removed)

Help me make Bagel better \o/

Changelog (click for images):

• Map made brighter for visibility
  
• New crate on concrete (blocks sightlines to other concrete)
  
• New crates in valley to provide more cover
  
• Jutting rafters removed, rafters made solid and blockbulleted (so you can jump off them)
  
• Made boiler chokier
  
• (Hugely experimental) Added window and balcony to lobby
  
• Misc smaller changes
  
• Misc visual changes to make stuff look nicer
  
• Random crows

B2 - Artpass/Workshop release only, gameplay changes coming later
Download: koth_bagel_b2

Check out Bagel on the TF2 Workshop!

Completed artpass for workshop release. Next version I'll start experimenting with the gameplay changes suggested in the thread, but this version needed to be out and done with first so I could stop stressing about it.

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Individual Images:

Thank you so much for this feedback!

I've been working more on the artpass since b1 and, while it's nearly finished now, I really don't mind going back over it to address some of these issues if it makes it a better map overall. I may not make the exact changes suggested but I'll definitely consider the reasoning behind them when looking at addressing the problems.

As for intentions with the map, the large lobby was designed to accomodate forward holds but also provide ways to break them, and the large spawn yard was to discourage holding any further forward than the lobby (i think? it was a long time ago). If these are an issue, or otherwise don't work as intended, I can try and do something about them, but I'd like to see forward holds experimented with a bit more before I do anything permanent with them.

B1A
Download: koth_bagel_b1a

Found clip exploits almost immediately after posting b1, fixed them and added a couple other small non-gameplay updates.

Changelog:
- Fixed some clipping issues
- Fixed/Edited soundscapes
- Added decent spec cams

B1 Update
Download: koth_bagel_b1

The Artpass

Been working on this since around when TotH was on; my first ever complete artpass.

With bagel's name starting to be thrown around a bit I figured I should make the map look presentable, and I tried to give it a unique aesthetic since it's a fairly unique map.

This is just an artpassed version of a10, the only gameplay change is the removal of access to the balcony for non-jumping classes, and the removal of a perch spot I never saw used. I will revert these changes if they prove to be poor decisions. Please tell me if I accidentally added a weird spot or blocked a rollout or something.

I am still very open to changing and updating this map, if you have any problems with it or suggestions, please tell me and explain why you think they are a problem. Sometimes the most obvious solution isn't the best one, as it could be a symptom of a larger problem that could be better addressed.

(also this map is not viaduct, so any issues that boil down to "it's different from viaduct" rly need a good reason to fix)

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I mean when they buy the map to put it into the actual game they very much do own it, that's how that works.

I assume the rule is there to stop people going "oh btw now that my map is in the game this texture/model/whatever my friend made is vitally important to the map can you give out some money to them and put it in the game?"

I'm not defending the rule or anything here, just saying what I know from talking to people with maps in the game.

oh fuck i better get back to work on this artpass

It's absolutely nothing to do with competitive, it's straight up just their rules on adding assets/contributors to previously accepted content.

From situations I've heard before, Valve want all assets to be paid for properly, but changing the way money is distributed is a big deal and they don't want to have to do it if they can avoid it.

There was an issue in Vanguard where some textures weren't properly credited and Fubar had to make a personal deal with the artist because Valve couldn't (or wouldn't) change the distribution by that point.

Here's an alt version with the old circular cap and an 8s captime: koth_bagel_a10_alt

I'm not totally sure on what would make an appropriate length but if someone suggests one I'm totally open to doing a test version for that.

A10 Update
Download: koth_bagel_a10

Based on feedback from IM+ pugs.

Changelog:
- Removed underground route (Didn't contribute anything to the map)
- Added larger platform in its place, moved pickups from underground to there.
- Halved cap time
- Enlarged capzone (Replaced the Bagel shape with a square minus two corners)
- Lowered highest platform entrance to mid (intended to nerf sniper but might mess w/ things, trying for a version to find out)
- Added a little hazard strip to highlight a jump in lobby

Haven't yet addressed concerns over complexity of lobby, it's intended to facilitate forward holds and I wanna let it settle for a bit before I can determine whether/what changes need to be made.

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Individual Images:

Thank you all so much for the feedback from that game, this is feedback that'll lead to some much larger changes and I'll look on addressing as much as I can for next version!

clearly a basilisk or hydra, i mean its snakewater