Thanks for taking the time to read through everything. I'm not really dead-set on pushing my specific proposals, but I hope to at least spark some discussion into what can be done better (or at all).

I think the paid staff point is an interesting one, but I'd rather take a different approach.
Rather than pay the admins for the work they do which right now they certainly should be compensated for, I'd like to see if it could go the other way around - reducing their workload to one which is more acceptable for volunteer work.

(Hot Take?) I don't think paying the staff wouldn't be so bad if a majority of the staff of volunteers primary role was to MONITOR systems or execute FIXED RULES instead of being forced to make their own interpretation/do other heavy lifting.

It might just be an idealistic POV, but I think if money went into development into systems that could assist/lighten the responsibility of admins, that's a better long term fix than compensating individuals for their time (I think unless RGL is looking to hire people full time, paying every staff is a slippery slope.)

Howdy TFTV,

I wrote a proposal about a week ago regarding the RGL prize pool and finances - at some point of being told that the reason something was scuffed or not done well was because RGL was a volunteer community/organization I got fed up enough to try to do something about it.

Let me preface by saying I like to think I can somewhat understand - to echo the words of one of my close friends

So I attempt to tackle the problem from a different angle - here is a bit from the preface and an image of the table of contents.

Quote:

Image of Table of Contents: https://i.imgur.com/okuKfZ5.png

I'd appreciate if y'all could give it a read and maybe provide some feedback or discussion.
Link: [RGL Proposal: Money and Development - A Spectator's Suggestions (M.A.D.A.S.S.)]

In the interest of being transparent and being open to discussion, my discord as well as links to the relevant forum threads are provided below.
Discord: FlipFTW#0777
TFTV Forums (You're here!)
RGL Forums

Hi, It is undeniable that there has been issues with policies or decisions in the past: and the effect it has now is present just by some of the posts in this thread - but what I’m concerned about is how everyone wants change, but those willing to do something about it are so competitively few.

In my mind good criticism comes in two parts - identifying the issues AND suggesting a better alternative. Instead of telling RGL to fix their system - why don’t people present proposals of how to fix these issues to RGL - at the very least that way instead of overworked admins solving everything everyone has told them is wrong - they can focus on evaluation and application instead of design. I’m not saying the community should freely design all rules - but I am saying that we can help (If the change is too slow, what can YOU do to accelerate it).

I understand being cynical, but literally nothing can come from closing the doors to communication. 24 I have great respect for the things you’ve created for this community, but let me propose two theoretical examples:

Situation: RGL API gets taken down.

Universe 1
A (Internally) : Huh, the API went down - I’ll go ask what’s up
A: Hey, I noticed the API is down, any reason for that?
RGL: We traced one attack on the website that abused spamming our API, we’ve taken it down until we can ensure it can’t be abused.
A: Oh, that’s a pretty simple fix, you can add a rate limiter on requests to prevent that - here I can send over some documentation on how to do it if you’d like?
RGL: That’d be appreciated - we’ll try to get it back up ASAP.

Universe 2
A (internally) : Huh, the API went down
…
A (internally) : Wow it sure is taking a while.
…
A (internally) : I guess they just hate developers - screw this, why would I work on a project for a community that doesn’t care?

I’ll leave you to make the decision what universe is better.

Ok, let’s explore this idea deeper - you’re probably right that sigafoo has some form of ultimate final decision making power - but what would you have him change? He might be able to change things at the drop of a hat - but what would you suggest he do to make things better? It’s not like he can make people use the ticket system or probably even show if it is effective - if there is an obvious fix to many issues let’s suggest it - I assume both parties want the same thing (do you think RGL likes having to put out fires?). If he has ultimate power why don’t we try to put at least some effort in convincing him instead of insulting him? Have people tried working with him instead of against him? What purpose does calling him “sigretard” serve besides venting and just deteriorating relationships further?

RGL being a collection of individuals - one of the reasons I lean so heavily RGL sympathizer right now is because we have a pretty kickass cast for staff this season - one I (perhaps naively) believe is interested in making significant changes and repairing a fractured relationship with their community - but we have to give them a chance.

People say they want better communication from RGL, and it’s not perfect, but here is RGL, in this thread, trying to express that they are listening - and if we meet them with hostility and don’t even hear them out, then why would they be willing to keep trying to cooperate?

What I’m trying to express here is that when we fail to communicate, when RGL is forced to walk on eggshells - forced to act cold rather than warm in a small community - even if it feels great to vent - everyone loses.

Maybe I’m too much of an idealist, but from my perspective RGL seems like it wants to change - even if it’s just verbally, you have two RGL staff in this thread asking people to DM them (probably because they know the likelihood of having a workable conversation on TFTV).

I don’t think the community has been too easy on RGL - when they do mess up there are no shortage of TFTV posts criticizing them. Post in defense of them are often those saying they understand but don’t agree or those realizing they can’t think of a better solution.

I don’t have all the answers, but maybe the reason “nothing is changing” is because some people can’t bury the hatchet?

This is going quite far down the road of an alternate reality - but I think there is a legitimate point raised. Sigafoo has clearly expressed that ticket system is RGL’s preferred/intended method of communication for problems, which makes sense in that not every situation should be resolved publicly (Can you imagine what it’d be like if every issue raised took the form of a TFTV post?). This does raise an understandable legitimate concern though: how can we trust RGL to rule fairly with a closed-door system?

In my opinion, that’s the discussion that should happen instead of who-dun-it name namecalling threads tend to descend to. In my opinion THIS is the community’s role in the cycle that has gotten lost in the past.
When an community issue happens and RGL gives a ruling, the community and RGL cooperatively work to a system to prevent similar incidents from happening. Sigafoo has described RGLs council system and how AIM’s ban didn’t go through the process so after his response discussion should be about how bans are moved to council discussion and if there is a better way to streamline that process - or even what an accelerated process would look like so that not every appeal has to go through the council. If an issue is really one that could be resolved through simple discussion - then having a way for an obvious situation to not have to go through a lengthy council trial seems ideal.

In any case, there is a small catch-22 here - regardless of how successful the ticket system is - it’s results aren’t made public, while any case on TFTV is; this is an another discussion worth having and another issue to work around.

So my gut instinct when first hearing about this situation was that punishment should befit the crime, and that maybe a mute would have sufficed - but things aren’t very cut and dry when you’re an admin. When I did admin for several communities, one of the rules I held myself to was that I couldn’t block anyone, I held my tongue and listened to people I disliked or disagreed with because as an admin I had a responsibility to hear them out. Even if I was being trolled - I had to be gullible just in case there was a legitimate emergency. I’m not saying this what went through sigafoo’s mind, but honestly at the very least it set a precedent - I have to wonder how many other league admins have avoided being harassed as a result of players knowing there are serious repercussions.

I’ve held the ideal admin is one that rarely has to use their powers, it would have been nice if Sigafoo managed to explain how trolling wasn’t appreciated and convince the other party without it escalating, but in any case, I’m not sure any of this has any relevance - taking a look at the wider picture I just want to make it explicitly clear that what Sigafoo says in this thread - he’s not just speaking for himself - he’s speaking officially on behalf of RGL, no matter how much you hate sigafoo, evaluate his words. To attack sigafoo here is literally shooting the messenger.

Another discussion worth having: how can RGL do surveys better - be it questions or receiving responses. I’d also like some explanation for the results not being made public - but I can understand why they might not.

Personal vendettas: Instead of just pointing out incidents, perhaps we should suggest methods of having fixed rulings - ie: limit the ways they CAN abuse their power (I’m thinking specifically w/ ringers&restrictions, but I think the issue is expandable)

Lan fees: I think this is legitimate, even if the money ended up getting just thrown into the bin, an explanation should be provided if there hasn’t been one already.

Topic: The Mopsy Situation

CAP_CREATURE has a good comment about this topic: where he says

What I want to express is that I think it'd be a mistake to sweep this incident under the rug as "resolved" - I'm not speaking in defense of mopsy, but I think looking at the situation as a whole raises interesting points - Does an accused party have a "right" to their accuser - and if not how to handle if an accused party doesn't know their offense and isn't allowed to know (Is this alright?). This is a discussion not best suited here - but in my opinion one started in a thread by RGL (Which brings me onto the next topic)

Topic: RGL Taking Initiative

I think the interesting point here to me is that there doesn't need to be a discussion over the point that - at least officially - RGL only makes an appearance on TFTV when it comes to putting out fires - responding to criticism and situations getting out of hand.

I'm not great with words, so I'll try to rephrase - My question to Virgil and now Sigfoo is: Does RGL has any considerations/plans for initiating conversation with TFTV instead of playing the reactive role with it/the community.
Taking the above example - I imagine it would look something like starting a thread stating exactly as you have the reasons RGL has the ruling the way it does, acknowledging that perhaps its not perfect and asking the community what they suggest.

Take the most recent announcement by RGL regarding Uber Pauses / their abuse. The situation update is great if not a bit slow - the NOTE of what to if the bug occurs is nice and clearly states RGL stances/punishment... but I disagree with the way how the ruling is tied to "using an illegally gained uber" - this is rife for misinterpretation as you're asking for an admin (or council) judgement on a team/player interpretation mid-game. I would write/make a ruling in a way that even if unfair there wouldn't need to be a judgement call of "um.. are we allowed to use this yet?". (I'd go on, but details on how I would handle it don't belong in this thread).

I have to imagine the pause ruling/update was the result of a round of discussions amongst the admins - and I think it is a mistake to not try to include the community - specifically this community - in those discussions. You don't have to survey what the rule should be, I'm not advocating for the community suddenly being free to determine all the rules as they see fit, but perhaps you can gain insights into potential problems with your options or just obtain potential ideas that a small council might have missed as well as keep your community at least a little informed on what you're "considering" or "having a look at". (We often hear about how rules are "revisited" but don't get to see the discussion that happens, the options being weighed - I think RGL should make an attempt to bridge this gap).

Note: Keep in mind the above were just examples toward a point and suggestion - I know that by talking about such specifics I run the risk of derailing this thread into oblivion, so I'd encourage anyone replying to try to focus on the broad picture and not get lost in the details here.

The Survey Results

As a preface, I have never been a fan of the way RGL handles surveys, I think it's too easy to construe or manipulate information - especially unintentionally.
For starters, as far as I can tell (and maybe I'm just piss poor at searching), I can't find the post-season results for S4, S5, or S6 - if there is a question in every post season survey regarding communication, I'd appreciate if someone could give me a hand finding it or compile the information (I'd love you long time) - I'm interested to see what the survey shows about admin satisfaction with the progressing seasons. If its not public, I'd like to know if there is a reason why - but that's probably - again - a discussion for another thread.

Putting the publicity of said survey/my incompetence aside: The Recent HL survey has a bit about division admins which I think is tangentially relevant: https://rgl.gg/Public/Articles/Default.aspx?a=1584&r=24
Of the 183 surveyed HL participants who interacted with an admin - ~51% rated their experience as good or better, while ~49% rated their experience as neutral, bad, or horrible. This is probably an unfair organization - and I don't follow the HL scene or think that their performance is indicative or even relevant regarding 6s, but in the same article and the same question regarding admin decisions: "Did you feel that your division admin generally made reasonable decisions" had ~51% responded with "Yes, but not every decision" or "No, many decisions were unreasonable".

Here's hoping I don't get lynched for talking about HL, but I wasn't able to find better data to work with - the main point/takeaway of this section is really that data & surveys should be talking points, but I rarely see conversations around them - a small pattern I've noticed even just talking with RGL admins is that they quote statistics that I'd never seen - or even have no option of seeing. Even if the information can't be publicly released, I'd like to see RGL look at sectors they're bad at then START a conversation about how to improve.

Math: https://i.imgur.com/aKiVZNU.png

Hey Virgil, first off I wanted to commend you for doing that thing that RGL has been historically (understandably) hesitant to do - post in TFTV. You’ve also managed to do the somewhat rare thing of having an upfragged post as staff - and I think this is representative of something.

I’m speaking out of my area, but to get an upfraged post from essentially saying “we’re working on it” shows this community’s willingness to believe in you, and I understand there are reasons you can’t say too much - but can you expand a bit on what’s going on? What discussions are taking place - what things you’d like opinions on : I assume one of the reasons you wanted to become staff was to be or help build a bridge to this community right? Is there any chance we can see RGL take initiative in asking TFTV for opinions rather than a weak survey or only showing up to put out fires?

Hi, simple passerby looking to understand the situation better. Been scrolling through past threads and have noticed the “cycle” you describe - RGL and subsequent staff seem to visit/post on these forums only when absolutely necessary - was curious if you could elaborate as to why you think that might be the case.

You say that “You feel an air of superiority from your choices”, I’m trying to understand why RGL would exclude their community (or at least a portion of it) when it comes to making decisions, it seems unusual to me that a community organization would leave it’s own community so in the dark.

I’m sure the classic reply would be something like “welcome to RGL”, but I wonder if in many cases RGL staff is afraid of the response they’ll get regardless of their explanation, as I don’t think many people will disagree that TFTV is often (sometimes justifiably) quick to grab the pitchforks.

I have two main other thoughts,
For starters while I’m sure it’s only a drop in the bucket compared to other situations, what were the lessons to be learned from those cases you listed?
* In aim’s case, it seems like the rules were both vague (players thought it wouldn’t apply to aim since he wasn’t an organization) and undesirable (Preventing players with unique insights from casting decreases overall quality)
* In ford’s case, it sounds like a rushed decision that either means the council system for determining justification of bans is ineffective at preventing mistakes or that there is too much room for admin interpretation toward this rule.
* In mopsy’s case it sounds like there has been an oversight in the rules that needs and deserves immediate correction.

The other thought I had is that RGL being a community organization, why doesn’t TFTV promote volunteers from within? Has there been precedent for a TFTV regular becoming an RGL admin and then turning radio silent, has there been logic/explain action for this shift in attitude? I’m also curious if RGL staff has ever taken the initiative to reach out to TFTV, asking their opinion and initiating discussion on rules or practices. For some of the complaints about RGL being out of touch with thee community has anyone tried to step up and be that bridge / better connection in the past?

Genuinely asking hoping for genuine responses, I can see a lot of frustration, and for the sake for compTF2 - I hope there still is the possibility for reconciliation.

The most fitting description I have for Math is that of a team player and an anchor.

As a team player I have met of no other player yet who can so clearly see the bigger picture, the macrogame and is willing to lose his life to win a push enable a play to win the entire round. It's not really about epic high-bombs or wall bugs, though he does have those as well.

I'm stealing a description from a friend, but Math is a good image of a figure who serves as a "mental anchor" to many teams he has been on, a source of stability when things seem like they're headed full tilt, and a welcome calm level voice when things get messy.

He's also the kind of guy who when a loss happens or even an upset is willing to take the time and review, an attitude of improvement that any team looking to go somewhere will doubtlessly find valuable.

Not much to comment on that hasn't been said already. My experience playing with Maze is that he is committed to improving as a player, and importantly he has that willingness and drive to change and make sacrifices for the good of a team.

My first experience playing with Maze wasn't anything noteworthy, good DM with decent comms, but over the course of a season I witnessed him grow into a main caller, rapidly become a team leader when his team needed it.

If you pick Maze up and provide an environment worth growing in, I guarantee he will grow to fill the space he is given, and rise up to any challenge.

Talking with tristen I was immediately impressed with his knowledge of the game: in performing some demo reviews together, it was immediately apparent he had a great sense of what was going wrong, and how to fix it at all times. All this, however, was overshadowed by something even more notable than his experience: His passion.

I'd be very surprised if someone with this much passion toward TF2 doesn't improve rapidly, pick them up and try to match that level and I'm sure your team will go far.

tl;dr A roamer who goes positive more often than not, a scary opponent, a trustworthy ally.

Reem is the easily the most dedicated player I've had the experience of playing with - when he says he MGEs all the time to improve let me just say he isn't kidding, my first impression of Reem was when I woke up at 2:00AM in the morning to a text in our discord simply saying "anyone down for MGE?", I knew from that moment we had a committed demo.

Although we aren't on the same team now, you can ask any demo in the main div and they will tell you the demo their team fears most is Reem, from the first stick to the two-pipe the presence he puts out is really something to behold, I strongly recommend giving this man a tryout and experiencing it for yourself. Let me just say that if main did "all-star" rosters for classes like highlander, Reem would win that for the main div hands down.

To say Reem only cares about winning isn't really accurate, and to say Reem is incapable of handling criticism doesn't fit my experience from the time I spent playing with him. My largest impression of Reem's adaptability and dedication to improve was during pre-season when we were scrimming process. We had the experience of dealing with teams that would fast bomb our demo, the first scrim went rough as some mids we weren't prepared for it (It really was our first time dealing with it!). The next day, Reem went from getting caught out to getting a free soldier pick for us telling us everything he had researched about getting fast bombed, what to do, what the team can do, and how to play around it.

The point of that long-winded story is thus: Yeah, I think Reem cares about winning and losing, but who doesn't? What you need to know is that Reem is the kind of person willing to make the change, play differently for his team if they think a playstyle is better, or is willing to do his research into how to best perform his role.

As for 7gull's current situation, all I can say is I don't know the current situation between your players, but if your method of "constructive criticism" is actively chasing your team's best I have to really question its effectiveness.

Serious Div2/Adv teams out there on a hunt for a demo, give Reem a try, you won't regret it.

-FlipFTW