is no one other than me going to address the pros and cons of implementing bhop into comp tf2?
because the cons so obviously outweigh the pros that it isn't worth it.
they have been addressed many times before in the past
turtsmcgurtsbecause the cons so obviously outweigh the pros that it isn't worth it.
plz i would like to hear the cons
plz i would like to hear the cons
drmtcturtsmcgurtsbecause the cons so obviously outweigh the pros that it isn't worth it.plz i would like to hear the cons
Cons:
Holding +jump for free speed is dumb.
Heavy becomes broken.
Heavy becomes top tier.
Every class to mid faster (mainly heavy)
Soldiers don't need to sacrifice as much HP for speed (only height)
Scout is less useful (you can just bunnyhop around as pyro with more HP, go sniper to mid really fast, and chasing things is harder since you'll probably push them faster)
Defeats the purpose of classes having different speed pro/cons.
Makes any explosive class move more efficiently (1 RJ and bhop and you stream across mid).
And if you ever say that there should be a special part of the mod that doesn't let heavies bunny hop, you'll see how shitty it is to complicate the game even more for a stupid hold +jump mod.
Pros:
You can airstrafe more.
You can "offclass" more.
You need less engagement intelligence to play the game effectively in exchange for the immense skill of learning how to do small airstrafes and hold down +jump
EDIT: Also, those who want to say not +jump holding but instead require precise timing, that's impossible without changing the game itself. Ever been desynced? It's because bhop is server-sided, as it's not a normal game mechanic, and you can't get good precision on the server side for bhopping.
plz i would like to hear the cons[/quote]
Cons:
Holding +jump for free speed is dumb.
Heavy becomes broken.
Heavy becomes top tier.
Every class to mid faster (mainly heavy)
Soldiers don't need to sacrifice as much HP for speed (only height)
Scout is less useful (you can just bunnyhop around as pyro with more HP, go sniper to mid really fast, and chasing things is harder since you'll probably push them faster)
Defeats the purpose of classes having different speed pro/cons.
Makes any explosive class move more efficiently (1 RJ and bhop and you stream across mid).
And if you ever say that there should be a special part of the mod that doesn't let heavies bunny hop, you'll see how shitty it is to complicate the game even more for a stupid hold +jump mod.
Pros:
You can airstrafe more.
You can "offclass" more.
You need less engagement intelligence to play the game effectively in exchange for the immense skill of learning how to do small airstrafes and hold down +jump
EDIT: Also, those who want to say not +jump holding but instead require precise timing, that's impossible without changing the game itself. Ever been desynced? It's because bhop is server-sided, as it's not a normal game mechanic, and you can't get good precision on the server side for bhopping.
What if we implement it like in CS:S? In that game it's pretty hard, and only a few people can do it extremely well.
how are people still trying to get this to happen? You can't just slap a mechanic that worked in one game into another game because it's fun. It's not that easy.
If you want a game that has bunnyhopping, play QuakeWorld.
Team Fortress 2 was specifically designed to not include bunny hopping as a balance decision; it's fundamental to the mechanics of the game.
Team Fortress 2 was specifically designed to not include bunny hopping as a balance decision; it's fundamental to the mechanics of the game.
brownymasterdrmtcCons:turtsmcgurtsbecause the cons so obviously outweigh the pros that it isn't worth it.plz i would like to hear the cons
Holding +jump for free speed is dumb.
Heavy becomes broken.
Heavy becomes top tier.
Every class to mid faster (mainly heavy)
Soldiers don't need to sacrifice as much HP for speed (only height)
Scout is less useful (you can just bunnyhop around as pyro with more HP, go sniper to mid really fast, and chasing things is harder since you'll probably push them faster)
Defeats the purpose of classes having different speed pro/cons.
Makes any explosive class move more efficiently (1 RJ and bhop and you stream across mid).
And if you ever say that there should be a special part of the mod that doesn't let heavies bunny hop, you'll see how shitty it is to complicate the game even more for a stupid hold +jump mod.
Pros:
You can airstrafe more.
You can "offclass" more.
You need less engagement intelligence to play the game effectively in exchange for the immense skill of learning how to do small airstrafes and hold down +jump
EDIT: Also, those who want to say not +jump holding but instead require precise timing, that's impossible without changing the game itself. Ever been desynced? It's because bhop is server-sided, as it's not a normal game mechanic, and you can't get good precision on the server side for bhopping.
lawl, you fail to realize that most people here don't want to have a "hold down spacebar" jump button, half the fun of bhopping is the challenge...do me a favor and open up counter strike source and play a few bhop servers, it's not as easy as you make it out to be...
plz i would like to hear the cons[/quote]
Cons:
Holding +jump for free speed is dumb.
Heavy becomes broken.
Heavy becomes top tier.
Every class to mid faster (mainly heavy)
Soldiers don't need to sacrifice as much HP for speed (only height)
Scout is less useful (you can just bunnyhop around as pyro with more HP, go sniper to mid really fast, and chasing things is harder since you'll probably push them faster)
Defeats the purpose of classes having different speed pro/cons.
Makes any explosive class move more efficiently (1 RJ and bhop and you stream across mid).
And if you ever say that there should be a special part of the mod that doesn't let heavies bunny hop, you'll see how shitty it is to complicate the game even more for a stupid hold +jump mod.
Pros:
You can airstrafe more.
You can "offclass" more.
You need less engagement intelligence to play the game effectively in exchange for the immense skill of learning how to do small airstrafes and hold down +jump
EDIT: Also, those who want to say not +jump holding but instead require precise timing, that's impossible without changing the game itself. Ever been desynced? It's because bhop is server-sided, as it's not a normal game mechanic, and you can't get good precision on the server side for bhopping.[/quote]
lawl, you fail to realize that most people here don't want to have a "hold down spacebar" jump button, half the fun of bhopping is the challenge...do me a favor and open up counter strike source and play a few bhop servers, it's not as easy as you make it out to be...
Saltysally1lawl, you fail to realize that most people here don't want to have a "hold down spacebar" jump button, half the fun of bhopping is the challenge...do me a favor and open up counter strike source and play a few bhop servers, it's not as easy as you make it out to be...
i don't think you read what he said at all
he's saying it's impossible to implement true bunnyhopping into tf2 because of engine limitations, and the only way you can even get bunnyhopping into tf2 is easy mode 'hold down space bar' bunnyhopping
i don't think you read what he said at all
he's saying it's impossible to implement true bunnyhopping into tf2 because of engine limitations, and the only way you can even get bunnyhopping into tf2 is easy mode 'hold down space bar' bunnyhopping
lynaWhat if we implement it like in CS:S? In that game it's pretty hard, and only a few people can do it extremely well.
CS:S was fixed, it's almost impossible to do it now, since most servers are not 100 tick servers.
CS:S was fixed, it's almost impossible to do it now, since most servers are not 100 tick servers.
snowblindSaltysally1lawl, you fail to realize that most people here don't want to have a "hold down spacebar" jump button, half the fun of bhopping is the challenge...do me a favor and open up counter strike source and play a few bhop servers, it's not as easy as you make it out to be...i don't think you read what he said at all
he's saying it's impossible to implement true bunnyhopping into tf2 because of engine limitations, and the only way you can even get bunnyhopping into tf2 is easy mode 'hold down space bar' bunnyhopping
There are settings in cranks bhop mod that allow manual bhopping.
Though that still doesn't help the other imbalances bhopping brings.
i don't think you read what he said at all
he's saying it's impossible to implement true bunnyhopping into tf2 because of engine limitations, and the only way you can even get bunnyhopping into tf2 is easy mode 'hold down space bar' bunnyhopping[/quote]
There are settings in cranks bhop mod that allow manual bhopping.
Though that still doesn't help the other imbalances bhopping brings.
brownymasterCons:...
...can't get good precision on the server side for bhopping.
your cons are all shit and you come off as extremely bias
for the guy legitimately wondering.
the only class it breaks is scout, but that alone is plenty reason why this can never happen. To make scout balanced again you would literally have to give him fly, but remove the accel/deceleration.
The other reason is that we would basically be creating a new game.
Cons:...
...can't get good precision on the server side for bhopping.[/quote]
your cons are all shit and you come off as extremely bias
for the guy legitimately wondering.
the only class it breaks is scout, but that alone is plenty reason why this can never happen. To make scout balanced again you would literally have to give him fly, but remove the accel/deceleration.
The other reason is that we would basically be creating a new game.
>the only class it breaks is scout
it kind of breaks heavy and pyro and sniper and spy and demoman and soldier too
i think engie and medic are the only classes that wouldn't "break" and thats only because they're outright supposed to attend to things
it kind of breaks heavy and pyro and sniper and spy and demoman and soldier too
i think engie and medic are the only classes that wouldn't "break" and thats only because they're outright supposed to attend to things
7 classes broken? vs what? only the other 2 classes? I don't think you understand the concept of broken. I said it creates a new game, obviously balance issues would arise. but yea, engie, medic to a degree, most obviously scout, would all be pretty fucked.
This would further increase the difference between comp and pubs, which is already a pretty big problem for TF2. For that reason alone I think a bhopping mod should never be added to comp TF2.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYEyIGLRqW0
Would be hilarious in TF2.
Would be hilarious in TF2.
equalsdI said it creates a new game, obviously balance issues would arise.
How is making a new game not a broken change? I think you have some fucked up exclusive definition of broken.
How is making a new game not a broken change? I think you have some fucked up exclusive definition of broken.
equalsdbrownymasterCons:...
...can't get good precision on the server side for bhopping.
your cons are all shit and you come off as extremely bias
for the guy legitimately wondering.
the only class it breaks is scout, but that alone is plenty reason why this can never happen. To make scout balanced again you would literally have to give him fly, but remove the accel/deceleration.
The other reason is that we would basically be creating a new game.
I am biased. Cons aren't shit, I don't think anyone wants to deal with fast heavies again (see gru's). Desync is a problem, ever try the mod wth 100+ ping? It registers the bhop late. I also dislike when people suggest turning comp tf2 into a promod game. We shouldn't add mods like that to the game and make it into another. I wish people realized that it's not feasible and will just divide the community.
Also, I dislike how you're fine with completely rebalancing the game years after it's come out. This is a mechanic, not an unlock that can be moderated and assimilated slowly.
Cons:...
...can't get good precision on the server side for bhopping.[/quote]
your cons are all shit and you come off as extremely bias
for the guy legitimately wondering.
the only class it breaks is scout, but that alone is plenty reason why this can never happen. To make scout balanced again you would literally have to give him fly, but remove the accel/deceleration.
The other reason is that we would basically be creating a new game.[/quote]
I am biased. Cons aren't shit, I don't think anyone wants to deal with fast heavies again (see gru's). Desync is a problem, ever try the mod wth 100+ ping? It registers the bhop late. I also dislike when people suggest turning comp tf2 into a promod game. We shouldn't add mods like that to the game and make it into another. I wish people realized that it's not feasible and will just divide the community.
Also, I dislike how you're fine with completely rebalancing the game years after it's come out. This is a mechanic, not an unlock that can be moderated and assimilated slowly.
What would be the point of bunny hopping? It would render the class thats meant to go fast useless and thats a just an alright change? No. Why change the game with a mechanic that just destroys the little class balance we have now? I don't think you want a pyro going at SCOUT speeds to bhop up to you and one shot you with the puff and sting. Or even a heavy flying out of no where, spinning up in mid air to rain a hail of bullets onto you. It just would not, and will never be practical. The reason why bhopping is more practical in games like Quake is because there are no classes. There's no restriction to what a person can do. Here, there is.
lamefxIt kind of already exists:
http://www.youtube.com/user/DeselectYourMind/videos?flow=grid&view=0
These are strafe jumps (which still gain some added distance in quake engine games) done immediately after a normal jump.
This is bunnyhopping (13:16):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZWVY_GrHDU
tf2 is in no way a good game to allow it in as movement speed is one of the big class defining characteristics.
http://www.youtube.com/user/DeselectYourMind/videos?flow=grid&view=0[/quote]
These are strafe jumps (which still gain some added distance in quake engine games) done immediately after a normal jump.
This is bunnyhopping (13:16):
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZWVY_GrHDU[/youtube]
tf2 is in no way a good game to allow it in as movement speed is one of the big class defining characteristics.
Heavy would become top tier, some classes would be useless (both tie into the fact that movement speed pros and cons would become irrelevant) and holding space would allow you to bunnyhop.
I don't understand how in the world these aren't reasons enough to some people as to why bunnyhopping wouldn't work in TF2. And no, you can't do it like they do it in CS. In CS you don't have different classes with different health values and movement speeds.
I don't understand how in the world these aren't reasons enough to some people as to why bunnyhopping wouldn't work in TF2. And no, you can't do it like they do it in CS. In CS you don't have different classes with different health values and movement speeds.
Those bhop plugins are trashy. They make it so easy to do that it's not even skillful. It would also really imbalance CP style of play. For ctf it'd be okay just like in TFC. Imagine a heavy running as fast as a scout.
"Imagine a heavy running as fast as a scout." I have, and it doesn't work. The heavy would basically be a 300 hp scout. Why even use scout then? Double jump while bunny hopping only screws up your speed.
There has yet to be an actual way to make bhopping work in TF2.
There has yet to be an actual way to make bhopping work in TF2.
OK lots of things here to say. Incoming nerd essay...
By allowing bhop with a % speed cap as in tfc it would allow for a faster, higher skilled game but would not change the meta of tf2 IMO. a bhopping heavy to mid is still not as fast as a bhopping scout to mid and further if it followed TFC mechanics, the heavy can't shoot while bunnyhopping so he will still be largely a sitting duck once he starts spinning or shooting his AC.
A lot of people didn't like TF2 when it came out simply because it didn't have bhop anymore. Slowly, the game added advanced movement through different weapons like the boston basher and FAN. I always had a dream that once TF2 got big enough there would be a pro-mode or dedicated servers to running a bhop version of TF2 without a glitchy plugin. However, I think its clear this isn't going to happen from Valve's side. TF2 and CSS both have remnants of bhop/strafe jumping mechanics but the speed limitations in both games make it not advantageous to try to bhop. Along with the removal of grenades it is clear that TF2 is supposed to be a "cleaner more newbie friendly TFC". If someone could make a good bhop server for TF2 then I'd love to fill it with people and try it out but so far I have not found any of these servers to be good enough.
Long version short: TF2 gameplay wouldn't be hugely affected if it added bhop, but TF2 isn't "supposed" to have bhop so people would not accept it. For this reason, I am still holding out that TF3 will have concs and bunnyhopping hurrah!
By allowing bhop with a % speed cap as in tfc it would allow for a faster, higher skilled game but would not change the meta of tf2 IMO. a bhopping heavy to mid is still not as fast as a bhopping scout to mid and further if it followed TFC mechanics, the heavy can't shoot while bunnyhopping so he will still be largely a sitting duck once he starts spinning or shooting his AC.
A lot of people didn't like TF2 when it came out simply because it didn't have bhop anymore. Slowly, the game added advanced movement through different weapons like the boston basher and FAN. I always had a dream that once TF2 got big enough there would be a pro-mode or dedicated servers to running a bhop version of TF2 without a glitchy plugin. However, I think its clear this isn't going to happen from Valve's side. TF2 and CSS both have remnants of bhop/strafe jumping mechanics but the speed limitations in both games make it not advantageous to try to bhop. Along with the removal of grenades it is clear that TF2 is supposed to be a "cleaner more newbie friendly TFC". If someone could make a good bhop server for TF2 then I'd love to fill it with people and try it out but so far I have not found any of these servers to be good enough.
Long version short: TF2 gameplay wouldn't be hugely affected if it added bhop, but TF2 isn't "supposed" to have bhop so people would not accept it. For this reason, I am still holding out that TF3 will have concs and bunnyhopping hurrah!
brownymasterdrmtcCons:turtsmcgurtsbecause the cons so obviously outweigh the pros that it isn't worth it.plz i would like to hear the cons
Holding +jump for free speed is dumb.
Heavy becomes broken.
Heavy becomes top tier.
Every class to mid faster (mainly heavy)
Soldiers don't need to sacrifice as much HP for speed (only height)
Scout is less useful (you can just bunnyhop around as pyro with more HP, go sniper to mid really fast, and chasing things is harder since you'll probably push them faster)
Defeats the purpose of classes having different speed pro/cons.
Makes any explosive class move more efficiently (1 RJ and bhop and you stream across mid).
And if you ever say that there should be a special part of the mod that doesn't let heavies bunny hop, you'll see how shitty it is to complicate the game even more for a stupid hold +jump mod.
Pros:
You can airstrafe more.
You can "offclass" more.
You need less engagement intelligence to play the game effectively in exchange for the immense skill of learning how to do small airstrafes and hold down +jump
EDIT: Also, those who want to say not +jump holding but instead require precise timing, that's impossible without changing the game itself. Ever been desynced? It's because bhop is server-sided, as it's not a normal game mechanic, and you can't get good precision on the server side for bhopping.
Brownymaster, what you don't understand about bhop is that the ratio of speed to each class remains the same, with or without bhop. so the max bhop speed of a heavy is slower than the max of a medic, in the same ratio that it is without the existence of bhop. this cancels out any argument about one class being more powerful than another one, unless you can explain it to me another way. as for finding a way to implement bhop that keeps it challenging, im not sure if this is possible, but maybe there is away if you play around with the physics engine (idk im not an expert in this field).
you use the heavy with gru as an example for bhop not being balanced, but bhop would be nothing like the gru, because everyone would be able to bhop whenever they wanted to, unlike gru where only heavy can use it when he switches to his melee.
i dont see how everybody getting to mid faster is a con, because everyone still gets to mid in the same ratio of time as they would without bhop.
IDEALLY, someone would make a mod where bhop would be as challenging as it is in tfc, where you CAN'T do a low rj to accelerate to your max bhop speed, because a low rj is much faster than 170% of the soldiers defualt speed, and if you do do a low rj and try to bhop in tfc, you will be dropped down to 100% default speed the second you touch the ground b/c you went over the 170% default speed cap.
so far the only really arguments i see are that it would make a even greater barrier between pubbers and comp players, and that the tf2 engine limits the creation of a bhop system that has a significantly steep learning curve.
plz i would like to hear the cons[/quote]
Cons:
Holding +jump for free speed is dumb.
Heavy becomes broken.
Heavy becomes top tier.
Every class to mid faster (mainly heavy)
Soldiers don't need to sacrifice as much HP for speed (only height)
Scout is less useful (you can just bunnyhop around as pyro with more HP, go sniper to mid really fast, and chasing things is harder since you'll probably push them faster)
Defeats the purpose of classes having different speed pro/cons.
Makes any explosive class move more efficiently (1 RJ and bhop and you stream across mid).
And if you ever say that there should be a special part of the mod that doesn't let heavies bunny hop, you'll see how shitty it is to complicate the game even more for a stupid hold +jump mod.
Pros:
You can airstrafe more.
You can "offclass" more.
You need less engagement intelligence to play the game effectively in exchange for the immense skill of learning how to do small airstrafes and hold down +jump
EDIT: Also, those who want to say not +jump holding but instead require precise timing, that's impossible without changing the game itself. Ever been desynced? It's because bhop is server-sided, as it's not a normal game mechanic, and you can't get good precision on the server side for bhopping.[/quote]
Brownymaster, what you don't understand about bhop is that the ratio of speed to each class remains the same, with or without bhop. so the max bhop speed of a heavy is slower than the max of a medic, in the same ratio that it is without the existence of bhop. this cancels out any argument about one class being more powerful than another one, unless you can explain it to me another way. as for finding a way to implement bhop that keeps it challenging, im not sure if this is possible, but maybe there is away if you play around with the physics engine (idk im not an expert in this field).
you use the heavy with gru as an example for bhop not being balanced, but bhop would be nothing like the gru, because everyone would be able to bhop whenever they wanted to, unlike gru where only heavy can use it when he switches to his melee.
i dont see how everybody getting to mid faster is a con, because everyone still gets to mid in the same ratio of time as they would without bhop.
IDEALLY, someone would make a mod where bhop would be as challenging as it is in tfc, where you CAN'T do a low rj to accelerate to your max bhop speed, because a low rj is much faster than 170% of the soldiers defualt speed, and if you do do a low rj and try to bhop in tfc, you will be dropped down to 100% default speed the second you touch the ground b/c you went over the 170% default speed cap.
so far the only really arguments i see are that it would make a even greater barrier between pubbers and comp players, and that the tf2 engine limits the creation of a bhop system that has a significantly steep learning curve.