https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1DIlJ0dOrKhdjBISUpPaXpyckU/view
Abstract:
"Although video gaming is becoming a more widespread activity beyond its historically core demographic of young males, participation in competitive gaming remains largely male dominated. Addressing this issue, this research examines the experience of female players in one of the world’s most popular games, League of Legends.
Two studies—one qualitative (with 15 participants) and the other quantitative (with 16,821 participants)—confirm that although female players accrue skill at the same rate as males, there remains a dearth of female players in this community. Moreover, those females who play with a male partner are less confident in their skills and often focus on supporting their partner’s advancement, not their own. This work suggests that one way to address the gender gap in gaming is to better understand and improve the social dynamics within popular games."
Overall Discussion:
"As explored in Study 1 and supported by Study 2, many female players may be compelled, pressured, or otherwise directed toward playing the Support role that, though requiring no less competence than other in in-game roles (and arguably more), is nonetheless seen by many players as subordinate to, and less desirable than, the role of ADC."
"Two other factors, which likely contribute to the systematic gender gap in competitive games as a whole, are the social climate that is hostile to females, and the stereotype that females do not belong in, or are not skilled at, the game.
These factors likely hinder the female players from gaining confidence in the game, much as reminders of a negative stereotype induce people associated with that stereotype to conform to the negative expectation (Steele & Aronson, 1995). In other words, many female League players may face a vicious cycle by believing that they are suitable only for Support roles or, more problematically, that they do not belong in the game, female players may refrain from intensive play and/or experimentation with other game roles, which in turn perpetuates these very stereotypes."
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1DIlJ0dOrKhdjBISUpPaXpyckU/view
Abstract:
"Although video gaming is becoming a more widespread activity beyond its historically core demographic of young males, participation in competitive gaming remains largely male dominated. Addressing this issue, this research examines the experience of female players in one of the world’s most popular games, League of Legends.
Two studies—one qualitative (with 15 participants) and the other quantitative (with 16,821 participants)—confirm that although female players accrue skill at the same rate as males, there remains a dearth of female players in this community. Moreover, those females who play with a male partner are less confident in their skills and often focus on supporting their partner’s advancement, not their own. This work suggests that one way to address the gender gap in gaming is to better understand and improve the social dynamics within popular games."
Overall Discussion:
"As explored in Study 1 and supported by Study 2, many female players may be compelled, pressured, or otherwise directed toward playing the Support role that, though requiring no less competence than other in in-game roles (and arguably more), is nonetheless seen by many players as subordinate to, and less desirable than, the role of ADC."
"Two other factors, which likely contribute to the systematic gender gap in competitive games as a whole, are the social climate that is hostile to females, and the stereotype that females do not belong in, or are not skilled at, the game.
These factors likely hinder the female players from gaining confidence in the game, much as reminders of a negative stereotype induce people associated with that stereotype to conform to the negative expectation (Steele & Aronson, 1995). In other words, many female League players may face a vicious cycle by believing that they are suitable only for Support roles or, more problematically, that they do not belong in the game, female players may refrain from intensive play and/or experimentation with other game roles, which in turn perpetuates these very stereotypes."
I don't watch anime myself.
I don't watch anime myself.
I can definitely see patterns of behavior like that in tf2 competitve as well, although on a much smaller scale.
I can definitely see patterns of behavior like that in tf2 competitve as well, although on a much smaller scale.
Exhibit 305982035982093 of why academia is a joke
Exhibit 305982035982093 of why academia is a joke
whymeo
"Two other factors, which likely contribute to the systematic gender gap in competitive games as a whole, are the social climate that is hostile to females, and the stereotype that females do not belong in, or are not skilled at, the game.
These factors likely hinder the female players from gaining confidence in the game, much as reminders of a negative stereotype induce people associated with that stereotype to conform to the negative expectation (Steele & Aronson, 1995). In other words, many female League players may face a vicious cycle by believing that they are suitable only for Support roles or, more problematically, that they do not belong in the game, female players may refrain from intensive play and/or experimentation with other game roles, which in turn perpetuates these very stereotypes."
Jackie Robinson is considered one of the best baseball players ever yet he was literally physically abused and faced some of the most harsh discrimination/treatment of any baseball player ever. He joined the Dodgers despite being hated by almost everyone in baseball and went on to win a World Series.
?????
Females are not discriminated in any league, yet they always decide to play in female leagues on female teams. Take CS for example. Tons of women teams are given fucking salaries to play at open-IM skill level. There's no incentive to improve, no female player or team ever goes to majors (or even major qualifiers) and if any of them do they bomb out of groups. dont blame social stigma on why females (apparently) aren't good at video games.
A real solution is to ban all female leagues and don't salary players until they get into invite. They need an incentive to be as good as males.
[quote=whymeo]
"Two other factors, which likely contribute to the systematic gender gap in competitive games as a whole, are the social climate that is hostile to females, and the stereotype that females do not belong in, or are not skilled at, the game.
These factors likely hinder the female players from gaining confidence in the game, much as reminders of a negative stereotype induce people associated with that stereotype to conform to the negative expectation (Steele & Aronson, 1995). In other words, many female League players may face a vicious cycle by believing that they are suitable only for Support roles or, more problematically, that they do not belong in the game, female players may refrain from intensive play and/or experimentation with other game roles, which in turn perpetuates these very stereotypes."[/quote]
Jackie Robinson is considered one of the best baseball players ever yet he was literally physically abused and faced some of the most harsh discrimination/treatment of any baseball player ever. He joined the Dodgers despite being hated by almost everyone in baseball and went on to win a World Series.
?????
Females are not discriminated in any league, yet they always decide to play in female leagues on female teams. Take CS for example. Tons of women teams are given fucking salaries to play at open-IM skill level. There's no incentive to improve, no female player or team ever goes to majors (or even major qualifiers) and if any of them do they bomb out of groups. dont blame social stigma on why females (apparently) aren't good at video games.
A real solution is to ban all female leagues and don't salary players until they get into invite. They need an incentive to be as good as males.
i'm not arguing for or against this paper, i just want to say #5's example isn't that great because a) we will never forget jackie robinson precisely because all those things made his decision *very difficult*, and b) it took til 20-30 years after it was already common for black players to barnstorm against white players for robinson to make the jump to mlb. this is because it was extremely hard to handle.
so if you're saying, "shit, jackie robinson did it, it's no big deal"
...it was a big deal.
i'm not arguing for or against this paper, i just want to say #5's example isn't that great because a) we will never forget jackie robinson precisely because all those things made his decision *very difficult*, and b) it took til 20-30 years after it was already common for black players to barnstorm against white players for robinson to make the jump to mlb. this is because it was extremely hard to handle.
so if you're saying, "shit, jackie robinson did it, it's no big deal"
...it was a big deal.
as long as turbovirgins continue to carry girls on support for paying attention to them online, that will always be the lower effort road than actually improving their gameplay
as long as turbovirgins continue to carry girls on support for paying attention to them online, that will always be the lower effort road than actually improving their gameplay
Reerowhymeo
"Two other factors, which likely contribute to the systematic gender gap in competitive games as a whole, are the social climate that is hostile to females, and the stereotype that females do not belong in, or are not skilled at, the game.
These factors likely hinder the female players from gaining confidence in the game, much as reminders of a negative stereotype induce people associated with that stereotype to conform to the negative expectation (Steele & Aronson, 1995). In other words, many female League players may face a vicious cycle by believing that they are suitable only for Support roles or, more problematically, that they do not belong in the game, female players may refrain from intensive play and/or experimentation with other game roles, which in turn perpetuates these very stereotypes."
Jackie Robinson is considered one of the best baseball players ever yet he was literally physically abused and faced some of the most harsh discrimination/treatment of any baseball player ever. He joined the Dodgers despite being hated by almost everyone in baseball and went on to win a World Series.
?????
yes but before him what African American players were there in MLB ???
Jackie Robinson broke the trend, that doesn't mean the trend didn't exist.
trippaas long as turbovirgins continue to carry girls on support for paying attention to them online, that will always be the lower effort road than actually improving their gameplay
this has literally nothing to do with what the paper is about.
[quote=Reero][quote=whymeo]
"Two other factors, which likely contribute to the systematic gender gap in competitive games as a whole, are the social climate that is hostile to females, and the stereotype that females do not belong in, or are not skilled at, the game.
These factors likely hinder the female players from gaining confidence in the game, much as reminders of a negative stereotype induce people associated with that stereotype to conform to the negative expectation (Steele & Aronson, 1995). In other words, many female League players may face a vicious cycle by believing that they are suitable only for Support roles or, more problematically, that they do not belong in the game, female players may refrain from intensive play and/or experimentation with other game roles, which in turn perpetuates these very stereotypes."[/quote]
Jackie Robinson is considered one of the best baseball players ever yet he was literally physically abused and faced some of the most harsh discrimination/treatment of any baseball player ever. He joined the Dodgers despite being hated by almost everyone in baseball and went on to win a World Series.
?????[/quote]
yes but before him what African American players were there in MLB ???
Jackie Robinson broke the trend, that doesn't mean the trend didn't exist.
[quote=trippa]as long as turbovirgins continue to carry girls on support for paying attention to them online, that will always be the lower effort road than actually improving their gameplay[/quote]
this has literally nothing to do with what the paper is about.
botmodeReerowhymeo
"Two other factors, which likely contribute to the systematic gender gap in competitive games as a whole, are the social climate that is hostile to females, and the stereotype that females do not belong in, or are not skilled at, the game.
These factors likely hinder the female players from gaining confidence in the game, much as reminders of a negative stereotype induce people associated with that stereotype to conform to the negative expectation (Steele & Aronson, 1995). In other words, many female League players may face a vicious cycle by believing that they are suitable only for Support roles or, more problematically, that they do not belong in the game, female players may refrain from intensive play and/or experimentation with other game roles, which in turn perpetuates these very stereotypes."
Jackie Robinson is considered one of the best baseball players ever yet he was literally physically abused and faced some of the most harsh discrimination/treatment of any baseball player ever. He joined the Dodgers despite being hated by almost everyone in baseball and went on to win a World Series.
?????
yes but before him what African American players were there in MLB ???
Jackie Robinson broke the trend, that doesn't mean the trend didn't exist.
Not saying the trend doesn't exist, just that bad social treatment of a minority doesn't make them worse at something
Plenty of black baseball players came after Jackie while also achieving a lot in the MLB while being treated poorly.
[quote=botmode][quote=Reero][quote=whymeo]
"Two other factors, which likely contribute to the systematic gender gap in competitive games as a whole, are the social climate that is hostile to females, and the stereotype that females do not belong in, or are not skilled at, the game.
These factors likely hinder the female players from gaining confidence in the game, much as reminders of a negative stereotype induce people associated with that stereotype to conform to the negative expectation (Steele & Aronson, 1995). In other words, many female League players may face a vicious cycle by believing that they are suitable only for Support roles or, more problematically, that they do not belong in the game, female players may refrain from intensive play and/or experimentation with other game roles, which in turn perpetuates these very stereotypes."[/quote]
Jackie Robinson is considered one of the best baseball players ever yet he was literally physically abused and faced some of the most harsh discrimination/treatment of any baseball player ever. He joined the Dodgers despite being hated by almost everyone in baseball and went on to win a World Series.
?????[/quote]
yes but before him what African American players were there in MLB ???
Jackie Robinson broke the trend, that doesn't mean the trend didn't exist.[/quote]
Not saying the trend doesn't exist, just that bad social treatment of a minority doesn't make them worse at something
Plenty of black baseball players came after Jackie while also achieving a lot in the MLB while being treated poorly.
women have on average slightly longer reaction times than men, which is a big deal in games like CS where reaction time (and aim) is so important
women have on average slightly longer reaction times than men, which is a big deal in games like CS where reaction time (and aim) is so important
ReeroNot saying the trend doesn't exist, just that bad social treatment of a minority doesn't make them worse at something.
the paper actually agrees with that statement
As explored in Study 1 and supported by Study 2, many female players may be compelled, pressured, or otherwise directed toward playing the Support role that, though requiring no less competence than other in in-game roles (and arguably more), is nonetheless seen by many players as subordinate to, and less desirable than, the role of ADC.
the paper mostly points out that the lack of females in (competitive) video games at any skill level (this is almost assuredly different at top level, just as it is for every sport) has nothing to do with actual skill levels and instead is caused by some other factors and in the conclusion conjectures that it's possibly due to the negative atmosphere in video games towards women.
[quote=Reero]Not saying the trend doesn't exist, just that bad social treatment of a minority doesn't make them worse at something.[/quote]
the paper actually agrees with that statement
[quote]As explored in Study 1 and supported by Study 2, many female players may be compelled, pressured, or otherwise directed toward playing the Support role that, though requiring no less competence than other in in-game roles (and arguably more), is nonetheless seen by many players as subordinate to, and less desirable than, the role of ADC.[/quote]
the paper mostly points out that the lack of females in (competitive) video games at any skill level (this is almost assuredly different at top level, just as it is for every sport) has nothing to do with actual skill levels and instead is caused by some other factors and in the conclusion conjectures that it's possibly due to the negative atmosphere in video games towards women.
It even says "female players accrue skill at the same rate as males". It is definitely not saying that these experiences make women worse at LoL.
It even says "female players accrue skill at the same rate as males". It is definitely not saying that these experiences make women worse at LoL.
rocketslaywomen have on average slightly longer reaction times than men, which is a big deal in games like CS where reaction time (and aim) is so important
IDK if you can put it to reaction time, CS has some of the oldest pros in esports
[quote=rocketslay]women have on average slightly longer reaction times than men, which is a big deal in games like CS where reaction time (and aim) is so important[/quote]
IDK if you can put it to reaction time, CS has some of the oldest pros in esports
my e-girlfriend pocket medic who helps me DESTROY pubs doesn't seem to feel pressured after i put my e-dick in her e-vagina >:)
my e-girlfriend pocket medic who helps me DESTROY pubs doesn't seem to feel pressured after i put my e-dick in her e-vagina >:)
fuck are you on about? because of the discrimination 42 didnt enter the mlb until he was 28. if he had 7 or 8 more seasons he would be the undisputable best 2nd baseman in history.
fuck are you on about? because of the discrimination 42 didnt enter the mlb until he was 28. if he had 7 or 8 more seasons he would be the undisputable best 2nd baseman in history.
botmodetrippaas long as turbovirgins continue to carry girls on support for paying attention to them online, that will always be the lower effort road than actually improving their gameplay
this has literally nothing to do with what the paper is about.
hmm?
clearly if both men and women attain skill at the same rate, but yet only men reach the highest skill levels, there is the aspect of motivation that is a factor. women have less motivation since they have other, easier methods of getting ahead in the game, while men either are lucky to be in a good social circle or have to instead grind to improve in order to get anything out of it. the human brain responds to incentives and the incentive for women to improve is much much lower than for men.
I don't need to discuss what the paper found since they did the study, not me. I can instead make conclusions from what they found.
[quote=botmode][quote=trippa]as long as turbovirgins continue to carry girls on support for paying attention to them online, that will always be the lower effort road than actually improving their gameplay[/quote]
this has literally nothing to do with what the paper is about.[/quote]
hmm?
clearly if both men and women attain skill at the same rate, but yet only men reach the highest skill levels, there is the aspect of motivation that is a factor. women have less motivation since they have other, easier methods of getting ahead in the game, while men either are lucky to be in a good social circle or have to instead grind to improve in order to get anything out of it. the human brain responds to incentives and the incentive for women to improve is much much lower than for men.
I don't need to discuss what the paper found since they did the study, not me. I can instead make conclusions from what they found.
whymeo
botmode
Whoops, I misinterpreted the argument, but my point about people like Jackie Robinson and Larry Doby still stand. Those players didn't succeed in the MLB due to a change in social stigma, as they were still discriminated against in their careers. They just played the game and did it well enough to eventually be accepted. They changed the social climate.
As stated before,we should work on changing the social climate with female results. If females practice and enter invite-level on Their own, the negative stigma will disappear, just like it did in the 50s in the MLB.
[quote=whymeo][/quote]
[quote=botmode][/quote]
Whoops, I misinterpreted the argument, but my point about people like Jackie Robinson and Larry Doby still stand. Those players didn't succeed in the MLB due to a change in social stigma, as they were still discriminated against in their careers. They just played the game and did it well enough to eventually be accepted. They changed the social climate.
As stated before,we should work on changing the social climate with female results. If females practice and enter invite-level on Their own, the negative stigma will disappear, just like it did in the 50s in the MLB.
Reerowhymeo
botmode
Whoops, I misinterpreted the argument, but my point about people like Jackie Robinson and Larry Doby still stand. Those players didn't succeed in the MLB due to a change in social stigma, as they were still discriminated against in their careers. They just played the game and did it well enough to eventually be accepted.
As stated before,we should work on changing the social climate with female results. If females practice and enter invite-level on Their own, the negative stigma will disappear, just like it did in the 50s in the MLB.
agreed
[quote=Reero][quote=whymeo][/quote]
[quote=botmode][/quote]
Whoops, I misinterpreted the argument, but my point about people like Jackie Robinson and Larry Doby still stand. Those players didn't succeed in the MLB due to a change in social stigma, as they were still discriminated against in their careers. They just played the game and did it well enough to eventually be accepted.
As stated before,we should work on changing the social climate with female results. If females practice and enter invite-level on Their own, the negative stigma will disappear, just like it did in the 50s in the MLB.[/quote]
agreed
Women may have on average longer reaction times but there's no way it's such a disparity they can't play csgo at any matchmaking rank or whatever system you'd use to rate overall skill. And especially at the pro level, where only the quickest can play, most of those women probably have great reaction times too.
Women may have on average longer reaction times but there's no way it's such a disparity they can't play csgo at any matchmaking rank or whatever system you'd use to rate overall skill. And especially at the pro level, where only the quickest can play, most of those women probably have great reaction times too.
well its possible that people would be discouraged to improve by social climates because there was that case recently where a woman got diamond rank on league or something and ppl on twitch were saying that she cheated etc.
well its possible that people would be discouraged to improve by social climates because there was that case recently where a woman got diamond rank on league or something and ppl on twitch were saying that she cheated etc.
trippa
hmm?
clearly if both men and women attain skill at the same rate, but yet only men reach the highest skill levels, there is the aspect of motivation that is a factor. women have less motivation since they have other, easier methods of getting ahead in the game, while men either are lucky to be in a good social circle or have to instead grind to improve in order to get anything out of it. the human brain responds to incentives and the incentive for women to improve is much much lower than for men.
I don't need to discuss what the paper found since they did the study, not me. I can instead make conclusions from what they found.
Maybe women have less motivation to get really good at the game because it sucks to get really good at something and have people look down on you and assume you just got carried.
[quote=trippa]
hmm?
clearly if both men and women attain skill at the same rate, but yet only men reach the highest skill levels, there is the aspect of motivation that is a factor. women have less motivation since they have other, easier methods of getting ahead in the game, while men either are lucky to be in a good social circle or have to instead grind to improve in order to get anything out of it. the human brain responds to incentives and the incentive for women to improve is much much lower than for men.
I don't need to discuss what the paper found since they did the study, not me. I can instead make conclusions from what they found.[/quote]
Maybe women have less motivation to get really good at the game because it sucks to get really good at something and have people look down on you and assume you just got carried.
yea and both are problems, both putting girls on a pedestal and dismissing their skill are harmful to their progession
yea and both are problems, both putting girls on a pedestal and dismissing their skill are harmful to their progession
It's absolutely because of stigma... tell a girl IRL that you play competitive esports and see how she responds.
Not only that but every single skilled female player I know is constantly targeted and harassed far more than the average male player. If it isn't enough to have the balls to swat literal autists off you 24/7, you need to retain focus and drive with way less respect than a male player would get with the same level of skill.
It's absolutely because of stigma... tell a girl IRL that you play competitive esports and see how she responds.
Not only that but every single skilled female player I know is constantly targeted and harassed far more than the average male player. If it isn't enough to have the balls to swat literal autists off you 24/7, you need to retain focus and drive with way less respect than a male player would get with the same level of skill.
i dont think ive ever seen girls put on pedestals in esports for anything other than brand marketing purposes and i think its pretty disingenuous to assert they're somehow both problems of equal magnitude
in fact i would struggle to even make up enough data to show girls progress is hindered in esports because of TOO much praise lol
i dont think ive ever seen girls put on pedestals in esports for anything other than brand marketing purposes and i think its pretty disingenuous to assert they're somehow both problems of equal magnitude
in fact i would struggle to even make up enough data to show girls progress is hindered in esports because of TOO much praise lol
It's not like all female Medic mains are forced to only play Medic, are they?
It's not like all female Medic mains are forced to only play Medic, are they?
friendly reminder that being overbearing and putting the girl on a pedestal ingame is just as damaging as doing the opposite
friendly reminder that being overbearing and putting the girl on a pedestal ingame is just as damaging as doing the opposite
treat others the way you want to be treated
if everyone treats each other the same and gives each other the same amount of respect regardless of gender or sex, this wouldn't be an issue
treat others the way you want to be treated
if everyone treats each other the same and gives each other the same amount of respect regardless of gender or sex, this wouldn't be an issue
https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/comments/6fbsz1/why_are_there_so_many_female_mercy_mains_the_real/
I think this post nails the points pretty well. I know that part of why I played support for so long was stereotype threat and the fact I didn't play fps when I was younger, so I sucked at them when I started.
There is also a good article on how reaction times don't have as much to do with how good pro sports players are, it's prediction, but I can't find the full article. It was on Sports Illustrated a while back.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/comments/6fbsz1/why_are_there_so_many_female_mercy_mains_the_real/
I think this post nails the points pretty well. I know that part of why I played support for so long was stereotype threat and the fact I didn't play fps when I was younger, so I sucked at them when I started.
There is also a good article on how reaction times don't have as much to do with how good pro sports players are, it's prediction, but I can't find the full article. It was on Sports Illustrated a while back.
maybe you should not give a fuck what others think and play whatever champion you want to play
maybe you should not give a fuck what others think and play whatever champion you want to play
I think the only thing that can affect a persons gaming experience is the community and that persons skill level.
Being a girl doesn't make you an automatic support player, just as being a guy doesn't make you an automatic carry. A games classes/roles come with their own pros and cons, you either practice and get better or you don't.
It also matters how a community deals with negative players in both the comp/casual scene. It doesn't matter how good a community tries to polish itself or how many new players are brought in, if a community is shit it shows and if nobody cares about it being shit it defiantly wont last. new players will either lose interest faster with no thought of returning, eventually become part of the problem, join the small group of longstanding players who care but cant do much, or just put up with it expecting no change, which they shouldn't have to do.
The internet brings out the stupid in a lot of people, toxic players are everywhere and regardless of gender it isn't fun for anyone. there's a clear difference between quality bants and being a shithead. As long as the community is working towards buckling down on the latter they'll most likely see a rise in their demographic.
I think the only thing that can affect a persons gaming experience is the community and that persons skill level.
Being a girl doesn't make you an automatic support player, just as being a guy doesn't make you an automatic carry. A games classes/roles come with their own pros and cons, you either practice and get better or you don't.
It also matters how a community deals with negative players in both the comp/casual scene. It doesn't matter how good a community tries to polish itself or how many new players are brought in, if a community is shit it shows and if nobody cares about it being shit it defiantly wont last. new players will either lose interest faster with no thought of returning, eventually become part of the problem, join the small group of longstanding players who care but cant do much, or just put up with it expecting no change, which they shouldn't have to do.
The internet brings out the stupid in a lot of people, toxic players are everywhere and regardless of gender it isn't fun for anyone. there's a clear difference between quality bants and being a shithead. As long as the community is working towards buckling down on the latter they'll most likely see a rise in their demographic.