JarateKing It's not as black or white as that. When you're new and don't really know much about how the game works competitively and neither do your opponents, really dumb stuff can destroy you.
And after that happens you do research and improve????
JarateKingYou can do well against completely meta setups because that's what all your practice went into, even if you're not flexible at all. And then you can get completely dominated by a natascha heavy + degreaser pyro + dr spy because you have no clue how to deal with something that completely goes against everything you know, even if a more competent team would just outplay them because they have a better understanding of what to do.
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If the individual skill level of each player is exactly the same then it's not expected that the natascha "heavy + degreaser pyro + dr spy" will do very well with that setup. You seem to assume the players getting rolled are new, and their opponents are experienced. Let me assure you that there is a million ways to do dumb shit against inexperienced players and removing 1 or 2 options doesn't make a difference. And also, why are these more experienced players sandbagging anyway? This is a completely different issue.
You can also look at other games, like CS:GO and LoL and lots of other games where suboptimal strategies can completely destroy the lower ranks. That doesn't mean that they should be removed from a game.
JarateKingI think it's not really reasonable to expect that from new players.
Who is expecting them to do this exactly? If a team looses a match... They loose! And if a team wins they win!
I don't expect them to do anything, but if they want to win they should expect to be prepared.
JarateKingThere's a good chance they joined competitive because we keep telling them "competitive is so much less chaotic and way more clean than pubs, you don't ever see these garbage unlocks and retard strats."
Do you have a source on this? Where did you find out this statistic? I expect you to support your claims, and if you can't do that, you should not be making them. What I'm gonna say here is just as anecdotal as what you said:
I have never heard anyone say anything remotely close to what you wrote.
In terms of evidence this is equally valid.
JarateKingBut at low levels with our current whitelist, that's not really the case at all, and the worst part is that some of them work. What they end up experiencing is often closer to an organized pub, and a lot of them will just go pub instead after they see that.
You still haven't demonstrated your claim to be true so why would nayone take this argument seriously? And if you didn't remember, before this global whitelist came about, low level games and tf2centers/tf2lobbies were still infested with bad strategies and felt like organised pubs. The same way CS:GO matchmaking in Silver 1 feels like an organised casual match with less players. How is this a problem exclusive to any game? Can you point to a single esport or even a sport where this is not the case? How do you avoid making something in low levels of competitive very distinctive from a high level casual?
JarateKingDid they deserve to lose?
Yes
JarateKingThe issue is that they're going in matches and playing this chaotic game that's hardly like competitive.They don't like it and would much rather be playing actual competitive.
Citations needed
JarateKingBut they can't, because the dumb strats allowed by the whitelist are often more effective just by being something the other team has never even considered, even though it's no fun for anyone.
Again, they can. Don't play against teams who do this, and if you're desperate you can just say "we only play against people who play with normal classes and weapons". It's not a big deal.
JarateKingIt's just a lot of extra work to put on new players, when there's not really any reason to justify it.
Work they eventually need to put in if they want to become better.
JarateKingHigh level players don't have to deal with this stuff, the game isn't changed whether they're banned or not.
High level players already put in this work and that's why they can handle it.
JarateKingLow level players are the ones who do face it, and they certainly don't want it.
Citation needed.
JarateKingThe only solutions for them are to:
[*] Get better, which they'd do anyway with or without bans, so it's not an argument either way.
[*] Practice against those unlocks, which is a lot more work for something that'll get invalidated pretty quickly since they'll only ever see those unlocks when they're still low level. Not to mention it's really aids practicing against a specific gimmick weapon in the first place.
JarateKing[*] Quit playing. Which is what a lot of new players do, since the competitive they're playing is nothing like the competitive we play and say is fun, and we basically just lied to them.
Even if what you are saying here is true, that it's not what they imagined, how do you know it's because of the whitelist? Again, citation needed.
JarateKingIt's a "no different" at best, "pretty shit" at worst. Or, instead, we can just change the whitelist and make all of that completely nullified, and not have to deal with it at all.
Virtually everyone on the tf2 subreddit hates that the competitive community bans everything. I've seen countless of posts where people complain that they can't play their favourite class or use their favourite weapons. Removing variety is not going to help.
JarateKingWe didn't see any benefits from opening the whitelist, and instead every good thing that we'd thought would happen ended up backfiring, so it's not like we're losing anything by doing that.
We're loosing options to situational weapons to make the meta less stale. That's more than nothing.
The only reason your line of reasoning is attractive in this community, is that it resonates with people, and everything they already believe.