Guys what makes you think edifice will cause less upsets than gravelpit?

We don't entirely know if it's better or worse than GPit yet, to be honest.
Upsets? I'm not sure, I don't think I'll ever be sure.
However, the biggest difference between the two is that I've designed Edifice with the competitive scene in mind while GPit was simply adopted by it, without being actually designed in the correct way.
Edifice is made in such a way that defenses on both A and B are viable, the iron man defense is much more viable, and B does not have a huge advantage to defend over A.
If it's going to be in any subsequent season, though, I suspect it *will* need serious testing otherwise some things are going to slip pass screening and make teams mad because they weren't fixed (due to no tests).

I'm not saying the map was poorly designed whatsoever (I actually like it), but everyone's complaints of G-Pit will apply to any A/D in that a med pick will always cause a lost round.

you can barely open your eyes

Hopefully that won't be as much of an issue in Edifice as A will not be capped instantly once the round starts (per usual on GPit), leading to multiple pushes being required to take both points (instead of one big push at B on GPit). This may give RED time to recover after one point is down, but as I said earlier, I can never be too sure.

I guess the reason I want to see viaduct go is not because it's a shit map but because I lost both my matches on it...... Wait giga you're just fucking stupid. I guess the reason I think snakewater is a shit map is because we lost our matches there again. Oh wait, people are just stupid again.

Another point I would like to bring up is snakewater's last point. When defending it's possible to see shadows through the wall and know EXACTLY where a team is pushing before they even do it!! This should have been fixed from the first version of the map.

I for one am happy that at least one person shares my negative opinion on snakewater

Am I the only one that wants to usher out Granary because of the stalematieness?

To be honest, I'm not really on the whole TF2 growth bandwagon. I won't try to stop it and if it's not an inconvenience to me I'll help it for sure, but I don't see why I should have to pay money to play a map that is basically a coin flip regardless of how much preparation you put in. A best of 3 isn't good enough to determine a consistent outcome but we all know nobody wants to play that map for more than 3 rounds.

And I still fail to see this wealth of strategy variations. When it comes down to it everyone does the same thing with a couple minor changes. At this point everything is pretty common on Gravelpit.

Let's be honest if Gravelpit was such a good map with varying strategies, people would probably play it outside of Gravelpit week.

Even Viaduct is played outside of it's week and there's really only 4 real variations.

Viaduct, Snakewater, Granary, and Gravel_Pit are the maps that have to go, but there are no replacements for them right now that are new.

We can recycle older maps like Yukon which is similar to Snakewater in which the Mid and 2nd is fine, but the last is awful to push out of. There are reasons why the older maps that are not in the cycle anymore are out of the cycle. People wanted them to be replaced because they had problems.

I think maps like Granary can be modified to be better for a "pro" version of the map. Snakewater has the same possibility in that it can be modified into a "pro" version of the map.

Viaduct is just stuck to be honest because even the pro version which is significantly better than the normal version only has that small door that makes a difference so that should be replaced. It is still in my mind however the best Koth map out there. So either we can wait for a better Koth map and keep it or temporarily replace it with ashville until a new koth map is made. I prefer the former.

Gravel Pit has it's replacement on the way, but honestly the more I think about it the more I like Mike's idea for a different type of game mode for those type of maps. I believe it would make the game more enjoyable for the players and keep it intense for the spectators.

just going to point out that vanguard is not only a cp map but also a pretty good koth. It got some extensive testing back when scorpio was running the new map pugs and it held up quite nicely. So if the cp version is deemed unready, I feel like the koth version is a pretty solid alternative and if that can help shape up the cp version in the future, that's a win-win right there.
I'm not even going to hide my bias but I'm just sayin.
there's also been some interest about the map on the ugc front. so you might want to check it out before it slips away and become a highlander exclusive map.

Remove metalworks (too slow/bogged down in its current version), each point is a task to try and attack. Add a second koth map. Koth is a good game type and there's no reason we should limit other gametypes to 1 map a season save 5cp.

Can someone explain what is fundamentally wrong with granary? The mid seems good enough, last is easy enough to push/push out of, and it only stalemates if both teams choose to play it as such (which is true of most maps). It's one of few maps where soldiers might actually be stronger than scouts overall (but maybe this is just from my exp). I've never had problems with the map yet I hear people complain about it often. I think snakewater is objectively worse just because the last is so difficult to push out of, but maybe I'm missing something.

i think quay is good enough to see regular play/be considered for the map list

the only legit problem with granary is the stalemate between mid and second, but for some reason no one wants to do anything about it

actually nvm. wrote a long post about why gpit is actually good but i figured fuck it...

just fucking keep it god damnit do we really have to defend this!?!?

FUCK

I personally hate granary because it's really boring to play. 2nd is a giant spambox, same with garage. It has none of the interestingness that the transitions of gully, badlands, and process have between the mids/2nds. I would love to see granary go, but I fully realize that isn't likely.

I also like metalworks, but that corridor pushing into 2nd is a total chore... fix that, and I think most people would have a lot less to complain about.

well it's not like there's only one push you can do...there's multiple ways to push yard(s) and second point

i think you guys are overhyping granary. there's no way it's getting voted out.

Have you ever tried pushing garage? The map doesn't need to stalemate out indefinitely if you know how to get picks on the flank or just push 6v6. I agree the map is boring if both teams refuse to push, but this is true of any map so I don't really buy it.

still voting out badlands
#change

Upsets are some of the best parts of watching TF2. I'm not saying we should take a map that is the flip of the coin; let's be honest here, Gpit is not that. Gravel pit is a map where orthodox 6s strategies are thrown out the window. This really bothers people, because they feel like its unfair; They can be really good at 5 cp maps but lose on Gravel Pit. But the truth is, that's because the other team was better prepared for it. Yeah, sure, luck happens, but the only difference is that gravel pit is not as forgiving as other maps. Gravel Pit is the map where the completely unexpected things can happen.

I liked the current map pool.

Badlands is Badlands. It's pretty clear it's good for 6s.
Granary is... meh. It's solid but not the best.
Process is awesome; should stay.
Viaduct is something different, and as such is highly debated, but it seems sufficient.
Snakewater should stay.
Gullywash is... solid, but Last is appalling. Only remove if better replacement is found.
Metalworks? I didn't watch much of it, I can't judge it.
Gravel pit is great. I wouldn't place it over Badlands or anything, but this should stay.

Well puff for what it's worth I for one agreed with everything in that post.

The truth is gpit isn't a map for people with short attention-spans. It can require focus, concentration, patience and coordination more so than other maps and so a lot of players don't like it and avoid it.

It isn't more of a coin-toss than any other map in the rotation. If so-called "gimmicky" or otherwise random tactics (read: backstabs) work against your team that doesn't mean the map is bad. Spy is viable on gpit more so than anywhere else, but that just means you have to be able to anticipate those plays as a team.

The match my team played this season in playoffs on gpit is a perfect example of this. Our medic dropped uber to a stab while defending B and we ended up losing the round and ultimately the match. But I never blamed the map for that, I blame myself and my teammates (<3 u guys) because we weren't vigilant enough. It wasn't the map that screwed us, it was the stab and our C defense and our C offense...and so on.

And one last thing I like mike's idea of changing the stopwatch scoring system, but unfortunately the map would probably be voted out before anyone could be convinced to alter the gamemode.

I like how people think metalworks is better than snake or gran or via.

koth_ashville is a good map, i dont undestant why it isnt being put into the rotation.

A common argument for why a map isn't good in this thread is that points are either too hard to push in or out of. I'm not sure this is the right way to approach finding good maps, as I think anyone would rather play a tense, back and forth game rather than roll/get rolled to last without doing anything on second. A merit of good map design is that you have to think about how to push a point.

Ive played edifice a couple times and I'd love to see it in the new rotation, I'd love to see process stay and Gpit replaced with edifice.

Upsets are fun to watch when they are actually earned and when players are having the game of their life or interesting strategies are used (paladin going bonkers on freight, teto on coldfront, destro on granary, justin on viaduct). At an acceptable level gpit is really just "do everything to get the medic" and the average skill level of competitive teams is now high enough that when people do that they pretty much automatically win rounds. As several players have already said, gpit is not about preparing because even the best players miss clutch airshots to save their medic and that is really just a factor of randomness that can not be accounted for no matter how hard you no-life MGE.

I still don't think anyone has ever made a decent argument for other game modes than 5cp because I do not think "for the sake of variety" is a respectable point. If you don't like 5cp you're playing the wrong game and that's what it comes down to ultimately.

clockwork said it best why this map is not suited for 6s and I don't think much more needs to be said about the map than has been said already. Artificial tension is not good for the game ultimately whether it gives spectators something to watch or not. Using a map designed for the cushion of playing with 12 players on your team in 6s has only made a map in which the slightest mistakes are exploded into round ending losses and as fun as upsets can be to watch when they're basically being manufactured because a map uses a completely different rule-set they tend to mean less in the grand scheme of things. You can even see this in the LAN predictions when people were debating if bp was the best team because their only match-ups against mix-up were on non-5cp maps.

In fact, I think the same argument that people on here like to use about CoD being a shit-game (that the skill gap is compressed by means of design intended to allow people to do good despite being bad and have a number of random factors so that the best player will not /always/ win) can just as easily be applied to gravel pit.

edifice is a pretty fun map but it needs some more work if its going to be put into an actual season. Way to many random shit in the map that it doesn't need/all these hallways that are useless. I think there are like 6-8 different ways to push into C, holy shit.

but i might be completely wrong and all of this stuff doesn't matter.

Viaduct isn't really exciting to watch, and just a pain to play as a Soldier

Metalworks I don't like alot..

Yukon make a comeback?

Process needs to be kept, along with granary.