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Why isn't the Degreaser banned?
31
#31
-2 Frags +

I think some people are responding based on the title without reading the first post. Not everyone, and I appreciate those that did reply.

DunderBrothat's a really weird question, why is it NOT banned, I don't care and I don't want it banned but why isn't it?

I'm asking because I'm trying get info on why comp players find the Degreaser balanced enough to not get banned. My own opinion on it shouldn't factor in, and I said that to get people to establish that I'm not one of those people who finds the Degreaser ridiculous so the discussion would focus on why it isn't banned.

heeroIn my opinion, the degreaser isn't banned because nobody fucking cares. Thanks for taking the time to consider my opinion.

I was a former rank 2 (scout player) and champion of the Open Division of E-Sports Entertainment. I hope these credentials are acceptable enough for me to provide my opinion and for you to consider them. Thank you again.

It's not that your credentials affect whether or not you have your opinion considered by me. Sorry if it came off that way, but my main reason for asking is, simply, to provide a reference of skill level when I quote you in the future.

I think some people are responding based on the title without reading the first post. Not everyone, and I appreciate those that did reply.

[quote=DunderBro]that's a really weird question, why is it NOT banned, I don't care and I don't want it banned but why isn't it?[/quote]I'm asking because I'm trying get info on why comp players find the Degreaser balanced enough to not get banned. My own opinion on it shouldn't factor in, and I said that to get people to establish that I'm not one of those people who finds the Degreaser ridiculous so the discussion would focus on why it isn't banned.

[quote=heero]In my opinion, the degreaser isn't banned because nobody fucking cares. Thanks for taking the time to consider my opinion.

I was a former rank 2 (scout player) and champion of the Open Division of E-Sports Entertainment. I hope these credentials are acceptable enough for me to provide my opinion and for you to consider them. Thank you again.[/quote]It's not that your credentials affect whether or not you have your opinion considered by me. Sorry if it came off that way, but my main reason for asking is, simply, to provide a reference of skill level when I quote you in the future.
32
#32
0 Frags +

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33
#33
0 Frags +

There's no reason to ban a weapon that only serves to make the pyro gargle slightly less dick, and actually be useful in certain situations.

Creds: I play pugs and bottom damage as demo

There's no reason to ban a weapon that only serves to make the pyro gargle slightly less dick, and actually be useful in certain situations.

Creds: I play pugs and bottom damage as demo
34
#34
RGB LAN
1 Frags +
DrPloxoIn uber vs uber situations those crits don't matter, but it's a reliable clean-up tool if the attackers fumble. There aren't very many opportunities for a pyro to get those crit-switch kills unless the last push completely flops. Like I said, it does deny the push decently; Which the stock does well, too. If the pyro ends up with the uber, it's strength as a 1v1 class is completely nullified in the exchange. It's abusable strength comes up in flanks and punishing extension. So it's most viable use is denying the uber push until it's dead or useless (most the team is in and swarming around the combo

I don't wanna sound like a dick, but you didn't really mention too much about why it isn't abused more often. If its most viable use is denying the uber push until it's dead or useless (and that is a great, viable use), why isn't it abused way more often? I'm guessing because it doesn't work that often? In my opinion, when something works some of the time that ends up working really well when it does actually work, I don't really consider it broken. Honestly, I think a 450 heavy is more annoying than a degreaser pyro, and I also think that a 450 heavy has more of an effective success rate than a degreaser pyro (I will say that this is situational, but heavy is more versatile than pyro).

Natascha on Gravelpit C is a different scenario than a pyro in badlands last, or gullywash last. Gravelpit requires that you climb the tower or explosive jump to it. It denies the jump perfectly every time by both redirecting and slowing the jumper. (That strat might need to be looked at again because of the natascha's nerf recently.)

I was mostly comparing the fact that heavy is used for the same scenarios that pyro is used for (and more), but heavy does a better job. On top of that, Natascha heavy was abused in so many situations where heavy wasn't normally used, and it was abused to the point where it was considered a problem and overpowered. For pyro being used in roughly the same scenarios (a bit different for gravelpit C, but gravelpit C nonetheless), no one has abused the pyro degreaser enough for it to be seen as an overpowered, unfair advantage.

For the record, I'm not saying that you're absolutely wrong. The reason why I defend the issue of weapon balance and game balance is that I play fighting games competitively as well, which is dominated by the topic of balance. The reason why Akuma is banned in Super Street Fighter II Turbo in tournament play is because he had tactics that could completely lock you down and make you lose if you knew how to do them (and they weren't very difficult to perform). It got to the point where an average player could beat a professional due to his broken tactics. However, on the topic of things that are generally balanced, newer players usually say "wow, you're so cheap spamming fireballs all day" like it's an unbeatable strategy. The reason why they think it's an unbeatable or at least an unfair strategy is that they don't know how to deal with it and give up instead of learning what to do.

In my experience, dealing with degreaser pyro (or pyro in general), mostly consists of sniping pre-uber. However, ubering in a scout against the pyro and flashing a soldier to make them pop in uber vs uber situations forces it so they must split their ubers a lot -- otherwise, pyros will get focused by hitscan or a ridiculous amount of spam, which pretty much means they will get instagibbed unless flashed. Even when ubers aren't happening, degreaser pyros can be threatening and annoying, but definitely aren't a large problem or unbeatable.

/book

[quote=DrPloxo]In uber vs uber situations those crits don't matter, but it's a reliable clean-up tool if the attackers fumble. There aren't very many opportunities for a pyro to get those crit-switch kills unless the last push completely flops. Like I said, it does deny the push decently; Which the stock does well, too. If the pyro ends up with the uber, it's strength as a 1v1 class is completely nullified in the exchange. It's abusable strength comes up in flanks and punishing extension. So it's most viable use is denying the uber push until it's dead or useless (most the team is in and swarming around the combo[/quote]

I don't wanna sound like a dick, but you didn't really mention too much about why it isn't abused more often. If its most viable use is denying the uber push until it's dead or useless (and that is a great, viable use), why isn't it abused way more often? I'm guessing because it doesn't work that often? In my opinion, when something works some of the time that ends up working really well when it does actually work, I don't really consider it broken. Honestly, I think a 450 heavy is more annoying than a degreaser pyro, and I also think that a 450 heavy has more of an effective success rate than a degreaser pyro (I will say that this is situational, but heavy is more versatile than pyro).


[quote]Natascha on Gravelpit C is a different scenario than a pyro in badlands last, or gullywash last. Gravelpit requires that you climb the tower or explosive jump to it. It denies the jump perfectly every time by both redirecting and slowing the jumper. (That strat might need to be looked at again because of the natascha's nerf recently.)[/quote]

I was mostly comparing the fact that heavy is used for the same scenarios that pyro is used for (and more), but heavy does a better job. On top of that, Natascha heavy was abused in so many situations where heavy wasn't normally used, and it was abused to the point where it was considered a problem and overpowered. For pyro being used in roughly the same scenarios (a bit different for gravelpit C, but gravelpit C nonetheless), no one has abused the pyro degreaser enough for it to be seen as an overpowered, unfair advantage.

For the record, I'm not saying that you're absolutely wrong. The reason why I defend the issue of weapon balance and game balance is that I play fighting games competitively as well, which is dominated by the topic of balance. The reason why Akuma is banned in Super Street Fighter II Turbo in tournament play is because he had tactics that could completely lock you down and make you lose if you knew how to do them (and they weren't very difficult to perform). It got to the point where an average player could beat a professional due to his broken tactics. However, on the topic of things that are generally balanced, newer players usually say "wow, you're so cheap spamming fireballs all day" like it's an unbeatable strategy. The reason why they think it's an unbeatable or at least an unfair strategy is that they don't know how to deal with it and give up instead of learning what to do.

In my experience, dealing with degreaser pyro (or pyro in general), mostly consists of sniping pre-uber. However, ubering in a scout against the pyro and flashing a soldier to make them pop in uber vs uber situations forces it so they must split their ubers a lot -- otherwise, pyros will get focused by hitscan or a ridiculous amount of spam, which pretty much means they will get instagibbed unless flashed. Even when ubers aren't happening, degreaser pyros can be threatening and annoying, but definitely aren't a large problem or unbeatable.

/book
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