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how to ban items
1
#1
-3 Frags +

http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Weapons

Staple

The items in the staple category are items that represent the baseline of the class, not only in the stock game, but in terms of what is expected in current competitive gameplay. Staples should be considered always allowed, and should be used when deciding an item's category.

* [all stock items]
* Boston Basher
* Gunboats
* Escape Plan
* Axtinguisher
* Kritzkrieg
* Ubersaw

Preference

The items in the preference category are items that can be swapped with the class' baseline items without a noticeable change in gameplay. Most items in this category are a simple swap of stats. Preferences should be considered always allowed, or limiting the class itself if an item feels too powerful.

SCOUT
* Force-a-Nature
* Shortstop
* Winger
* Candy Cane
* Sun-on-a-Stick
* Fan O'War

SOLDIER
* Direct Hit
* Rocket Jumper
* Liberty Launcher
* Buff Banner
* Mantreads
* Righteous Bison
* Equalizer
* Pain Train
* Half-Zatoichi
* Market Gardener

PYRO
* Backburner
* Degreaser
* Flare Gun
* Manmelter
* Scorch Shot
* Homewrecker
* Back Scratcher
* Sharpened Volcano Fragment
* Third Degree
* Neon Annhilator

DEMOMAN
* Loose Cannon
* Scottish Resistance
* Sticky Jumper
* Eyelander
* Scotsman's Skullcutter
* Claidheamh Mor

HEAVY
* Brass Beast
* Tomislav
* Family Business
* Killing Gloves of Boxing
* Warrior's Spirit
* Eviction Notice

ENGINEER
* Southern Hospitality
* Jag

MEDIC
* Blutsauger
* Amputator

SNIPER
* Huntsman
* Bazaar Bargain
* Razorback
* Tribalman's Shiv
* Shahanshah

SPY
* Ambassador
* L'Etranger
* Your Eternal Reward
* Conniver's Kunai
* Big Earner
* Spy-cicle
* Cloak and Dagger
* Dead Ringer
* Red-Tape Recorder

Dynamic

The items in the dynamic category are items that add a significant new quality to the class. I have broken these qualities up into categories despite some spanning across multiple. Dynamics should be considered potentially banned, and banned on a class->category basis, such as no mobility items for Heavy.

RANGE
* Flying Guillotine
* Wrap Assassin
* Cow Mangler 5000
* Crusader's Crossbow
* Diamondback

MOBILITY
* Soda Popper
* Baby Face's Blaster
* Atomizer
* Concheror
* Disciplinary Action
* Detonator
* Powerjack
* Buffalo Steak Sandvich
* Gloves of Running Urgently
* Rescue Ranger
* Gunslinger
* Eureka Effect
* Overdose

HEALTH
* Pretty Boy's Pocket Pistol
* Ali Baba's Wee Booties

DAMAGE REDUCTION
* Bonk! Atomic Punch
* Battalion's Backup
* Chargin' Targe
* Splendid Screen
* Fists of Steel
* Vaccinator
* Darwin's Danger Shield

DAMAGE
* Crit-a-Cola
* Beggar's Bazooka
* Reserve Shooter
* Phlogstinator
* Loch-n-Load
* Ullapool Caber
* Huo-Long Heater
* Frontier Justice
* Widowmaker
* Wrangler
* Sydney Sleeper
* Machina
* Hitman's Heatmaker
* Jarate
* Bushwacka
* Enforcer

HEALING
* Mad Milk
* Persian Persuader
* Sandvich
* Dalokohs Bar
* Quick-Fix
* Cozy Camper

Broken

The items in the broken category are items that simply remove an element of gameplay that otherwise requires skill. This currently includes movement, aiming, health management, and uber management. Brokens should be considered always banned, potentially the only ones consistent across all gameplay formats.

* Sandman
* Natascha
* Holiday Punch
* Pomson 6000
* Short Circuit
* Vita-Saw
* Solemn Vow

Proposal

Now that I have categorized the items, we can start off with a simplified selection of items.
Unbanned: Staple, Preference
Unknown: Dynamic
Banned: Broken

The next step would of course be to sort out the Dynamic category into items that should be unbanned and items that should be banned. The goal of the subcategories of Dynamic was to simplify this process even further. To reiterate, the subcategories are Range/Mobility, Health/Damage Reduction, Damage, and Healing.

Starting with Range/Mobility, items in these categories can greatly increase the viability or versatility of a class, such as how frequent a scenario is in which the class is more relevant. I would allow Medic to have access to these categories, with Pyro being the first in line for debate. It would make Pyro able to be played in more situations, but the question you need to ask yourself is whether or not that is something desired. Classes that are defined to be limited by one of these categories, such as Scout, Heavy, Engineer, and Spy should hardly be considered at all.

Now that I have explained the general decision making behind each category, Health/Damage Reduction and Damage can be tackled all at once with a simple "no" across the board. All of these qualities are something that players in an FPS game practice to master (movement & aim), so to allow them to get a boost with an item seems a bit silly. This is different from the broken category in that you are increasing your own quality rather than decreasing someone else's, which is why it is even up for consideration. Medic is allowed damage reduction due to it being a supporting role.

Finally, we come to Healing. Healing is a quality that is, in the stock game, unique to the Medic, and thus defining in such a way. For the Medic itself, I would consider healing to be close to damage, and thus not allow the Medic to have access to healing items.

Formal List

This brings me to a point where I can list out all the items that should be banned as is currently standard.

* Ali Baba's Wee Booties
* Atomizer
* Baby Face's Blaster
* Battalion's Backup
* Beggar's Bazooka
* Bonk! Atomic Punch
* Buffalo Steak Sandvich
* Bushwacka
* Chargin' Targe
* Concheror
* Cow Mangler 5000
* Cozy Camper
* Crit-a-Cola
* Dalokohs Bar
* Darwin's Danger Shield
* Diamondback
* Disciplinary Action
* Enforcer
* Eureka Effect
* Fists of Steel
* Flying Guillotine
* Frontier Justice
* Gloves of Running Urgently
* Gunslinger
* Hitman's Heatmaker
* Holiday Punch
* Huo-Long Heater
* Jarate
* Loch-n-Load
* Machina
* Mad Milk
* Natascha
* Persian Persuader
* Phlogstinator
* Pomson 6000
* Pretty Boy's Pocket Pistol
* Quick-Fix
* Rescue Ranger
* Reserve Shooter
* Sandman
* Sandvich
* Short Circuit
* Soda Popper
* Solemn Vow
* Splendid Screen
* Sydney Sleeper
* Ullapool Caber
* Vita-Saw
* Widowmaker
* Wrangler
* Wrap Assassin

And to compare it to the ban list used in the previous season of ESEA, we have these differences:

UNBANNED
* Liberty Launcher
* Rainblower
* Powerjack
* Brass Beast
* Tomislav
* Southern Hospitality
* Spy-cicle

BANNED
* Ali Baba's Wee Booties
* Chargin' Targe
* Concheror
* Cozy Camper
* Diamondback
* Holiday Punch
* Splendid Screen

Liberty Launcher, Powerjack, and Tomislav have been changed since their initial banning and in my opinion no longer warrant a ban. Brass Beast, Southern Hospitality, and Spy-cicle do add to the class but all very subtly and are not broken in any way. Rainblower was only banned due to enabling Pyrovision and that could be addressed with a simple blanket ban on Pyrovision-granting items.

The Concheror, Cozy Camper, and Diamondback were updated since ESEA's ban list. The Concheror gives a movement speed buff now, which could be used to accelerate Heavies the same way the Disciplinary Action did. The Diamondback increases the Spy's viable range, but this is easily debatable. Finally, the Cozy Camper now hurts the opposing team's ability to spam a sniper out of position as it grants healing. Ali Baba's Wee Booties, Chargin' Targe, and Splendid Screen all violate the Health/Damage Reduction and Damage categories ban imposed on every class except Medic for the moment. As for the Holiday Punch, it removes the target's ability to control their player.

http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Weapons

[b]Staple[/b]

The items in the staple category are items that represent the baseline of the class, not only in the stock game, but in terms of what is expected in current competitive gameplay. Staples should be considered [u]always allowed[/u], and should be used when deciding an item's category.

[quote]
* [all stock items]
* Boston Basher
* Gunboats
* Escape Plan
* Axtinguisher
* Kritzkrieg
* Ubersaw
[/quote]

[b]Preference[/b]

The items in the preference category are items that can be swapped with the class' baseline items without a noticeable change in gameplay. Most items in this category are a simple swap of stats. Preferences should be considered [u]always allowed[/u], or limiting the class itself if an item feels too powerful.

[quote]
SCOUT
* Force-a-Nature
* Shortstop
* Winger
* Candy Cane
* Sun-on-a-Stick
* Fan O'War

SOLDIER
* Direct Hit
* Rocket Jumper
* Liberty Launcher
* Buff Banner
* Mantreads
* Righteous Bison
* Equalizer
* Pain Train
* Half-Zatoichi
* Market Gardener

PYRO
* Backburner
* Degreaser
* Flare Gun
* Manmelter
* Scorch Shot
* Homewrecker
* Back Scratcher
* Sharpened Volcano Fragment
* Third Degree
* Neon Annhilator

DEMOMAN
* Loose Cannon
* Scottish Resistance
* Sticky Jumper
* Eyelander
* Scotsman's Skullcutter
* Claidheamh Mor

HEAVY
* Brass Beast
* Tomislav
* Family Business
* Killing Gloves of Boxing
* Warrior's Spirit
* Eviction Notice

ENGINEER
* Southern Hospitality
* Jag

MEDIC
* Blutsauger
* Amputator

SNIPER
* Huntsman
* Bazaar Bargain
* Razorback
* Tribalman's Shiv
* Shahanshah

SPY
* Ambassador
* L'Etranger
* Your Eternal Reward
* Conniver's Kunai
* Big Earner
* Spy-cicle
* Cloak and Dagger
* Dead Ringer
* Red-Tape Recorder
[/quote]

[b]Dynamic[/b]

The items in the dynamic category are items that add a significant new quality to the class. I have broken these qualities up into categories despite some spanning across multiple. Dynamics should be considered [u]potentially banned[/u], and banned on a class->category basis, such as no mobility items for Heavy.

[quote]
RANGE
* Flying Guillotine
* Wrap Assassin
* Cow Mangler 5000
* Crusader's Crossbow
* Diamondback

MOBILITY
* Soda Popper
* Baby Face's Blaster
* Atomizer
* Concheror
* Disciplinary Action
* Detonator
* Powerjack
* Buffalo Steak Sandvich
* Gloves of Running Urgently
* Rescue Ranger
* Gunslinger
* Eureka Effect
* Overdose

HEALTH
* Pretty Boy's Pocket Pistol
* Ali Baba's Wee Booties

DAMAGE REDUCTION
* Bonk! Atomic Punch
* Battalion's Backup
* Chargin' Targe
* Splendid Screen
* Fists of Steel
* Vaccinator
* Darwin's Danger Shield

DAMAGE
* Crit-a-Cola
* Beggar's Bazooka
* Reserve Shooter
* Phlogstinator
* Loch-n-Load
* Ullapool Caber
* Huo-Long Heater
* Frontier Justice
* Widowmaker
* Wrangler
* Sydney Sleeper
* Machina
* Hitman's Heatmaker
* Jarate
* Bushwacka
* Enforcer

HEALING
* Mad Milk
* Persian Persuader
* Sandvich
* Dalokohs Bar
* Quick-Fix
* Cozy Camper
[/quote]

[b]Broken[/b]

The items in the broken category are items that simply remove an element of gameplay that otherwise requires skill. This currently includes movement, aiming, health management, and uber management. Brokens should be considered [u]always banned[/u], potentially the only ones consistent across all gameplay formats.

[quote]
* Sandman
* Natascha
* Holiday Punch
* Pomson 6000
* Short Circuit
* Vita-Saw
* Solemn Vow
[/quote]

[b]Proposal[/b]

Now that I have categorized the items, we can start off with a simplified selection of items.
Unbanned: Staple, Preference
Unknown: Dynamic
Banned: Broken

The next step would of course be to sort out the Dynamic category into items that should be unbanned and items that should be banned. The goal of the subcategories of Dynamic was to simplify this process even further. To reiterate, the subcategories are Range/Mobility, Health/Damage Reduction, Damage, and Healing.

Starting with Range/Mobility, items in these categories can greatly increase the viability or versatility of a class, such as how frequent a scenario is in which the class is more relevant. I would allow Medic to have access to these categories, with Pyro being the first in line for debate. It would make Pyro able to be played in more situations, but the question you need to ask yourself is whether or not that is something desired. Classes that are defined to be limited by one of these categories, such as Scout, Heavy, Engineer, and Spy should hardly be considered at all.

Now that I have explained the general decision making behind each category, Health/Damage Reduction and Damage can be tackled all at once with a simple "no" across the board. All of these qualities are something that players in an FPS game practice to master (movement & aim), so to allow them to get a boost with an item seems a bit silly. This is different from the broken category in that you are increasing your own quality rather than decreasing someone else's, which is why it is even up for consideration. Medic is allowed damage reduction due to it being a supporting role.

Finally, we come to Healing. Healing is a quality that is, in the stock game, unique to the Medic, and thus defining in such a way. For the Medic itself, I would consider healing to be close to damage, and thus not allow the Medic to have access to healing items.

[b]Formal List[/b]

This brings me to a point where I can list out all the items that should be banned as is currently standard.

[quote]
* Ali Baba's Wee Booties
* Atomizer
* Baby Face's Blaster
* Battalion's Backup
* Beggar's Bazooka
* Bonk! Atomic Punch
* Buffalo Steak Sandvich
* Bushwacka
* Chargin' Targe
* Concheror
* Cow Mangler 5000
* Cozy Camper
* Crit-a-Cola
* Dalokohs Bar
* Darwin's Danger Shield
* Diamondback
* Disciplinary Action
* Enforcer
* Eureka Effect
* Fists of Steel
* Flying Guillotine
* Frontier Justice
* Gloves of Running Urgently
* Gunslinger
* Hitman's Heatmaker
* Holiday Punch
* Huo-Long Heater
* Jarate
* Loch-n-Load
* Machina
* Mad Milk
* Natascha
* Persian Persuader
* Phlogstinator
* Pomson 6000
* Pretty Boy's Pocket Pistol
* Quick-Fix
* Rescue Ranger
* Reserve Shooter
* Sandman
* Sandvich
* Short Circuit
* Soda Popper
* Solemn Vow
* Splendid Screen
* Sydney Sleeper
* Ullapool Caber
* Vita-Saw
* Widowmaker
* Wrangler
* Wrap Assassin
[/quote]

And to compare it to the ban list used in the previous season of ESEA, we have these differences:

[quote]
UNBANNED
* Liberty Launcher
* Rainblower
* Powerjack
* Brass Beast
* Tomislav
* Southern Hospitality
* Spy-cicle

BANNED
* Ali Baba's Wee Booties
* Chargin' Targe
* Concheror
* Cozy Camper
* Diamondback
* Holiday Punch
* Splendid Screen
[/quote]

Liberty Launcher, Powerjack, and Tomislav have been changed since their initial banning and in my opinion no longer warrant a ban. Brass Beast, Southern Hospitality, and Spy-cicle do add to the class but all very subtly and are not broken in any way. Rainblower was only banned due to enabling Pyrovision and that could be addressed with a simple blanket ban on Pyrovision-granting items.

The Concheror, Cozy Camper, and Diamondback were updated since ESEA's ban list. The Concheror gives a movement speed buff now, which could be used to accelerate Heavies the same way the Disciplinary Action did. The Diamondback increases the Spy's viable range, but this is easily debatable. Finally, the Cozy Camper now hurts the opposing team's ability to spam a sniper out of position as it grants healing. Ali Baba's Wee Booties, Chargin' Targe, and Splendid Screen all violate the Health/Damage Reduction and Damage categories ban imposed on every class except Medic for the moment. As for the Holiday Punch, it removes the target's ability to control their player.
2
#2
8 Frags +

that is a very large post

that is a very large post
3
#3
0 Frags +
Waldothat is a very large post

sorry i just copypasted it

[quote=Waldo]that is a very large post[/quote]

sorry i just copypasted it
4
#4
12 Frags +

woah holiday punch has been unbanned? someone is getting tickled

woah holiday punch has been unbanned? someone is getting tickled
5
#5
9 Frags +
kevwoah holiday punch has been unbanned? someone is getting tickled

If someone can pull off a tickle heavy uber stall, they deserve it.

[quote=kev]woah holiday punch has been unbanned? someone is getting tickled[/quote]
If someone can pull off a tickle heavy uber stall, they deserve it.
6
#6
0 Frags +

So the healing from the cozy camper is very minimal and you take amplified damage. The actual benefit is the steady aim while taking chip damage.

So the healing from the cozy camper is very minimal and you take amplified damage. The actual benefit is the steady aim while taking chip damage.
7
#7
-9 Frags +

The powerjack needs to remain banned. A pyro with that much mobility changes the meta in a way that leads to more reflecting, more movement disabling, and more uber denial.

The powerjack needs to remain banned. A pyro with that much mobility changes the meta in a way that leads to more reflecting, more movement disabling, and more uber denial.
8
#8
6 Frags +
smoboThe powerjack needs to remain banned. A pyro with that much mobility changes the meta in a way that leads to more reflecting, more movement disabling, and more uber denial.

pyro is always going to be crippled by his short effective range, scouts can just focus pyro and heckle him with distance.

[quote=smobo]The powerjack needs to remain banned. A pyro with that much mobility changes the meta in a way that leads to more reflecting, more movement disabling, and more uber denial.[/quote]
pyro is always going to be crippled by his short effective range, scouts can just focus pyro and heckle him with distance.
9
#9
-1 Frags +

Would anyone even use most of the items that were picked/banned? If we already have the staples, why would allowing anything other than those change anything, If people will always use the best choice?

Would anyone even use most of the items that were picked/banned? If we already have the staples, why would allowing anything other than those change anything, If people will always use the best choice?
10
#10
2 Frags +

stopped reading after...

* [all stock items]
* Boston Basher
* Gunboats
* Escape Plan
* Axtinguisher
* Kritzkrieg
* Ubersaw
stopped reading after...
[quote]
* [all stock items]
* Boston Basher
* Gunboats
* Escape Plan
[b]*[size=16] Axtinguisher[/size][/b]
* Kritzkrieg
* Ubersaw[/quote]
11
#11
0 Frags +
EvaderWould anyone even use most of the items that were picked/banned? If we already have the staples, why would allowing anything other than those change anything, If people will always use the best choice?

Well some of these would be preference choices, staples don't necessarily mean they're better. Also, the idea is not to ban things that aren't as good because no one uses them anyway, it's to ban things that are too good/gamechanging/"broken".

I like the idea presented because it gives some logic and consistency to the banlist rather than an arbitrary decision each time a weapon is introduced or changed.

[quote=Evader]Would anyone even use most of the items that were picked/banned? If we already have the staples, why would allowing anything other than those change anything, If people will always use the best choice?[/quote]

Well some of these would be preference choices, staples don't necessarily mean they're better. Also, the idea is not to ban things that aren't as good because no one uses them anyway, it's to ban things that are too good/gamechanging/"broken".

I like the idea presented because it gives some logic and consistency to the banlist rather than an arbitrary decision each time a weapon is introduced or changed.
12
#12
4 Frags +

This is very broad view how to look at items, it's banning based on some basic rules without considering deeper meaning of the item. It's also weirdly inconsistent. You propose banning Loch'n'Load just because "damage" but not Direct hit, why isn't Black Box in "healing"? Soldier is designed as slow moving class with ability to rocketjump in exchange for health, why is Escape Plan considered ok? Doesn't it negate one of the of designed drawbacks of class?

Before anyone jumps at me, no - I wouldn't want to ban Escape Plan, that's not the point.

This is very broad view how to look at items, it's banning based on some basic rules without considering deeper meaning of the item. It's also weirdly inconsistent. You propose banning Loch'n'Load just because "damage" but not Direct hit, why isn't Black Box in "healing"? Soldier is designed as slow moving class with ability to rocketjump in exchange for health, why is Escape Plan considered ok? Doesn't it negate one of the of designed drawbacks of class?

Before anyone jumps at me, no - I wouldn't want to ban Escape Plan, that's not the point.
13
#13
3 Frags +
pharaoh__stopped reading after...* Axtinguisher

I noticed that but tbh I gave it the benefit of the doubt because it's not very bad without the degreaser. I gave up at rocket jumper though.

[quote=pharaoh__]stopped reading after...
[quote]
[b]*[size=16] Axtinguisher[/size][/b][/quote][/quote]
I noticed that but tbh I gave it the benefit of the doubt because it's not very bad without the degreaser. I gave up at rocket jumper though.
14
#14
0 Frags +

im testing out the cozy camper in UGC gold atm, will tell you results after the season.
opinion so far: scouts pyros and heavys arent a nuisance anymore; direct hit 2 shots across the map, 180 damage headshots hurt a lot,demos slay you

im testing out the cozy camper in UGC gold atm, will tell you results after the season.
opinion so far: scouts pyros and heavys arent a nuisance anymore; direct hit 2 shots across the map, 180 damage headshots hurt a lot,demos slay you
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