I've seen a lot of talk going around of reworking Yukon, which made me wonder what changes it would need to be viable. It's a fun map, and I admit that it could use improvement, but what would that improvement actually be? I'm not sure I would personally rework it, although I might try; this is more as a feedback thread and starting point for anyone who has seen the demand for it and has thought about making it.
What would yukon pro need to be a good map?
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Map Discussion
I've seen a lot of talk going around of reworking Yukon, which made me wonder what changes it would need to be viable. It's a fun map, and I admit that it could use improvement, but what would that improvement actually [i]be[/i]? I'm not sure I would personally rework it, although I might try; this is more as a feedback thread and starting point for anyone who has seen the demand for it and has thought about making it.
It's currently a good map. I think the old version just left everyone with a distaste for it.
It's currently a good map. I think the old version just left everyone with a distaste for it.
it's already close enough to a good map to be played, at least compared to metalworks
it's already close enough to a good map to be played, at least compared to metalworks
My current issue is the mid, it feels very slow how each team takes sides and sorta waits for sacks or the other team to push
My current issue is the mid, it feels very slow how each team takes sides and sorta waits for sacks or the other team to push
kounterpartsMy current issue is the mid, it feels very slow how each team takes sides and sorta waits for sacks or the other team to push
[quote=kounterparts]My current issue is the mid, it feels very slow how each team takes sides and sorta waits for sacks or the other team to push[/quote]
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07V2ATtIZ1Q[/youtube]
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07V2ATtIZ1Q[/youtube]
fix the mid and make second a little larger and it will be fine
fix the mid and make second a little larger and it will be fine
sniper sightlines are REALLY strong on mid, also kinda on last
sniper sightlines are REALLY strong on mid, also kinda on last
Anyone remember that goober ingin circa 2010 who would run sniper to mid instead of demo every match on Yukon?
Also on-topic, what others have listed about the middle. It's honestly a decent map yo.
Anyone remember that goober ingin circa 2010 who would run sniper to mid instead of demo every match on Yukon?
Also on-topic, what others have listed about the middle. It's honestly a decent map yo.
Also on-topic, what others have listed about the middle. It's honestly a decent map yo.
So what that it's a good sniper map? That might make it a bit more interesting if a team with a sniper like Flippy had a Yukon as an option to pick in bo3's. A criticism of 6's is how we isolated the other classes; and a criticism of this statement is that cookie cutter classes are actually just the best. Mostly true, but a lot of people forget the map pool has been pruned and fabricated (literally: see pro_viaduct) to suit what is best for the traditional class lineup. Take a look at i55. Even the most mundane head-shot creates so much hype on stream. It's a shame we gravitated away from maps that let other classes shine.
Sincerely,
- Totally not a Sniper main
So what that it's a good sniper map? That might make it a bit more interesting if a team with a sniper like Flippy had a Yukon as an option to pick in bo3's. A criticism of 6's is how we isolated the other classes; and a criticism of this statement is that cookie cutter classes are actually just the best. Mostly true, but a lot of people forget the map pool has been pruned and fabricated (literally: see pro_viaduct) to suit what is best for the traditional class lineup. Take a look at i55. Even the most mundane head-shot creates so much hype on stream. It's a shame we gravitated away from maps that let other classes shine.
Sincerely,
- Totally not a Sniper main
Sincerely,
- Totally not a Sniper main
Well the problem is once the classic gets buffed, it'd be unplayable against you
Well the problem is once the classic gets buffed, it'd be unplayable against you
BLoodSireSo what that it's a good sniper map? That might make it a bit more interesting if a team with a sniper like Flippy had a Yukon as an option to pick in bo3's. A criticism of 6's is how we isolated the other classes; and a criticism of this statement is that cookie cutter classes are actually just the best. Mostly true, but a lot of people forget the map pool has been pruned and fabricated (literally: see pro_viaduct) to suit what is best for the traditional class lineup. Take a look at i55. Even the most mundane head-shot creates so much hype on stream. It's a shame we gravitated away from maps that let other classes shine.
Sincerely,
- Totally not a Sniper main
A sniper can already have massive impact, enough that nR was running sniper to mid in some situations. Make the maps even better for sniper to the point where sniper can be run full time and be even more effective and the game slows to a crawl. If you've ever watched a highlander match, it's really not that exciting for two teams to sit back, buff their sniper, and hope that he wins the svs duel.
[quote=BLoodSire]So what that it's a good sniper map? That might make it a bit more interesting if a team with a sniper like Flippy had a Yukon as an option to pick in bo3's. A criticism of 6's is how we isolated the other classes; and a criticism of this statement is that cookie cutter classes are actually just the best. Mostly true, but a lot of people forget the map pool has been pruned and fabricated (literally: see pro_viaduct) to suit what is best for the traditional class lineup. Take a look at i55. Even the most mundane head-shot creates so much hype on stream. It's a shame we gravitated away from maps that let other classes shine.
Sincerely,
- Totally not a Sniper main[/quote]
A sniper can already have massive impact, enough that nR was running sniper to mid in some situations. Make the maps even better for sniper to the point where sniper can be run full time and be even more effective and the game slows to a crawl. If you've ever watched a highlander match, it's really not that exciting for two teams to sit back, buff their sniper, and hope that he wins the svs duel.
Sincerely,
- Totally not a Sniper main[/quote]
A sniper can already have massive impact, enough that nR was running sniper to mid in some situations. Make the maps even better for sniper to the point where sniper can be run full time and be even more effective and the game slows to a crawl. If you've ever watched a highlander match, it's really not that exciting for two teams to sit back, buff their sniper, and hope that he wins the svs duel.
saamA sniper can already have massive impact, enough that nR was running sniper to mid in some situations. Make the maps even better for sniper to the point where sniper can be run full time and be even more effective and the game slows to a crawl. If you've ever watched a highlander match, it's really not that exciting for two teams to sit back, buff their sniper, and hope that he wins the svs duel.
I disagree that the game slows to a crawl. Snipers do not make that happen. I think that is associated with sniper because we are used to seeing it in either 9v9 where the game is a crawl to begin with (and the sniper v sniper actually lends a layer of dynamism, helping to break that crawl), or we see it during stalemates in 6v6, usually on last, where the game is already on a crawl and a sniper is needed to "uncrawl" it. It has been my experience that in 6v6 a team speeds up their play to pressure the sniper. If they cannot, they'll counter snipe; and it has also been my experience that sniper v sniper is always a hype-able event when it shows up on stream. Headshots are sexy—lauded over in all FPS games that have them—and in comp TF2 we've gone to measures to make sure the maps where they happen most go to the waste-bin.
It's not like Yukon demanded a sniper. It worked perfectly well as a cookie cutter map. But there was just room for sniping to have a sizable impact in the hands of the right player. When it did, it forced teams to reconcile that impact, not wait for the odds of map's style to bail them out. Process is the last map with real room for sniping. I don't think people realize that process is probably just as good a sniper map, with better sight-lines spread out over the map. Process just has a more favorable mid, and I think the sniper "issue" gets rolled into people's general distaste of other aspects of the map.
[quote=saam]
A sniper can already have massive impact, enough that nR was running sniper to mid in some situations. Make the maps even better for sniper to the point where sniper can be run full time and be even more effective and the game slows to a crawl. If you've ever watched a highlander match, it's really not that exciting for two teams to sit back, buff their sniper, and hope that he wins the svs duel.[/quote]
I disagree that the game slows to a crawl. Snipers do not make that happen. I think that is associated with sniper because we are used to seeing it in either 9v9 where the game is a crawl to begin with (and the sniper v sniper actually lends a layer of dynamism, helping to break that crawl), or we see it during stalemates in 6v6, usually on last, where the game is already on a crawl and a sniper is needed to "uncrawl" it. It has been my experience that in 6v6 a team speeds up their play to pressure the sniper. If they cannot, they'll counter snipe; and it has also been my experience that sniper v sniper is always a hype-able event when it shows up on stream. Headshots are sexy—lauded over in all FPS games that have them—and in comp TF2 we've gone to measures to make sure the maps where they happen most go to the waste-bin.
It's not like Yukon demanded a sniper. It worked perfectly well as a cookie cutter map. But there was just room for sniping to have a sizable impact in the hands of the right player. When it did, it forced teams to reconcile that impact, not wait for the odds of map's style to bail them out. Process is the last map with real room for sniping. I don't think people realize that process is probably just as good a sniper map, with better sight-lines spread out over the map. Process just has a more favorable mid, and I think the sniper "issue" gets rolled into people's general distaste of other aspects of the map.
A sniper can already have massive impact, enough that nR was running sniper to mid in some situations. Make the maps even better for sniper to the point where sniper can be run full time and be even more effective and the game slows to a crawl. If you've ever watched a highlander match, it's really not that exciting for two teams to sit back, buff their sniper, and hope that he wins the svs duel.[/quote]
I disagree that the game slows to a crawl. Snipers do not make that happen. I think that is associated with sniper because we are used to seeing it in either 9v9 where the game is a crawl to begin with (and the sniper v sniper actually lends a layer of dynamism, helping to break that crawl), or we see it during stalemates in 6v6, usually on last, where the game is already on a crawl and a sniper is needed to "uncrawl" it. It has been my experience that in 6v6 a team speeds up their play to pressure the sniper. If they cannot, they'll counter snipe; and it has also been my experience that sniper v sniper is always a hype-able event when it shows up on stream. Headshots are sexy—lauded over in all FPS games that have them—and in comp TF2 we've gone to measures to make sure the maps where they happen most go to the waste-bin.
It's not like Yukon demanded a sniper. It worked perfectly well as a cookie cutter map. But there was just room for sniping to have a sizable impact in the hands of the right player. When it did, it forced teams to reconcile that impact, not wait for the odds of map's style to bail them out. Process is the last map with real room for sniping. I don't think people realize that process is probably just as good a sniper map, with better sight-lines spread out over the map. Process just has a more favorable mid, and I think the sniper "issue" gets rolled into people's general distaste of other aspects of the map.
I feel like the corridors in yukon are wayyyyyyy too long for a comp map.
I feel like the corridors in yukon are wayyyyyyy too long for a comp map.
sorsaI feel like the corridors in yukon are wayyyyyyy too long for a comp map.
i agree with this. i feel like the two main chokes from second to mid could have a bit chopped off, and maybe also the upper side entrance of yukon last.
[quote=sorsa]I feel like the corridors in yukon are wayyyyyyy too long for a comp map.[/quote]
i agree with this. i feel like the two main chokes from second to mid could have a bit chopped off, and maybe also the upper side entrance of yukon last.
i agree with this. i feel like the two main chokes from second to mid could have a bit chopped off, and maybe also the upper side entrance of yukon last.
sorsaI feel like the corridors in yukon are wayyyyyyy too long for a comp map.
Agreed. The entrances into last are also pretty weird. There's only one main door that isn't far out of the way, and it's a shutter. The far left entrance (from the POV of pushing from second to last) needs to be a little closer to lobby, and lobby needs to be larger in general. Think of Gullywash's lobby.
I think reworking the connections between each point would be enough to give the map some variety. I'll look into some specific suggestions when I get the chance.
[quote=sorsa]I feel like the corridors in yukon are wayyyyyyy too long for a comp map.[/quote]
Agreed. The entrances into last are also pretty weird. There's only one main door that isn't far out of the way, and it's a shutter. The far left entrance (from the POV of pushing from second to last) needs to be a little closer to lobby, and lobby needs to be larger in general. Think of Gullywash's lobby.
I think reworking the connections between each point would be enough to give the map some variety. I'll look into some specific suggestions when I get the chance.
Agreed. The entrances into last are also pretty weird. There's only one main door that isn't far out of the way, and it's a shutter. The far left entrance (from the POV of pushing from second to last) needs to be a little closer to lobby, and lobby needs to be larger in general. Think of Gullywash's lobby.
I think reworking the connections between each point would be enough to give the map some variety. I'll look into some specific suggestions when I get the chance.
Although as I said earlier I like the current version of Yukon, I can see why others wouldn't.
I feel like if there was a pro version the shack overtop of cp 2 should be removed, as should the large rock structure the blocks the sightline from lower entrance.
I think the longer corridors are fine as they present you the option of taking a longer (but less visible and potentially safer route) or taking the shorter but easier to spam out route. (that is if we are talking about the corridors connecting mid to second.
When pushing from left side to last, it should probably be a bit closer, or at least have a top mid/left exit on the left so you can get to the point without running against the heavy minigun gauntlet.
Although as I said earlier I like the current version of Yukon, I can see why others wouldn't.
I feel like if there was a pro version the shack overtop of cp 2 should be removed, as should the large rock structure the blocks the sightline from lower entrance.
I think the longer corridors are fine as they present you the option of taking a longer (but less visible and potentially safer route) or taking the shorter but easier to spam out route. (that is if we are talking about the corridors connecting mid to second.
When pushing from left side to last, it should probably be a bit closer, or at least have a top mid/left exit on the left so you can get to the point without running against the heavy minigun gauntlet.
I feel like if there was a pro version the shack overtop of cp 2 should be removed, as should the large rock structure the blocks the sightline from lower entrance.
I think the longer corridors are fine as they present you the option of taking a longer (but less visible and potentially safer route) or taking the shorter but easier to spam out route. (that is if we are talking about the corridors connecting mid to second.
When pushing from left side to last, it should probably be a bit closer, or at least have a top mid/left exit on the left so you can get to the point without running against the heavy minigun gauntlet.
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