I hate granary. I do not hate the mid, or the pushes, or the holds. I do not hate playing the map, or looking at it, or watching it be played. I actually really enjoy playing granary. What I really hate is granary red spawns. I know it is just a small issue, but it has always irked me that, in 10 updates to granary, Valve did not decide to change the red spawns. I have lost hope in Valve fixing... well anything really.
So it is up to us, and I think the best way to fix granary spawns, and other map issues, is to make pro versions of the map, and then use them in ESEA. ESEA already controls their own servers, distributes their own client and manages a lot of other components of the TF2 experience. This would be a great way to get people to use their scrim and pug servers as well as give the community something we have deserved for a long time. Maps that are not broken as fuck.
Its not just granary spawns, its also things like:
invisible wall on gullywash mid
asymmetry on many maps (granary etc)
gravelpit issues
clipping problems
shadows through walls on many many maps
We already have pro maps, but I feel that if we want more widescale implementation, we should encourage ESEA to adopt these pro versions, implement them on their servers and play matches on them. Valve isnt going to fix their maps, but we can, and should. In perspective, granary spawns arent that big of a deal, none of these things really are, but they do detract from the experience slightly. If we could, as a community, add on to and remove from the maps we know and love, we could make the game much more fun to play and watch.
I hate granary. I do not hate the mid, or the pushes, or the holds. I do not hate playing the map, or looking at it, or watching it be played. I actually really enjoy playing granary. What I really hate is granary red spawns. I know it is just a small issue, but it has always irked me that, in 10 updates to granary, Valve did not decide to change the red spawns. I have lost hope in Valve fixing... well anything really.
So it is up to us, and I think the best way to fix granary spawns, and other map issues, is to make pro versions of the map, and then use them in ESEA. ESEA already controls their own servers, distributes their own client and manages a lot of other components of the TF2 experience. This would be a great way to get people to use their scrim and pug servers as well as give the community something we have deserved for a long time. Maps that are not broken as fuck.
Its not just granary spawns, its also things like:
invisible wall on gullywash mid
asymmetry on many maps (granary etc)
gravelpit issues
clipping problems
shadows through walls on many many maps
We already have pro maps, but I feel that if we want more widescale implementation, we should encourage ESEA to adopt these pro versions, implement them on their servers and play matches on them. Valve isnt going to fix their maps, but we can, and should. In perspective, granary spawns arent that big of a deal, none of these things really are, but they do detract from the experience slightly. If we could, as a community, add on to and remove from the maps we know and love, we could make the game much more fun to play and watch.
drshdwpuppetinvisible wall on gullywash mid
only in dm dude
[quote=drshdwpuppet]
invisible wall on gullywash mid
[/quote]
only in dm dude
invisible wall on gullywash mid is only present in pre-game tho
invisible wall on gullywash mid is only present in pre-game tho
mdrshdwpuppetinvisible wall on gullywash mid
only in dm dude
well the reason it exists in dm is because dm locks spawn doors open. So, when actually playing gullywash, the invisible wall will actually exist whenever someone exits forward spawn. It just turns out that this is not actually an issue.
[quote=m][quote=drshdwpuppet]
invisible wall on gullywash mid
[/quote]
only in dm dude[/quote]
well the reason it exists in dm is because dm locks spawn doors open. So, when actually playing gullywash, the invisible wall will actually exist whenever someone exits forward spawn. It just turns out that this is not actually an issue.
The invisible wall is a result of the spawn door being held open. In my experience it is very rare to be above the last forward spawn while people are actually spawning out of it.
In DM the door is constantly held open b/c of how soap works.
There is a similar one on upward that is in the lower tunnel area.
The invisible wall is a result of the spawn door being held open. In my experience it is very rare to be above the last forward spawn while people are actually spawning out of it.
In DM the door is constantly held open b/c of how soap works.
There is a similar one on upward that is in the lower tunnel area.
If someone is above your spawn on gullywash mid while you're pushing last and someone is exiting spawn, I honestly think it's a non-issue.
Granary spawns aren't too gamebreaking (sometimes annoying though), though we could just email spam them about the exact issue and they might actually do something about it.
Dunno what gpit issues you're talking about though.
If someone is above your spawn on gullywash mid while you're pushing last and someone is exiting spawn, I honestly think it's a non-issue.
Granary spawns aren't too gamebreaking (sometimes annoying though), though we could just email spam them about the exact issue and they might actually do something about it.
Dunno what gpit issues you're talking about though.
brownymasterIf someone is above your spawn on gullywash mid while you're pushing last and someone is exiting spawn, I honestly think it's a non-issue.
Granary spawns aren't too gamebreaking (sometimes annoying though), though we could just email spam them about the exact issue and they might actually do something about it.
Dunno what gpit issues you're talking about though.
I agree that it is not an issue, but is an example of other problems.
And a while ago (before the granary shit-hole update) every time I played a scrim or match on granary, I would send a bug report about red spawns. Never responded to :(
[quote=brownymaster]If someone is above your spawn on gullywash mid while you're pushing last and someone is exiting spawn, I honestly think it's a non-issue.
Granary spawns aren't too gamebreaking (sometimes annoying though), though we could just email spam them about the exact issue and they might actually do something about it.
Dunno what gpit issues you're talking about though.[/quote]
I agree that it is not an issue, but is an example of other problems.
And a while ago (before the granary shit-hole update) every time I played a scrim or match on granary, I would send a bug report about red spawns. Never responded to :(
drshdwpuppetI agree that it is not an issue, but is an example of other problems.
And a while ago (before the granary shit-hole update) every time I played a scrim or match on granary, I would send a bug report about red spawns. Never responded to :(
How about we organize another emailing? Pick a TF2 dev's email address and send similar complaints. It works surprisingly well when it's multiple people at once (which rarely gets fixed).
[quote=drshdwpuppet]I agree that it is not an issue, but is an example of other problems.
And a while ago (before the granary shit-hole update) every time I played a scrim or match on granary, I would send a bug report about red spawns. Never responded to :([/quote]
How about we organize another emailing? Pick a TF2 dev's email address and send similar complaints. It works surprisingly well when it's multiple people at once (which rarely gets fixed).
Would love to see some of the maps remade into _pro versions with slight variations in order to balance sides.
Would love to see some of the maps remade into _pro versions with slight variations in order to balance sides.
Train tracks on badlands mid. Shit needs to GO. Also I suggest finding someone that has decent or better mapping skills, which we already know a few, and see if they'll fix the problems instead of waiting on Valve to do it never.
edit: there was a fixed version of granary (spawns) but they did some unnecessary shit to choke to make stickies less effective and roamers stronger. kind of stupid and ruined the fix's potential
Train tracks on badlands mid. Shit needs to GO. Also I suggest finding someone that has decent or better mapping skills, which we already know a few, and see if they'll fix the problems instead of waiting on Valve to do it never.
edit: there was a fixed version of granary (spawns) but they did some unnecessary shit to choke to make stickies less effective and roamers stronger. kind of stupid and ruined the fix's potential
Need to remove the freaking computer panels in the spawn that I never fail to get caught on at the beginning of each round.
Need to remove the freaking computer panels in the spawn that I never fail to get caught on at the beginning of each round.
different skyboxes would be cool too but that's irrelevant.
different skyboxes would be cool too but that's irrelevant.
Why does everyone forget you can get stuck in saw room's ceiling on snakewater
Why does everyone forget you can get stuck in saw room's ceiling on snakewater
cp_badlands_pro: now with 100% more snow.
also fixing doors that go up through the ground above them is simple as making them go down instead of up, it breaks canon a little unfortunately but it's better for gameplay.
cp_badlands_pro: now with 100% more snow.
also fixing doors that go up through the ground above them is simple as making them go down instead of up, it breaks canon a little unfortunately but it's better for gameplay.
If most people spawn on the right side in granary red, why not just rollout right?
If most people spawn on the right side in granary red, why not just rollout right?
TurboliciousIf most people spawn on the right side in granary red, why not just rollout right?
its slower
[quote=Turbolicious]If most people spawn on the right side in granary red, why not just rollout right?[/quote]
its slower
drshdwpuppetshadows through walls on many many maps
THIS
As a roamer its really annoying trying to hide somewhere but there are certain spots that you cant use because valve gave the other team built in wall hacks =/
[quote=drshdwpuppet]shadows through walls on many many maps[/quote]
[u][b]THIS[/b][/u]
As a roamer its really annoying trying to hide somewhere but there are certain spots that you cant use because valve gave the other team built in wall hacks =/
downpourTurboliciousIf most people spawn on the right side in granary red, why not just rollout right?
its slower
Wait how? Pocket and scouts are same speed either way they go since they're just running. Roamer is only as fast as the med who's running. And demo can be same speed from either side.
[quote=downpour][quote=Turbolicious]If most people spawn on the right side in granary red, why not just rollout right?[/quote]
its slower[/quote]
Wait how? Pocket and scouts are same speed either way they go since they're just running. Roamer is only as fast as the med who's running. And demo can be same speed from either side.
better than warmfront spawns ;)
better than warmfront spawns ;)
TurboliciousWait how? Pocket and scouts are same speed either way they go since they're just running. Roamer is only as fast as the med who's running. And demo can be same speed from either side.
Imagine the medic, roamer and a scout spawn near the right while the demo, pocket and other scout spawn left. The pocket can just equalize left, the demo might still be able to get 260 before he jumps to second (I say might because I've never tried), the scout on the left would have to change to the right side in order to get any type of buff or wait in yard like the pocket, which takes more time than if everyone went left. The roamer wouldn't be affected by buffs, but I think it takes longer to do a jump from the right side of last and the fact that it's harder than the left side to get an effective jump that lands you right by the door without being stopped by the ceiling above.
[quote=Turbolicious]Wait how? Pocket and scouts are same speed either way they go since they're just running. Roamer is only as fast as the med who's running. And demo can be same speed from either side.[/quote]
Imagine the medic, roamer and a scout spawn near the right while the demo, pocket and other scout spawn left. The pocket can just equalize left, the demo [b]might[/b] still be able to get 260 before he jumps to second (I say might because I've never tried), the scout on the left would have to change to the right side in order to get any type of buff or wait in yard like the pocket, which takes more time than if everyone went left. The roamer wouldn't be affected by buffs, but I [b]think[/b] it takes longer to do a jump from the right side of last and the fact that it's harder than the left side to get an effective jump that lands you right by the door without being stopped by the ceiling above.
If this is what the majority wants, it really makes no difference to me. Just have someone post here all the pro versions along with their download links or pm me them. If you see one that you think is a bad map and shouldn't be used, just reply to whoever posts the list.
If this is what the majority wants, it really makes no difference to me. Just have someone post here all the pro versions along with their download links or pm me them. If you see one that you think is a bad map and shouldn't be used, just reply to whoever posts the list.
kirbyTurboliciousWait how? Pocket and scouts are same speed either way they go since they're just running. Roamer is only as fast as the med who's running. And demo can be same speed from either side.
Imagine the medic, roamer and a scout spawn near the right while the demo, pocket and other scout spawn left. The pocket can just equalize left, the demo might still be able to get 260 before he jumps to second (I say might because I've never tried), the scout on the left would have to change to the right side in order to get any type of buff or wait in yard like the pocket, which takes more time than if everyone went left. The roamer wouldn't be affected by buffs, but I think it takes longer to do a jump from the right side of last and the fact that it's harder than the left side to get an effective jump that lands you right by the door without being stopped by the ceiling above.
Assuming perfect jumps, the only one who's slow here is the scout that spawns away from the medic, if he comes for a buff. The demo can jump from left to right then jump to the right garage door at the same speed he'd be able to jump to the left one. It's a little tricky to get under the overhang but even if he jumps to the back edge of the door he'll be no more than a second slower. The roamer has the hardest job, as jumping off the waist-high wall instead of tires is tough, especially when you have to get over the tire/barricade in yard AND under the overhang, but the next jump through garage is a bit easier for most roamers who jump from the right.
The pocket equalizes like normal, no change for him. The right scout runs to mid like normal (except entering 2nd on the right). The left-spawning scout has to either run to the right through spawn or across yard on last from left to right in order to meet up with the medic for a buff. It's a loss of about 2 seconds or so, but it does allow the roamer to skip jump into garage without the med losing a heal target.
The real problem is that spawns are so random that you can't really practice every possible rollout to perfection and everyone just goes left because it's default.
The only time a split rollout could be a problem is if both scouts spawn opposite the medic and lose those couple of seconds crossing to meet him. Both scouts being late to mid can be disastrous if their scouts +forward.
[quote=kirby][quote=Turbolicious]Wait how? Pocket and scouts are same speed either way they go since they're just running. Roamer is only as fast as the med who's running. And demo can be same speed from either side.[/quote]
Imagine the medic, roamer and a scout spawn near the right while the demo, pocket and other scout spawn left. The pocket can just equalize left, the demo [b]might[/b] still be able to get 260 before he jumps to second (I say might because I've never tried), the scout on the left would have to change to the right side in order to get any type of buff or wait in yard like the pocket, which takes more time than if everyone went left. The roamer wouldn't be affected by buffs, but I [b]think[/b] it takes longer to do a jump from the right side of last and the fact that it's harder than the left side to get an effective jump that lands you right by the door without being stopped by the ceiling above.[/quote]
Assuming perfect jumps, the only one who's slow here is the scout that spawns away from the medic, if he comes for a buff. The demo can jump from left to right then jump to the right garage door at the same speed he'd be able to jump to the left one. It's a little tricky to get under the overhang but even if he jumps to the back edge of the door he'll be no more than a second slower. The roamer has the hardest job, as jumping off the waist-high wall instead of tires is tough, especially when you have to get over the tire/barricade in yard AND under the overhang, but the next jump through garage is a bit easier for most roamers who jump from the right.
The pocket equalizes like normal, no change for him. The right scout runs to mid like normal (except entering 2nd on the right). The left-spawning scout has to either run to the right through spawn or across yard on last from left to right in order to meet up with the medic for a buff. It's a loss of about 2 seconds or so, but it does allow the roamer to skip jump into garage without the med losing a heal target.
The real problem is that spawns are so random that you can't really practice every possible rollout to perfection and everyone just goes left because it's default.
The only time a split rollout could be a problem is if both scouts spawn opposite the medic and lose those couple of seconds crossing to meet him. Both scouts being late to mid can be disastrous if their scouts +forward.
It's a good idea but I think this will raise the barrier to entry in the competitive scene. Playing on badlands and granary for new players is good because they are popular and default.
I honestly wouldn't mind seeing this implemented, but I just want to raise the point that this would just be 1 more obstacle between comp players and people who want to be comp players.
It's a good idea but I think this will raise the barrier to entry in the competitive scene. Playing on badlands and granary for new players is good because they are popular and default.
I honestly wouldn't mind seeing this implemented, but I just want to raise the point that this would just be 1 more obstacle between comp players and people who want to be comp players.
KillingIf this is what the majority wants, it really makes no difference to me. Just have someone post here all the pro versions along with their download links or pm me them. If you see one that you think is a bad map and shouldn't be used, just reply to whoever posts the list.
http://download.eoreality.net/tf2/maps
I'm at school so I can't actually open the page, but I see a bunch of Granary changes and at least one Gravelpit + Gullywash.
[quote=Killing]If this is what the majority wants, it really makes no difference to me. Just have someone post here all the pro versions along with their download links or pm me them. If you see one that you think is a bad map and shouldn't be used, just reply to whoever posts the list.[/quote]
http://download.eoreality.net/tf2/maps
I'm at school so I can't actually open the page, but I see a bunch of Granary changes and at least one Gravelpit + Gullywash.
Can I use that link as a FastDL mirror for my server?
Can I use that link as a FastDL mirror for my server?
It's not mine, I have no idea. I guess if they're putting that stuff up on the internet, why not?
It's not mine, I have no idea. I guess if they're putting that stuff up on the internet, why not?
why are we not all using cp_granary_pro???
no seriously, it already exists.
why are we not all using cp_granary_pro???
no seriously, it already exists.
I love the idea of having pro versions of maps, but unmodified maps are really important too. It will feel very at home for any player trying to enter the competitive scene instead of seeing "_pro" at the end of a map name and wondering what's different.
If Valve could make these fixes that we want, then that would be very ideal so everyone has it instead of needing to download it. I can't imagine it would be an issue as long as a bunch of us send in requests. Otherwise, yeah, let's do pro versions.
Even though this version isn't a Valve official map, I would really like to see the competitive version of Viaduct so that a heavy can't shoot over the sign on that one side of mid.
I love the idea of having pro versions of maps, but unmodified maps are really important too. It will feel very at home for any player trying to enter the competitive scene instead of seeing "_pro" at the end of a map name and wondering what's different.
If Valve could make these fixes that we want, then that would be very ideal so everyone has it instead of needing to download it. I can't imagine it would be an issue as long as a bunch of us send in requests. Otherwise, yeah, let's do pro versions.
Even though this version isn't a Valve official map, I would really like to see the competitive version of Viaduct so that a heavy can't shoot over the sign on that one side of mid.
this sounds like a great idea i hope this gets put into play and not just all talk :D
this sounds like a great idea i hope this gets put into play and not just all talk :D