sheepy_dogs_handeee
it doesn't even matter what I say cause you will just disagree and it will literally go on forever. You have a different view of gunboats ok.
You are wrong on booties being OP though. They aren't OP.
back out of an argument and then say i said something i didn't
ur trump congrats :)
booties aren't OP, just shittily designed :)))
[quote=sheepy_dogs_hand][quote=eee][/quote]
it doesn't even matter what I say cause you will just disagree and it will literally go on forever. You have a different view of gunboats ok.
You are wrong on booties being OP though. They aren't OP.[/quote]
back out of an argument and then say i said something i didn't
ur trump congrats :)
booties aren't OP, just shittily designed :)))
eeesheepy_dogs_handeee
it doesn't even matter what I say cause you will just disagree and it will literally go on forever. You have a different view of gunboats ok.
You are wrong on booties being OP though. They aren't OP.
back out of an argument and then say i said something i didn't
ur trump congrats :)
booties aren't OP, just shittily designed :)))
:))))
:)
:)))))
[quote=eee][quote=sheepy_dogs_hand][quote=eee][/quote]
it doesn't even matter what I say cause you will just disagree and it will literally go on forever. You have a different view of gunboats ok.
You are wrong on booties being OP though. They aren't OP.[/quote]
back out of an argument and then say i said something i didn't
ur trump congrats :)
booties aren't OP, just shittily designed :)))[/quote]
:))))
:)
:)))))
eeeback out of an argument and then say i said something i didn't
ur trump congrats :)
booties aren't OP, just shittily designed :)))
I backed out of the argument for your sake as you get very annoyed by these, I can tell by the way you start to get more and more angry with every post and I can't be bothered arguing with a brick wall. No one is going to admit the other was wrong.
Also you did say booties were OP, it's ok if you want to go back on that and say they are badly designed instead but don't lie and say you didn't say it because you did.
[quote=eee]
back out of an argument and then say i said something i didn't
ur trump congrats :)
booties aren't OP, just shittily designed :)))[/quote]
I backed out of the argument for your sake as you get very annoyed by these, I can tell by the way you start to get more and more angry with every post and I can't be bothered arguing with a brick wall. No one is going to admit the other was wrong.
Also you did say booties were OP, it's ok if you want to go back on that and say they are badly designed instead but don't lie and say you didn't say it because you did.
sheepy_dogs_hand
Also you did say booties were OP, it's ok if you want to go back on that and say they are badly designed instead but don't lie and say you didn't say it because you did.
Show me where I did :)))
[quote=sheepy_dogs_hand]
Also you did say booties were OP, it's ok if you want to go back on that and say they are badly designed instead but don't lie and say you didn't say it because you did.[/quote]
Show me where I did :)))
eeeSideshowGunboats are not a game-changing unlock because you can go around speedshotting and treating things like a jump map.
They're a game-changing unlock because they make every normal rocket-jump far less damaging, letting you jump without being tethered to a medic and letting you move around the map more quickly. It's not an unlock that you have to be skillful to use.
Being good for the game isn't the same as being a well designed weapon tho. Gunboats are well designed AND add to the game. Just because the Booties are a bad weapon doesn't mean they're bad for the game. Something can be OP (EP) or niche af (Conch) and still make the game more fun and interesting, but the idea should be to make weapons that both expand what the class can do with skill and allow the class to close holes in the game that are causing stalemates or unpleasant gameplay. Obviously not every weapon fits both criteria, the Basher isn't a hard weapon to use, and the winger doesn't change the game significantly, but hitting at least one of those is really important in making a weapon that works for 6s
Booties don't create a shift in the demoman class the way the gunboats do. They're not game-changing, and that's strike 1. Strike 2 is they're overpowered. 3 is they're less skill indexed and lower the skill ceiling of the class. Sorry that I didn't really complete that thought earlier but it was mostly a response to like a 3 month old post talking about them being shitty weapons, not shitty for the game.
xd
[quote=eee][quote=Sideshow]Gunboats are not a game-changing unlock because you can go around speedshotting and treating things like a jump map.
They're a game-changing unlock because they make every normal rocket-jump far less damaging, letting you jump without being tethered to a medic and letting you move around the map more quickly. It's not an unlock that you have to be skillful to use.[/quote] Being good for the game isn't the same as being a well designed weapon tho. Gunboats are well designed AND add to the game. Just because the Booties are a bad weapon doesn't mean they're bad for the game. Something can be OP (EP) or niche af (Conch) and still make the game more fun and interesting, but the idea should be to make weapons that both expand what the class can do with skill and allow the class to close holes in the game that are causing stalemates or unpleasant gameplay. Obviously not every weapon fits both criteria, the Basher isn't a hard weapon to use, and the winger doesn't change the game significantly, but hitting at least one of those is really important in making a weapon that works for 6s
Booties don't create a shift in the demoman class the way the gunboats do. They're not game-changing, and that's strike 1. [b]Strike 2 is they're overpowered.[/b] 3 is they're less skill indexed and lower the skill ceiling of the class. Sorry that I didn't really complete that thought earlier but it was mostly a response to like a 3 month old post talking about them being shitty weapons, not shitty for the game.[/quote]
xd
rip
fuck proofreading nerd essays after I typed them I guess
rip
fuck proofreading nerd essays after I typed them I guess
do people still think the booties are overpowered?
do people still think the booties are overpowered?
eeeShow me where I did :)))
eeeBooties don't create a shift in the demoman class the way the gunboats do. They're not game-changing, and that's strike 1. Strike 2 is they're overpowered. 3 is they're less skill indexed and lower the skill ceiling of the class.
its okay m8 if you don't think they are overpowered then just say you don't think they are overpowered instead of denying something you said just say that you no longer think that and that you don't remember saying that.
[quote=eee]
Show me where I did :)))[/quote]
[quote=eee]
Booties don't create a shift in the demoman class the way the gunboats do. They're not game-changing, and that's strike 1. Strike 2 is they're overpowered. 3 is they're less skill indexed and lower the skill ceiling of the class.[/quote]
its okay m8 if you don't think they are overpowered then just say you don't think they are overpowered instead of denying something you said just say that you no longer think that and that you don't remember saying that.
Starkiedo people still think the booties are overpowered?
no
[quote=Starkie]do people still think the booties are overpowered?[/quote]
no
sheepy_dogs_handeeeShow me where I did :)))
eeeBooties don't create a shift in the demoman class the way the gunboats do. They're not game-changing, and that's strike 1. Strike 2 is they're overpowered. 3 is they're less skill indexed and lower the skill ceiling of the class.
its okay m8 if you don't think they are overpowered then just say you don't think they are overpowered instead of denying something you said just say that you no longer think that and that you don't remember saying that.
I don't think they're overpowered sorry :)
They're better than stock for mid fights because of the speed boost and buff advantage but there's a trade off everywhere else. I think they're a terribly designed weapon tho and people comparing them to the gunboats don't understand why the gunboats actually work.
[quote=sheepy_dogs_hand][quote=eee]
Show me where I did :)))[/quote]
[quote=eee]
Booties don't create a shift in the demoman class the way the gunboats do. They're not game-changing, and that's strike 1. Strike 2 is they're overpowered. 3 is they're less skill indexed and lower the skill ceiling of the class.[/quote]
its okay m8 if you don't think they are overpowered then just say you don't think they are overpowered instead of denying something you said just say that you no longer think that and that you don't remember saying that.[/quote]
I don't think they're overpowered sorry :)
They're better than stock for mid fights because of the speed boost and buff advantage but there's a trade off everywhere else. I think they're a terribly designed weapon tho and people comparing them to the gunboats don't understand why the gunboats actually work.
The main points being continuously overlooked in this thread are:
1. If one team runs it, the other must run it (flashbacks to Quick-Fix LAN) especially to middles.
2. It rewards you for doing what you were already doing so does not introduce anything interesting into the game. Wee Booties demos don't play a different style, they're just a dumbed down, tankier, and more slippery version of what they were before.
The item should be nerfed to the point where the decision to run booties is more stylistic rather than mandatory (such as pistol vs winger). In my opinion, this would be as simple as removing the speed boost, because then the survivability of demomen running it would depend more on good movement, sticky placement, positioning and anticipation rather than just running/jumping away. Unfortunately we don't have much control over whether a weapon gets nerfed, so banning it is probably the best choice for now.
The main points being continuously overlooked in this thread are:
1. If one team runs it, the other must run it (flashbacks to Quick-Fix LAN) especially to middles.
2. It rewards you for doing what you were already doing so does not introduce anything interesting into the game. Wee Booties demos don't play a different style, they're just a dumbed down, tankier, and more slippery version of what they were before.
The item should be nerfed to the point where the decision to run booties is more stylistic rather than mandatory (such as pistol vs winger). In my opinion, this would be as simple as removing the speed boost, because then the survivability of demomen running it would depend more on good movement, sticky placement, positioning and anticipation rather than just running/jumping away. Unfortunately we don't have much control over whether a weapon gets nerfed, so banning it is probably the best choice for now.
I think the original positions of most of the posters in this thread, myself included, aren't arguing that booties are overpowered its just that they need tweaking. If you've been watching ESEA playoffs at all you'll have seen how often they'be been run and the impact it has on demo survivability.
I honestly think a lot of the euro posters here just don't understand the impact booties have because none of your demos know how to run them properly outside of kaidus, and even this his style doesn't really match a lot of the current NA demo meta which makes them so effective.
Also you guys have quickiebomb unbanned so I think a weapon has to be insta killing people across the map at this point for you to consider it broken.
I think the original positions of most of the posters in this thread, myself included, aren't arguing that booties are overpowered its just that they need tweaking. If you've been watching ESEA playoffs at all you'll have seen how often they'be been run and the impact it has on demo survivability.
I honestly think a lot of the euro posters here just don't understand the impact booties have because none of your demos know how to run them properly outside of kaidus, and even this his style doesn't really match a lot of the current NA demo meta which makes them so effective.
Also you guys have quickiebomb unbanned so I think a weapon has to be insta killing people across the map at this point for you to consider it broken.
Do valve actually tweak weapons anymore? I don't recall last time they cared. I'm really skeptical about MM changing any of that, even if the MM/TF2 team is 'hard at work' with their fancy dx9 stuff.
Do valve actually tweak weapons anymore? I don't recall last time they cared. I'm really skeptical about MM changing any of that, even if the MM/TF2 team is 'hard at work' with their fancy dx9 stuff.
They do pretty substantial balance changes to dozens of weapons every operation/update. They just never do little things on small updates anymore.
They do pretty substantial balance changes to dozens of weapons every operation/update. They just never do little things on small updates anymore.
b4nnyThe main points being continuously overlooked in this thread are:
1. If one team runs it, the other must run it (flashbacks to Quick-Fix LAN) especially to middles.
2. It rewards you for doing what you were already doing so does not introduce anything interesting into the game. Wee Booties demos don't play a different style, they're just a dumbed down, tankier, and more slippery version of what they were before.
The item should be nerfed to the point where the decision to run booties is more stylistic rather than mandatory (such as pistol vs winger). In my opinion, this would be as simple as removing the speed boost, because then the survivability of demomen running it would depend more on good movement, sticky placement, positioning and anticipation rather than just running/jumping away. Unfortunately we don't have much control over whether a weapon gets nerfed, so banning it is probably the best choice for now.
It might just be me only playing in europe but me and I think most other prem euro players have never really seen it as a big deal. I've only ever seen it used in certain situations and very rarely seen it used full time and if so it's never been a big problem. It doesn't introduce anything interesting in the game but it allows demoman to make more of an impact in certain situations. I really don't think it needs to be banned especially considering it's a weapon for demoman. He has been nerfed recently and I don't think this weapon makes him so strong it needs a ban. I think we should at least give it some more time before banning it.
[quote=b4nny]The main points being continuously overlooked in this thread are:
1. If one team runs it, the other must run it (flashbacks to Quick-Fix LAN) especially to middles.
2. It rewards you for doing what you were already doing so does not introduce anything interesting into the game. Wee Booties demos don't play a different style, they're just a dumbed down, tankier, and more slippery version of what they were before.
The item should be nerfed to the point where the decision to run booties is more stylistic rather than mandatory (such as pistol vs winger). In my opinion, this would be as simple as removing the speed boost, because then the survivability of demomen running it would depend more on good movement, sticky placement, positioning and anticipation rather than just running/jumping away. Unfortunately we don't have much control over whether a weapon gets nerfed, so banning it is probably the best choice for now.[/quote]
It might just be me only playing in europe but me and I think most other prem euro players have never really seen it as a big deal. I've only ever seen it used in certain situations and very rarely seen it used full time and if so it's never been a big problem. It doesn't introduce anything interesting in the game but it allows demoman to make more of an impact in certain situations. I really don't think it needs to be banned especially considering it's a weapon for demoman. He has been nerfed recently and I don't think this weapon makes him so strong it needs a ban. I think we should at least give it some more time before banning it.
Booties are a great team-weapon in a sense that you are much vulnerable alone (no pipes to defend yourself and probably always have less stickies prepared) but in a teamfight, you are hard to pick off and if you can survive the initial attack, your teammates may be able to finish off the attackers instead.
So just focus pretty much anyone else except the demo and you'll win vs booties. Without his pipes he is just a soldier; tanky, but not much damage to dish out. Unlike a heavy which should be focused down immediately, demo's dps is actually pretty low if he has to reload his every shot and shoot them offensively (so the sticky nerf comes to play). Demo's anti-air capabilities is also weakened a lot, so bombing the medic gets easier. If the demo is alone, then facerushing him as a scout is very effective, as 2 stickies don't kill you (unless extremely well placed or placed beforehand as a trap)
Being a demo with pipes in mid fights, don't try to weaken the booties demo, but instead try to look chip their scouts or sticky carpet your own playground so roamers have a harder time dealing with you. Trying to chip off a 300hp demo isn't going to pay off. Force the demo to come close (for example in badlands mid on top of the point) before you call your team to focus him off. If it's a mexican standoff you'll pretty much win by default because you got pipes (hopefully you hit at least one direct)
Using booties is very useful if enemy team is focusing you hard, your pipe aim is off for some reason or you really want to win a midfight with the combination of quickiebomb launcher. I have to agree that the concept of booties is flawed (giving you just flat out survivability in exchange of something skillful like pipes), but it's certainly not OP and just gives you another style to play with. Loose cannon for extremely pussy playing, booties for the semi-passive play where you take lot of the heals and pipes for aggressive play where you try to out-duel your opponents. And as long as you think (or Valve thinks) scout is a fine class and shouldn't be nerfed, passive demo is going to rule. Or just buff stickies again, I wouldn't mind that.
I'll try to answer any questions you might have, probably more in the demoman's point of view though.
Booties are a great team-weapon in a sense that you are much vulnerable alone (no pipes to defend yourself and probably always have less stickies prepared) but in a teamfight, you are hard to pick off and if you can survive the initial attack, your teammates may be able to finish off the attackers instead.
So just focus pretty much anyone else except the demo and you'll win vs booties. Without his pipes he is just a soldier; tanky, but not much damage to dish out. Unlike a heavy which should be focused down immediately, demo's dps is actually pretty low if he has to reload his every shot and shoot them offensively (so the sticky nerf comes to play). Demo's anti-air capabilities is also weakened a lot, so bombing the medic gets easier. If the demo is alone, then facerushing him as a scout is very effective, as 2 stickies don't kill you (unless extremely well placed or placed beforehand as a trap)
Being a demo with pipes in mid fights, don't try to weaken the booties demo, but instead try to look chip their scouts or sticky carpet your own playground so roamers have a harder time dealing with you. Trying to chip off a 300hp demo isn't going to pay off. Force the demo to come close (for example in badlands mid on top of the point) before you call your team to focus him off. If it's a mexican standoff you'll pretty much win by default because you got pipes (hopefully you hit at least one direct)
Using booties is very useful if enemy team is focusing you hard, your pipe aim is off for some reason or you really want to win a midfight with the combination of quickiebomb launcher. I have to agree that the concept of booties is flawed (giving you just flat out survivability in exchange of something skillful like pipes), but it's certainly not OP and just gives you another style to play with. Loose cannon for extremely pussy playing, booties for the semi-passive play where you take lot of the heals and pipes for aggressive play where you try to out-duel your opponents. And as long as you think (or Valve thinks) scout is a fine class and shouldn't be nerfed, passive demo is going to rule. Or just buff stickies again, I wouldn't mind that.
I'll try to answer any questions you might have, probably more in the demoman's point of view though.
sheepy_dogs_handb4nnyThe main points being continuously overlooked in this thread are:
1. If one team runs it, the other must run it (flashbacks to Quick-Fix LAN) especially to middles.
2. It rewards you for doing what you were already doing so does not introduce anything interesting into the game. Wee Booties demos don't play a different style, they're just a dumbed down, tankier, and more slippery version of what they were before.
The item should be nerfed to the point where the decision to run booties is more stylistic rather than mandatory (such as pistol vs winger). In my opinion, this would be as simple as removing the speed boost, because then the survivability of demomen running it would depend more on good movement, sticky placement, positioning and anticipation rather than just running/jumping away. Unfortunately we don't have much control over whether a weapon gets nerfed, so banning it is probably the best choice for now.
It might just be me only playing in europe but me and I think most other prem euro players have never really seen it as a big deal. I've only ever seen it used in certain situations and very rarely seen it used full time and if so it's never been a big problem. It doesn't introduce anything interesting in the game but it allows demoman to make more of an impact in certain situations. I really don't think it needs to be banned especially considering it's a weapon for demoman. He has been nerfed recently and I don't think this weapon makes him so strong it needs a ban. I think we should at least give it some more time before banning it.
I mean you literally just ignored all of b4nny's points and didn't refute them with a single piece of evidence or reasoning.
You just said, "I don't think they're that great because no one that i play with/against has yet figure out how to use it."
[quote=sheepy_dogs_hand][quote=b4nny]The main points being continuously overlooked in this thread are:
1. If one team runs it, the other must run it (flashbacks to Quick-Fix LAN) especially to middles.
2. It rewards you for doing what you were already doing so does not introduce anything interesting into the game. Wee Booties demos don't play a different style, they're just a dumbed down, tankier, and more slippery version of what they were before.
The item should be nerfed to the point where the decision to run booties is more stylistic rather than mandatory (such as pistol vs winger). In my opinion, this would be as simple as removing the speed boost, because then the survivability of demomen running it would depend more on good movement, sticky placement, positioning and anticipation rather than just running/jumping away. Unfortunately we don't have much control over whether a weapon gets nerfed, so banning it is probably the best choice for now.[/quote]
It might just be me only playing in europe but me and I think most other prem euro players have never really seen it as a big deal. I've only ever seen it used in certain situations and very rarely seen it used full time and if so it's never been a big problem. It doesn't introduce anything interesting in the game but it allows demoman to make more of an impact in certain situations. I really don't think it needs to be banned especially considering it's a weapon for demoman. He has been nerfed recently and I don't think this weapon makes him so strong it needs a ban. I think we should at least give it some more time before banning it.[/quote]
I mean you literally just ignored all of b4nny's points and didn't refute them with a single piece of evidence or reasoning.
You just said, "I don't think they're that great because no one that i play with/against has yet figure out how to use it."
SetletBooties are a great team-weapon in a sense that you are much vulnerable alone (no pipes to defend yourself and probably always have less stickies prepared) but in a teamfight, you are hard to pick off and if you can survive the initial attack, your teammates may be able to finish off the attackers instead.
So just focus pretty much anyone else except the demo and you'll win vs booties. Without his pipes he is just a soldier; tanky, but not much damage to dish out. Unlike a heavy which should be focused down immediately, demo's dps is actually pretty low if he has to reload his every shot and shoot them offensively (so the sticky nerf comes to play). Demo's anti-air capabilities is also weakened a lot, so bombing the medic gets easier. If the demo is alone, then facerushing him as a scout is very effective, as 2 stickies don't kill you (unless extremely well placed or placed beforehand as a trap)
Being a demo with pipes in mid fights, don't try to weaken the booties demo, but instead try to look chip their scouts or sticky carpet your own playground so roamers have a harder time dealing with you. Trying to chip off a 300hp demo isn't going to pay off. Force the demo to come close (for example in badlands mid on top of the point) before you call your team to focus him off. If it's a mexican standoff you'll pretty much win by default because you got pipes (hopefully you hit at least one direct)
Using booties is very useful if enemy team is focusing you hard, your pipe aim is off for some reason or you really want to win a midfight with the combination of quickiebomb launcher. I have to agree that the concept of booties is flawed (giving you just flat out survivability in exchange of something skillful like pipes), but it's certainly not OP and just gives you another style to play with. Loose cannon for extremely pussy playing, booties for the semi-passive play where you take lot of the heals and pipes for aggressive play where you try to out-duel your opponents. And as long as you think (or Valve thinks) scout is a fine class and shouldn't be nerfed, passive demo is going to rule. Or just buff stickies again, I wouldn't mind that.
I'll try to answer any questions you might have, probably more in the demoman's point of view though.
Your reasoning is decent except it ignores two things for mid fights:
1. A demo with booties should always get there faster and with more health than a non booties one.
2. If the opposing demo doesn't try to put damage on him then if the other demo is smart he can just walk forward and shoot like 2-3 sticks and kill him/put him out of the fight then surf any damage.
b4nny's points still stand and if the other demo knows how to use them then he should always have the upper hand in mid fights over demos that dont know how to use them. Forcing both to run it.
[quote=Setlet]Booties are a great team-weapon in a sense that you are much vulnerable alone (no pipes to defend yourself and probably always have less stickies prepared) but in a teamfight, you are hard to pick off and if you can survive the initial attack, your teammates may be able to finish off the attackers instead.
So just focus pretty much anyone else except the demo and you'll win vs booties. Without his pipes he is just a soldier; tanky, but not much damage to dish out. Unlike a heavy which should be focused down immediately, demo's dps is actually pretty low if he has to reload his every shot and shoot them offensively (so the sticky nerf comes to play). Demo's anti-air capabilities is also weakened a lot, so bombing the medic gets easier. If the demo is alone, then facerushing him as a scout is very effective, as 2 stickies don't kill you (unless extremely well placed or placed beforehand as a trap)
Being a demo with pipes in mid fights, don't try to weaken the booties demo, but instead try to look chip their scouts or sticky carpet your own playground so roamers have a harder time dealing with you. Trying to chip off a 300hp demo isn't going to pay off. Force the demo to come close (for example in badlands mid on top of the point) before you call your team to focus him off. If it's a mexican standoff you'll pretty much win by default because you got pipes (hopefully you hit at least one direct)
Using booties is very useful if enemy team is focusing you hard, your pipe aim is off for some reason or you really want to win a midfight with the combination of quickiebomb launcher. I have to agree that the concept of booties is flawed (giving you just flat out survivability in exchange of something skillful like pipes), but it's certainly not OP and just gives you another style to play with. Loose cannon for extremely pussy playing, booties for the semi-passive play where you take lot of the heals and pipes for aggressive play where you try to out-duel your opponents. And as long as you think (or Valve thinks) scout is a fine class and shouldn't be nerfed, passive demo is going to rule. Or just buff stickies again, I wouldn't mind that.
I'll try to answer any questions you might have, probably more in the demoman's point of view though.[/quote]
Your reasoning is decent except it ignores two things for mid fights:
1. A demo with booties should always get there faster and with more health than a non booties one.
2. If the opposing demo doesn't try to put damage on him then if the other demo is smart he can just walk forward and shoot like 2-3 sticks and kill him/put him out of the fight then surf any damage.
b4nny's points still stand and if the other demo knows how to use them then he should always have the upper hand in mid fights over demos that dont know how to use them. Forcing both to run it.
Avast
I mean you literally just ignored all of b4nny's points and didn't refute them with a single piece of evidence or reasoning.
You just said, "I don't think they're that great because no one that i play with/against has yet figure out how to use it."
I think I did refute some of his points but it was a general reply I don't have to counter every single one of his points I was just posting my opinion. Also it's not like people in Europe don't use it at all or don't know how to play with it. There are other good demomen in Europe than kaidus and they do use it, just not as much as americans because they don't see it as stong of a weapon. The only real point I was refuting was him saying we should ban the weapon, I don't think we should ban the weapon yet.
[quote=Avast]
I mean you literally just ignored all of b4nny's points and didn't refute them with a single piece of evidence or reasoning.
You just said, "I don't think they're that great because no one that i play with/against has yet figure out how to use it."[/quote]
I think I did refute some of his points but it was a general reply I don't have to counter every single one of his points I was just posting my opinion. Also it's not like people in Europe don't use it at all or don't know how to play with it. There are other good demomen in Europe than kaidus and they do use it, just not as much as americans because they don't see it as stong of a weapon. The only real point I was refuting was him saying we should ban the weapon, I don't think we should ban the weapon yet.
sheepy_dogs_handAvast
I mean you literally just ignored all of b4nny's points and didn't refute them with a single piece of evidence or reasoning.
You just said, "I don't think they're that great because no one that i play with/against has yet figure out how to use it."
I think I did refute some of his points but it was a general reply I don't have to counter every single one of his points I was just posting my opinion. Also it's not like people in Europe don't use it at all or don't know how to play with it. There are other good demomen in Europe than kaidus and they do use it, just not as much as americans because they don't see it as stong of a weapon. The only real point I was refuting was him saying we should ban the weapon, I don't think we should ban the weapon yet.
I agree with you in that it shouldn't be banned. I'm merely arguing that in its current state its simply better than the all the other demo unlocks and certainly changes the way the game is played to be forced to revolve around it.
Also I don't think there arent good eu demos. They just don't know how to use the booties.
[quote=sheepy_dogs_hand][quote=Avast]
I mean you literally just ignored all of b4nny's points and didn't refute them with a single piece of evidence or reasoning.
You just said, "I don't think they're that great because no one that i play with/against has yet figure out how to use it."[/quote]
I think I did refute some of his points but it was a general reply I don't have to counter every single one of his points I was just posting my opinion. Also it's not like people in Europe don't use it at all or don't know how to play with it. There are other good demomen in Europe than kaidus and they do use it, just not as much as americans because they don't see it as stong of a weapon. The only real point I was refuting was him saying we should ban the weapon, I don't think we should ban the weapon yet.[/quote]
I agree with you in that it shouldn't be banned. I'm merely arguing that in its current state its simply better than the all the other demo unlocks and certainly changes the way the game is played to be forced to revolve around it.
Also I don't think there arent good eu demos. They just don't know how to use the booties.
AvastAlso I don't think there arent good eu demos. They just don't know how to use the booties.
It's not a complicated weapon. Demomen who are at the top of prem won't take that long to learn how to basically use it. I just think they decide to use it less because they prefer pipes. I don't know why you responded so hostile I am allowed to reply to people without refuting every single thing they say.
[quote=Avast]
Also I don't think there arent good eu demos. They just don't know how to use the booties.[/quote]
It's not a complicated weapon. Demomen who are at the top of prem won't take that long to learn how to basically use it. I just think they decide to use it less because they prefer pipes. I don't know why you responded so hostile I am allowed to reply to people without refuting every single thing they say.
Here's my general philosophy: if you believe something is broken, abuse it until a change is made. If you truly believe the booties are OP, abuse it. If you think that the quick fix is OP, abuse it. By abusing it, you force people to recognize the issue and force a change. If people recognize that people are using a new unlock but a change isn't made, then maybe the weapon isn't OP but just preference (in the same way that people don't think that the stock rocket launcher is OP).
Here's my general philosophy: if you believe something is broken, abuse it until a change is made. If you truly believe the booties are OP, abuse it. If you think that the quick fix is OP, abuse it. By abusing it, you force people to recognize the issue and force a change. If people recognize that people are using a new unlock but a change isn't made, then maybe the weapon isn't OP but just preference (in the same way that people don't think that the stock rocket launcher is OP).
Avast
Your reasoning is decent except it ignores two things for mid fights:
1. A demo with booties should always get there faster and with more health than a non booties one.
2. If the opposing demo doesn't try to put damage on him then if the other demo is smart he can just walk forward and shoot like 2-3 sticks and kill him/put him out of the fight then surf any damage.
b4nny's points still stand and if the other demo knows how to use them then he should always have the upper hand in mid fights over demos that dont know how to use them. Forcing both to run it.
I don't really think you get to mid that much faster. It would be hard for me to test that though as I'm usually faster than any other demo anyway (egoistic much hehe) so I'll leave that for now. On how many maps do you get more than +25 hp though? I think lot of the maps offer you enough health packs so you get full hp regardless. That 25hp difference is also a reason I said you shouldn't try to trade stickies with each other, as you are in a disadvantage.
I don't know what map you are talking about in your second argument, but if we talk Badlands then getting on top of point is suicidal for the booties demo if you just call it to your team asap. Not even booties can save you if you play full yolo. You gotta hope your surfing skill is on point then...
I should also add that my post is independent and I haven't read many of other peoples' posts here. I didn't read b4nnys argument yet so I'll do it if needed for future responses.
[quote=Avast]
Your reasoning is decent except it ignores two things for mid fights:
1. A demo with booties should always get there faster and with more health than a non booties one.
2. If the opposing demo doesn't try to put damage on him then if the other demo is smart he can just walk forward and shoot like 2-3 sticks and kill him/put him out of the fight then surf any damage.
b4nny's points still stand and if the other demo knows how to use them then he should always have the upper hand in mid fights over demos that dont know how to use them. Forcing both to run it.[/quote]
I don't really think you get to mid that much faster. It would be hard for me to test that though as I'm usually faster than any other demo anyway (egoistic much hehe) so I'll leave that for now. On how many maps do you get more than +25 hp though? I think lot of the maps offer you enough health packs so you get full hp regardless. That 25hp difference is also a reason I said you shouldn't try to trade stickies with each other, as you are in a disadvantage.
I don't know what map you are talking about in your second argument, but if we talk Badlands then getting on top of point is suicidal for the booties demo if you just call it to your team asap. Not even booties can save you if you play full yolo. You gotta hope your surfing skill is on point then...
I should also add that my post is independent and I haven't read many of other peoples' posts here. I didn't read b4nnys argument yet so I'll do it if needed for future responses.
SetletAvast
Your reasoning is decent except it ignores two things for mid fights:
1. A demo with booties should always get there faster and with more health than a non booties one.
2. If the opposing demo doesn't try to put damage on him then if the other demo is smart he can just walk forward and shoot like 2-3 sticks and kill him/put him out of the fight then surf any damage.
b4nny's points still stand and if the other demo knows how to use them then he should always have the upper hand in mid fights over demos that dont know how to use them. Forcing both to run it.
I don't really think you get to mid that much faster. It would be hard for me to test that though as I'm usually faster than any other demo anyway (egoistic much hehe) so I'll leave that for now. On how many maps do you get more than +25 hp though? I think lot of the maps offer you enough health packs so you get full hp regardless. That 25hp difference is also a reason I said you shouldn't try to trade stickies with each other, as you are in a disadvantage.
I don't know what map you are talking about in your second argument, but if we talk Badlands then getting on top of point is suicidal for the booties demo if you just call it to your team asap. Not even booties can save you if you play full yolo. You gotta hope your surfing skill is on point then...
I should also add that my post is independent and I haven't read many of other peoples' posts here. I didn't read b4nnys argument yet so I'll do it if needed for future responses.
Two things:
It's obvious you haven't played against a booties demo much because you get to mid faster on every map with booties and significantly faster on maps with longer rollouts like granary/metalworks.
In addition its simplistic to look at it for midfights as only +25 hp because of the extra overbuff you also receive. Which means that you can do extra jumps while having faster walking speed and get to mid significantly faster than the other demo while having the same health once you arrive.
[quote=Setlet][quote=Avast]
Your reasoning is decent except it ignores two things for mid fights:
1. A demo with booties should always get there faster and with more health than a non booties one.
2. If the opposing demo doesn't try to put damage on him then if the other demo is smart he can just walk forward and shoot like 2-3 sticks and kill him/put him out of the fight then surf any damage.
b4nny's points still stand and if the other demo knows how to use them then he should always have the upper hand in mid fights over demos that dont know how to use them. Forcing both to run it.[/quote]
I don't really think you get to mid that much faster. It would be hard for me to test that though as I'm usually faster than any other demo anyway (egoistic much hehe) so I'll leave that for now. On how many maps do you get more than +25 hp though? I think lot of the maps offer you enough health packs so you get full hp regardless. That 25hp difference is also a reason I said you shouldn't try to trade stickies with each other, as you are in a disadvantage.
I don't know what map you are talking about in your second argument, but if we talk Badlands then getting on top of point is suicidal for the booties demo if you just call it to your team asap. Not even booties can save you if you play full yolo. You gotta hope your surfing skill is on point then...
I should also add that my post is independent and I haven't read many of other peoples' posts here. I didn't read b4nnys argument yet so I'll do it if needed for future responses.[/quote]
Two things:
It's obvious you haven't played against a booties demo much because you get to mid faster on every map with booties and significantly faster on maps with longer rollouts like granary/metalworks.
In addition its simplistic to look at it for midfights as only +25 hp because of the extra overbuff you also receive. Which means that you can do extra jumps while having faster walking speed and get to mid significantly faster than the other demo while having the same health once you arrive.
Would simply removing the speed bonus be a satisfactory tweak for the booties?
I feel like in regards to nerfing or tweaking the booties you have to keep in mind they were created and buffed later with the intention of being used in conjunction with the demoknight set up to increase that playstyle's survivability because of his incredibly short range. I don't believe Valve would undermine the style of demoman it was created for in order to cater to a more vanilla style demoman.
Valve has pulled some wacky tweaks out of their hat before but I can't think of much they could do.
Would simply removing the speed bonus be a satisfactory tweak for the booties?
I feel like in regards to nerfing or tweaking the booties you have to keep in mind they were created and buffed later with the intention of being used in conjunction with the demoknight set up to increase that playstyle's survivability because of his incredibly short range. I don't believe Valve would undermine the style of demoman it was created for in order to cater to a more vanilla style demoman.
Valve has pulled some wacky tweaks out of their hat before but I can't think of much they could do.
Plenty of silly things u could do with the booties that help both types of Demo
+Charge speed for stickies and shields
+longer overheal decay (zatoichi gives overheal now too i think)
+extra healing
-knockback
all of these provide clear advantages for combowhore demos but are also useful for demoknights
Plenty of silly things u could do with the booties that help both types of Demo
+Charge speed for stickies and shields
+longer overheal decay (zatoichi gives overheal now too i think)
+extra healing
-knockback
all of these provide clear advantages for combowhore demos but are also useful for demoknights
booties are really annoying to play against as romer or scout but imo the only seriously overpowered thing about them is their synergy with quickiebomb
1) you dont need pipes with quickiebomb because theyre so ridiculously easy in close range 1v1s that no scout of equivalent skill can get near you
2) booties improve your survivability because you can dodge so much more shit and +25 hp
3) the lack of traps is minimised by the fact that traps are kind iffy with booties anyway because you can't spam anything if you have a trap up
4) the lack of pipe spam/extra stickies is completely outweighed by the extra dps at long range (because stickies charge up WAY faster and ramp up damage with charge, meaning you can be more accurate as well as putting out more damage per sticky, and more stickies per second)
5) when pushing badlands last you can literally negate the termo spot completely killing their stickies before they can det them (!!!) and basically have a huge advantage when playing point, you can also use this ability to protect your medic or whatever from a demo bomb or shield your scouts capping granary second and a BUNCH of stupid shit
booties are really annoying to play against as romer or scout but imo the only seriously overpowered thing about them is their synergy with quickiebomb
1) you dont need pipes with quickiebomb because theyre so ridiculously easy in close range 1v1s that no scout of equivalent skill can get near you
2) booties improve your survivability because you can dodge so much more shit and +25 hp
3) the lack of traps is minimised by the fact that traps are kind iffy with booties anyway because you can't spam anything if you have a trap up
4) the lack of pipe spam/extra stickies is completely outweighed by the extra dps at long range (because stickies charge up WAY faster and ramp up damage with charge, meaning you can be more accurate as well as putting out more damage per sticky, and more stickies per second)
5) when pushing badlands last you can literally negate the termo spot completely killing their stickies before they can det them (!!!) and basically have a huge advantage when playing point, you can also use this ability to protect your medic or whatever from a demo bomb or shield your scouts capping granary second and a BUNCH of stupid shit
PendjiDo valve actually tweak weapons anymore? I don't recall last time they cared. I'm really skeptical about MM changing any of that, even if the MM/TF2 team is 'hard at work' with their fancy dx9 stuff.
Valve has stated that one of their big aims with matchmaking is to get some useful data to do some actual weapon tweaking. There's no point in them tweaking weapons now unless they're blatantly broken when the MM release is coming soon and they'll have actual data to use to decide how to tweak them.
[quote=Pendji]Do valve actually tweak weapons anymore? I don't recall last time they cared. I'm really skeptical about MM changing any of that, even if the MM/TF2 team is 'hard at work' with their fancy dx9 stuff.[/quote]
Valve has stated that one of their big aims with matchmaking is to get some useful data to do some actual weapon tweaking. There's no point in them tweaking weapons now unless they're blatantly broken when the MM release is coming soon and they'll have actual data to use to decide how to tweak them.
its easy to not think highly of the booties when you aren't playing against muma, bdonski, hassassin, and duwatna every scrim. :/ it makes them the tankiest class by far on mids, it almost seems like a waste to even shoot at them. I like the idea of alternative weapons and its not like booties are breaking the game but it does change the feel of the game in a way that I don't personally like.
I really like the dynamic of demo being the highest potential dps'r while also being relatively squishy. but with booties it takes out his more aim intensive primary and replaces it with just the ability to stay alive. just not interesting to me and my personal view of the game (which could easily differ from consensus).
and I do think that on mids like granary the demo that doesn't run booties is at a decent disadvantage (just from listening to top demos complain about it)
its easy to not think highly of the booties when you aren't playing against muma, bdonski, hassassin, and duwatna every scrim. :/ it makes them the tankiest class by far on mids, it almost seems like a waste to even shoot at them. I like the idea of alternative weapons and its not like booties are breaking the game but it does change the feel of the game in a way that I don't personally like.
I really like the dynamic of demo being the highest potential dps'r while also being relatively squishy. but with booties it takes out his more aim intensive primary and replaces it with just the ability to stay alive. just not interesting to me and my personal view of the game (which could easily differ from consensus).
and I do think that on mids like granary the demo that doesn't run booties is at a decent disadvantage (just from listening to top demos complain about it)
A very slight nerf could be making the speed bonus apply only when melee is out. This would make the player have to be a bit busier with weapon switches to utilize the speed if they weren't using the booties to be a demoknight. In many ways though it wouldn't change much during non-fighting moments and would be like counterstrike (run faster with knife out).
A very slight nerf could be making the speed bonus apply only when melee is out. This would make the player have to be a bit busier with weapon switches to utilize the speed if they weren't using the booties to be a demoknight. In many ways though it wouldn't change much during non-fighting moments and would be like counterstrike (run faster with knife out).