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I got high-ass frametime. How do I reduce it?
posted in Q/A Help
31
#31
-4 Frags +
_flacgetting a job rn sucks, but if having a computer able to run TF2 somewhat smoothly is really important, it might be worth it. you dont even need a whole lot of PC to get some stable frame rates. having a "desktop" (non T or U) intel processor, dedicated GPU, and an SSD will make a huge difference over most low-med range laptops in my experience. sites like eBay and Craigslist can have some crazy deals, if youre knowledgeable and patient. Ive made a secondary PC with very similar specs as below for less than $200 by finding deals on my local Craigslist.
heres what a 10 mins of googling got me:

HP EliteDesk 800 : i5-4590, 1x4GB RAM, no HDD - $90
A-Tech 4GB DDR3 1600 MHz - $19 (new)
PNY CS900 240GB 3D NAND 2.5" SSD - $30 (new)
MSI Graphic Cards GT 1030 2G LP OC -$115 (new)

Totaling $254 for just the PC

144hz monitors can be got new for around 150-180 on the cheaper end. i dont feel like looking into that rn.
if you are seriously interested in getting something like this setup, i can run a few benchmarks on my secondary PC that has similar specs as above to get you a better idea into what youll get.

i know its not as easy as saying "just save up and buy a PC", but its probably not as hard as you think.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-EliteDesk-800-G1-SFF-Desktop-PC-3-30GHz-Core-i5-4590-4GB-RAM-No-HDD/294030998897
https://www.ebay.com/itm/A-Tech-4GB-PC3-12800-Desktop-DDR3-1600-MHz-240-Pin-DIMM-Non-ECC-Memory-RAM-1x-4G/321872623322
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0719D9YL7
https://www.amazon.com/MSI-GT-1030-2G-LP/dp/B071L4VKF6

Oh I know how to save some cash. The real problem is that I have no motivation to get a job to begin with due to the long process of job application, chance of contracts being shitty, and companies just being shitty in general; this is especially clear in retail jobs.

_flacalso, huge frame time spikes are somewhat normal for a full tf2 server. anything from someone joining your casual queue, multiple ppl joining the server at once, alt-tabbing/shift-tabbing, or even just a cpu/gpu hiccup usually causes these occasional large spikes. my frame times are MUCH better (lower, and more stable) in a 6v6 or even 9v9 server

Understandable.

_flacIm also curious how you measured your "high input latency"...

graphs from my R5 2600, RX 580, 16GB PC
using chris' high fps and dx 81:
https://imgur.com/a/kq8gPRl

CapFrameX happens to also record the input latency while recording so that's nice, though I will probably have to test that independently. Keep in mind though that our environments may be different from each other.

I use the development version of mastercomfig low with some funny mods, Particle Limitation Pack preset 1, and No Hats Mod (bgum).

turbochad69AimIsADick
  1. I specifically stated frametime and not frames per second (FPS), because FPS is generally an unreliable metric the moment you have ≥30 frames![1][2]
fps and average frametime refer to quite literally the exact same metric. diving (1) second by your frames per second will directly give you the average frametime over that second (eg. 1 second / 144 fps = 6.9 ms frametime).

There is a difference between the two though; frametime states how long it takes to render a single frame. This is useful because it can tell the client if they have a bottleneck somewhere, need some stability or a frame cap, or just need to reduce the details, or whatever the solution is. Meanwhile frames per second merely state how many frames can be generated in a second, which can only tell the client if they are getting enough frames, and that means the client can miss out on tons of information crucial to proper optimization and it's extremely misleading if you get more than enough frames per second consistently.

P.S I did make one change to my OS: I changed my DNS provider to OpenDNS. Is this a good idea? Are there better options?

[quote=_flac]getting a job rn sucks, but if having a computer able to run TF2 somewhat smoothly is really important, it might be worth it. you dont even need a whole lot of PC to get some stable frame rates. having a "desktop" (non T or U) intel processor, dedicated GPU, and an SSD will make a huge difference over most low-med range laptops in my experience. sites like eBay and Craigslist can have some crazy deals, if youre knowledgeable and patient. Ive made a secondary PC with very similar specs as below for less than $200 by finding deals on my local Craigslist.
heres what a 10 mins of googling got me:

HP EliteDesk 800 : i5-4590, 1x4GB RAM, no HDD - $90
A-Tech 4GB DDR3 1600 MHz - $19 (new)
PNY CS900 240GB 3D NAND 2.5" SSD - $30 (new)
MSI Graphic Cards GT 1030 2G LP OC -$115 (new)

Totaling $254 for just the PC

144hz monitors can be got new for around 150-180 on the cheaper end. i dont feel like looking into that rn.
if you are seriously interested in getting something like this setup, i can run a few benchmarks on my secondary PC that has similar specs as above to get you a better idea into what youll get.

i know its not as easy as saying "just save up and buy a PC", but its probably not as hard as you think.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-EliteDesk-800-G1-SFF-Desktop-PC-3-30GHz-Core-i5-4590-4GB-RAM-No-HDD/294030998897
https://www.ebay.com/itm/A-Tech-4GB-PC3-12800-Desktop-DDR3-1600-MHz-240-Pin-DIMM-Non-ECC-Memory-RAM-1x-4G/321872623322
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0719D9YL7?tag=teamfortresst-20
https://www.amazon.com/MSI-GT-1030-2G-LP/dp/B071L4VKF6?tag=teamfortresst-20[/quote]

Oh I know how to save some cash. The real problem is that I have no motivation to get a job to begin with due to the long process of job application, chance of contracts being shitty, and companies just being shitty in general; this is especially clear in retail jobs.

[quote=_flac]also, huge frame time spikes are somewhat normal for a full tf2 server. anything from someone joining your casual queue, multiple ppl joining the server at once, alt-tabbing/shift-tabbing, or even just a cpu/gpu hiccup usually causes these occasional large spikes. my frame times are MUCH better (lower, and more stable) in a 6v6 or even 9v9 server[/quote]

Understandable.

[quote=_flac]Im also curious how you measured your "high input latency"...

graphs from my R5 2600, RX 580, 16GB PC
using chris' high fps and dx 81:
https://imgur.com/a/kq8gPRl[/quote]

[url=https://github.com/CXWorld/CapFrameX/releases]CapFrameX[/url] happens to also record the input latency while recording so that's nice, though I will probably have to test that independently. Keep in mind though that our environments may be different from each other.

I use the [i]development version[/i] of mastercomfig low [url=https://github.com/WhyIsEvery4thYearAlwaysBad/420weedsmoker69/tree/mastercoms]with some funny mods[/url], [url=https://www.teamfortress.tv/22586/particle-limitation-pack]Particle Limitation Pack preset 1[/url], and [url=https://github.com/Fedora31/no-hats-bgum]No Hats Mod (bgum)[/url].

[quote=turbochad69][quote=AimIsADick][olist]
[*] I specifically stated [i]frametime[/i] and not [i]frames per second[/i] (FPS), because FPS is generally an unreliable metric the moment you have ≥30 frames![url=https://techreport.com/review/31546/where-minimum-fps-figures-mislead-frame-time-analysis-shines/][1][/url][url=https://www.pcgamer.com/why-minimum-fps-can-be-misleading/][2][/url]
[/olist][/quote]
fps and average frametime refer to quite literally the exact same metric. diving (1) [u]second[/u] by your frames [u]per second[/u] will directly give you the average frametime over that second (eg. 1 second / 144 fps = 6.9 ms frametime).[/quote]

There is a difference between the two though; frametime states how [i]long it takes to render a single frame[/i]. This is useful because it can tell the client if they have a bottleneck somewhere, need some stability or a frame cap, or just need to reduce the details, or whatever the solution is. Meanwhile frames per second merely state how [i]many frames can be generated in a second[/i], which can only tell the client if they are getting enough frames, and that means the client can miss out on tons of information crucial to proper optimization [i]and[/i] it's extremely misleading if you get more than enough frames per second consistently.

P.S I did make one change to my OS: I changed my DNS provider to OpenDNS. Is this a good idea? Are there better options?
32
#32
2 Frags +
AimIsADickThere is a difference between the two though; frametime states how long it takes to render a single frame. This is useful because it can tell the client if they have a bottleneck somewhere, need some stability or a frame cap, or just need to reduce the details, or whatever the solution is. Meanwhile frames per second merely state how many frames can be generated in a second, which can only tell the client if they are getting enough frames, and that means the client can miss out on tons of information crucial to proper optimization and it's extremely misleading if you get more than enough frames per second consistently.

P.S I did make one change to my OS: I changed my DNS provider to OpenDNS. Is this a good idea? Are there better options?

I mean, if you measure fps at the same resolution (every frame) that you're talking about, you will see the exact same variations. It really is the same metric.

Why are you mentioning DNS here?

[quote=AimIsADick]
There is a difference between the two though; frametime states how [i]long it takes to render a single frame[/i]. This is useful because it can tell the client if they have a bottleneck somewhere, need some stability or a frame cap, or just need to reduce the details, or whatever the solution is. Meanwhile frames per second merely state how [i]many frames can be generated in a second[/i], which can only tell the client if they are getting enough frames, and that means the client can miss out on tons of information crucial to proper optimization [i]and[/i] it's extremely misleading if you get more than enough frames per second consistently.

P.S I did make one change to my OS: I changed my DNS provider to OpenDNS. Is this a good idea? Are there better options?[/quote]
I mean, if you measure fps at the same resolution (every frame) that you're talking about, you will see the exact same variations. It really is the same metric.

Why are you mentioning DNS here?
33
#33
-4 Frags +
turbochad69AimIsADickThere is a difference between the two though; frametime states how long it takes to render a single frame. This is useful because it can tell the client if they have a bottleneck somewhere, need some stability or a frame cap, or just need to reduce the details, or whatever the solution is. Meanwhile frames per second merely state how many frames can be generated in a second, which can only tell the client if they are getting enough frames, and that means the client can miss out on tons of information crucial to proper optimization and it's extremely misleading if you get more than enough frames per second consistently.

P.S I did make one change to my OS: I changed my DNS provider to OpenDNS. Is this a good idea? Are there better options?
I mean, if you measure fps at the same resolution (every frame) that you're talking about, you will see the exact same variations

Elaborate? I don't understand

turbochad69It really is the same metric.

They have the same metric type (time); that doesn't mean they are the same.

turbochad69Why are you mentioning DNS here?

I should have elaborated that point more. I often have choke lag which is quite annoying. Today I changed the DNS server I'd was using from Comcast (gross ik) to OpenDNS and I then felt less choke lag and more responsive; needs empirical testing of course. Anyway I have no idea why I mentioned that as that is irrelevant to reducing frame times.

[quote=turbochad69][quote=AimIsADick]
There is a difference between the two though; frametime states how [i]long it takes to render a single frame[/i]. This is useful because it can tell the client if they have a bottleneck somewhere, need some stability or a frame cap, or just need to reduce the details, or whatever the solution is. Meanwhile frames per second merely state how [i]many frames can be generated in a second[/i], which can only tell the client if they are getting enough frames, and that means the client can miss out on tons of information crucial to proper optimization [i]and[/i] it's extremely misleading if you get more than enough frames per second consistently.

P.S I did make one change to my OS: I changed my DNS provider to OpenDNS. Is this a good idea? Are there better options?[/quote]
I mean, if you measure fps at the same resolution (every frame) that you're talking about, you will see the exact same variations[/quote]

Elaborate? I don't understand

[quote=turbochad69]It really is the same metric.[/quote]

They have the same metric [i]type[/i] (time); that doesn't mean they are the same.

[quote=turbochad69]Why are you mentioning DNS here?[/quote]

I should have elaborated that point more. I often have choke lag which is quite annoying. Today I changed the DNS server I'd was using from Comcast (gross ik) to OpenDNS and I then felt less choke lag and more responsive; needs empirical testing of course. Anyway I have no idea why I mentioned that as that is irrelevant to reducing frame times.
34
#34
4 Frags +

@micwoj92 help this guy out

@micwoj92 help this guy out
35
#35
27 Frags +

FIRST: INSTALL OPENBSD BECAUSE WINDOWS 10 IS GARBAGE EDWARD SNOWDEN SAID THEY SPY ON YOU THROUGH THE NSA, THEO DE RAADT DOES NOT. HE'S JUST KIND OF AN ASSHOLE BUT IT'S WHATEVER

SECOND: GOOD ON YOU BROTHER DON'T FALL FOR THE WAGECUCK MEME . GO DUMPSTER DIVING FOR A NEW PC. OR ASK YOUR PARENTS IT SEEMS LIKE YOU'RE LIKE 16 ANYWAY LOL

THIRD: AFTER YOU HAVE DONE STEP FIRST AND STEP SECOND, YOUR FRAMETIMES WILL IMPROVE BECAUSE
1) YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO RUN STEAM, MUCH LESS TF2
2) YOU WILL STOP WASTING YOUR TIME ON POINTLESS THINGS LIKE VIDEO GAMES AND INSTEAD PURSUE HIGHER INTELLECTUAL FORMS OF ENTERTAINMENT, LIKE PROGRAMMING AND BEING RACIST ON TF.TV

FIRST: INSTALL OPENBSD BECAUSE WINDOWS 10 IS GARBAGE EDWARD SNOWDEN SAID THEY SPY ON YOU THROUGH THE NSA, THEO DE RAADT DOES NOT. HE'S JUST KIND OF AN ASSHOLE BUT IT'S WHATEVER

SECOND: GOOD ON YOU BROTHER DON'T FALL FOR THE WAGECUCK MEME . GO DUMPSTER DIVING FOR A NEW PC. OR ASK YOUR PARENTS IT SEEMS LIKE YOU'RE LIKE 16 ANYWAY LOL

THIRD: AFTER YOU HAVE DONE STEP FIRST AND STEP SECOND, YOUR FRAMETIMES WILL IMPROVE BECAUSE
1) YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO RUN STEAM, MUCH LESS TF2
2) YOU WILL STOP WASTING YOUR TIME ON POINTLESS THINGS LIKE VIDEO GAMES AND INSTEAD PURSUE HIGHER INTELLECTUAL FORMS OF ENTERTAINMENT, LIKE PROGRAMMING AND BEING RACIST ON TF.TV
36
#36
32 Frags +

Hey guys. Here's the dilemma.

Right now, I'm working with a totally badass ThinkPad x230[1]. I'm using Arch[2] (that I installed myself[3]). My WM is a tiled i3[4] config, it's pretty slick.

Now, I've been watching a lot of b4nny[5] recently and I've been getting the itch to game. However, I also watch a lot of Luke Smith[6] videos on his PeerTube[7][8] and realized I should be using more free software[9] (free as in libre, not beer[10]). So, since taking the aforementioned picture of my battlestation[1], I have decided to switch from Arch to Parabola GNU/Linux-libre[11] and librebooted[12] my ThinkPad x230[1].

Now, since I still have the itch to game, my question to all of you is if there is a freedom-respecting[9] binary or distribution of Steam[13] to use, and one of the same classification for Team Fortress 2[14]? I would love to play Team Fortress 2[14] but I need to make sure I am doing it ethically[15].

Thanks!

[h]Hey guys. Here's the dilemma.[/h]

Right now, I'm working with a totally badass ThinkPad x230[url=https://i.redd.it/1fyd4dztxtx31.jpg][1][/url]. I'm using Arch[url=https://archlinux.org/][2][/url] (that I installed myself[url=https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Installation_guide][3][/url]). My WM is a tiled i3[url=https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/i3][4][/url] config, it's pretty slick.

Now, I've been watching a lot of b4nny[url=https://www.twitch.tv/b4nny][5][/url] recently and I've been getting the itch to game. However, I also watch a lot of Luke Smith[url=https://lukesmith.xyz/][6][/url] videos on his PeerTube[url=https://videos.lukesmith.xyz/][7][/url][url=https://joinpeertube.org/][8][/url] and realized I should be using more free software[url=https://www.fsf.org/about/what-is-free-software][9][/url] (free as in libre, not beer[url=https://rms.sexy/][10][/url]). So, since taking the aforementioned picture of my battlestation[url=https://i.redd.it/1fyd4dztxtx31.jpg][1][/url], I have decided to switch from Arch to Parabola GNU/Linux-libre[url=https://www.parabola.nu/][11][/url] and librebooted[url=https://libreboot.org/][12][/url] my ThinkPad x230[url=https://i.redd.it/1fyd4dztxtx31.jpg][1][/url].

Now, since I still have the itch to game, my question to all of you is if there is a freedom-respecting[url=https://www.fsf.org/about/what-is-free-software][9][/url] binary or distribution of Steam[url=https://steamcommunity.com/][13][/url] to use, and one of the same classification for Team Fortress 2[url=https://www.teamfortress.com/][14][/url]? I would love to play Team Fortress 2[url=https://www.teamfortress.com/][14][/url] but I need to make sure I am doing it ethically[url=https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/09/richard-stallman-leaves-mit-after-controversial-remarks-on-rape/][15][/url].

[h]Thanks![/h]
37
#37
6 Frags +

jesus christ just stop browsing 4chan and get a job it really isn't that bad holy shit

jesus christ just stop browsing 4chan and get a job it really isn't that bad holy shit
38
#38
-5 Frags +
ghadillijesus christ just stop browsing 4chan and get a job it really isn't that bad holy shit

I guess working itself isn't that bad; after all I can see myself getting used to it. My problem though is that the job application process still feels like a pain to me, I don't have a driver's permit or license, and I have high school to deal with as well (in junior year currently so maybe one more year for me to deal with).

[quote=ghadilli]jesus christ just stop browsing 4chan and get a job it really isn't that bad holy shit[/quote]

I guess working [i]itself[/i] isn't that bad; after all I can see myself getting used to it. My problem though is that the job application process still feels like a pain to me, I don't have a driver's permit or license, and I have high school to deal with as well (in junior year currently so maybe one more year for me to deal with).
39
#39
5 Frags +

if you want to work very few hours w/ school obligation and just make enough money to cover a pc (because you definitely aren't paying rent), consider tutoring

hell you could prolly find some rich parents who want someone to teach their kids to code since you seem to like that kind of stuff

if you want to work very few hours w/ school obligation and just make enough money to cover a pc (because you definitely aren't paying rent), consider tutoring

hell you could prolly find some rich parents who want someone to teach their kids to code since you seem to like that kind of stuff
40
#40
1 Frags +
AimIsADickCapFrameX happens to also record the input latency while recording so that's nice, though I will probably have to test that independently. Keep in mind though that our environments may be different from each other.

I wouldnt trust CapFrameX too much when it comes to measuring input latency. It makes a ton of assumptions. If you want to accurately measure your input latency, youll need external hardware to do that. There are plenty of videos on youtube if thats something youre serious about.

Also, frame time and frame rate are essentially the same measurement, except frame time graphs make stuttering more obvious.

[quote=AimIsADick]CapFrameX happens to also record the input latency while recording so that's nice, though I will probably have to test that independently. Keep in mind though that our environments may be different from each other. [/quote]
I wouldnt trust CapFrameX too much when it comes to measuring input latency. It makes a ton of assumptions. If you want to accurately measure your input latency, youll need external hardware to do that. There are plenty of videos on youtube if thats something youre serious about.

Also, frame time and frame rate are essentially the same measurement, except frame time graphs make stuttering more obvious.
41
#41
0 Frags +

this might be an incredibly obvious point and I'm not a tech genius or anything but have you checked for dust buildup inside your laptop, as well as fan curves and stuff like that

I feel like if your frame time is way worse than your frame rate then thermals are prolly the main factor right?

this might be an incredibly obvious point and I'm not a tech genius or anything but have you checked for dust buildup inside your laptop, as well as fan curves and stuff like that

I feel like if your frame time is way worse than your frame rate then thermals are prolly the main factor right?
42
#42
0 Frags +
mustardoverlordthis might be an incredibly obvious point and I'm not a tech genius or anything but have you checked for dust buildup inside your laptop, as well as fan curves and stuff like that

I feel like if your frame time is way worse than your frame rate then thermals are prolly the main factor right?

Im pretty sure dust build up would lead to thermal throttling, which would just lower all frame times. I dont think thermals cause most stuttering, but I could be wrong...

[quote=mustardoverlord]this might be an incredibly obvious point and I'm not a tech genius or anything but have you checked for dust buildup inside your laptop, as well as fan curves and stuff like that

I feel like if your frame time is way worse than your frame rate then thermals are prolly the main factor right?[/quote]

Im pretty sure dust build up would lead to thermal throttling, which would just lower all frame times. I dont think thermals cause most stuttering, but I could be wrong...
43
#43
2 Frags +

just pray you've got good internet and play this game through geforce now at this point lmao

just pray you've got good internet and play this game through geforce now at this point lmao
44
#44
-1 Frags +
_flacmustardoverlordthis might be an incredibly obvious point and I'm not a tech genius or anything but have you checked for dust buildup inside your laptop, as well as fan curves and stuff like that

I feel like if your frame time is way worse than your frame rate then thermals are prolly the main factor right?

Im pretty sure dust build up would lead to thermal throttling, which would just lower all frame times. I dont think thermals cause most stuttering, but I could be wrong...

I'm sure you're right, you're talking to a guy who had to clear cmos with a screwdriver like 1 hour into using his new pc earlier today

[quote=_flac][quote=mustardoverlord]this might be an incredibly obvious point and I'm not a tech genius or anything but have you checked for dust buildup inside your laptop, as well as fan curves and stuff like that

I feel like if your frame time is way worse than your frame rate then thermals are prolly the main factor right?[/quote]

Im pretty sure dust build up would lead to thermal throttling, which would just lower all frame times. I dont think thermals cause most stuttering, but I could be wrong...[/quote]

I'm sure you're right, you're talking to a guy who had to clear cmos with a screwdriver like 1 hour into using his new pc earlier today
45
#45
-3 Frags +
mustardoverlord_flacmustardoverlordthis might be an incredibly obvious point and I'm not a tech genius or anything but have you checked for dust buildup inside your laptop, as well as fan curves and stuff like that

I feel like if your frame time is way worse than your frame rate then thermals are prolly the main factor right?

Im pretty sure dust build up would lead to thermal throttling, which would just lower all frame times. I dont think thermals cause most stuttering, but I could be wrong...

I'm sure you're right, you're talking to a guy who had to clear cmos with a screwdriver like 1 hour into using his new pc earlier today

I was going to unscrew it for hardware errors and dust, but I couldn't find a screwdriver for it, and it turns out that you need to be an adult to use compressed air (or at least in Tennessee anyway).

[quote=mustardoverlord][quote=_flac][quote=mustardoverlord]this might be an incredibly obvious point and I'm not a tech genius or anything but have you checked for dust buildup inside your laptop, as well as fan curves and stuff like that

I feel like if your frame time is way worse than your frame rate then thermals are prolly the main factor right?[/quote]

Im pretty sure dust build up would lead to thermal throttling, which would just lower all frame times. I dont think thermals cause most stuttering, but I could be wrong...[/quote]

I'm sure you're right, you're talking to a guy who had to clear cmos with a screwdriver like 1 hour into using his new pc earlier today[/quote]

I was going to unscrew it for hardware errors and dust, but I couldn't find a screwdriver for it, and it turns out that you need to be an adult to use compressed air (or at least in Tennessee anyway).
46
#46
newbie.tf
2 Frags +
AimIsADickit turns out that you need to be an adult to use compressed air (or at least in Tennessee anyway).

as a lifelong tennesseean that was the local familial/friend tech support

i broke this law a lot apparently

[quote=AimIsADick]it turns out that you need to be an adult to use compressed air (or at least in Tennessee anyway).[/quote]

as a lifelong tennesseean that was the local familial/friend tech support

i broke this law a lot apparently
47
#47
3 Frags +

tf u saying u probably suck with and without it

tf u saying u probably suck with and without it
48
#48
-3 Frags +
KevinIsPwnAimIsADickit turns out that you need to be an adult to use compressed air (or at least in Tennessee anyway).
as a lifelong tennesseean that was the local familial/friend tech support

i broke this law a lot apparently

lol

Thanks for the suggestions guys. I can't seem to change my fan with MSI Afterburner though…

[quote=KevinIsPwn][quote=AimIsADick]it turns out that you need to be an adult to use compressed air (or at least in Tennessee anyway).[/quote]

as a lifelong tennesseean that was the local familial/friend tech support

i broke this law a lot apparently[/quote]

lol

Thanks for the suggestions guys. I can't seem to change my fan with MSI Afterburner though…
1 2
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