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ESEA's possible demise?
481
#481
Ascent
9 Frags +

I hate to say this 500 times, but keep in mind the worst thing that could happen if your team registers for esea and it dies is that you'll get your money back. So please, esea teams, pay your fees today.

I hate to say this 500 times, but keep in mind the worst thing that could happen if your team registers for esea and it dies is that you'll get your money back. So please, esea teams, pay your fees today.
482
#482
8 Frags +

You're blaming the customers for the failure of a business.

You're blaming the customers for the failure of a business.
483
#483
13 Frags +

Not completely, I blame a few things. One obvious thing is the "political party" situation we seem to have stemming from the community. Albeit all good people and respectful, stepping up to try and better our situation but it's really not needed. People like being in a position of power. This propaganda bullshit is swaying our newer players away from the real competition. This isn't a presidential election it's our games livelihood and if I was a new player i'd be listening to the people who have been involved in this competitive community for years and years. We've all invested our time and money into making ESEA what it is and to throw it away for nothing but a half assed duplication with minor changes is just completely insane. I apologize if I sound harsh but i'm just speaking from my own perspective and very bluntly (as usual). No disrespect to the CEVO guys. I also blame ignorance and bitterness. Not just on the newer players but even some veterans.

If you want another My Gaming Edge v2 League Edition, then don't play ESEA. Don't worry though because you'll get 5 year old videos on how to do cp_badlands demoman rollouts so the newer players feel more welcomed :) If you're a new player who doesn't know what My Gaming Edge was, then just play ESEA and trust us.

Not completely, I blame a few things. One obvious thing is the "political party" situation we seem to have stemming from the community. Albeit all good people and respectful, stepping up to try and better our situation but it's really not needed. People like being in a position of power. This propaganda bullshit is swaying our newer players away from the real competition. This isn't a presidential election it's our games livelihood and if I was a new player i'd be listening to the people who have been involved in this competitive community for years and years. We've all invested our time and money into making ESEA what it is and to throw it away for nothing but a half assed duplication with minor changes is just completely insane. I apologize if I sound harsh but i'm just speaking from my own perspective and very bluntly (as usual). No disrespect to the CEVO guys. I also blame ignorance and bitterness. Not just on the newer players but even some veterans.

If you want another My Gaming Edge v2 League Edition, then don't play ESEA. Don't worry though because you'll get 5 year old videos on how to do cp_badlands demoman rollouts so the newer players feel more welcomed :) If you're a new player who doesn't know what My Gaming Edge was, then just play ESEA and trust us.
484
#484
7 Frags +
TecH_N9neAnother thing that made this whole situation possible is that almost all of the people supporting the switch to cevo... have never played cevo. I've asked many people who are campaigning this whole anti-esea thing, and only 2 of them have ever played cevo before. They have no perspective to compare the two. How can you choose a side when one side is completely unknown to you? It's really hard for me to understand that. That's why i'm saying the people who support this are, in my opinion, misjudging the situation. They don't actually know what they're supporting.

All they know is that their friends told them esea is the bad guy and now its time to change, no questions asked, lets roll with it. This community needs to think for themselves, and I don't mean as a whole, I mean each individual person. Stop following the leader. There's so much of that on these forums it almost makes me sick. How many people in this community made their decision off little to no information? I would say the vast majority from what i've gathered.

this basically sums up why this whole thing happened. even my teammates and friends were like "yo do you still want to play in ESEA, cuz u shudnt lol chek dis out *links to bitcoin thread*" and they don't even play esea/cevo

Whats done is done hooky ur lan is our only hope

[quote=TecH_N9ne]Another thing that made this whole situation possible is that almost all of the people supporting the switch to cevo... have never played cevo. I've asked many people who are campaigning this whole anti-esea thing, and only 2 of them have ever played cevo before. They have no perspective to compare the two. How can you choose a side when one side is completely unknown to you? It's really hard for me to understand that. That's why i'm saying the people who support this are, in my opinion, misjudging the situation. They don't actually know what they're supporting.

All they know is that their friends told them esea is the bad guy and now its time to change, no questions asked, lets roll with it. This community needs to think for themselves, and I don't mean as a whole, I mean each individual person. Stop following the leader. There's so much of that on these forums it almost makes me sick. How many people in this community made their decision off little to no information? I would say the vast majority from what i've gathered.[/quote]

this basically sums up why this whole thing happened. even my teammates and friends were like "yo do you still want to play in ESEA, cuz u shudnt lol chek dis out *links to bitcoin thread*" and they don't even play esea/cevo

Whats done is done hooky ur lan is our only hope
485
#485
17 Frags +

I just hope that everyone who is leaving ESEA is also boycotting WalMart, McDonald's, Nike, and every other corporation with morally bankrupt business tactics, just so your delusions of helping the world are at least internally consistent.

I just hope that everyone who is leaving ESEA is also boycotting WalMart, McDonald's, Nike, and every other corporation with morally bankrupt business tactics, just so your delusions of helping the world are at least internally consistent.
486
#486
7 Frags +

owl don't forget about porn.

owl don't forget about porn.
487
#487
14 Frags +

(Watch out, it's another early morning, groggily written text wall by synchro.)

It's interesting to me how the same handful of people, with a few exceptions of newcomers, have been bumping this thread with mostly recycled text. It's interesting because there are 68 teams paid and ready to go in CEVO, while ESEA has less than that even signed up.

I think it's pretty easy to explain, and it's not just because a lot of people are saying "oh ESEA is bad don't play in it" to a bunch of new players and they're all signing up for CEVO: there are a lot of veterans playing.

A few months back, when there were rumblings about CEVO wanting to grab more TF2 players, we had a pretty similar division but in different roles: half of the people talking about it were saying CEVO could never compete with ESEA, and the other half wanted to support CEVO and help them improve their offering. Put into that perspective, I think it's pretty easy to see why CEVO has gobbled up so much of the playerbase; while ESEA was sitting on its monopoly, CEVO was taking action and actively listening. Suddenly, when registration opens up and people see that CEVO was actually listening the entire time, ESEA supporters start to panic, and we get a bunch of threads like this one.

A lot of the talk in this thread has been calling people out for crying about bitcoins, or for boycotting scummy business practices, or a bunch of other negative things about ESEA. You're all basically saying "yeah, ESEA did these sucky things, but they're really not a big deal so why are you going to CEVO?" which is a pretty inaccurate assessment; people didn't join CEVO just because they didn't like ESEA, they did it because CEVO has actively done more with its feedback in the last few months than ESEA has probably done in more than a year.

When people bring up the fact that ESEA has bigger prize pools and a LAN and whatever else, they're forgetting about a pretty basic fact: almost all of that is supported by the lower levels of competition in the community. Most people don't play this game for money, and a lot of them just want to be in the top X of players regardless of a LAN. If you wanted to convince people to play in ESEA, you wouldn't do it by saying there's more money or a LAN to host or that "we've worked so hard to get here don't throw it away", because none of that really matters to the average player. What matters is having fun and, typically, getting better, which can happen with or without all that stuff.

I think at this point, people are just running in circles. I also think that it's mostly ESEA players popping up in this thread, given the ratio of +frags to pro-ESEA posts (and more important, against-CEVO posts) to the actual amount of players in ESEA, so I'm probably just wasting my time.

I guess my point to this yet-another-rant is two-fold: first, people who keep posting here are a bit late, since it's all been said before; and second, that most of you are missing the real reasons people aren't playing in ESEA. I've tried to remain pretty objective in my posts, but it's hard since I honestly have no intention of ever giving ESEA more of my time or money; that being said, I have nothing against them being kept alive by other players. I just think people should stop trying to convince players to join ESEA by whining about what CEVO doesn't have, and instead prove ESEA's value that's relevant to the players you're trying to convince.

[i](Watch out, it's another early morning, groggily written text wall by synchro.)[/i]

It's interesting to me how the same handful of people, with a few exceptions of newcomers, have been bumping this thread with mostly recycled text. It's interesting because there are 68 teams paid and ready to go in CEVO, while ESEA has less than that even signed up.

I think it's pretty easy to explain, and it's not just because a lot of people are saying "oh ESEA is bad don't play in it" to a bunch of new players and they're all signing up for CEVO: there are [u]a lot[/u] of veterans playing.

A few months back, when there were rumblings about CEVO wanting to grab more TF2 players, we had a pretty similar division but in different roles: half of the people talking about it were saying CEVO could never compete with ESEA, and the other half wanted to support CEVO and help them improve their offering. Put into that perspective, I think it's pretty easy to see why CEVO has gobbled up so much of the playerbase; while ESEA was sitting on its monopoly, CEVO was taking action and actively listening. Suddenly, when registration opens up and people see that CEVO was actually listening the entire time, ESEA supporters start to panic, and we get a bunch of threads like this one.


A lot of the talk in this thread has been calling people out for crying about bitcoins, or for boycotting scummy business practices, or a bunch of other negative things about ESEA. You're all basically saying "yeah, ESEA did these sucky things, but they're really not a big deal so why are you going to CEVO?" which is a pretty inaccurate assessment; people didn't join CEVO just because they didn't like ESEA, they did it because CEVO has actively done more with its feedback in the last few months than ESEA has probably done in more than a year.

When people bring up the fact that ESEA has bigger prize pools and a LAN and whatever else, they're forgetting about a pretty basic fact: [u]almost all[/u] of that is supported by the lower levels of competition in the community. Most people don't play this game for money, and a lot of them just want to be in the top X of players regardless of a LAN. If you wanted to convince people to play in ESEA, you wouldn't do it by saying there's more money or a LAN to host or that "we've worked so hard to get here don't throw it away", because none of that really matters to the average player. What matters is having fun and, typically, getting better, which can happen with or without all that stuff.

I think at this point, people are just running in circles. I also think that it's mostly ESEA players popping up in this thread, given the ratio of +frags to pro-ESEA posts (and more important, against-CEVO posts) to [url=http://play.esea.net/index.php?s=league&d=standings&division_id=2265]the actual amount of players in ESEA[/url], so I'm probably just wasting my time.

I guess my point to this yet-another-rant is two-fold: first, people who keep posting here are a bit late, since it's all been said before; and second, that most of you are missing the real reasons people aren't playing in ESEA. I've tried to remain pretty objective in my posts, but it's hard since I honestly have no intention of ever giving ESEA more of my time or money; that being said, I have nothing against them being kept alive by other players. I just think people should stop trying to convince players to join ESEA by whining about what CEVO doesn't have, and instead prove ESEA's value that's relevant to the players you're trying to convince.
488
#488
-7 Frags +

You know its bad when a company can install a malware system on your computer and there is still large support to keep giving them business.

I guess ill never understand it. That is such a huge huge disservice to a customer

You know its bad when a company can install a malware system on your computer and there is still large support to keep giving them business.

I guess ill never understand it. That is such a huge huge disservice to a customer
489
#489
2 Frags +

The sad part about this is that there are about 100 or so ESEA players that will suddenly be out of practice for a season. Teams that formed to compete in ESEA (and in some cases BOTH leagues) are going to probably die as there is no point in practicing to never play in a "tough" match.

This will, in turn, have an effect on a lot of CEVO rosters as well - since there will be a number of very capable and even talented players flooding the CEVO market.

CEVO would have been smart to delay the start date until 48-72 hours AFTER ESEA's deadline. They're missing out on a LOT of money this season. Stoning people out of the breakout season in your league - especially considering who a few of these customers are - is not a good business decision in the long term. People who don't play this season could be tempted to say "fuck it" and stop playing for good.

The community needs their money, time, and character.

The sad part about this is that there are about 100 or so ESEA players that will suddenly be out of practice for a season. Teams that formed to compete in ESEA (and in some cases BOTH leagues) are going to probably die as there is no point in practicing to never play in a "tough" match.

This will, in turn, have an effect on a lot of CEVO rosters as well - since there will be a number of very capable and even talented players flooding the CEVO market.

CEVO would have been smart to delay the start date until 48-72 hours AFTER ESEA's deadline. They're missing out on a LOT of money this season. Stoning people out of the breakout season in your league - especially considering who a few of these customers are - is not a good business decision in the long term. People who don't play this season could be tempted to say "fuck it" and stop playing for good.

The community needs their money, time, and character.
490
#490
4 Frags +
SoapYou know its bad when a company can install a malware system on your computer and there is still large support to keep giving them business.

This right here is what I'm talking about, going in circles; we're way past the malware talk bud, try to keep up.

radiumCEVO would have been smart to delay the start date until 48-72 hours AFTER ESEA's deadline. They're missing out on a LOT of money this season. Stoning people out of the breakout season in your league - especially considering who a few of these customers are - is not a good business decision in the long term.

CEVO doesn't make a dime from the entry fees, it all goes to next season's prize pool.

[quote=Soap]You know its bad when a company can install a malware system on your computer and there is still large support to keep giving them business.[/quote]
This right here is what I'm talking about, going in circles; we're way past the malware talk bud, try to keep up.

[quote=radium]CEVO would have been smart to delay the start date until 48-72 hours AFTER ESEA's deadline. They're missing out on a LOT of money this season. Stoning people out of the breakout season in your league - especially considering who a few of these customers are - is not a good business decision in the long term.[/quote]
CEVO doesn't make a dime from the entry fees, it all goes to next season's prize pool.
491
#491
-10 Frags +
synchroSoapYou know its bad when a company can install a malware system on your computer and there is still large support to keep giving them business.This right here is what I'm talking about, going in circles; we're way past the malware talk bud, try to keep up.

Its not in circles and its exactly what I am talking about. I don't see how someone could justify continuing to do business with a company that does this.

Not only the fact that ESEA has time and time again put TF2 on the backburner for Counter Strike. (and rightfully so I suppose)

[quote=synchro][quote=Soap]You know its bad when a company can install a malware system on your computer and there is still large support to keep giving them business.[/quote]
This right here is what I'm talking about, going in circles; we're way past the malware talk bud, try to keep up.
[/quote]

Its not in circles and its exactly what I am talking about. I don't see how someone could justify continuing to do business with a company that does this.

Not only the fact that ESEA has time and time again put TF2 on the backburner for Counter Strike. (and rightfully so I suppose)
492
#492
4 Frags +
synchroCEVO doesn't make a dime from the entry fees, it all goes to next season's prize pool.

They're still missing out on a bunch of money. The only difference is it wouldn't line their pockets. If anything that's worse, right? Now it affects the whole CEVO competitive scene. Having a successful first couple of seasons is pretty important I'd think. His point is completely valid.

Also, I find it interesting that you put words in so many peoples' mouths. Where are all the newer players saying they went to CEVO because they were impressed by the responsiveness? I haven't seen one person other than you say that the reason they're playing in CEVO is because of CEVO, NOT because of some sort of moral righteousness or anger at ESEA. Are these newer players incapable of posting? From my point of view it honestly just looks like a bunch of people jumped on the "fuck ESEA" bandwagon without really considering how much they are giving up. Sure it's without consequence for this magical group of newer players who just want to have fun (UGC?), but I think it's completely reasonable for anyone who genuinely wants to keep seriously playing competitive TF2 for a while be upset if ESEA dies. How long did it take ESEA, who had other SIZABLE sources of income, to get a LAN? Five seasons, right? CEVO, as has been brought up already, doesn't make a dime anywhere else, unless Nahanni funds the first few LANs from pocket there's no way it will happen in the conceivable future, and that means losing the entire top half of our game. Some people seem to dismiss this, but imagine the slow death that would await competitive if CEVO sputters.

Furthermore, not one person on the anti-ESEA camp has addressed the point that none of the bad things brought up about ESEA - malware, bitcoins, lPkane, poor PR, servers, client, delays etc. etc. haven't already been addressed by Killing, and the ones that haven't been "fixed", for the time being, do not directly affect TF2.

[quote=synchro]
CEVO doesn't make a dime from the entry fees, it all goes to next season's prize pool.[/quote]

They're still missing out on a bunch of money. The only difference is it wouldn't line their pockets. If anything that's worse, right? Now it affects the whole CEVO competitive scene. Having a successful first couple of seasons is pretty important I'd think. His point is completely valid.

Also, I find it interesting that you put words in so many peoples' mouths. Where are all the newer players saying they went to CEVO because they were impressed by the responsiveness? I haven't seen one person other than you say that the reason they're playing in CEVO is [i]because[/i] of CEVO, NOT because of some sort of moral righteousness or anger at ESEA. Are these newer players incapable of posting? From my point of view it honestly just looks like a bunch of people jumped on the "fuck ESEA" bandwagon without really considering how much they are giving up. Sure it's without consequence for this magical group of newer players who just want to have fun (UGC?), but I think it's completely reasonable for anyone who genuinely wants to keep seriously playing competitive TF2 for a while be upset if ESEA dies. How long did it take ESEA, who had other SIZABLE sources of income, to get a LAN? Five seasons, right? CEVO, as has been brought up already, doesn't make a dime anywhere else, unless Nahanni funds the first few LANs from pocket there's no way it will happen in the conceivable future, and that means losing the entire top half of our game. Some people seem to dismiss this, but imagine the slow death that would await competitive if CEVO sputters.

Furthermore, not one person on the anti-ESEA camp has addressed the point that none of the bad things brought up about ESEA - malware, bitcoins, lPkane, poor PR, servers, client, delays etc. etc. haven't already been addressed by Killing, and the ones that haven't been "fixed", for the time being, do not directly affect TF2.
493
#493
3 Frags +
synchroCEVO doesn't make a dime from the entry fees, it all goes to next season's prize pool.

Entry fees = greater prize pool. What does a greater prize pool do? It encourages high level play. What does high level play do? It piques the interest of viewers - and these are the viewers that sponsors and website advertisers want.

CEVO is an LLC. Even if they NEVER take a red cent of entry fees as profit, they need to make good money from their sponsors in order to financially justify having their business.

CEVO makes money from entry fees - just not in a very obvious way. Think of it like the deep-sea "lantern fish". The glowing bait (the league fee/payout system) draws the smaller fish (the player) into the mouth of the bigger fish (the sponsor). CEVO then goes fishing and lures the in the sponsors/new players that have been drawn into the system at large.

[quote=synchro]
CEVO doesn't make a dime from the entry fees, it all goes to next season's prize pool.[/quote]

Entry fees = greater prize pool. What does a greater prize pool do? It encourages high level play. What does high level play do? It piques the interest of viewers - and these are the viewers that sponsors and website advertisers want.

CEVO is an LLC. Even if they NEVER take a red cent of entry fees as profit, they need to make good money from their sponsors in order to financially justify having their business.

CEVO makes money from entry fees - just not in a very obvious way. Think of it like the deep-sea "lantern fish". The glowing bait (the league fee/payout system) draws the smaller fish (the player) into the mouth of the bigger fish (the sponsor). CEVO then goes fishing and lures the in the sponsors/new players that have been drawn into the system at large.
494
#494
-1 Frags +
SoapsynchroSoapYou know its bad when a company can install a malware system on your computer and there is still large support to keep giving them business.This right here is what I'm talking about, going in circles; we're way past the malware talk bud, try to keep up.
Its not in circles and its exactly what I am talking about. I don't see how someone could justify continuing to do business with a company that does this.

Not only the fact that ESEA has time and time again put TF2 on the backburner for Counter Strike. (and rightfully so I suppose)

What kind of shoes are you wearing right now

Where do you do your grocery shooping

[quote=Soap][quote=synchro][quote=Soap]You know its bad when a company can install a malware system on your computer and there is still large support to keep giving them business.[/quote]
This right here is what I'm talking about, going in circles; we're way past the malware talk bud, try to keep up.
[/quote]

Its not in circles and its exactly what I am talking about. I don't see how someone could justify continuing to do business with a company that does this.

Not only the fact that ESEA has time and time again put TF2 on the backburner for Counter Strike. (and rightfully so I suppose)[/quote]

What kind of shoes are you wearing right now

Where do you do your grocery shooping
495
#495
-6 Frags +
Soap
Its not in circles and its exactly what I am talking about. I don't see how someone could justify continuing to do business with a company that does this.

Not only the fact that ESEA has time and time again put TF2 on the backburner for Counter Strike. (and rightfully so I suppose)

And do you watch porn.

[quote=Soap]

Its not in circles and its exactly what I am talking about. I don't see how someone could justify continuing to do business with a company that does this.

Not only the fact that ESEA has time and time again put TF2 on the backburner for Counter Strike. (and rightfully so I suppose)[/quote]

And do you watch porn.
496
#496
2 Frags +
hanbroloThey're still missing out on a bunch of money. The only difference is it wouldn't line their pockets. His point is completely valid.

He was talking about it being "bad business"; my point was that CEVO isn't missing out on money, we, as a community, are.

hanbroloAlso, I find it interesting that you put words in so many peoples' mouths. Where are all the newer players saying they went to CEVO because they were impressed by the responsiveness? [...]

I'm not really sure how you can say that, I've probably seen just as many people commend CEVO for their efforts as I have people bashing ESEA for _______. I'm not going to dig around and find them because I've actually been paying attention enough to see them; if you're not, maybe you shouldn't be so quick to assume.

As far as where people are lining up to post about their opinions? They don't have to; as they say, talk is cheap, and action is what really matters. If you really think over four hundred people switched over to ESEA just because someone told you to, then I'd love to hear your reasoning about our current situation: there has been probably five to ten times as much posting in favor is ESEA (several threads, freemium offers, you name it) and opinions on why CEVO is bad, so by your logic, nobody should be in CEVO.

Finally, just because Killing has addressed the concerns doesn't mean they've gone away. I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove by saying nobody's responded to what Killing has said; what are we supposed to say? Should we be thanking ESEA for doing us a favor and fixing their problems?

radiumCEVO makes money from entry fees - just not in a very obvious way. [...]

CEVO reps have said time and again that the leagues they run aren't part of their business model; they do some kind of event coordination/consulting to make their money. Even if they did make money from TF2, much like ESEA, it would probably be negligible for them to have another 20 teams signed up. In addition, their goal for this (as far as I know) was to have around 30 team in Open, which they've nearly doubled. CEVO, so far, seems to be more interested in players enjoying their service and letting that speak for itself.

[quote=hanbrolo]
They're still missing out on a bunch of money. The only difference is it wouldn't line their pockets. His point is completely valid.
[/quote]
He was talking about it being "bad business"; my point was that CEVO isn't missing out on money, [i]we, as a community,[/i] are.

[quote=hanbrolo]
Also, I find it interesting that you put words in so many peoples' mouths. Where are all the newer players saying they went to CEVO because they were impressed by the responsiveness? [...][/quote]
I'm not really sure how you can say that, I've probably seen just as many people commend CEVO for their efforts as I have people bashing ESEA for _______. I'm not going to dig around and find them because I've actually been paying attention enough to see them; if you're not, maybe you shouldn't be so quick to assume.

As far as where people are lining up to post about their opinions? They don't have to; as they say, talk is cheap, and action is what really matters. If you really think over four hundred people switched over to ESEA just because someone told you to, then I'd [u]love[/u] to hear your reasoning about our current situation: there has been probably five to ten times as much posting in favor is ESEA (several threads, freemium offers, you name it) and opinions on why CEVO is bad, so by your logic, nobody should be in CEVO.

Finally, just because Killing has addressed the concerns doesn't mean they've gone away. I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove by saying nobody's responded to what Killing has said; what are we supposed to say? Should we be thanking ESEA for doing us a favor and fixing their problems?

[quote=radium]CEVO makes money from entry fees - just not in a very obvious way. [...][/quote]
CEVO reps have said time and again that the leagues they run aren't part of their business model; they do some kind of event coordination/consulting to make their money. Even if they did make money from TF2, much like ESEA, it would probably be negligible for them to have another 20 teams signed up. In addition, their goal for this (as far as I know) was to have around 30 team in Open, which they've nearly doubled. CEVO, so far, seems to be more interested in players enjoying their service and letting that speak for itself.
497
#497
-5 Frags +

3 Invite teams in CEVO main. I mean come on.

3 Invite teams in CEVO main. I mean come on.
498
#498
12 Frags +
spaceghostpurrp3 Invite teams in CEVO main. I mean come on.

dont worry if esea dies youll have the entire invite player base looking for cevo teams and probly winding up in open

[quote=spaceghostpurrp]3 Invite teams in CEVO main. I mean come on.[/quote]

dont worry if esea dies youll have the entire invite player base looking for cevo teams and probly winding up in open
499
#499
11 Frags +

I'd just like to point out my two reasons for preferring CEVO since we all have different ideas about why people are where.

1. CEVO has people like Lange working with them, who know the game well and have already been a positive influence on the community.
2. Since I'm not ever expecting to win a division or make Invite/LAN, league fees give me very little, so I want them to be as low as possible.

It's practicality. You still play matches and you still do scrims, so it can't be significantly worse. I managed to play UGC 6v6 competitively and seriously by scrimming open teams and talking strategy with my teammates (We were in Platinum but bad enough to have to try), so I plan to enjoy CEVO just the same.

I'd just like to point out my two reasons for preferring CEVO since we all have different ideas about why people are where.

1. CEVO has people like Lange working with them, who know the game well and have already been a positive influence on the community.
2. Since I'm not ever expecting to win a division or make Invite/LAN, league fees give me very little, so I want them to be as low as possible.

It's practicality. You still play matches and you still do scrims, so it can't be significantly worse. I managed to play UGC 6v6 competitively and seriously by scrimming open teams and talking strategy with my teammates (We were in Platinum but bad enough to have to try), so I plan to enjoy CEVO just the same.
500
#500
1 Frags +
Mr_OwlWhat kind of shoes are you wearing right now

Where do you do your grocery shooping
Mr_OwlI just hope that everyone who is leaving ESEA is also boycotting WalMart, McDonald's, Nike, and every other corporation with morally bankrupt business tactics, just so your delusions of helping the world are at least internally consistent.

People aren't happy with ESEA's service, so they stopped giving them money. No need to act like a condescending douche.

[quote=Mr_Owl]
What kind of shoes are you wearing right now

Where do you do your grocery shooping[/quote]

[quote=Mr_Owl]I just hope that everyone who is leaving ESEA is also boycotting WalMart, McDonald's, Nike, and every other corporation with morally bankrupt business tactics, just so your delusions of helping the world are at least internally consistent.[/quote]

People aren't happy with ESEA's service, so they stopped giving them money. No need to act like a condescending douche.
501
#501
10 Frags +

We're giving up a whole lot to make the switch to CEVO. I really hope that we don't get burned this time around.

When I was a shit STA 8s player, I read about the switch to ESEA on GotFrag. A big reason for the switch had to do with how it opened certain doors and offered new features that had never been seen before. What doors can CEVO open for us this time around?

ESEA is a badly flawed company, but the "pay to play" community under this most recent season of ESEA was actually very healthy. IM was extremely fun and competitive. Open saw a number of new teams rise up. Invite and Main provided some solid postseason entertainment.

CEVO is probably a cleaner company than ESEA - but will the scene be as healthy this season as it was last season? How long will it take to recover, and will people stay on board for the 2-3 seasons of growing pains while the Rome is built?

We're giving up a whole lot to make the switch to CEVO. I really hope that we don't get burned this time around.

When I was a shit STA 8s player, I read about the switch to ESEA on GotFrag. A big reason for the switch had to do with how it opened certain doors and offered new features that had never been seen before. What doors can CEVO open for us this time around?

ESEA is a badly flawed company, but the "pay to play" community under this most recent season of ESEA was actually very healthy. IM was extremely fun and competitive. Open saw a number of new teams rise up. Invite and Main provided some solid postseason entertainment.

CEVO is probably a cleaner company than ESEA - but will the scene be as healthy this season as it was last season? How long will it take to recover, and will people stay on board for the 2-3 seasons of growing pains while the Rome is built?
502
#502
3 Frags +
radiumWe're giving up a whole lot to make the switch to CEVO. I really hope that we don't get burned this time around.

When I was a shit STA 8s player, I read about the switch to ESEA on GotFrag. A big reason for the switch had to do with how it opened certain doors and offered new features that had never been seen before. What doors can CEVO open for us this time around?

ESEA is a badly flawed company, but the "pay to play" community under this most recent season of ESEA was actually very healthy. IM was extremely fun and competitive. Open saw a number of new teams rise up. Invite and Main provided some solid postseason entertainment.

CEVO is probably a cleaner company than ESEA - but will the scene be as healthy this season as it was last season? How long will it take to recover, and will people stay on board for the 2-3 seasons of growing pains while the Rome is built?

No. The band wagoners are those who weren't around for the first switch.

[quote=radium]We're giving up a whole lot to make the switch to CEVO. I really hope that we don't get burned this time around.

When I was a shit STA 8s player, I read about the switch to ESEA on GotFrag. A big reason for the switch had to do with how it opened certain doors and offered new features that had never been seen before. What doors can CEVO open for us this time around?

ESEA is a badly flawed company, but the "pay to play" community under this most recent season of ESEA was actually very healthy. IM was extremely fun and competitive. Open saw a number of new teams rise up. Invite and Main provided some solid postseason entertainment.

CEVO is probably a cleaner company than ESEA - but will the scene be as healthy this season as it was last season? How long will it take to recover, and will people stay on board for the 2-3 seasons of growing pains while the Rome is built?[/quote]

No. The band wagoners are those who weren't around for the first switch.
503
#503
1 Frags +

I have a question for synchro especially but I guess any CEVO disciples around

What exactly has CEVO done in terms of listening to its community that ESEA has not? I'm honestly curious, because as far as I can tell the only real polls they've had were an invite poll, a whitelist poll, and a "how many matches per week" poll in which they didn't even pick the option that the majority voted for.

Like it's great and all that we're talking about how active the CEVO admins are and shit but they haven't actually done anything based on community opinion they've just done things and the CEVO fans have rallied behind those decisions.

In the end I think we're trading in real competition, a LAN, and a company with a time-tested infrastructure for 10 bucks a player per season and some healing stats attached to some names that players like and I just don't understand why. The "ESEA is a shitty company" argument doesn't really hold water because the last time we saw CEVO they were a pretty shitty company too and at best they're unproven. Are healing stats or celebrity endorsements worth that much to you guys?

I'm just trying to understand why people who actually care about getting better (and I realize that that does not include every TF2 player) would cripple their ability to do so.

I have a question for synchro especially but I guess any CEVO disciples around

What exactly has CEVO done in terms of listening to its community that ESEA has not? I'm honestly curious, because as far as I can tell the only real polls they've had were an invite poll, a whitelist poll, and a "how many matches per week" poll in which they didn't even pick the option that the majority voted for.

Like it's great and all that we're talking about how active the CEVO admins are and shit but they haven't actually done anything based on community opinion they've just done things and the CEVO fans have rallied behind those decisions.

In the end I think we're trading in real competition, a LAN, and a company with a time-tested infrastructure for 10 bucks a player per season and some healing stats attached to some names that players like and I just don't understand why. The "ESEA is a shitty company" argument doesn't really hold water because the last time we saw CEVO they were a pretty shitty company too and at best they're unproven. Are healing stats or celebrity endorsements worth that much to you guys?

I'm just trying to understand why people who actually care about getting better (and I realize that that does not include every TF2 player) would cripple their ability to do so.
504
#504
5 Frags +
PlatinumNo. The band wagoners are those who weren't around for the first switch.

Way back in the day - before I stopped playing full-time and focused on finishing school - I remember playing in CEVO-Open on a team that went 5-3. This was around S4.

Platinum: Were you at the top of the scene back then as well? If so, wouldn't you also say that the top-end scene back then was actually very unhealthy? I distinctly remember that Open was quite casual, and as result there were very few people that truly cracked CEVO-Professional. As a matter of fact, most people were too scared to even think about paying the money to play CEVO-P and learn how to get good.

I remember the low end of CEVO being very deep and transient, the middle of the pack being fractured, and the top end being very thin. How did you see it all?

-----

The weird part about all of this is that while ESEA were playing dirty, the mid-level community (IM and Main players) was becoming deeper and probably even better than they ever have been.

There are a number of solid mid-level (or even better) players that were only able to grow thanks to the structure within ESEA. These players have often gone from being nothing at TF2 and have become high-quality contributors that engage and help make the community great.

Look at some of the recent community LANs that have taken place. Without the mid-level players that were nurtured under ESEA, our local LANs such as FITES, GXL, etc. would have all sucked. There is no way in hell that FITES would have been 4 solid teams deep unless there was a league to grow the talent on each team. ESEA was the conduit that built the players - and the players made that experience great.

ESEA is a messed-up company, but I look at the turnout and competitive drive at my local LANs and I really wonder if we're as unhealthy as we think with ESEA.

The community was on shaky ground the last time we all played in CEVO. That's why I'm a little nervous about it this time. I hope CEVO doesn't take the rope we are giving them and hang us all with it.

[quote=Platinum]No. The band wagoners are those who weren't around for the first switch.[/quote]

Way back in the day - before I stopped playing full-time and focused on finishing school - I remember playing in CEVO-Open on a team that went 5-3. This was around S4.

Platinum: Were you at the top of the scene back then as well? If so, wouldn't you also say that the top-end scene back then was actually very unhealthy? I distinctly remember that Open was quite casual, and as result there were very few people that truly cracked CEVO-Professional. As a matter of fact, most people were too scared to even think about paying the money to play CEVO-P and learn how to get good.

I remember the low end of CEVO being very deep and transient, the middle of the pack being fractured, and the top end being very thin. How did you see it all?

-----

The weird part about all of this is that while ESEA were playing dirty, the mid-level community (IM and Main players) was becoming deeper and probably even better than they ever have been.

There are a number of solid mid-level (or even better) players that were only able to grow thanks to the structure within ESEA. These players have often gone from being nothing at TF2 and have become high-quality contributors that engage and help make the community great.

Look at some of the recent community LANs that have taken place. Without the mid-level players that were nurtured under ESEA, our local LANs such as FITES, GXL, etc. would have all sucked. There is no way in hell that FITES would have been 4 solid teams deep unless there was a league to grow the talent on each team. ESEA was the conduit that built the players - and the players made that experience great.

ESEA is a messed-up company, but I look at the turnout and competitive drive at my local LANs and I really wonder if we're as unhealthy as we think with ESEA.

The community was on shaky ground the last time we all played in CEVO. That's why I'm a little nervous about it this time. I hope CEVO doesn't take the rope we are giving them and hang us all with it.
505
#505
5 Frags +

after some thinking i've come to a realization

low level players are the foundation($) of high level tf2
low level players cannot understand or truly appreciate high level tf2
low level players care for competition amongst themselves more than high level tf2
low level players reject esea because they're mean and dishonest
low level players flock to cevo because they're nice and provide for their needs
without low level players high level tf2 will cease to exist as we know it
but it is only natural

my soul is at peace

after some thinking i've come to a realization

low level players are the foundation($) of high level tf2
low level players cannot understand or truly appreciate high level tf2
low level players care for competition amongst themselves more than high level tf2
low level players reject esea because they're mean and dishonest
low level players flock to cevo because they're nice and provide for their needs
without low level players high level tf2 will cease to exist [i]as we know it[/i]
but it is only natural

my soul is at peace
506
#506
7 Frags +

Radium I know that you're reading this thread and I'm too lazy to quote you but please don't spread misinformation. CEVO will accept new rosters post registration.

MR_SLINIn case you guys were wondering, if ESEA does die you can sign your team up for CEVO up until Week 7. As long as you pay up you can complete the season. My team decided that they wanted to pay the ESEA league fees, and if it falls apart we'll have a backup plan.

Week 1 begins this week.
Radium I know that you're reading this thread and I'm too lazy to quote you but please don't spread misinformation. CEVO will accept new rosters post registration.

[quote=MR_SLIN]In case you guys were wondering, if ESEA does die you can sign your team up for CEVO up until Week 7. As long as you pay up you can complete the season. My team decided that they wanted to pay the ESEA league fees, and if it falls apart we'll have a backup plan.

Week 1 begins this week.[/quote]
507
#507
Tip of the Hats
9 Frags +
MR_SLINRadium I know that you're reading this thread and I'm too lazy to quote you but please don't spread misinformation. CEVO will accept new rosters post registration.
MR_SLINIn case you guys were wondering, if ESEA does die you can sign your team up for CEVO up until Week 7. As long as you pay up you can complete the season. My team decided that they wanted to pay the ESEA league fees, and if it falls apart we'll have a backup plan.

Week 1 begins this week.

To clarify, we will accept new rosters until March 6th. We will accept new players until Week 7. A roster can "ready" at any point until Week 7 and be put into scheduling. CEVO will try to schedule make-up matches for any teams that "ready" late, but we can't always get every match made up.

Missed matches are not counted towards CPI, and make it difficult for a team to qualify for playoffs. It is not a viable strategy to attempt to register late to get an easy season and make playoffs.

[quote=MR_SLIN]Radium I know that you're reading this thread and I'm too lazy to quote you but please don't spread misinformation. CEVO will accept new rosters post registration.

[quote=MR_SLIN]In case you guys were wondering, if ESEA does die you can sign your team up for CEVO up until Week 7. As long as you pay up you can complete the season. My team decided that they wanted to pay the ESEA league fees, and if it falls apart we'll have a backup plan.

Week 1 begins this week.[/quote][/quote]

To clarify, we will accept new rosters until March 6th. We will accept new players until Week 7. A roster can "ready" at any point until Week 7 and be put into scheduling. CEVO will try to schedule make-up matches for any teams that "ready" late, but we can't always get every match made up.

Missed matches are not counted towards CPI, and make it difficult for a team to qualify for playoffs. It is not a viable strategy to attempt to register late to get an easy season and make playoffs.
508
#508
0 Frags +

I was told otherwise. I stand corrected.

I was told otherwise. I stand corrected.
509
#509
7 Frags +
hooliafter some thinking i've come to a realization

low level players are the foundation($) of high level tf2
low level players cannot understand or truly appreciate high level tf2
low level players care for competition amongst themselves more than high level tf2
low level players reject esea because they're mean and dishonest
low level players flock to cevo because they're nice and provide for their needs
without low level players high level tf2 will cease to exist as we know it
but it is only natural

my soul is at peace

I think you're missing the tragedy of it all which is that the low level players will eventually become the high level ones.

[quote=hooli]after some thinking i've come to a realization

low level players are the foundation($) of high level tf2
low level players cannot understand or truly appreciate high level tf2
low level players care for competition amongst themselves more than high level tf2
low level players reject esea because they're mean and dishonest
low level players flock to cevo because they're nice and provide for their needs
without low level players high level tf2 will cease to exist [i]as we know it[/i]
but it is only natural

my soul is at peace[/quote]

I think you're missing the tragedy of it all which is that the low level players will eventually become the high level ones.
510
#510
-8 Frags +

I was looking forward to watching invite matches this season...

thanks bandwagoners for killing a league that gave you better separations of skill level, better organization of play and a LAN/even playing field while loosing money just by doing so

I was looking forward to watching invite matches this season...

thanks bandwagoners for killing a league that gave you better separations of skill level, better organization of play and a LAN/even playing field while loosing money just by doing so
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